"80-20 Running Rule" Mistake and Zone 2 Training! Why Runners do this wrong? Coach Sage Canaday

[@Vo2maxProductions]

Check out our Tracer x Higher Running 50km ultramarathon trail running (dynamic) program! www.tracerfitness.com/programs/higher-running-50k

[@darthjohn0]

I think Stephen Seiler has said that advanced/professional athletes often don't train "80/20" (not his term) because they can recover much faster from workouts. So for us normal people it's not just about injury prevention, it's also about recovery and maintaining a high volume. As a triathlete training for 3 sports for 10-15 hours/week, 80/20-type plans are the only way I can realistically pursue triathlon and balance the rest of my life without being chronically tired and burned out.

[@bennyfriis601]

Your input is second to none, Sage. Keeping it balanced and nuanced is so important imho. Stay safe and keep it up, buddy.

[@Vo2maxProductions]

Thank you so much!!

[@ed8130]

I appreciate the nuance and details you provide in a structured and formal way. It suits my analytical approach to marathon training. However, the base of much of my knowledge of marathon training came from your less detailed content, and from the type of content that is more typical of less accomplished, but still informative, creators. I often re-watch basic training videos to remind myself of the basics.

[@Vo2maxProductions]

I'll still be making "short form" content with Running Tips and Training. I do these more on Instagram and TikTok (under SageCanaday ) but some also as "Shorts" on here too!

[@roberthill7458]

I never thought about training in the way you just described it. Getting in shape fast by hammering quality workouts. But the cost is higher injury chance, a lower peak, and less time At the peak. Idk why I’ve never thought about it like that but it makes so much sense. A better base build would last longer. This makes me feel better about slowly building. Thanks y’all!

[@thepsychologist8159]

My nephew (he's 33 yo), who took up distance running about 5 years ago, sent me a text message last night. It said "just did a 5km at easy pace, 14kph". Now, he's fastest half-marathon time is just under 100 minutes (not too bad), but that puts his 'easy pace' training at well below 14kph. In the past few years I've been trying to educate him on easy pace training and building the aerobic engine, however I've always had my suspicions he's training too fast/too hard as he always seems to lose pace at the back end of a HM. With all the resources and hints I've given him, by now I would have thought he'd gotten the idea. So my reply to him was "too fast, for your level you should be running easy pace at approx. 11-11.5kph". His reply was "I just don't think I can run that slow, running slow is hard for me". Which my reply was "you need to learn to run slower, learn the concept of running slower to run faster". Honestly though, I don't think he'll listen because he's always got his eye on the watch, always trying to smash (5km/10km) PBs even though he wants to run a sub-90 for the HM.

[@BeFr-vp7ot]

@@thepsychologist8159 Did you recommend him to use heart rate instead of pace for monitoring his effort? When I first took heart rate into consideration, I was shocked how hard I was going all the time. By now I am running so slow in my recovery runs that a single breath cycle may take up to 20 steps, breathing through my nose only (I like it that way during low effort). When in any final sprint during a race, I am pumping air ten times as fast. Share that info from a random runner on the internet if you like ;-)

[@velosoph02]

I personally went away from running too much in Zone 2. I rather run less but harder 3 times a week. 1 base run, 1 VO2max run, 1 Zone 2/4 run. Trying to improve these runs week by week. Works great because of less monotony. I can run hard in the Vo2 max run. Base run in Zone 2 also improves. Slowly increasing mileage. I definitely got way faster since march and I dont feel that exhausted. I ran a lot of Zone 2 and just burned out over time… Doesn’t work for me. Getting on to a new PR in the Half marathon distance. Less is more!

[@GastonPRamirez]

Thanks for keeping the dream alive. Feeling inspired.

[@kpk33x]

I could never do heart rate training. Even in college running 60 miles per week I could hit zone 2 running 11 minute miles. But I could race 4:45 mile/17 for 5k. Using heart rate training I was always into zone 4 on the easiest of runs so I gave up. Today age 49 my watch tracks it... my max HR is still in the 180s, generally easy runs average around 150-155 and I don't feel any strain in those. Resting heart rate is high 30s low 40s. Was referred to cardiologist due to heart feeling like it was skipping and wore Halter for a week his conclusion was I had the healthiest heart he'd seen, one part of my heart occasionally tries to make up for the other going slow, beat dropped as low as 29 overnight. He said he would bet a year's salary my cause of death would not be heart disease. So bottom line is I think I am a huge outlier. I run 20 miles a week now, limited by my weight and lack of time.

[@brendaj7037]

I’m injured so no running and I am using my usual training time to binge watch your videos. They are really helpful. I’ve seen the “influencers” talking about zone 2 and my easy long runs are usually in the 150-160 bpm range. I’m 44 y/o female with a 5k time of 19:30 and I did that for fun while training for ultras. I just finished the Midwest Super Slam so I’m in good shape but I want to try to run a fast marathon next. Thank you for explaining zone based running! I was so worried there was something wrong with me. I’m anxious to use what I’m learning to improve my running once I’m recovered!!

[@brendaj7037]

side note… I didn’t get injured from the races or training. I rolled my ankle on a walnut at mile 1 of the 5th race and ran 99 miles on a sprained ankle causing more damage. 😢

[@rayamos1398]

Thanks for the video, some great insights. I've spent the last 3 years mostly running zone 2, and it's been an incredible experience. I went from 13 minute milles down to 8 minute miles as my fitness improved and weight came down (I've lost ~45lbs), and have stayed injury free. Last year I started to smash all of my PBs and joined the sub-90 half marathon club in January this year. I'm absolutely convinced that it's been the focus on zone 2 that got me here, and now over the past 6 months or so I'm adding in some harder sessions but I'd say it's still 90-95% easy work. My aerobic base is so strong now, I can push on much further and run up hils that others walk (especially after watching one of your older videos about HOW TO run up hills) and just eat up the imles. I can't recommend this style of training enough. One you get past the initial frustration of having to learn to run slow, it pays dividends massively over time.

[@hibiru6868]

For someone like me who only runs for enjoyment a very strong base is all I need right now. I’m two months into a six month program and going slow enough to stay in zone 2 has been my biggest frustration. After two months I’ve seen some speed increase but it’s slow (10-15 sec per mile faster on the same route). The way I look at it is that I have no choice but to spend the time building the base and if the only way to get a base is to run slow then I have to run slow. I hope I see faster improvement though because it’s mentally tiring walking as much as running.

[@BobbyRunout_EverydayWorld]

Thanks for this video and all your others. Your channel was the first running channel I found when I started getting a little more seriously into running a few years ago and every time I watch one of your videos it feels like home.

[@goodyeoman4534]

That Colorado scenery is breathtaking I'd love to run there. Beats the hell out of my dingy town lol.

[@steveilg6134]

Nice! Thanks! I can still see 183 during Nordic ski races at age 62 (next month)! Thanks again for the cameo on my Channel! Dewa just won her 800 heat at Pre-States! 2:32! The Nordic racing and sport climbing has developed a lot more muscle and suddenly she has found the power for the mid-distance Track events! She had a disastrous 3500 yesterday evening so this is really needed! A year ago? Never imagined she'd be winning 800's! might make a cool Podcast or Vlog on "how long it takes to find your running niche" in various distances and surfaces? head bowed from the high San Juans!

[@Vo2maxProductions]

hey great to hear and congrats to you and Dewa! Yeah I actually raced the 800m quite a bit in middle school and hs still (and it wasn't until my last 2 years of hs that I had a real breakthrough in the longer distance events). For sure it can take some time in the teen years and even 20s (or later in life!) figuring out what might be one's "best event" or "best sport" even...all part of the fun of the process!

[@JS-xn3dq]

Thanks for the insight! I guess that applies to any training plan - use it as a guide but adapt to conditions. I am following a 10K program now but totally skipped the recommended speed workouts last week except for a nice 3 mile response run (which wasn’t in the plan). I got some speed work in though with the tempo run. This week I’ll do a little more speed work. Nice reminder to pay attention to how you’re feeling and adjust accordingly, if needed.

[@GeoffreyHiggs]

The coros arm band HR strap is great! Just switched from a chest strap.

[@Vo2maxProductions]

great to hear! glad you like it!

[@alexyap9138]

i wish i learned about it sooner. my chest strap arrived only today and i tried it out earlier for an interval session and i did find it constricting my breathing a bit despite adjusting the fit a couple of times.

[@st14]

Is it any more accurate than the wrist optical HR monitor in the Pace 3? They are both optical HR monitors…

[@shayneknox6247]

thanks coach Sage!

[@Max_Toovey0308]

Awesome Info Sage, always get a few key take aways from your videos

[@edu1113]

Ive just started zone 2 training and about 4 weeks ago.. and my pace have improved in the same heart rate.. im thinking of doing 20% speed work but was unsure how to incorporate it into my plan.. your video has given me some clarification about it tho.. thanks so much

[@bentaylor3730]

Just like you mentioned to the people who have ran a marathon or two and become fitness influencers, I would say the same to those when talking about her rate straps and the different kinds. I think we can all agree that wrist based heart rate monitors are inaccurate, and arm heart rate monitors are more accurate saying that you get more interference from a chest heart rate monitor is untrue, if you want proper and proven reviews that aren't sponsored then go with someone like "DC Rainmaker for all your watch and heart rate reviews. I believe that he mentions that chest heart rate monitors are still a bit more accurate than arm banded ones. I do agree that they can be more cumbersome and uncomfortable and it's probably better to go with the arm based strap sering as though the drop in accuracy is probably only minor. Love the videos Sage, keep up the great work.

[@gmemo4449]

Just came across this video, thank you it really helped a lot.

[@jaymills1720]

Going too much in zone 3 accumulates fatigue and makes doing hard workouts harder. Recovery is the determining factor I’d think. Going at a comfortable pace most times you’re moving is why seiler found that in elite runners.

[@Vo2maxProductions]

yes that is one of the things i talk about in this video (the muscle fiber fatigue)....it will compromise harder workouts and is an injury risk due to higher impact force. It can also cause mental stress/strain.This is all covered in the video.

[@jaymills1720]

@@Vo2maxProductions agreed just validating that! :)

[@goodyeoman4534]

I think the mechanical factor of running form is also underrated by some. Being tall and not naturally athletic, it took me a while to iron out my bad form. But that alone got my times down even without speed work.

[@mrdavester]

Yes I did a 3 month training block last spring and ran a fantastic 5k time. So I then trained harder for my next race and felt worse. Then I kept training for a last 5k race and was my slowest yet.. exhausted.. really need to rest

[@jeffrichard5740]

I struggled for years to run a sub 25 k5. Easy long runs changed my game completely. First I got faster by these run, but more importantly I recovered so much faster from tempo work. This was amazing.

[@benjamin.kelley]

I've been approaching marathon training the last few years with an 80/20 mindset, andnits allowed me to build into higher volume training with more higher mileage speed sessions.

[@DUPUY99]

At 4:00, I get what he was trying to say, but what he's saying is kind of incorrect. I think of endurance in two parts, there's the high intensity, anaerobic speed that gets built quickly and deteriorates quickly, which is what he refers to when he talks about "peaks," and then there's the aerobic side, which is generally built through the easy runs. When you run at a high intensity, you still build the aerobic, but you're prioritizing the anaerobic system and you see the greatest gains in that area with higher intensity running. When we run slow, we're slowly building the aerobic engine, but we don't build the anaerobic. Anaerobic running also comes at a fatigue cost, making daily high intensity running very hard to sustain. Sage knows what he's talking about, he is in no way incorrect, I just think he didn't explain it well. I appreciate Sage sharing his experience with training for free. It's a tremendous resource for non-elites like me.

[@kenklee4]

I'm a new runner as of last year. I'm a heavy runner - 5'9" at 216 lbs. Easy pace is typically around 12:25/mile but I've had days where 11:30 min/mile feels amazing as well. I've been running mostly easy runs and my aerobic base feels solid and I have recently added a hill interval workout once a week and it has helped with my speed. I'm very tempted to mix-in a tempo run in the week to increase my running pace. My impatience with the process is getting the best of me at my current pace so I may to add that workout to see if my body can handle it. Thank you for the video.

[@RunZackRun]

Take it easy. I have been training for 8 years. Some years our fitness may drop a bit, im my experience take it easy to bring it up. 2 3 months is a good number to go easy before adding more tempos let alone interval or threshold runs. Easy first. Be patience. Btw I've ran 5 marathons and countless halves

[@Vo2maxProductions]

hey great work - keep it up! Staying healthy and consistent long term is the number one goal. It can very well be that your Zone 2 Easy pace range is all between the realm of 11-min and 12-min miles (like I said there is a range!). So that's good. Be patient and start slower than you think for a Tempo....but it depends on your weekly mileage (total volume). Generally people might start with 3 x 5-min Tempo surges on a 2-min rest between. Might just want to try at like 10-min mile pace or so to start. Eventually that can be a continuous 15 or 20-min "Tempo Run" (after a warm-up). Keep it up!

[@goodyeoman4534]

You shouldn't really be doing intervals for the first few months

[@Burps___]

Sage, thanks for telling us about 80/20, and how it's not hard and fast rule but flexible depending on stage of training. Summer has tons of 5K races/charity races...can you consider a specific video on how to best get peaked and fit for a PR 5K? Should it be more 50/50 speedwork, is the long run tempo based, etc....you get the drift. Seems there's 10 marathon videos on KZbin for every one 5K video. Thanks for your wisdom. 🏃🏻‍♂

[@Vo2maxProductions]

we just came out with some Higher Running 5km training plans (and more advanced ones to come). Generall the long run would be more Easy focused and not super long. The ratio of intensity changes as the goal of the peak race becomes a matter of 3-6- week training blocks....but generally there is a lot of early on Speed and Effiecieny (like Stirdes and even 1-min and 400m rep workouts). Then things like the typical lactate threshold tempo (3 x 8min etc). But the real bread and butter for peaking is the Vo2max workouts (still used sparingly) and that's 800m and 1km repeats mainly.

[@Burps___]

@@Vo2maxProductions That is a great summary, thank you. I’ll look to the Sage Running training plans for a schedule, I’m an intermediate runner (30-40 miles per week) and don’t really have the personal time to up the mileage/hours on feet, so I am looking to run 5Ks all summer to effificnetly use my workout time and still have fun races. If I purchase and use one of your updated plans, I can accomplish my goal. Thank you! ☺️

[@earthquakemagoon2505]

Thanks Sage! Skål!

[@bev9708]

EXCELLENT, thanks coach!!! Can't agree with you that it's great that fitness influencers give training advice though, sorry, UNLESS that advice is to point us towards genuine experts who back their claims with good scientific evidence ! It always blows my mind that anyone would allow themselves to be influenced by someone on ANY topic who is not only not a qualified expert in that field but can't even point us towards any independent scientific evidence for their claims!!🤷‍♀ I DO greatly greatly appreciate the motivation and inspiration that non-experts can provide though, that can indeed be life changing!!!

[@EricS-uf9mv]

I understand your gripe regarding influencers overgeneralizing Zone 2. Yeah many probably don't understanding the underlying reasons it is effective. That's a valid criticism for professionals like yourself. But u need to acknowledge the VAST majority of runners are recreational & health focused. At best we are chasing PBs. Few of us are competing for anything of significance... unless you consider Strava bragging rights significant. Therefore the vast majority of ppl like myself who "run" will DRAMATICALLY improve our health metrics & overall performance simply by maximizing Time-On-Feet... which essentially translates into these over-generalized influencer tips about Zone 2, 80-20 training for the "masses". Cause let's get real... I/We *are* the "masses". Joe & Sue Public doesn't need to understand the mitochondrial stimulus promoted by Z2 to reap the rewards of slowing down... of constantly raising their aerobic baseline. I mean sure if you're a certain type of Pro then overdoing Zone 2 may not be maximally beneficial. Take someone like Femke Bol. I doubt she's doing 80mi weeks of long slow runs. Rather she's probably doing a ton of all-out, race specific VO2 stuff, + a ton of form/technique training, + a TON of strength & conditioning. 80/20 probably isn't applicable to an explosive 400m pro sprinter/hurdler winning gold on the world stage. But a poor slob like Me? More time-on-feet at Zone 2-3 is maximally beneficial bc I'm SO SO FAR below theoretical human limits. I will always have room to improve by simply 'Running more' INSTEAD of focusing on 1% gains through supplements, compression boots, altitude sleeping tents, drinking "ketones", and other nonsense designed to separate me from my wallet.

[@DrProfX]

Thanks for posting this, Sage! Also, it seems that literature suggests that zone 2 is the easiest/ healthiest for cardiovascular health/wellness … in fact, cardiology programs recommend that older/ master runners focus more on health than performance and even when doing intensity workouts it’s important to ease into it with zone 2 warm up and cool downs…👍

[@bencodunedin6634]

So I'm keen on the ultra of ultra's, the real grand traverse of mt cook new zealand. From hermatige hotel up tasman glacier and hochsteder ridge, up the linda glacier, over Mt cook grand traverse, down nth face and out hooker glacier back to hermatage hotel in 24 hr. As far as I know it's only ever been done once in 1999 by Crazy Callum. Most very fit himilayan type hard climbers/ ultra runners would take at least 36 hr climbing time over a couple a days with a break at plateau hut. As a slow 10k runner, 45 year old, heavy drinking chain smoker at the moment, what training plan would you recommend to become a 35 year old 24 hours of very continuous mid intensity activity for a very fit ultra runner, himilayan mt climber/guide involving fairly hard technical alpine terrain? As far as I know the next quickest was Al Uren, also a NZ mountain legend in the 2000's and he took over 30 hrs continuous.

[@mylim18e]

Thanks

[@Vo2maxProductions]

Thank you very much!!

[@dasdWARf]

If only strides got preached as higly about on socials as zone 2. I think a lot of people would benefit way more with these.

[@Vo2maxProductions]

truth!

[@bencodunedin6634]

25 years ago I used to run tramping tracks, up to the heaphy was 75km in a day, thruogh my 20's and 30's I kept running on and of recreationally, a climbing day of 15 hours was pretty normal, and on occasion a 20 hour alpine pass crosing in bad weather with a 35kg pack was not un common. The idea of the grand traverse in a day fucking amased me back then. How do I train to be far fitter than I ever was 20 years ago when I pretty much lived in the mountains?

[@dpc104]

Great talk as usual, I'm curious though, I've heard you say a few times that if injury / burn out wasnt an issue and you could sustain it, you would be better running tempo / above Z2 everyday. What about specific adaptations maximised by Z2 training though, specifically mitochondrial adaptstions improving fat oxidation etc which are not generated when glycolytic energy production is the primary source of fuel? Heard about lots of benefits from developing fat oxidation and aiding with lactate tolerance and recycling etc. Not to say intensity isnt super important and should def be included, but there are also important specific adaptations targeted with Z2 training which wont occur as efficiently or at all with more intense zones?

[@Vo2maxProductions]

Generally the lower intensity (low % heart rate values) ensures a high percentage of fat is being burned compared to carbs (glycogen). There of course is benefit with pretty much both Zone 2 and Zon3 with a nearly 100% aerobic stimulus (from capillary bed density to mitochondira size and density) as well as Running Economy boosts. So yes, fat oxidation can become more efficient (but it also occurs in states of glycogen depletion anyway). So with harder training you may burn more glycogen faster (and run "low") with high mileage training and minimal recovery. For lactate Tolerance you for sure need Zone 4 and Zone 5.....same for actual Vo2max boosts. But the Aerobic system and lower intensity training (and lots of it!) certainly influences how those peaks in Vo2max and Lactate Threshold are determined....even if the higher intensity training is what eventually fine tunes those values.

[@SamirMishra6174]

The arm band idea is much better

[@HowlingFantods]

I enjoy doing a tempo everyday (on the bike). I cant help but pushing in workouts.

[@JTD33]

I'm really curious about what you said about zone 2 being mostly about injury prevention once a base fitness exists. Let's say I run only 3 times per week but do other cardiovascular exercise about 3 times per week mostly in zone 2. Once I've consistently been at a target weekly mileage of running (all zone 2), would it be realistic to very gradually start increasing the intensity and then eventually end up with all three weekly sessions being quite intensive? Let's say 1 tempo, 1 intervals and 1 long with blocks at target race pace (for example HM)? In this scenario the running would be very far from 80/20 but perhaps quite close when also considering the cross-training.

[@quengmingmeow]

In my opinion, most people don’t do 80-20 because they simply don’t believe it works. Others do buy in to it, but still don’t execute well because they don’t know their max HR and/or they are using a wrist HR watch/monitor. Do a max HR test and get a chest strap (or arm strap). That’s the only real way to know. Short of that, a good proxy would be to pick a pace you consider “easy”, and run your normal daily amount every single day for 3 weeks straight. Are you tired/feeling fatigued after that 3 weeks? You’re going too hard….dial it back. Chances are, what you consider easy isn’t easy enough. I have only been able to get cumulative fatigue from Z2 when I am doing in excess of 90 minutes per day every day. Z2 is literally a “run all day pace” once you are fully fit.

[@goodyeoman4534]

Most people I see just don't follow the basic principles so I just leave them to it. It's ridiculous when you see a 40yo new to running doing tempo runs, hill sprints and fancy intervals stuff. They just can't accept that it takes a few months to build that aerobic base. I did 3 months of nothing but easy runs, starting at 45 mins and building up to a 90 min one before settling into a 60 mins one 4x week. Got 18:50 5K just from that. No one believes me though.

[@odarge]

top of my zone 2 is my MAF top heart rate value (180-age +5). Top 👍 👌 (cfr Dr Maffetone yellow book). (I’m runner (up to marathon 3:11:00), and road cyclist. No injuries. 54 yr old). Easy trainings are great ! American 🇺🇸 coach Jack Daniels tells about the same with Easy trainings. also, listen to your body as they say. it’s true.

[@henrybellamy6809]

Why does your fitness drop quicker when doing tempo runs as it helps your fitness peak quickly?

[@johnl1275]

So it sounds like you are including zone 3 in with the 20%, not the 80%? I always thought that Zone 3 was the zone you were trying to avoid. For me personally, avoiding zone 3 is hard as that is the easiest zone to run in. So my other question would be what zone do you consider the lactic threshold to occur in? Right now my lactic threshold is 167BPM and so I consider that the start of my zone 4.

[@Vo2maxProductions]

Yes, I'm inclusing Zone 3 in the 20%. I consider it to be the aerobic threshold....I consider it very valuable. At higher running we call it "Upempo" and for a lot of people it is around Marathon race pace. I consider lactate threshold to be the Zone 4 realm and Zone 5 is Vo2max and above.

[@KreaganOCR]

What are your thoughts on of indoor cycling in Zone 2 when unable to run? Is it close to the same aerobic training? Obviously diff physical training

[@ZenEndurance]

Yeah I don’t know what happened with google adsense. I used to make some money with it but it died out.

[@zaphod2]

Is the Coros HR monitor as reliable as a cheststrap? The Forerunner 965 doesn't work for me at all, unless im on a bike, so I'm lookig for an alternative.

[@Vo2maxProductions]

i've found it to be just as reliable as say an $80 Polar H10 or Garmin chest strap. All HR monitors can trip errors at times (low battery, not tight enough, static/clothing interference etc). But it is surprisingly accurate I'd say.

[@hectorguzman6122]

Can i pair coros HRM with my Garmin gps watch Thanks sage Very happy to keep posting in this Chanel

[@pierceyboo3594]

Any chance for 1 mile race plans coming out in the near future? Loving the other plans!

[@bikerdude6119]

Is 80/20 and zone 2/3 training crucial for running ultras or is better for marathons

[@tri0xin]

uh oh.. how far off is my apple watch :) I'm 49 and my average is 150'ish for 2 years of wearing the apple watch.. 172 max today on 6x1mile repeats. used a chest strap before that and it was always annoying. May have to give the coros strap a shot. 80 days standby and 33 hours looks pretty awesome. .that was the first metric I looked up.

[@janis8161]

I was wondering if its okay to run zone 3 for most runs if there is only 2-3runs per week. I wouldnt thinks recovery would be an issue

[@lisousmusic]

I like a bit of Z1 a bit of Z4 and majority Z2+3

[@paulwhalley6789]

Zone 3 just seems pointless. Fatiguing your body for minimal gain.

[@yowhat-mo6xo]

What your opinion on hicham el guerrouj training the mile world record holder. Running 4:40 mile pace on his easier aerobic runs.

[@kevinclark5086]

I think exact accuracy isnt the aim of running watches its consistency over a period of time. No one trains in a lab everyday. In the 3 garmin watches ive had ive found them all to be consistent with each other over the 3 years. Like you said zone 2 is a wide spectrum from lower range to high range. And its even effectected by food and caffiene consumption. RPE (rate of perceived effort) is a much easier way to gauge training runs imo.

[@goodyeoman4534]

People definitely get fixated on it. I run by time, usually, for my easy runs. So long as I'm in the correct rough pace zone, I don't check the watch too often.

[@huemaj6931]

It's so hard to be in Zone 2 when i running outside, but on treadmil is much easier to be in zone 2, and often i just get incline about on 10 on speed 5.2 to be in zone 2, i walk most the time (to be in zone 2) is that ok, or I use eliptical machine to be in zone 2. Does this count if my heart rate monitor show me that i'am in zone 2, but I don't run

[@nicholas5396]

I was under the impression the 80/20 rule is time based for the percentage of volume, not mileage

[@FreeBeerMonkey]

It applies to recovery. If you are only running two times a week it doesn't make sense to follow 80/20 rule. I'd go for perhaps 50/50 in that case. As you increase your mileage and session count you'll naturally start to approach 80/20 ratio as you won't be able to recover from constant hammering.

[@insertrandomnamehere764]

So you're saying is should sprint everyday till i can sprint a marathon quicker than kipchoge. Sounds doable.

[@renskrijgsman]

Sage curious about the impressive dashboard on your screen, what application is it? 😊

[@bobjackson3735]

Coros

[@tonys6237]

I've averaged 75 miles per week for the last 16 weeks at mostly easy pace. I'm not sure what pace to run next week in my marathon.

[@Vo2maxProductions]

that's some really solid and consistent volume! I'd consider what pace and training you did before your last marathon race (or any recent half marathon improvements?).

[@tonys6237]

@@Vo2maxProductions Thanks Sage. I should add that despite only taking two days off running in the past 16 weeks, I'm actually feeling good. I'm also pleased that I've managed to run a little more than Kofuzi (according to Strava) and I'm hoping this will pay off with a similar time to his 😁 I've put in this kind of voluming before so I'm hoping that I can at least do myself proud and not bonk!

[@tonys6237]

@@Vo2maxProductions Sage, if you could only recommend one thing for a good marathon time would it be volume or speed?

[@Vo2maxProductions]

@@tonys6237 well since we're coaching Kofuzi I can tell you that we've been having him do a lot of workouts in the 6:20 to 6:00 per mile pace ranges. It takes more than just easy miles for sure, but it depends on the person, their experience level and their genetics (as well as mental mindset and other lifestyle factors). One certainly get reach their best potential in the marathon without a lot of speedwork though.

[@ivanivanov7617]

I am running from 8 months. Currently my weekly volume is around 30 miles but i struggle to increase it because i feel like i can not recover. I am running 5 times per week with 2 tempo runs, 1 long run and the other are easy. My question is should i remove the tempo runs and try to increase my overall running volume? My PR 5k is 25 minutes.

[@Vo2maxProductions]

hey great to hear! I wouldn't follow a strict 7 day cyce....that is i' wouldn't do 2 tempo runs a week (or even a longer run each week). That can certainly tire you out. Maybe try running all slow and easy for 6 days a week and try for 35 and then eventually 40-miles. Then come back down and try only 1 Tempo run a week. Add in strides and take it easy mainly. Eventually you can add in Vo2max and other speed work as that will be needed to lower the 5km PR...but generally you might be able to do it by running more 6 days a week and closer to 40-miles a week.

[@ivanivanov7617]

@@Vo2maxProductions Thank you!

[@pb2959]

Tempo every day. Got it.

[@diederiklegrange7248]

Is 80 20 percentages based on time duration, or distance? Surely time duration is more accurate?

[@Vo2maxProductions]

for a flat road runner it's mainly distance as duration goes along with pace very well. For trail runners it can be more time based (especially if doing hill repeats or all -uphill tempo runs on a mountain!).

[@againstdrivingdrunk614]

when I hire yoou for 72 1/2.... theres something i'm very very certain of,and thats double med long weekends, so that is the one thing im certain of and will not vary from even if you don't want.... - J

[@ricardiumhues]

Ok so my garmin considers recovery time spent at high hr counts as the higher zone stuff but I suspect that it's the pace not the HR that counts. If it takes a while for my HR to drop when in recovery intervals, should this count towards the 80 or the 20? Unfortunately it's been pretty slow since I got back into running after having my daughter

[@ithinkthereforeitalk935]

You should treat your entire running session as HIIT training if you do intervals during it.

[@ricardiumhues]

@@ithinkthereforeitalk935 see that's he way I used to think but I'm on the Higher Running Training plan and it's like 60-70% interval if that's the case

[@ithinkthereforeitalk935]

@@ricardiumhues then, that's the case. You should either increase you overall training volume or decrease the number of your interval /threshold training sessions.

[@ricardiumhues]

@@ithinkthereforeitalk935 yeah just means significant deviation from the training plan. Not sure if I can get my mileage above 80km per week. My wife is already grumpy I take too long...

[@Vo2maxProductions]

I just simply wouldn't trust your Garmin. You can do a really hard effort and it might say you're "undertrained and unproductive".....or you can do an easy effort and it might tell you to "rest for 72 hours"....especially if you don't have a dedicated HR strap that is separate from the watch.

[@peterh.1521]

Thanks Sage. I agree. Maybe zone 1 is better for newbies, as they build up an aerobic base? And perhaps Zone 2 more for experience athletes (for the same reason)? In any case, I myself have "rediscovered" Zone 1 as being good for me, even though I have running for almost 20 years daily. It is something very healing and calming with that zone, mentally and physically. We all need this aerobic base you mentioned to peak higher and longer. Greetings from Sweden 🇸🇪

[@StuartFingerhut]

Hi, Where do you live to access those trails?

[@Vo2maxProductions]

in middle of the state of Colorado (surrounded by the big mountains!)

[@againstdrivingdrunk614]

hey, iff by dec? im hiring your coaching for a 72 half goal? - J

[@James-qy7pz]

Sage, how many easy miles per week do you have your marathon+ athletes run prior to adding in speedwork? Say for someone trying to go sub 3 hour.

[@Vo2maxProductions]

depends on the athlete, their experience level, injury history and current mileage and current goals. Generally for our Higher Running BQ Marathon plan we need people being used to running well over 45-50 miles a week pretty consistently and it often takes people running over 55-miles to up to 80 miles a week to go sub 3 hours. This also helps because we want a 20-mile Long Run to be in the program but not exceed 35% of their weekly volume in a single session.

[@NathanJr_93]

First comment !!