8 Theories From Echoes Of Wisdom [ZELDA THEORY]

[@thinkingatmaxvolume1992]

I came up with some theories but I also tried to guess theories other people might think of so I could talk about them ahead of time. Here are my thoughts on each theory: #1 (Might Crystal / Zonai Swirl) ----I think its plausible #2 (Labrynna Sea Zora) ---- I believe this 100% unless I missed something in game #3 (Rifts Change Landscape) ----- I disagree but I still love Wiz #4 (Rift Survivors Are Echoes) ----- Busted #5 (Null/ Flooded Hyrule) ----- I think it's plausible, especially after talking about the bonus theory #6 (Phantom Ganon / The Void) ----- I believe this 100%, regardless of the bonus theory #7 (Demise / Null's Champion) ----- I disagree (watch my Happy Mask Horned Statue videos) #8 (Wild Era in Downfall) ----- I don't think so, I believe the timelines merged back into 1 BONUS (3 timelines/ 1 Null) ----- I think this is one of my cooler ideas and I think its close to 100% But what's your opinion on these theories? Also check out Wiz's Channel: kzbin.info/www/bejne/nKXOfamVjs2bi6ssi=hxsi09gLUlbQZLOU

[@hokton8555]

3) Link can also speak at the end so whatever happens with the survivors, the defeat of Null "fixed" them, which wouldnt make sence if they are just echoes

[@hokton8555]

maybe Null consumes parts of their soul or something and when he was defeated their soul was reunited (kinda Horcrux like)

[@LuisRicardo-lj4ce]

⁠@@hokton8555Yeah it makes sense

[@MG-mh8xp]

I believe personally that Null never really actually *did* anything magical to them. to me, it just seemed like trauma. it's clear that the void is traumatizing. I mean, imagine this. you're sitting in your room, when all of a sudden you fall into a hole. when you wake up, you are completely frozen. you see your family/friends, and they're all frozen(get rid of the chibi imagery and replace it with real people) and you see an entire dark copy of your home around you, and have to watch as dark shadows taunt and torture you. like, that's traumatizing! it makes sense that some people come back with their brain trying to block out the memories, and an inability to speak, or coming back out with shivers as their brain processes the horrors they just witnessed. THEN look at what helped them! the zora's played music, and it helped the rift victims get better. magic? no! music! it's JUST music. the feeling of music is therapeutic and powerful. it brings people back into themselves. it can honestly help people heal. it's not gonna cure ptsd by any stretch of the imagination, but there's a reason music is so important in our societies. I believe there were other rift victims that we helped, but it was all helped with real physical material means. not magic. I don't think the defeat of null "fixed" people, but it's possible the news of what happened might bring some people back. I think Link was finally able to talk because his mission was complete. he finally did it. he finally felt fulfilled and he could finally open up and talk. I don't think the defeat of Null lifted any real curse, outside of the curse of burden that link put on himself to defeat Null.

[@AidanRatnage]

Demise and his demon tribe being creations of Null doesn't really make sense because I'm pretty sire they are alive and Null wants to kill everything.

[@boyboilNEO9055]

He covered that Maybe wait next time

[@dr.metroid6119]

He just used them to try to destroy the world.

[@user-xt4gh7tn9p]

still Null made echoes before, it's not like it is stupid, it knows that creating something can help achieve it's goals

[@newjumpcityjosh9333]

^Exactly.

[@AidanRatnage]

@@user-xt4gh7tn9p There's also the fact that echoes are copies. Where's the original if the final boss of Skyward Sword is an echo?

[@thefaz3744]

New theory idea: Filled In Void Theory Assume the "Null is in between all 3 timelines" theory is true. After Null is destroyed, that space is still there, empty, unused and, without Null, safe. What if after Echoes of Wisdom the timelines began "crumbling" into that space, bits and bobs of every timeline being in this new one? This would explain how BotW and TotK exist at the end of all 3 timelines and has elements of all timelines. Also - these are the 3 most recent main games. It's possible they looked at the mess made onto the timeline with BotW and decided to make Echoes' storyline specifically to have a way to justify the timeline merging. It's definitely possible.

[@Richarrrg]

I like the theory, but I don’t think it’s the developer’s idea.

[@thinkingatmaxvolume1992]

WizCatchesLightning was also thinking something similar, of how the Void might be involved in the timelines merging ❤️

[@Henrodsantos]

It would make sense if the defeat of null would result in the convergence of time and BOTW and TOTK are reboots of LoZ and AoL respectively. If you consider the history of Hyrule converged after the destruction of Null and restarted just after Skyward Sword, the Zonai would be sent like the Tri to restore Hyrule, with the people remembering the legends of the previous world.

[@Henrodsantos]

Princess Zelda would be again the first Zelda not counting Zelda/Hylia and the separation of Ganon and Ganondorf would make sense.

[@cg1906]

So, null consumes two timelines and the tri’s create echoes of what was lost in the only hyrule that’s left? I like it I like it

[@MysteriousTomJenkins]

I can honestly accept Null not being split between the timelines for exactly what you said. Him and the Goddesses existed before time, the Goddesses created time so I doubt they would be split apart by their own creation. Considering Null is roughly as strong as them, he probably wouldn't be split in timelines and just exist between them all. This would actually make it a lot more reasonable that rifts weren't ever seen before this game (unless you count certain instances). Null has three timelines to devour, three realities with various dimensions and locations so I imagine his rifts are spread pretty thin. I am honestly under the opinion that the main reason rifts are so bad in the Echoes era is because Null has Ganon to make an echo of. The game says that Ganon is the most powerful monster they have encountered so it is likely that some point after Ganon's death, he appeared in the void where Null was able to copy him. Now that he has a demon king of his own, his war against the Tris can go in his favor. Given that Downfall Ganon had the full Tri-Force as well as his boar form, he would be the strongest version of Ganon, and Null now has that at his disposal, he can capture Tris and can actually do something about this meddling new Link who is closing his rifts. As for why he never acquires the other Ganons throughout the timelines, I think it is how they die. WW Ganon is stabbed and turned to stone, TP Ganon is stabbed and dies, Downfall Ganon is killed, resurrected, killed and resurrected then merged with another being. Downfall Ganon is the only one that has been destroyed and recreated, I could see one of his various demises sending him to the void for Null to snatch while the other Ganons remain in the physical world, free from Null's clutches. As for why he focuses on the Downfall Timeline, it is where that Ganon is from, it is the timeline that Ganon had the most success so why wouldn't Null pull in his reasources to try and devour the timeline he has the most likely chance to take down? Honestly a lot of this can work pretty well, I just hope Nintendo offers a bit more answers to have this be concrete. Hell, Null could even be a potential path to a timeline merge so we can get an explanation for why the Wild Era is the way it is, and Nintendo can finally do away with the timeline since its a bit infamous with some people (not me, I like it) so they can go back to just one solid timeline moving forward.

[@Chris-gx1ei]

About which death sent him to the void, I do have my own Theory. Tears of the Kingdom has straight up confirmed what happens to the soul/Spirit of someone if they die, They remain in the underworld where they try to look for the ones that brings them to the Afterlife - thus they are still in the Material World while on their way to a spiritual World before Returning for Reincarnation. Possibly every time Ganon died, his soul Eventually ended up there too... since he kinda died in Hyrule every time or in the Sacred Realm which is directly tied to Hyrule However in A Link between Worlds he died in a completely different reality, thus his soul possibly tried to get out of Lorule into Hyrule to be sent into Hyrule's Afterlife, basically similar to God of War where multiple Afterlifes exist depending on in which Pantheon you are. This means Ganon attempted to get out of Lorule Into Hyrule's Afterlife but thereby he had to get to Hyrule first to even get there, and in order to do that he has to go through the space between dimensions - which basically is the Void

[@The_nerd_hinox]

I have an insane theory, you keep saying that null wants to “eat” or “consume” the world, well I have a theory that null’s spirit is in majora’s mask, because at the end of majoras mask, when majora goes into the moon he says: “I…I….will consume……consume……consume everything! Now, how null’s spirit got into the mask is beyond me, but it’s an insane theory at that

[@thinkingatmaxvolume1992]

I love you pointed this out, but I don't think they're related. Majora just seems more of a child-like troublemaker while Null is pretty much only focused on eating existence. I think Majora wanting to destroy the world is more like a child throwing a tantrum because they didn't get their way and bringing the moon down is like "if I can't have my way then no one can"

[@The_nerd_hinox]

@ that makes sense

[@Richarrrg]

The statues in Echo of wisdom might represent members of the tetraforce-The blue elephant for wisdom- The red cat for power- The… black falcon for courage- Finally the purple cobra for that upside down, ethereal, and imprisoned section of the triforce.

[@Richarrrg]

I think that other Null incursions are a plausible explanation for the dramatic change in Hyrule topography throughout the series- Maybe the best one we got. Of course these incursions would not have turned out as well as the one in Echos of Wisdom.

[@JanusHoW]

I have a very similar theory, and it would fill one of the series' biggest plot holes.

[@TheSinfulKnight]

You are forgetting one more important theory, what is this game takes place BEFORE Minish Cap, where the Minish are the Tri's allowed to have a life. The Minish creates a Hat with the power to grant Wishes, the same power as the Tri-Force, and the Minish are just able to make this.

[@thinkingatmaxvolume1992]

I don't think that works though. The map suggests it's after ALBW, plus the River Zora don't exist until after OoT. Plus Ganon also doesn't exist until after OoT

[@emidemi7211]

I wish this was true so bad. I was so upset when I realized that Ganon's existence makes it impossible.

[@zackchaozmaster]

my theory is that botw/totk are in the child timeline cus Fi is still a long sword. in adult its the 4 word powered up with 2 sages, and downfall the master sword are short sword reforged by sages why it needs the 2 upgrades. If Fi was able to shirk herself why did oot link the 7 year time skip in the fist place? the adult timeline being 7 years ahead is why that 1 can have more si-fi stuff in zelda. It already has trains.

[@darklordyianni4463]

Demise & Null have nothing to do with each other

[@boyboilNEO9055]

Tell me why

[@darklordyianni4463]

@@boyboilNEO9055 cause Null is just a primordial entity, and Demise/Shuen no Mono just the original(?)Demon King...they are virtually irrelevant to each other.

[@thinkingatmaxvolume1992]

@@boyboilNEO9055 AIN'T NOTHIN' BUT A HEARTACHE

[@Chris-gx1ei]

I think while Demise and Ganon may not be a Champion of Null due to their motives of turning the World into a Hell for the Demon Tribe to reign over, there are however a bunch of Creatures that could very much be his Champions. Demon King Malladus for example, he is the Final Boss in Spirit Tracks and a Demon King that Coexisted alongside Ganon, his Goal is the Destruction of the World, and with his Authority over some Demons he even has an Army that bends to his will. Similar can be said about Majora by making the Moon plunge at the earth

[@luigigamermasterofmariokar9387]

Null is the earliest villain in the Zelda timeline and that part is before Skyward Sword but I think the game takes place in the Downfall Timeline as the Golden Goddesses explain why and how they created the world: to contain and imprison Null. Because of this much of EoW backstory takes place before Skyward Sword despite the majority of the game taking place in the Downfall Timeline

[@Faint366]

In the cut scene you mentioned, after clearing the very first dungeon, one of the tris almost forgets to put a tree back and doubles back to finish. So I think it’s more likely then you let on for rifts to change the landscape. All it takes is for one tri to not double back and finish a tree or a rock here and there. I’m not gonna say that’s why death mountain is in the wrong place in this game, but it’s not entirely impossible for them to change the landscape somewhat

[@thinkingatmaxvolume1992]

I think that was more supposed to be a little joke 😅 but I guess it would depend on how often rifts appear and how large they are. The other counter is what then changes the map for the games that take place after EoW, if Null is gone and there's no more rifts

[@Clyde-S-Wilcox]

I really, REALLY dont understand why people can't grasp that BOTW and beyond take place in a unified, restored timeline.

[@thinkingatmaxvolume1992]

Im not sure either, even when thats what the evidence says AND it fixes this whole split timeline problem. I know some people think you can't merge timelines back into 1, but I feel like I gave a pretty logical way to do it in my first video.

[@MaximusBoi-h9q]

I believe that too. If you’re correct, there could be an event of some sort that unifies the 3 timelines. This would result in the version of Hyrule that we see in the flashbacks in TOTK

[@Richarrrg]

I’d have put child for triforce of courage and adult for wisdom. The only (triforce member) left in adult at the end of OOT is Zelda. The main character and perspective continues down the child timeline. The triforce of wisdom is often associated with water- The Great Sea.

[@thinkingatmaxvolume1992]

I just googled it and theres at least 1 reddit post that agrees with you :D I went by the outcomes from OoT, so Link defeating Ganon fits courage and Link preventing all of that with his experience is wisdom. But you could swap the 2 for sure, I just went with what made sense to me

[@KRP71390]

If we go with the ‘only one void’ theory, and having Phantom Ganon be ‘banished into the void’ would make for a good explanation on where the Ganon Echo that Null uses came from. Since Null doesn’t create, only copies things that were consumed by rifts, he, like the other monsters, would need to come from somewhere. Maybe that ‘puppet’ could also change, or just changed at the same time Ganondorf did since its ’of him’ and all.

[@jonatanmonsalve11]

The theory of Null winning and consuming everything in the other timelines is something that other theorizers have been considered, because of how BotW and TotK's origin of Hyrule seems to contradict the origin it was given on the games, and it sees to be some kind of restart of the timeline; it was suggested by one of the directors of those games I think, that it is possible Hyrule was completely erased in some kind of massive calamity, and what we see in TotK's origin of Hyrule is a _new_ origin, as the Zonai create a new Hyrule, starting from zero in a land that's starting again after everything that came before was lost Null winning could be a perfect explanation for it. On the timelines where Null wasn't defeated, he grew too powerful to be stopped, and it consumed almost everything, including the timelines themselves, and the cycle restarted, with the Godesses re-building the land using parts of what Null didn't get to consume from across all the timelines, and that's why that new land has bits and pieces of other timelines

[@thinkingatmaxvolume1992]

For me, I think theres 1 Null and 1 Void, since they existed before time meaning they should exist apart from time, being unaffected by the timeline split. The Void can be accessed from any timeline and EoW Zelda defeating Null means Null can't attack any timeline. I know Wiz suggested something along the lines of what you said but I don't think that's what happened. I still think the timelines merged and the reason there's no kingdom is because it is destroyed in 2/3 timelines

[@DarkAngelBluejay]

So does this make Null's Echo of Ganon possibly based on Phantom Ganon? Ganon sends his Phantom there. And Null copies it? Perhaps there's a tether between the Phantom and Ganon, so when he changed in the Downfall Timeline, so did the banished Phantom.

[@specialnewb9821]

My theory on Demise is that since Null ate "things" that appeared in the void, Demise is a void entity that Null was prevented from devouring after his imprisonment. Malladus (though probably not Vaati) may also have this origin.

[@thinkingatmaxvolume1992]

This might be right. Shinto is one of the main inspirations for the series right, and in Shinto (afaik) the gods just kind of appeared in the chaos before everything. So if that was the case in the legend of Zelda, and null was eating whatever god was formed, then yeah once he was imprisoned Demise and Malladus could totally have appeared in a similar manner

[@JanusHoW]

Vacation is a Minish.

[@gamezx]

Ok here's my running theories when it came to this game. I 100% agree with you that null's void is the "gap between dimensions", but there's a bit more to it than that You see after seeing that the gods created hyrule in order to trap null, the question that came to mind then is what about lorule? Did they have their own null and just faced an identical threat? Well no, i actually believe they faced the exact same null and the gods created both worlds, infact trapping null in the gap between these 2 dimensions, giving both worlds a triforce to hold null at bay from both sides. This is indeed why lorule started falling apart, because they destroyed their triforce and broke the gods fail safe. And also hence why null started escaping in this timeline but not the others, during this period were lorule had no triforce is likely when null was able to capture a few tri's and get their power of creation On a side note, you mentioned termina being a 3rd world, i disagree with this. I've actually devised my own timeline and i've come to believe that termina is actually a country in lorule's world and there are infact just 2 worlds with mirroring triforces. You see termina is a world that was notable for not having a triforce, because lorule destroyed it years ago. If you match up the known events you actually find that lorule destroying their triforce lines up quite well with when the termina giants suddenly decided they needed to sleep in the ground, because they could sense the world was now falling apart and they needed to reinforce termina from the decay. In lorule there is a cult of people who believe wearing masks could transform you into monsters, a culture straight from termina. But more importantly the stone tower in termina is covered in images of twin suns mirroring each other, and a portal constructed at the top of the tower that takes you to a desert not present in termina (the twinmold boss fight). I believe these images show the twin nature of lorule and hyrule and that at the start of MM link fell through a similar dimensional crack as seen in ALBW to lorule's world However there is something else i theorise, that null's realm in the gap between the twin dimensions is also infact the "dark realm" seen in spirit tracks. Its a realm you briefly visit at the end of the game thats a huge dark ocean (or atleast part of one) in a purple sky with a massive black hole overhead, that i believe to infact be null's body This realm looks VERY similar to null's realm and was stated to be the origin world of all demons which would include demise, so i'd disagree with you and say demons DO come from null's realm and they are aspects or manifestations of null's hatred towards the gods who essentially just came down and stole his whole world. As you said demise and his army emerged from "cracks in the ground", this invasion i believe to be the same incident mentioned in EoW were they said "almost immediately null started tearing at the world, so we sent the tri's to mend the rifts" As for the question of when does the wild era happen, as i said i've created my own timeline based on my own research and long story short its very apparent for MANY reasons that the wild era takes at the end of the adult timeline long after the flood finally gives way. Null wouldnt be released in this timeline because the reason null grew strong was due to lorule destroying their triforce, and that event is connected to the events of hyrule in the downfall timeline, not this one There is just 1 big point i cant wrap my head around with EoW, and that's the 2 zora clans. In this game it seems like the 2 clans are just a natural split for the species, however the river zora only ever appear on the downfall timeline. Before i had assumed that something in the downfall timeline caused there to be a transformation in the zoras. But now if we assume there are just 2 natural splits in the species, why are the river zora's completely absent in the adult and child timelines, and even OOT. Heck for that point why are the "sea zora" domains always up river in these timelines if they're supposed to be in the sea. The question of why the river zora only ever appear in the downfall timeline is still one of the biggest unanswered questions i cant figure out in my own timeline

[@digisplosion]

The existence of tris is very interesting to me for the wild timeline. If either the timelines were destroyed, or the universe all the timelines exist in were to destroyed (thus all timelines stop existing due to not having a univerae), the tris could recreate the universe/world/hyrule. Which would explain why events repeat but slightly different and why there's no concrete history of the timeline before. The wild hyrule is a facsimile or a recreation of the original hyrule. Hyrule 2.0

[@digisplosion]

Maybe each timeline just ends in the heat death of the universe and the tris are like nah we got this. If they exist outside space and time they could have echoes of objects from across space and time(lines) and that's how they end up there. Either in a single timeline, or recreated at the end of each timeline

[@saezal89]

#1 - I mean, maybe? It all depends when the first rifts were opened by Null. TotK's Masterworks gave us a new "timeline" (at least concerning the Wild-Era games, they ignore most of the other games) where they stated that after the creation of the earth and sky, the Golden Goddesses entrusted Hylia with the protection over the earth. As stated in the game itself, Might Crystals appear where rifts have been closed by the Tri. So depending on when Null started to create the first rifts after being imprisoned, this theory could be true if it was as early as during the Zonai's Godly Era Origin Period before they ascended to the skies (I say the original timeline takes place in the Era of Myth during the Zonai's Sky Period btw). #2 - Could be. Although they could have existed outside of the visible map in ALttP/ALBW. The Zoras in OoT are clearly Sea Zoras so they should have been around by the time of ALBW. If your theory is corrected it would raise the question as to what happened to OoT's Sea Zoras in Hyrule - did they die out? Did they abandon Zora's Domain and moved east to the coast? If so, how could the Labrynna Sea Zoras settle there? #3 - I doubt it for the same reasons as you. Hyrule's geography keeps changing but not that much to be honest. There was a post on Reddit recently that compared the individual maps and tried to stitch them together to form a universal map. It can work without the rifts explaining the change in geography albeit with a bit of leeway. Here's the post: www.reddit.com/r/zelda/comments/1e0xixm/all_oc_i_have_created_the_ultimate_unified_map_of #4 - Nope. #5 - It depends on whether there are multiple Nulls due to the timeline split. Is it plausible that a primordial eternal being like Null who existed before time itself can have multiples? Does a timeline split mean there are also multiple sets of Golden Goddesses? I think that depends on whether Null is a deity or not. #6 - I agree. What else could the void between dimensions be? #7 - I can see where this theory comes from. I don't particularly think that Demise is Null's champion per se but Null opening rifts aligns pretty well with Skyward Sword's ancient history telling us that one day the earth split open, releasing demons onto the land. That could very well be the first occasion a rift opened (although it would disprove Theory #1 in my opinion as I'd say the Era of the Goddess Hylia (which is the time from SS's ancient battle against Demise to the end of Skyward Sword (with Zelda being Hylia reborn))). That being said, Null could be seen as the antithesis to the creation goddesses themselves and knowing that Hylia is their substitute goddess on earth, Demise could be Null's equivalent to Hylia. Do we ever see Null creating anything other than echoes in EoW? Like real monsters? #8 - From a meta point of view, the Wild-Era games are clearly meant to be a soft reboot of the franchise and a good excuse for Nintendo to not be bothered connecting previous lore to new games (although that seems a bit outdated, given the statements about the importance of a coherent history in the recent EoW-interview on the official Nintendo site). It's hard to even tell actual lore from eastereggs in BotW/TotK. It's deliberately undecided in which branch the open air games take place, Nintendo still has them at the end of the timeline intentionally put behind a dividing line in both the timeline on the original Japanese Zelda site as well as on that oh so confusing timeline graphic from a recent event. To me, that means it COULD be at the end of any timeline, thus the allusions to games in all three timelines (particularly in Zelda's speech in BotW's ceremony scene). That being said, if I had to decide on a timeline branch where the Wild-Era games take place, I'd choose the Downfall Timeline. The DT appears to be the original timeline to me, with basically all newer (non-Wild-Era) games taking place in it (ALBW, TFH, EoW). That sort of makes the Child and Adult timeline the side branches - which makes sense as they are basically the epilogues to the Hero of Time's story (not counting FSA which always seemed a bit off there). That's also supported by Nintendo somewhat abandoning those two branches as the last game in the Child timeline came out in 2004 and the last game in the Adult timeline coming out in 2009 respectively. The Downfall timeline seems to do great compared to those two. Apart from that, the Era of Decline at the end of the DT lines up pretty well with Hyrule being forgotten and its peoples reverting back to a tribal state, forgetting the history and even the existence of the former kingdom which perfectly sets the stage for the Zonai's return from the sky following their crisis of extinction, initiating their Godly Era's Founding Period. Yeah, there's the Rito but regarding the fact that the Rito in BotW/TotK seem to be different ones from TWW's Rito (they even have different crests), it makes a fair amount of sense. And if EoW has told us something about Hyrule's races then it's that different races can exist outside of the borders of the current games map (e.g. the Sea Zora in EoW who could have always been there during ALttP and ALBW). Love your videos mate, keep up the good work!

[@thinkingatmaxvolume1992]

Thanks! I really appreciate it ❤

[@javiervasquez625]

There's no way Demise is a creation of Null, given Null's obsession with the destruction of all _reality_ compared to Demise's quest to *rule* the Zelda world. One wishes to destroy all of Creation while the other wants to conquer and rule it. That said, i pretty much agree with (almost) everything else above. Thanks for the read.

[@saezal89]

@@javiervasquez625 I agree. I guess one could argue that for the destruction of all of creation itself it wouldn't be a bad idea to start with the "earthly representative" of the very goddesses who imprisoned you in the first place but I don't know if I would attribute such an ability to come up with a complex plan to Null. I guess we don't really know how intelligent Null is or if he's more like a "blind idiot god".

[@thinkingatmaxvolume1992]

@@saezal89 "blind idiot god" is foreshadowing for an upcoming video of mine...

[@TheHaddonfieldRegistry]

Theory 2 is good, gonna look into it since that would be fantastic headcanon

[@TheAwsomeKing77]

In response to theory 3 if only seen in Zelda games an area that is an exact copy of the land but corrupted If only that was an area visited multiple times in all three timelines

[@ryanlevine2015]

Null explains how the three timelines could have merged to make the Wild era. That and I think Echoes of Wisdom is on both the Fallen and Child timeline.

[@TheHaddonfieldRegistry]

Maybe that isn't rain in the OoT flashback, but rather night crystals flying through the cosmos

[@hokton8555]

5 - Lorule Part, would make extremely sence since they destroyed the Triforce which was meant to keep Null in check

[@hokton8555]

Lorule also connects to the Bonus theory, since lorule is kinda like an alternate timeline of ALtP

[@thinkingatmaxvolume1992]

This was something I wasn't sure of. If every universe is in the same Void, that should mean there's only 1 Null right, whos trapped in the Hyrule universe. So I don't know if Lorule (and Termina) would have their own Null. If the Universes are actually all separate and unconnected by Void than yeah it would make more sense they each have a Null equivalent. But now I'm thinking what happens in Termina because we don't know if they have a triforce or not. I think I'm leaning more towards 1 Void/ 1 Null and it's trapped in the Hyrule Universe. I've seen other people talking about Lorule falling into the Void, but I'm thinking they have no Null so it's just Lorule collapsing into the Void

[@hokton8555]

@@thinkingatmaxvolume1992 tho Lorule is implied to have a nearly identical history to ALttP Hyrule with the main difference being that they destroyed the Triforce, so i don't see a reason for them not having one. Termina is a different thing tho EDIT: Tbh Lorule is weird on the hand they are implied to be a what-if scenario but on the other hand the Triforce appears to be reversed (cowardness, naivety, and physical weakness)

[@abdieljove2011]

@@thinkingatmaxvolume1992I’m not gonna get into anything else in this theory because I’ve no idea, but Termina shows…signs of being aware of the Triforce. Statues in Stone Tower had an upside down Triforce symbol on their tongues. Hard to know what happened in Termina’s past though lol

[@ZayaMillis]

I like the idea that Demise might have wanted to kill all of the Gods, including Null. It's almost like Gorr the God butcher from Marvel. I wonder if Termina and Lorule are from alternate timelines as well, there could be infinite universes but we only have followed the 3 so far. Especially since the whole Downfall timeline is a "What It" scenario anyway, I feel like that could be freeing for the developers when it comes to the story and lore.

[@thinkingatmaxvolume1992]

Demise does also have a fancy sword like Gorr... EDIT: i actually saw this today but Marvel has a god named Knull (who gave Gorr his sword) and Knull lives in a Void

[@ZayaMillis]

@@thinkingatmaxvolume1992 That's awesome! Haha

[@icecold273k5]

I just hope we get null as a bad guy in two other games, one in each time line

[@nworder4life]

We have 3 Triforces in the series, 1 for each timeline. There's definitely 3 different Nulls unless he died before Ocarina of time.

[@thinkingatmaxvolume1992]

Interesting point, the triforce was created after time was, so technically you could say it exists in time, while Null and the Void don't. Timeline split could create 3 triforces but Null would still be unaffected. Just what I'm thinking, I think 3 timelines/ 1 Null is more what I lean towards

[@nworder4life]

@@thinkingatmaxvolume1992 I think that's an interesting perspective. That the goddesses created the flow of time. Does the game actually said there was no time in the void? Anyway I'm not thinking about time, I'm thinking about the universe as a whole, being split into 3 separate universes. Yea we call it "time" line but in reality it's the fabric of the universe that's split into 3 alternate realities. If the concept of a universe is just a space that Null is outside of, then you could say anything that splits it wouldn't affect him and he's outside of it...but at the same time he WAS inside of Echoes of wisdom's world which is a universe/timeline so if that was split, I would think he would be apart of it. It's an interesting discussion for sure.

[@thinkingatmaxvolume1992]

@@nworder4life 100% figuring out the metaphysics is fun lol and yeah theres a few times in EoW where it says "before time" there was Null and the Void. And then in OoT that creation cutscene, it also says the golden goddesses appeared "before time" and people think that the "spirit of universal law" or whatever it says in that cutscene that Nayru created includes time, which lines up with the Nayru in OoA being the oracle of Time.

[@nworder4life]

@@thinkingatmaxvolume1992 Makes sense, then you could appoint Hylia as the goddess of time, which is what I strongly believe she is. So if Null is outside of time (which I believe demise and Hylia is too, btw) then do we think he's outside of the reality that gets split via the time travel mechanics? If so then yea his death would be outside of time and he could never come back in a future game. to simplify my thought process. We have a line drawn on white paper, everyone is forced to walk the line and the line splits into 3 path's. Instead of Null walking the line, he sees it from above and he can float/fly all around the line and see all the branches from above, freely having access to all of them. The line would personify time, and everyone else is like" I can't go back to the start of the line, I'm forced to keep walking on this path" This would be your argument, correct? If so, I'd say you have a solid argument if time indeed did not exist inside of the void.

[@thinkingatmaxvolume1992]

@@nworder4life Pretty much this yep. Null's Void prison is outside of time meaning unaffected by the splits and each split can access this space. What does it mean to be outside of time? That's a question for Grezzo and Nintendo :D

[@RyuuKageDesu]

I thought about the Zonai connection to the Might Crystals the moment I gained one, and even ponder if might crystals are related to Zonaite. I am also intrigued by the idea that the void is timeless, though, if that were really the case, how would Null be able to be defeated, unless Link and Zelda brought time with them.

[@thinkingatmaxvolume1992]

Honestly the whole "before time" thing I think is one of the problems of the story, but yeah there are some interesting ideas you can do with that. And like I said in the video, the game legit says the void and Null existed before time so... what does that really mean? :D

[@6n-thorus945]

May Lowrule be an alternate version of dark world from TP? Would make sence, that dark world is just whats left from adoult timeline Lowrule, that was saved by defeating null, but still exists as some arcitecture flying in void?

[@patpat4937]

The tris due to null being null would eventually be making echoes of echoes of echoes which doesnt sound very sustainable Edit: I realised most people wouldn't know why this is bad. The fact is ALL matters of copying have generation loss. where over time small details dissappear which would add up quickly.

[@thinkingatmaxvolume1992]

Echoception

[@1989jamb]

Im not a a physicist or anything, but i think that, according to the big bang theory, time and space were derived from the explosion.. before that.. there was nothing. As such, i think timelines were born after null creation.. meaning there is 1 null across all of them..

[@thinkingatmaxvolume1992]

Exactly my thought

[@Big_Dai]

One would need to be DESPERATE to take anything away from this game!! Exactly because of @5:14! People don't even consider that there might be more timelines.. and Nintendo just hasn't decided into making more of a mess of the lore they created (without thinking) for this franchise.

[@tadeolaguarda6965]

Most of not all of Hyrule being ecos wouldn't really change anything, the entire world was created whit the magic of the godesess the echoes are exact copys made whit the power of the godesess, so there really couldn't be any ramyfications to everything being echos

[@martinslabe7751]

but what if the only reason he wants to rule is that he sees how powerful the goddesses are originally his mission was to destroy everything but the battles and powers through the years made him realize that what Null told him was a lie and now he wants to control the world and the goddesses. but when he got defeated by the hero and the reincarnated goddess he wanted to destroy them and the world. so he places a curse on them vowing one day to defeat them. and he may have lost the connection with null because Null removed him from it because he started to notice how the power corrupted his plans to take the world back to the void? but didn't remove all his power from his creation. in the hope that it would get his revenge for him and then destroy the side of him that he removed from him. when he thinks he is finally able to rule over Hyrule and the world.

[@thinkingatmaxvolume1992]

I think the biggest counter argument is Null can't create anything original so making Demise isn't possible. And if Null did create Demise, presumably like it makes imposters, it would have 100% control over Demise and there'd be no way Demise would turn against it.

[@daniebello]

just because it’s not explicitly stated that they’re not Zonai in origin doesn’t mean that that’s not where the design originates from in the lore

[@Waluigi7891]

Am I the only one that thinks the downfall timeline existing makes no sense? For the adult and child timelines, it makes sense. There was actual time travel involved, so it's understandable that would cause a timeline split. But why does a Link dying cause one? And why is that the only point where there's a timeline split because Link died? Why isn't there a timeline split for all of Link's adventures, one where he wins and one where he loses? Also, how come Skyward Sword and Oracle of Ages didn't cause timeline splits?

[@thinkingatmaxvolume1992]

I got this. There's 2 legit theories for Downfall timeline being a thing: first one is because the child and adult timelines are like representations of the triforce of wisdom and courage, a third timeline needed to be made to balance everything out so we got a timeline for the triforce of power. The second is that at the end of ALttP Link wishes to undo the evil of Ganon. That restores Hyrule in that time, but it retroactively creates a split during the final battle in OoT because defeating Link was Ganon's "first evil act." I think both are cool and they are the best explanations that still fit the story

[@zacschr1808]

i like to think the depthes in totk are kinda like the still world or the void. idk

[@MaximusBoi-h9q]

Maybe Demise and the demon tribe are extensions of Null?

[@Kakiya]

Could demise be from lorule? He has the inverted triforce on his sword

[@xan42O]

What's the evidence for EoW being in the downfall timeline? Just both zora species being present? Anything else?

[@thinkingatmaxvolume1992]

Based on the map, it would seem its either in the Child Timeline (because of FSA) or the Downfall Timeline. But my notes so far are: 1) Red Cape Ganon: Red Cape Ganon only appears in the DT. Ganon in FSA has a purple cape 2) The Great Deku Tree. EoW cant be in the Adult TImeline because... theres a bit of water lol so we're left with the CT or the DT. The child timeline has no Deku Tree (theres the theory the Forest Temple in TP is the Great Deku Tree's remains) and as far as we know the Deku Sprout doesnt... sprout unless the Forest Temple is cleared, which doesn't happen in the child timeline. BUT the deku sprout in the future of OoT exists as part of the AT AND DT. In the AT it becomes the tree of WW, but we don't know what happens in the DT... or do we? I think the Great Deku Tree in EoW is the sprout from OoT, which explains why it looks like the tree from OoT. The reason the sprout looks different in the AT I'd say is environmental factors (Great Ocean may have affected the sprout's development) 3)The Sea and River Zora I don't think is as big of evidence but EoW fits nicer in the DT after the Oracle games if the labrynna sea zora did actually come to Hyrule 4) I have to double check but I had a thought about the ruins in EoW and I need to see if theres any ruins that might be from the Tower of Winds in FSA, because if there's none that line up then that would also suggest a downfall timeline placement (if EoW was in the CT it'd have to be after FSA based on the map of EoW being more developed) I'm gonna do this video next but I hope this made sense in the meantime

[@xan42O]

@@thinkingatmaxvolume1992 i see, thanks for the very in depth breakdown, love it 🙏💖 i highly recommend @brosephlacasquevtuber 's zelda map videos, could def help place it on whichever timeline it may be.

[@hokton8555]

@@thinkingatmaxvolume1992 volvagia also makes an appearence in Zelda II

[@thinkingatmaxvolume1992]

@@hokton8555 ok that's cool. I should prob play Zelda 2. And the Volvagia we see in OoT, that section is technically part of the Adult AND Downfall timelines as well

[@xan42O]

@@thinkingatmaxvolume1992 idk why my other comment isnt showing but i recommend the zelda map vids by broseph lacasque, great breakdown btw ty

[@theking8347]

Demise can't be a god because he wants the Triforce and it's stated in Skyward Sword that gods can't use the Triforce.

[@thinkingatmaxvolume1992]

Yeah someone else brought this up, but now I'm curious as to how Null can use it then

[@blairesydog]

​@@thinkingatmaxvolume1992 the simplest answer to why null can use the triforce is the one that makes most sense to me, honestly. null... isn't a god. just a creature. a very, VERY, UNFATHOMABLY strong creature, but a creature nonetheless. it has no divine plan for the universe, it has no drive to create life (and if it wasn't for null taking the power of the tris, i don't think it would even be ABLE to create), it hardly even has a will of its own... just the instinct to keep living that everything has. heck, you could say it probably wasn't even eating for any malicious reason UNTIL it was locked away... like a caged animal. this is a ridiculous way to look at it, but i'd honestly compare null to like, some kind of goat? grass grows, it grazes, and that process repeats for as long as the goat is *free* to graze. this goat got locked in the barn without any grass to munch on so now it stubbornly headbutts the door until it breaks down..... and then the farmers immediately buy a new one 😔

[@thinkingatmaxvolume1992]

@@blairesydog i love that goat analogy lol There's no way Null is not a god. A primordial being whos on the same level as the golden goddesses who existed before time, who's self aware and can communicate with other beings, and can consume entire universes... thats a god. Not a fun god, but def a god. Totally want to give credit to a reddit thread on this one but... Null doesn't use the Triforce, it uses the POWER from the Triforce. Null doesn't make a wish. This reddit thread suggested Demise would do the same thing. SO MAYBE "gods cant use the Triforce" means "gods can't make a wish with the Triforce", BUT like we see with Null, gods can use the Triforce to get stronger. Maybe that's what Demise would do. Maybe the GOOD gods don't use the Triforce like this because its taboo, or its considered evil to do. I don't know I'm just thinking out loud here. It's just for me, Demise being a fallen god makes the most sense. And Null itself is definitely a god www.reddit.com/r/truezelda/comments/4qqxsz/comment/d4vh48q/

[@wizcatcheslightning]

Nice Berserk music at the end there

[@thinkingatmaxvolume1992]

I may have binged Berserk 1997 recently...

[@wizcatcheslightning]

@@thinkingatmaxvolume1992 😂

[@MG-mh8xp]

ok but how come copy and pasting is different from putting something back? like, I understand those are two different actions, but how does one make it so that it's fallible, and the other isn't? because each individual tri is having to copy a piece of the land, and paste it back. you can paste something into the wrong spot. even if you're accurate, you might have accidentally placed it an inch to the left, or a foot to the right, or placed that one tree a little closer to the other trees, or placed the cliff at the wrong angle, or whatever. I know that in the game, things seem to have been mostly placed back where it's supposed to be. but most of the rifts we close were ALREADY there at the start of the game so we don't know what it was supposed to look like beforehand, and also there's just general gameplay reasons as to why this might be a problem if you were to make an area different before and after. also, this isn't just applying to this specific game, but all time, all in very small increments. whose to say that the tri's can't make mistakes when copy and pasting things? whose to say that the tri's don't make thousands of mistakes across the several millennia that takes place between the game?

[@thinkingatmaxvolume1992]

It's possible but then how does the geography change after Null is defeated? Because no more Null means no more rifts, and there are games that take place later with different maps

[@MG-mh8xp]

@thinkingatmaxvolume1992 I honestly don't really care about how the geography changes. Plenty of it can be due to just.. Hyrule itself moving. Like plate tectonics. It could be due to magic, it could be that the kingdom moves over time. The castle doesn't always look the same between games, is it really the same castle? Is every Hyrule really the same Hyrule? The royal bloodline stays the same, but calamities happen. Empires fall. But you can always identify who's the royal bloodline due to the fact that the daughter is always magical and connected to the goddess hylia. so it makes sense that Hyrule is a kingdom that can never truly die out since it's royal bloodline is nigh unkillable.

[@thinkingatmaxvolume1992]

@@MG-mh8xp um... you said you dont care how the geography changes... but you started the convo by talking about the tris changing the geography so... Im just a little thrown off. You gave a counter point, I countered, then you went "oh well I never cared anyway." And you saying that the geography changes naturally over time, is what I said, so are you agreeing with me now?

[@MG-mh8xp]

@thinkingatmaxvolume1992 the point that I was getting at was more that I was confused as to how it was different when it was "copy-paste" rather than "putting every back." I was confused about your reasoning for it being wrong, and I argued that their theory still sticks. I personally like the idea that magic and tectonic events changed the world. Basically, I was playing devils advocate so I could figure out what you meant, more than it was to defend the idea.

[@shyeazykoopa414]

Did the twilight realm get left out, since it’s pretty much just as parallel to hyrule as lorule is right?

[@thinkingatmaxvolume1992]

I was thinking the Twilight Realm and Sacred Realm were more like layers of the Hyrule Universe and not their own separate universes

[@shyeazykoopa414]

Ok I feel that, I just wanted to make sure it didn’t get forgotten since it was one of my fav Zelda games out there franchise, but I did get the same type of vibe from it

[@daniebello]

zelda lore is a bit unclear on creation stories. each kingdom seems to have it’s own creation story. i think it’s likely that the goddesses created Hyrule and not necessarily the planet

[@MysteriousTomJenkins]

What other creation story has there been besides the one in Ocarina of Time? And both OoT and EoW clearly show an entire world being created, not just a continent. There was just void before that, where was everything else if the Goddesses only created one continent?

[@JaceGarrdok]

My very first theory in the game was when I figured out the Ganon you fought at the beginning was just an echo, the real one might still be out there somewhere and (for once) be on the good side of things, eventually helping you in the final encounter.

[@thinkingatmaxvolume1992]

That would have been cool af

[@Clyde-S-Wilcox]

"I want to rule this world, and I can't do that if you destroy it!!!"

[@tonyzhang197]

nintendo just putting random shit into its games: people making timeline theories:

[@FalconFetus8]

These were all pretty light on evidence.

[@thinkingatmaxvolume1992]

Maybe, but I think they were at least well thought out. What are your thoughts on the theories?

[@teyannihlux8261]

Time of null Creation of the world Era of the goddess The improvising war Skyward sword - the era of sky Timeline split Wish demise away timeline 1 Murder demise timeline 2 -------------_--------------------------- Wish timeline Tears of the kingdom pasts Interloper war Hylian civil war Ocarina of time Timeline split Adult abandoned timeline 1.1 Child reverse timeline 1.2 ------------------------------------------- Child timeline 1.2 Majora Twilight princess -------------------------------- Adult timeline 1.1 Wind Waker Phantom hour glass Spirit tracks breath of the time tears of the kingdom I feel this works best ------------------------------------------------------------ Murder timeline 2 Minish cap Echoes of wisdom (i think?? ) Four sword Four Swords adventures A link to the past Oracle of season and ages Links adventure Echoes of wisdom??? (Maybe) Link between worlds Link 1 and 2 Triforce heroes 1.2 universe prime Creation of the world Era of the goddess The improvising war Era of sky (every species might have gone up ) Skyward sword The defeat of demise The first colony and settlement At some point i truly believe that loftwings become horses and that is why they are such a love animal in zelda And they get a buch of tech wow Tears of the kingdom past - the second imprisoning war The proper creation of the Kingdom The interloper wars Ocarina of time Wind Waker Spirit tracks Phantom hourglass Breath of the wild Tears of the kingdom . 1.1 Creation of the world Era of the goddess The improvising war Era of sky (every species might have gone up ) Skyward sword The defeat of demise Tears of the kingdom past - the second imprisoning war The creation of the kingdom The interloper wars Ocarina of time Majoras mask Drama with ganandorf - Marriage to malon and the founding of oridon villages??? Or moving too Twilight princess 2 Creation of the world Era of the goddess The improvising war Era of sky (every species might have gone up ) Skyward sword The defeat of demise Minish cap Echoes of wisdom ??? Four sword Four Swords adventures A link to the past Oracle of season and ages Links adventure Link between worlds Link 1 and 2 Triforce heroes

[@madbr3991]

One winged angel

[@lordnul1708]

Drinking game: do a shot of your preferred liquor every time you see "null" in my comment (and its inevitable replies), including the pronunciation of my screen name. I personally think the "Demise is a fallen God" theory can be debunked just by having actually played Skyward Sword. They literally say Demise intends to use the Triforce himself and that the gods are incapable of using the Triforce themselves, that's why Hylia had to protect it from him in the first place. If Demise was a fallen god, he would not only be incapable of using the Triforce, but he'd have known that he would be incapable (as fallen or not, they would not have enabled someone like demise to remove that safeguard just by losing his status). There os also no evidence beyond superficial comparison to imply that Demose fell before rising out of the earth, as the (chronologically earliest) mention of his arrival is in fact coming out of a ridt that opened up in the ground (though not the same kind of rift, as there's enough to distinguish the deep crevices of SS's backstory from the fractal noise of Echoes of Wisdom). That said, the theory about Null creating Demise is still debubked by the fact that Null cannot create anything new (nor does Null want to, since Null wants to consume until only Null remains), it can only copy (and even then Null had to steal that power from the tris it captured), with all of the bosses/imposters canonically being echoes.

[@thinkingatmaxvolume1992]

Wait now Im thinking, how can Null use the Triforce? It's definitely the same level as the golden goddesses. I would 100% call it a god

[@TomMooreT2S]

As interesting a villain Null is… It’s basically Zelda’s equivalent to Kirby’s Void Termina… In Kirby lore, despite storytelling not being a prime focus, it had this long, gradual buildup through each passing entry. Nightmare, Dark Matter, Zero, the Novas, the Master Crown, all of it. They’re (in various senses) all connected to Void Termina. Some have theorized that Void was the polar opposite of what Kirby is, but was tainted with the negativity of the known universe. Of course, developer interviews and whatnot could say otherwise, but many weren’t confirmed. As a Kirby fan, I can tell that HAL was building this up before the transition to 3D gameplay with Forgotten Land. Here in Zelda, Nintendo made the gameplay a priority and had themselves writing in a corner that staying true to past Zeldas is more difficult to write a convincing story… but the overall bottom line is while they did take the plots of past games into account, they didn’t do the same with the overarching lore… They no longer consider a complexly-connected timeline to be of any relevance. And for good reason… Because the timeline no longer matters… I still stand true to the belief that there is only a single canon timeline and all the others are parallel or just their own thing with no true canonical connection. In other words… I give up piecing the timeline together, and so should you. There is just no point to piecing Echoes with the lore that Ocarina of Time established, there is no point to connecting the Great Calamity to the Twilight Invasion, there is no point to connect the Zonai to Skyloft, and there is no point to connect Null to the Great Sea. We as fans should just give it up and make our headcanons the way we see fit. Nintendo doesn’t care about this nor us anymore. They should just stop selling us lore books and just sell the games.

[@thinkingatmaxvolume1992]

I mean... the timeline is messy but it works. The Wild Era being a reunified timeline works (even if not officially canon). EoW fits into a specific spot. Certain games are direct sequels to each other, or make callbacks to other games. So I don't think I'd say the timeline is irrelevant; there are lots of people who are invested in it, and there's people who aren't. I think that's ok either way

[@TomMooreT2S]

@thinkingatmaxvolume1992 I appreciate your honesty and concern for my take. We don’t always have to be on equal terms. 🙂