Pilot Takes-off Without Permission at Major Airport

Pilots misunderstands controller and takes off without permission from Atlanta International Airport.
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[@jplayzow]

"This is Atlanta, get it together" from the man who just told them the wrong way to get to where they need to go twice

[@guntherberger596]

I would say that's not standard ICAO phraseology.

[@topethermohenes7658]

Maybe he's saying that to himself 😂

[@fotoblanco]

me? I would have shut down one engine and requested progressive taxi. That was uncalled for.

[@goldenageofdinosaurs7192]

@@topethermohenes7658Y’know, after hearing it that last time, I did kinda get the feeling that, while he was directed his frustration at them, he very well may have been meaning it towards himself.

[@sharpfang]

At that point I'd probably start asking what about turn right on Bravo, should we cross the runway?

[@ChrisLindsley]

"Atlanta Tower, please call yourself. Possible controller deviation"

[@MsCellobass]

😂😂😂😂

[@feynthefallen]

I love that line: "It's ok. N5173S, possible pilot deviation". That's like when the mafia boss says, "I understand, Luigi, it was just a little mistake. Now step into the wet concrete please"

[@MatthewMS.]

Poison ivy can be so itchy

[@massey4business]

😂😂 Couple of slaps on the cheek.

[@frankfielder]

That's a good one!

[@wizzardofpaws2420]

ROTFL!

[@daCubanaqt]

Gold, pure gold I tell ya. 😂

[@jmagner]

I have encountered a few snarky controllers over the years as a GA pilot and, yeah, you WANT to tell them to get bent, but escalating the situation is never going to help anything. One thing I absolutely hate is when the controller starts barking out local jargon and landmarks to pilots who aren't from the area. Coming into Westchester, NY a few years ago, they were all horrible about that. I had one controller tell me, as I was setting up for a different approach than I had been planning, to "Put the Verazzano Bridge under your left wing." WTF? From 4000 feet you can see ALL of the bridges leading into Manhattan and I had no idea which ones I was looking at. So I replied, "I can't read the road signs from here. Can you give me a heading and an altitude?"

[@benconway9010]

And what did he say??

[@jmagner]

@@benconway9010 I don't recall now, but I'm sure he gave me a heading and an altitude. I'm also sure that he called me a d**k with the mic off.

[@JPdexx]

"I can't read the road signs from here. Can you give me a heading and an altitude?" 🤣. 10/10 witty response

[@alexc9434]

Excuse me?! Don’t you know the world revolves around New Yorkers?! They are a gift from god and are much more important than any of us so that’s why you should know all the land marks of that shithole of a city lol. I hate going there

[@michaelmcmanus5196]

For future reference, true VZ Bridge is the real big one that connects SI and Brooklyn. I hate when they think ya know the local area, landmarks and the airport.

[@dmalcolm24]

In 20 years of flying, I only had 3 snotty controllers. 2 of them were in Atlanta airspace.

[@roderickcampbell2105]

Hi dma. Are you talking about GA or commercial?

[@dmalcolm24]

@@roderickcampbell2105 GA. Yes I know GA is more apt to mis-hear instructions. But I was a CFI at the time and more used to hearing and complying. Neither pilots nor controllers are perfect and a hostile flight environment helps nobody.

[@roderickcampbell2105]

@@dmalcolm24 Hi Daniel. Thanks for the note. It certainly rings true. We all make mistakes. And hostile environments should be avoided where possible. If someone is having a bad day it's good to not make it someone else's bad day. I wish you blue and safe skies.

[@chrisstromberg6527]

25+ years of part 121 flying, and this if by far my least favorite airport to deal with!

[@sizzelot]

When you experience a rude controller just tell em dont be bitter reconsider.

[@kenbrown2808]

the pilot in the second would have been well justified to say "we were waiting for clearance to cross the runway back to bravo where you told us to go."

[@bertblankenstein3738]

And then add "get it together"?

[@txgho634]

Do you need more time with the BIG letters?

[@kenbrown2808]

@@txgho634 no, do you?

[@Vinemaple]

Jerks like that controller, you don't reason with them or snark at them. You'll always regret it even if you "win," and you're more likely to dig yourself into a deep hole full of biosolids. I would have just completely ignored that comment and just gone 100% professional and minimal talk on him, if I couldn't continue being nice like that lovely saint of a pilot! Every once in a blue moon, I guess, being forced all your life to be nice to horrible people does pay off.

[@kenbrown2808]

@@Vinemaple that is true. the lesson in that is "sometimes the justified response is not the prudent response." and "consider what your goals are in choosing your response."

[@Parawingdelta2]

My father was an air traffic controller in the Royal Air Force. I've been to work with him on several occasions and there have been times when he's made me aware of a pilot doing something they shouldn't do, or not doing something they should. Bearing in mind these are highly trained professional pilots familiar with the environment (sometimes a mix of military and civilian). On no occasion did I hear my father correct someone in that manner.

[@JimMork]

Monitor a video of pilots communicating with Amsterdam controllers. Very smooth and calm. Could be a cultural difference between USA and Netherlands. We sort of know FAA is pretty chaotic sometimes, as when they agreed that Boeing should take over FAA work with the 737 MAX. Would such a thing happen in other countries (not counting Indonesia where regulators sleep on the job seemingly)

[@JimMork]

That may seem a slam, but Indonesia WAS banned from European airspace for some years.

[@deang5622]

Go listen to other US ATC audio recordings. It's a cultural difference, arrogance and consequential rudeness on the part of US ATC.

[@JimMork]

@@deang5622 Anyone who watched how Trump treated national leaders will understand JUST how cultural that is. We have our best side and our worst side. In the control towers I bet you can find both. The smooth movement of traffic happens no matter what the style of the controller is. But there's more stress in some cases. I love working environments where respect is assumed.

[@alisonwilson9749]

My father was an RAF controller too when doing NS- I don't think I ever heard him being so rude to anyone in any circumstances, never mind when working as a controller! I do wonder if the controller here would have been as rude to a male pilot....

[@Treadstone7]

Roughly one year after getting my license, I was doing some mountain flying with an instructor, during which we went to Innsbruck Airport (LOWI). As we were about to depart, we lined up with the runway, when my FI told me "alright, go on, full power". I quickly refused and reminded him that we were only cleared to line up and wait, what must have slipped past his attention. A few seconds later, we got takeoff clearance and everything was fine. This reminds me everday that even experienced pilots make mistakes and that you shouldn't hesitate to speak up if you think something is wrong. In hindsight I think it was a lucky coincidence that I already had my license because I think if this would have been a flight student, he/she may have taken off without clearance since FIs still represent a certain figure of authority.

[@aviation_nut]

Early on as a student I definitely would have deferred to the FI thinking I must've missed the radio call. I'm close to my checkride now, and I certainly would've doublechecked. At my flight school there's an expectation that if you're capable of solo you are encouraged to even challenge the instructor if you yourself are unsure of something. It's not enough that the FI ever gets a clearance, the student needs to know that too. You're not only training to be a mere pilot, but you're training to be PIC. Otherwise you'll be unprepared when you ARE solo/PIC and you do need to pay attention without the benefit of a pilot next to you. And they select instructions who are capable of putting their ego aside and accept a student who needs to be sure of their instructions, no matter who was right or wrong.

[@sorbabaric1]

Reminds me of the story my high school driving instructor told me about why he always prefaced his instructions with something like “at the stop sign coming up, after you stop . . . “ or “at the next intersection you’re going to turn right”. He told a nervous student driver once “ turn right at the next intersection “. But he never got past the “turn right . . . “ and she did, unfortunately before reaching the intersection. So yes, it could happen.

[@Dr.Rabbit7346]

Are you talking about cement shoes?

[@hsbvt]

I knew that the first pilot took responsibility when he asked THEM for the phone number! I'm hoping the 2nd controller got a talking to at the end of the shift. Have a great week everyone!

[@kenbrown2808]

"possible controller deviation, prepare to copy a phone number"

[@DaWolf805]

I was jumpseating (I'm a dispatcher) on a flight to a small airport that gets almost no flights, the only other traffic was general aviation, the controller wasn't speaking super fast, and the FO copying the clearance still copied the wrong taxiway. Both I and the captain spoke up, and he got back on the radio and clarified. Then the captain gave some advice on how he copies clearances to help out the FO in the future. It happens and I feel like controllers sometimes get this idea that it's because pilots aren't taking them seriously - that it's not just an innocent mistake. But nothing could be further from the truth. That's why it's super important for us as dispatchers and for controllers as well to spend some time in that cockpit. I like that dispatchers are required to spend 5 hours a year jumpseating, and I wish controllers had that same requirement we do. I think it would help a lot.

[@brutusbarnabus8098]

What does a dispatcher do compared to a controller?

[@kellybell2770]

That one controller who loves planes but terrified to fly 😅

[@cybersoul3371]

​@@brutusbarnabus8098They work for the airline. They assign flights, and are a sort of contact on the ground for the flight crew

[@DaWolf805]

@@brutusbarnabus8098 We make flight plans, plan the fuel loads, and monitor the flights in progress and help them through any issues they might encounter like weather, turbulence, or traffic delays. We're also a link between the pilots and the company; whenever pilots say on the radio they need to "call company", it's us they're calling.

[@t3hb0ss]

this is a really good point! 5 hours even seems a little low!

[@missionpilot9291]

I remember my first trips up to the northeast. I actually told a couple of controllers: “I’m new to this area up here. If you will talk a little slower I can put this airplane where you need it a lot faster”. I was fortunate enough to have had controllers smart enough to understand what I had told them.

[@TheActualJae]

Remember, the vast majority of controllers are regular people who understand that folks may make mistakes (including themselves) so they'd never have this kind of attitude. That's why these incidents stand out so much. So what you experience is the norm. What this pilot experienced was down to a ton of bad luck happening all at once :|

[@FreeAmerican-mm2my]

I do the same thing when I am outside the South. If you have a good attitude, they usually work with you.

[@1971merlin]

In Australia, the words take off are reserved for the specific permission to do so or cancelling such permission. The words are never spoken in any other context. Hence one is trained to listen for that specific phrase before taking off. This saves confusion as well as training minds to respond to the words specifically.

[@johnstudd4245]

From what I have heard that is supposed to be the case in the US also, or at least very similar. "Cleared for takeoff" is the one and only phrase, or words that let you start the roll. And if not stated exactly like that, you don't move.

[@selfification]

@@johnstudd4245 It is internationally. It came out of the Tenerif incident with KLM and PanAm crashing because the pilots confused "ATC takeoff clearance" with "clear for takeoff". Internationally you use 'departure' unless it's for actuall takeoff clearance. Same for 'arrival' vs. 'land'.

[@johnstudd4245]

@@selfification Yes I was aware of that. I have read several books on that disaster.

[@r4raced4doom2]

It's a global standard. Google ICAO if you have nothing better to do. Only real difference between Aus and US is you guys use QnH instead of inHG for altimeter settings.

[@null5909]

@@r4raced4doom2too add to that you should probably read FAA for American regulation and CASA regulations

[@godarklight]

Seems like the controller didn't quite have it together.

[@user-pf5xq3lq8i]

"Possible controller projection.." 😂

[@d.whitman7455]

Often wrong, but never uncertain...

[@necrobabe6190]

Kelsey: "hopefully you're watching this on something bigger than a small phone." Me on a small phone: 👀

[@skepticalobserver7484]

Kudos to ATC for giving him a heading and making sure he was safe before talking about the deviation.

[@Vtarngpb]

As a former Infantry/Armor NCO, I firmly believe in cross-training. That level of experience is sorely under-represented in the private world!

[@BeefPanda]

As a former E4 I couldn't agree more, someone else should definitely be able to do my job instead of me.

[@Maggie-tr2kd]

It takes a big man to admit he is wrong. It would be very nice if the controller contacted the pilot in the second incident and admitted there was an error in his instructions, acknowledged the pilot was only trying to follow the controller's directions as given, and that he regrets his unwarranted comment.

[@christopherg2347]

There is a reporting system for this stuff. Like the number you have to call for pilot deviation. So we know who needs more training.

[@E190Driver5]

Yep

[@MikeNie1]

@@christopherg2347 I'm fairly certain someone at Atlanta will see this video and recognize the voice. I think the controller will hear about it if they haven't already.

[@jwenting]

@@christopherg2347 and I'm sure that the powers that be are going to not bother reprimanding an out of line controller, as controllers are far harder to replace than pilots.

[@christopherg2347]

@@jwenting A controler that is out of control is a liability waiting to happen.

[@justanotherupscaspirant8837]

I love how passionate you were about the 2nd controller. I guess you're more critical of pilots because you are one and you can judge them better, and i respect your impartiality. But yeah the 2nd guy's attitude was completely uncalled for, a bit of mutual respect is necessary for every job. I shudder to think what his reaction is when somebody actually messes up.

[@JimMork]

Being at America's busiest airport is the root. The rest is a chain determined by the original mistake. I suppose it is like Prince Andrew who stayed at Jeffrey Epstein's because "it was convenient". Where ya at now, Andrew?

[@elbuggo]

He sounded to me like an Affirmative Action ATC!

[@autoteleology]

@@elbuggo We can easily see your post history on mobile and I think I speak for the vast majority of commenters here when I tell you that your smug, irrelevant political commentary is not welcome here

[@EnzoFerenczyo]

@@autoteleology I echo that

[@EnzoFerenczyo]

@@autoteleology Not a time for division

[@lorinkramer5805]

The cure for an ATC with this attitude is not going and flying with a crew for a week, but flying a mop for a week. That has an amazing way of sweetening up a person’s attitude.

[@keithbrown9198]

Retired controller... I used to ride the jump seat all the time prior to 9/11. After that they made FAM Flights (Familiarization Training) so difficult it wasn't worth it, but I had an advantage being former USAF aircrew and a private pilot anyway. I worked with a lot of controllers that had no prior aviation experience, some of them were actually good... some not so much.

[@peterdurand3098]

Back in the late 1980s I was flying a 767 into Chicago. Landed at night and then were confronted with a sea of blue taxi lights. The captain told me to tell ground that we were unfamiliar with the airport. We were very well taken care of for the taxi in.

[@marlinweekley51]

Once parked the pilot should have called tower “possible tower deviation, tell me when your ready to copy the phone number.”.

[@neilkurzman4907]

They don’t need the controller to call them to file a report. Occasionally you hear the pilot say I’m going to file a report to the controller. They don’t need to speak to them on the phone to do it.

[@so4real]

I sure hope there was some sort of reprimand for the controller on that last one. I drive commercial busses and we also deal with dispatch. They need to realize the amount of safety that goes into the operation of a vehicle or aircraft with passengers. Always keep a level of respect.

[@glenmel78]

After the controller said "get it together" the pilot sould have come back and said "thanks tower that really helped"

[@eltfell]

Let us remember a pilot thinking to have recieved a take-off permission at Tenerife Airport in 1977 with much more profound effects.

[@lisanadinebaker5179]

@eltfell - that pilot had "gethomeitis". He was running up his engines and attempting to depart even before the "confusing" ATC transmission. His FO stopped him from taking off the the first time, but he was committed the second.

[@challenger2ultralightadventure]

I was shocked at what that Atlanta controller said! He should be reprimanded for it!

[@alljets4]

As a former law enforcement officer, I see many similarities in your field. I used the rule that " its not what you say its how you say it" that keeps you grounded and professional. Controller had attitude and needs to be set in place by his management.

[@deltalima5649]

The Flight Deck Training program for controllers was suspended during the pandemic and hasn’t come back yet, though there are rumors that it might return in the near- to mid- future. It’s an invaluable thing for controllers and I learned something every time I did it. On the other side of the coin however, I wish pilots would come plug in with us and see what ATC is doing. That being said, if you’re ever flying the 74 into Minneapolis and want to set up a tour let me know. I’d be happy to arrange something.

[@Kefuddle]

You can't choose your mistakes. You can only alter the odds. Regarding Atlanta, as Captain in the UK, I understood exactly the same as you. Stay on freq and make your own way to the ramp. However, I would have taken the most direct route tbh, but that is not the clearance and the controller should own that one. When I have experienced such things, I just follow the instructions, get the phone number, call up the centre and try and speak to the controller to figure out if I messed up or there was some other confusion.

[@victoriaedwards1220]

A mandated scheme whereby part of ATC training and Pilot training is that you both share experiences. This would certainly give each other perspective and understanding. I can't see either communities saying "no" to such an opportunity

[@HiddenWindshield]

The school I got my license from had a policy where every student would tour the local airport's ATC facilities. We got a short class on how it works, then we watched over the radar controller's shoulder for a while, then we went up to the tower and watched them for a while.

[@FlyingDarkLord]

I agree, it should be mandatory for both parties 👍🏼

[@EnzoFerenczyo]

@@HiddenWindshield Not enough

[@lgarcia67]

“You are in Atlanta now…” wow the egos. I don’t understand why some of these guys are very rude. New York is notorious for having these individuals

[@senseofstile]

I agree. It's called empathy.

[@JonGreen_UK]

Time to bat it back. "Controller, please pull the tapes. We'll discuss this when we've parked."

[@blackmagemasher4031]

I am sure that pilot was cursing to himself, but he handled himself very well

[@CEMBerthoud]

Props to the first Controller for his clear, concise, and even cadence. Those JFK Controllers could learn a thing or two from this guy.

[@kkjjqrysdgadff7782]

Ironically the first controller almost certainly got the brunt of the blame for the deviation. They failed to catch the pilot's incorrect read back, and it is 100% their job to do so. So while the pilot screwed up, the controller failed at the fundamental aspect of their job. While they were polite and clear, they put other planes in jeopardy.

[@neilkurzman4907]

@@kkjjqrysdgadff7782 The ATC never said clear for takeoff. The guy took off he didn’t go past the runway. He didn’t say clear for takeoff. No one said, cleared for takeoff. Which means nobody was clear to take off.

[@davidbehrend7054]

You mentioned that it would be good for ATC controllers to spend some time in the cockpit periodically. As a retired public safety (Fire / EMS / Police) I felt the same way about responders spending time in dispatch, to see what goes on in a center. In larger areas, a dispatcher is often dealing with several situations, where the responders are dealing with one. Maybe that will reduce some of the “snippyness” coming across the radio. It should also be required for dispatchers to ride with the responders periodically too. My point is that it should be required for controllers to get some flight time in the cockpit, especially at unfamiliar airports, to see what the pilots have to deal with. However, it would probably be good for pilots to spend time in the various ATC facilities (ground, tower, approach, regional, etc), to get a feeling for what they deal with.

[@jheysen1]

For a moment I wished the pilots could do a “possible controller deviation, call flight deck at xxx…”

[@neilkurzman4907]

They don’t need a callback number to report the air traffic controller. They simply need to file a report.

[@thewholeroll]

"Possible controller deviation. Please advise when ready to note down my cell to call once I'm at the gate."

[@SethBlackMedia]

You have some of the most informative aviation videos on KZbin, and it was one of the things that helped me conquer my fear of flying at the age of 42 just a couple weeks ago. My boss approached me several weeks ago about us needing to travel out of state to do some work for a client. I told him how deathly afraid I was to fly. He was totally cool with it and said he could go alone if I was too scared to fly. I told him I couldn’t do that to him and that I needed to face my fear, but might have a hard time focusing on work when we got to our destination. When I told him that, he offered me the chance to fly anywhere in the country just for the experience and make a fun day of it. So we flew from DFW to Vegas, ate lunch, and then he surprised me with getting to drive a brand new Lamborghini Huracan STO that afternoon as a reward for overcoming my fear. It made for one awesome experience I’ll never forget.

[@ltraina3353]

Wow, is your boss always that cool? That is so awesome!

[@johnchristmas7522]

Christ, thats a boss in a million, not many around like that.

[@SethBlackMedia]

@@ltraina3353 he’s seriously the best person I’ve ever worked for, not because of this trip, but because on a daily basis he shows how much he values me and the rest of my coworkers. It’s a privilege to work for him.

[@mrmisterno1]

Ah yes, that type of controller who gets upset with you because of his own mistake. Classic. Then when you point out his mistake he gets even angrier and denies it like a little child.

[@geoffquickfall]

Before the days of mobile GPS displays, or even hand helds on the flight deck, I flew into Chicago as an FO for the first time. I prepped before hand, reading charts, getting notes on which runway we would PROBABLY land on, taxiway names to the gate and etc. The aircraft was a 737-200 and it was my leg in from Vancouver. So lots of time to talk to the Captain about the airport and what to expect. Of course, what to expect and what we got were two very different things. On the 737-200, even with it being the FO’s leg; after touchdown and at 60 knots control is passed to the Captain. He has the tiller, the FO did not. There are other reasons but not relevant to this story. As we decelerated out of 60 Knots and the Captain took control, he told me to have a pen and paper ready for the multiple ground and ramp frequencies plus taxiway and turn directions and that they would be coming fast and furious. I told him that I had it under control. Tower switched us over to ground at which point I called: “Chicago ground, Canadian 101 for gate 002, AND WE ARE NEW HERE”. I used a friendly tone and here was the answer: “Roger Canadian 101, welcome to Chicago, follow the United 767 in front of you. I will tell you when to turn into the gate.” The moral of the story is: sometimes it requires a statement to slow down a controller who thinks you know the airport as well as he does. As you stated, we go to multiple airports in a month, all with different procedures and controllers. They only have to worry about one. On a side note, arrival was also multiple altitudes, headings and frequencies in one transmit. At one point the Captain (my leg so he ran the radio) answered after a very complex series of instructions; “could you please repeat everything after the word ‘washing-machine’. The controller chuckled and broke the instructions into simple statements; and then apologized.” I call it Chicago-ese and to a pilot who’s first language is not english, and is arriving for the first time to an unfamiliar airport, all the prep in the world will not cover what ultimately happens. This is a very dynamic industry and arrivals change, runways change, clearances not adhered to, instructions not listened to or misinterpreted. All this must be accommodated and to add machine gun speech (Chicago-ese) does not help. Cheers, Geoff Quickfall BSc, MSc, PhD candidate with 28,000hrs; DC10, B737, B757, B767, B777, B787, DHC2, DHC3, B18 (retired 😊) I kept a small binder 5 by 8 inches. In it was each airport I flew into. It had labels on which frequencies to expect from gate to tower, typical departures and arrivals, and personal notes about what really happens. The notes grew for each arrival and departure that deviated from the expected. I would refer to these as the information in them was not covered by the Jepp’s.

[@FamilyManMoving]

That's a great comment. So good that I am surprised you still don't have your PhD at 28,000 hours. Even with in-state credit hour tuition discounts...that's gotta get expensive. ;)

[@geoffquickfall]

@@FamilyManMoving Started the PhD at 63 (retired at 65 this January). A continuation of the Masters that I got in 1987. All to do with climate. Wife always wanted to be married to a doctor of something :-) The PhD is fully funded with a grant to do the research. Cheers. (Edited due to bad syntax).

[@FamilyManMoving]

@@geoffquickfall Awesome. I hope you realize I was just messing with you. It's great you are chasing the goal. I'm probably going to end up doing something similar, though in my case it'll be law. Had a few lawyer friends tell me to go that way, and said I'd be the worst kind of lawyer: one who will argue a case because it's important to him, rather than profitable. They said they hate going against those guys. It'll keep the brain moving, at least...

[@geoffquickfall]

@@FamilyManMoving that’s the point, keep the brain moving. Retirement doesn’t have to end a career. I loved flying, the challenge (no day is the same), the crews and the destinations but 45 years in aviation (35 airline, 10 in the north of Canada) is enough. Using the brain in research is a different thing, not better but rather, different. Best of luck, Geoff.

[@gregorykusiak5424]

The “we’re new here” - can it be followed with a request for a progressive taxi so that everybody is just a bit more mindful and attentive and thankful that the chances of mistakes get knocked down a notch?

[@isaach1447]

Wow! He took off from the worlds busiest airport without clearance, and it wasn’t a big deal!?! …that’s lucky!

[@rilmar2137]

Being humble and owning up to your mistakes goes a long way

[@AutoReport1]

Taking off without clearance at a busy airport, could easily be a disaster. He was lucky. The worst disaster in aviation happened that way.

[@TheSjuris]

Passenger wise yes, airplane wise no.

[@JimMork]

Bizarre subjecting oneself to the rigamarole of that kind of airport. Where I live we have several satellite airports that are exclusively GA. I think the pilot schools locate there to just keep away from Bravo airspace.

[@TheSjuris]

@@JimMork surprised that Hartsfield still allows GA, ORD removed them decades ago.

[@johnmorris7815]

Our DC9’s used to have a blind spot at the holding area for LHR 09R, we would routinely tune box two which had an upper aerial to avoid that “why is nobody talking to us” feeling.

[@n0jy]

Regarding controllers riding with the crew on the flight deck, I think that is a very good thing. As a retired former train dispatcher, we were required to ride the locomotive of trains across our territory now and then for familiarization. There was no better experience as far as understanding who (train and crew) you are controlling. What they see and how they have to operate are no more than in the imagination of a dispatcher who has not seen the missing part of their "big 360". Meeting the crews face-to-face is also a very positive addition to what are all part of CRM, which is really more than just the cab of the locomotive. Working together in all aspects is CRM Plus (if you will) and adds that much more to the bottom line, safety.

[@suem6004]

I think it goes both ways. I think pilots get tunnel vision and should sit in the tower for a while to see the entire chess board.

[@charlesk1140]

Kelsey YOUR AWESOME MAN!!! I have had a deathly fear of flying and im 49 yrs old. After watching EVERY SINGLE ONE of your videos I will be flying round trip with my mother next month from NC to Seattle. Thanks for EVERYTHING you do. If not for you, I WOULD NOT be doing this. If I was younger I would actually consider flight school. Keep it up man!!! I

[@rachellofthouse549]

That’s amazing, congrats on conquering your fear 🥳

[@HalfShelli]

Way to go, Charles! Have an awesome trip!

[@kernicterus1233]

*You're*

[@billjensen401]

I too hated flying in the beginning but as I had to fly for work I became quite fond of it, especially take offs feeling the power of the engines. I hope you will begin to enjoy flying soon as well!

[@JimMork]

I'm fed up with everything about commercial aviation. Got over FEAR in 1965. But the whole aviation complex is full of bad decisions over and over. It is incurable. And the many aviation channels just reinforce how bad it is. This reminds me of a government job I had once. The hiring process is bad, so everything after that is bad, at least where I worked.

[@thatjpwing]

I completely agree with you about the Atlanta controller. That was just unnecessary; hat tip to the folks on the Skywest flight that just said, “sorry”, because “yeah, I can tell by the southern hospitality” might have been my response. Also, this is the first time I’ve heard “on the upper antenna”, good little educational nugget there. Thank you.

[@-Master_Of_Disaster]

I'm learning so much about aviation on this channel. Especially about proper communication and how to handle / understand all the stuff in reality not just theoretically. Thanks Kelsey!

[@Steevscool]

Southern hospitality is rarely found in big southern cities. Anytime you get too many people bunched up together too close, common courtesy goes out the window.

[@suegardner]

That second controller- if he spoke to me like that, I probably would have cried! I'm definitely not cut-out to be a pilot 😂

[@chrisstromberg6527]

You get used to it, don't let the controllers discourage you from becoming a pilot!

[@auburn886]

At ATL, 8L is usually used for landings and 8R is used for takeoffs. The runway closest to the concourses is used for takeoffs. 10/28 is used for both. HOWEVER, they may give clearance for ANYTHING on any runway. The pilot of 713S and the controller get kudos for having a good attitude.

[@waynee6042]

I know pilots should ask for the instructions again if they are unclear but for all of the reasons you mentioned in this video I have always wondered why controllers need to speak so quickly. I also like your idea of getting them into the cockpit for a week to get the full perspective from the other side. In fact, it should be a mandatory part of their training. After all, everyone SHOULD be doing their part to making the skies as safe as possible.

[@joshuarosen6242]

They speak so quickly (at a big airport like Atlanta anyway) because they do it all the time and most of the time they are talking to experienced pilots who are completely used to it. They are professionals doing what they do and they don't want to waste any time.

[@softy8088]

@@joshuarosen6242 You end up wasting more time if your instructions aren't copied correctly and you need to repeat yourself.

[@joshuarosen6242]

@@softy8088 That rarely happens with professional pilots. If they only deal with GA traffic once in a thousand landings they will just assume what they normally do will work fine because it normally does.

[@PowerScissor]

Most pilots familiar with the area for the most part know what they're about to hear, or they have an idea between 2 or 3 different instructions they might receive. It sounds fast to those not familiar with the words used and their meaning. You could probably speed it up 2x and the pilots that fly the area often would have no problem understanding. It's insane to me there's still people involved, communicating over walkie-talkie level sound systems using spoken words at all. ..but that's where we're at.

[@utrock5067]

So much instruction provided by ATC, reminded me of you talking about how pilots deal with it. My brain turned off in half of first message.

[@PYROof404]

Pilots should have a number to give to shitty controllers with the announcement "possible controller deviation"

[@cnaarndt]

Love the channel! Now three years retired, former USMC Aviator [13 yrs.], corporate pilot - GIVs [9 yrs.] and AA 777 International [21 yrs.]. Reminds me that I'm not missing anything. Worst controllers, Philadelphia ramp and ground... Years ago, I was a 40 something salty MD-80 FO. We were given clearance from ramp control... "LT on X taxiway, hold at spot 8 and MONITOR ground." which I read back verbatim. After several minutes waiting at spot 8 and monitoring ground frequency the controller comes up in a condescending tone and says... "Hey American XXX, do you ever plan on contacting ground?" To which my immediate reply was... "No sir, because I know exactly what go to spot 8 and monitor ground means." We were ORD based which should tell you enough. Silence from ground for several seconds then a matter-of-fact taxi clearance. The captain chuckled, put his head in his hand and muttered... "Marines".

[@WWPlaysHoldem]

Ramp control is handled by the airline, ground control is FAA controller. They are not even located in the same place.

[@cnaarndt]

@@WWPlaysHoldem Yes, I'm well aware, but that doesn't mitigate the fact that we followed taxi directions to the letter, or that Philly ground and ramp can be jerks... I have plenty of other stories to substantiate.

[@WWPlaysHoldem]

@@cnaarndt No doubt there are a lot of jerk controllers out there, I worked with more than a few over the years. Glad to have retired and not dealing with the DEI controllers and pilots out there today!

[@cnaarndt]

@@WWPlaysHoldem Same here, four years retired, and I haven't been on an airplane this whole time. The state of maintenance industry wide [just to name one issue] would shock most people.

[@jesuschal3802]

“This is Atlanta, get it together" might be the shortening to say “now you know this is Atlanta and so we mess it up… get it together”

[@dojoswitzer]

Pilot: “Hey Controller, I have a number for you to call.”

[@rocqitmon]

That would be a "crickets" moment after which the pilot would have a few months at ground level to shake the phrase out of his vocabulary.

[@rocqitmon]

In the second case, a few laughs - but off-air.

[@cnaarndt]

Actually, a Marine buddy did something similar, told the controller... "Tag the Tape, please let me have your initials and your supervisor's initials and a number I can call you when we land." As a pilot, you need big balls to do this, and you'd better be 100% in the right [BTW, this was a major safety of flight issue on the controller's side].

[@rocqitmon]

@@cnaarndt No one is flawless and if they think they are, they should be forced to rest up and reflect on why and what responsibility is on them. Pilots have the last word to the safe operating of the craft so totally need to assure another's guidance is sound; fight for it if necessary. 👍

[@cnaarndt]

@@rocqitmon Thanks for the comment and I agree. I've told ATC to take a hike [so to speak] on a number of occasions over 50 years of flying. Making a mistake is one thing, a blatant safety of flight issue as my Marine friend experienced by this [arrogant - his words] controller is another thing altogether. Afterall the FAA can and will violate you the pilot, fine you and take away your certificates and potential livelihood if you cause a serious enough flight safety violation. The same applies to controllers!

[@JimAllen-Persona]

Oops… my bad. IMHO… annual ride alongs for controllers should be mandatory.

[@elainebenes7971]

Before 9/11 controllers could ride whenever they wanted and they would do it all the time for personal travel. Now they are specifically forbidden from riding along during vacation time so most controllers don't bother. So ironically in an effort to increase cockpit safety they potentially made air travel less safe overall.

[@JimAllen-Persona]

@@elainebenes7971Never underestimate the ability of the government to shoot itself in the foot.

[@andrewmole745]

That is a little ungracious. Every day we all benefit from government staff doing their job.

[@edjarrett3164]

This was a great video Kelsey. The ATC controller in the second incident was making mistakes and gave attitude. Not a great combination. Aircrew did exactly what they were instructed to do.

[@youcantshimshamthezimmzamm5712]

“Just don’t stop” is the rule for the entire city of Chicago. If you’re in a plane, a car, or on foot. It doesn’t matter if you’re lost or confused or where you need to be. Just keep it moving.

[@iswm]

ya, too many blacks there to be relaxing like that.

[@cosmictreason2242]

@@iswmnot in the middle of the highway or runway my dude

[@captclyde7233]

I hear you Kelsey, I've been based in Atlanta for 4 years now, that controller would have gotten an earful from me if he gave me garbage instructions like that.

[@martinbanatovski4805]

If a controller speaks to me like that Atlanta guy did, I am calling out on radio Possible Controller Deviation.

[@jcarne1015]

I posted my first and only unauthorized takeoff story in the comments of another video. In a nutshell, it appeared that the controller told me to hold short for takeoff, but he was stepped on, and other than my aircraft ID, all I heard was takeoff. Cleared for immediate takeoff was a common clearance at that busy airport, and I assumed that was what he meant. Never made that mistake again. I suspect the controller discovered he screwed up, as I never heard any more about it.

[@be1410all]

Thank you for sharing the technical excellence required of aviators and traffic controllers; one can only show respect! There is so much on the line every day and the obvious education, skills, experience, knowledge, and communication requirements of the job are just awe-inspiring.... THANK YOU TO ALL IN THE AVIATION INDUSTRY FOR WHAT YOU DO TO KEEP PASSENGERS SAFE.

[@Shiroze]

I really like the 2nd way you showed things. It is much easier to follow during the conversation rather than only at the end.

[@goodh2o]

Reminds me of the time I was flying with my brother in law in his Cessna. He was a United 737 captain. He landed at YKM without bothering to contact the control tower. He got a stern rebuke.

[@rcs3030]

I enjoy your channel so much. The interaction between the air controllers and pilots are so interesting and educational. Listening to this makes better pilots of all of us.

[@lindsayruiz3789]

My daughter is a sophomore in high school and has had her heart set on becoming a pilot for 6 years now. Watching your videos has helped to ease my mind.

[@ClearedAsFiled]

You are a GREAT DAD to support your daughter's Dream.....

[@lindsayruiz3789]

@@ClearedAsFiled thanks, but I'm a mom. 😆 🤣 😂 I do support her in anything she wants to do.. however, this dream in particular, as a mother, made me a bit nervous, till I started watching these videos.

[@ClearedAsFiled]

@@lindsayruiz3789 Well, for the record, you are a Great Mom... 🙂

[@lindsayruiz3789]

@@ClearedAsFiled thank you so much!!😊

[@officer_baitlyn]

i feel like a little bit of text based communication in addition to the radio could make a lot of things more relaxed

[@MrVios2008]

I see a big problem especially with some ground and tower controllers - especially at major sirports - in the USA. Many of them think that they are the best and absolutely infallible. However, both is very often not true. The only thing that keeps me calm is that I know that all conversations are recorded and it can be clarified very quickly and clearly who is responsible for any mistakes.

[@tomsmith5584]

One thing I noticed in the second clip is that the pilot says "delta 26" for their gate assignment. In Atlanta, they use "dixie" for the letter "D" instead of the usual "delta" in the ICAO speaking alphabet to avoid confusion with Delta Airlines. I take it to mean the pilots were not familiar with ATL at all.

[@misterhenchmen]

Stella!!!! I am so glad you put that clip in there from flying with her. We miss her posts so much! I hope you do another video with her. Love your vids!!

[@bridge1701]

Hey...what ever happened to Stella? I hope she is ok. She just fell off of social media completely.

[@LadyVoldemort]

Yeah, I miss her too!!!

[@TheUnforgiven69]

She put out a video awhile back on her gram saying she was pregnant and taking a break.

[@bridge1701]

@@TheUnforgiven69 Thank you!! That is great news.

[@Yuracirlce]

I work on the logistics building hvac around DFW and I see planes landing every 5 mins one after the other. It’s actually so Fascinating that it’s so safe.

[@rogerwhittemore9950]

Thanks for giving us a peek behind the curtain with your videos. I'm always eager to watch your content.

[@quinnarbogast8001]

I’m a new CFI and I really enjoy your videos. Seeing how you dissect all these little details has been invaluable to my education as a pilot. Thank you!

[@ClearedAsFiled]

Congratulations on earning your CFI ......

[@debrabaker1009]

Oh my gosh, that controller was so rude. Must’ve been a bad day or not.😂

[@JimMork]

Another personality improperly installed in a bad fit job.

[@arnastubuttwehak994]

Rude people are generally just rude and self-important all the time. I've worked with people who've had truly bad days, and they don't take it out on anyone else, unless they think that their bad day is an excuse to gratify themselves with shows of temper and pettiness.

[@JimMork]

@@arnastubuttwehak994 Is that trait from individual mentality? Or do parents simply not confront a rude kid?

[@terry987654]

I know controllers are under a lot of pressure to keep thing moving but that was a situation he caused himself.

[@RiftWalker111]

I think your overall analysis is great, thank you so much.

[@ashleighsteaparty268]

Every time I hear all these radio conversations I am reminded exactly why I couldn’t be a pilot or an air traffic controller!

[@alisonwilson9749]

Yep- my Dad was an ATC in his youth, I could never do a job like that; though I am a very exact, conscientious, and precise person at work, and I'm pretty good at the tasks similar to the sort of actual tasks involved, I'd never be able to cope mentally with bearing that level of responsibility.

[@gwgaskin]

At ATL, we never use the opposite runway name... that's a quick way to cause confusion. Always use the runway name for the operation we are in (east or west operation)

[@BobbytheBongoPlaya]

Happy Sunday, Kelsey!!!😊😊

[@tinareaume7484]

There's no walk of life that being snooty is beneficial. Well, maybe if you are a guard in a high security prison. But, mostly, being polite is always best and produces the best results. The pilot is a gem and everyone could benifit by following her example. Great video!

[@gordonwallin2368]

Nice job, I've had some "irregulat" coments from ATC up here. Cheers from the Pacific West Coast of Canada.

[@moi01887]

Re the Skywest flight... it's too bad the pilot can't get on the radio to tower and say "Possible controller deviation" and make them call a number. ;^)

[@pikekeke]

Possible controller deviation, please say when ready to take down a phone number.

[@JimMork]

Or at least have a database to enter things so that the pattern of conflicts are accessible for researchers. KZbin is great, but not to facilitate sound research about deficits in aviation.

[@khylerin70]

Thank you for the trouble you go to, your manner in conjunction with your knowledge make your videos easy to watch and incredibly enlightening. May you always, ALWAYS fly safe ,friendly skies Kelsey and DON'T CHANGE please mate. I'm an Australian, in Australia, and have no practical idea of what it's like flying in the U.S, the air traffic must be incredible. Keep safe mate and I look forward always to seeing the next video👍🥂

[@thealavigne1]

there should really be a "possible controller deviation" for guys like this, "you need the number?"

[@briankowald6465]

I see- they had already made a left turn on bravo from bravo3 BEFORE they crossed 26L. After crossing 26L it should have been "left on echo". Hopefully a supervisor will become aware of the controllers behavior. Great video. I enjoy these.

[@john67654]

A big hello from a small town Thurles in Ireland 🇮🇪

[@ChristopherSaindon]

Love from the US Brother!!

[@Pilot_idriss]

Love from Australia 🙇🏾‍♂️

[@jevinday]

Hello from Phoenix, AZ, US ✌️

[@Paidonthedaily]

​@@Pilot_idrissoi oi

[@john67654]

@@ChristopherSaindon Hello my friend

[@user-bs7ue6yz3m]

Love your observations - YOU are a teacher - respect!!

[@CaptainSpock1701]

I love the fact that the first guy actually asked them for the phone number.

[@mrxmry3264]

taking off without a clearance can go HORRIBLY wrong, as the crash in tenerife has shown back in 1977

[@JimMork]

And ANOTHER case where voice was a factor in the deaths of HUNDREDS. But we gotta do radio, gotta do voice. Tradition justifies any amount of bloodletting.

[@MsJubjubbird]

yeah he got lucky

[@christianbarnay2499]

@@JimMork And even better using a radio system that spits garbage out when 2 people talk simultaneously.

[@JimMork]

@@christianbarnay2499 Blancolirio showed a case of that, where two transmissions garbled both. I can send you a text simultaneous to you sending me one. That mode always has handled simultaneity.

[@JustAnotherBuckyLover]

@@JimMork As long as you get the text message, of course... and in a timely manner, rather than hours later.

[@efoxxok7478]

As a retired controller I’m going to go out on a limb and say the controller who missed the read back on the hold short of 8R will by the deviation. The read back on the hold short is not only good practice, by required for the controller to get. This is because of the numerous runway incursions that have happened. If he doesn’t read back specifically “ hold short of” it fully falls on the controllers.

[@kxjewelry7809]

Yup.. the controller will buy (share blame) for this one..

[@nvelsen1975]

It seemed to me like the ATC mixed the order of words and created a message prone to misunderstanding. There's 2 bits of information there: Cross 8L without delay, and, Hold short of 8R. What she did was mix them into three segments 'no delay' got disconnected from 'cross 8L'. "Cross 8L no delay, hold short of 8R" seems a better way to say it to a layman like myself. Then again I used to speak Milspeak for work, so compressing information without getting confusing was part of that.

[@Mixer-he2wb]

Completely agree.

[@matthewmiller6068]

Not a pilot with but having listened to many of these videos, don't they usually put the magic words cleared for takeoff? So it sounds like they both made some mistakes, the pilot not hearing that he was clear for takeoff, and the controller failing to catch the incorrect readback not holding short of the runway. I'm guessing we will probably never actually know whatever came of their discussion after he landed.

[@Peter_Cordes]

@@matthewmiller6068 - I'm not a pilot either, but yeah my understanding from Kelsey's earlier videos and others is that being cleared onto a runway (like the pilot thought he was) is still not clearance to take off from it. And yeah, it's such an important thing that it's never implicit from other instructions, always a "cleared to takeoff" or "cleared to land" on some runway number.

[@jonny3508]

This could be applied to many people in many careers. Thanks Kelsey

[@foxiedogitchypaws7141]

Stay safe and Thank You for flying 🤗🦊🛬🛫🛩️

[@garycosby8979]

Another great debrief... love the chart usage

[@modacare4546]

Come on guys, you're in Atlanta now, do what I mean not what I say.

[@BryanBalak]

"Cleared for takeoff" are the three magic words you need to hear.

[@tfinkens]

“Possible controller deviation. Please let me know when you’re ready to take a number. “