992: How Mormon Fundamentalist Views LDS Church (Josh Thompson 1 of 4)

[@RyanMercer]

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[@Pokephantom]

Catching up. Josh is great! Also thanks for the fun comments all!

[@joshuathompson1357]

Thank you so much! I appreciate you!

[@tyleranderson4921]

Great interview.

[@GospelTangents]

Thanks!

[@carlecarl42]

That was very interesting. Cody Brown is the only AUB I have ever heard.

[@GospelTangents]

I have interviews with Joe Jessop and Moroni Jessop who are both former AUB members.

[@rosastephens8966]

Excellent discussion. Looking forward to more

[@wesleyrhoten8505]

12:00 to 12 35, Thompson states that the UAB believes the LDS Church remains as the "Rightful" church and then continuing, that the UAB is a "lowly group of Apostates trying to keep things alive." How best to interpret? Is he saying that the UAB is taking upon itself the burden of continuing the eternal principal of plural marriage until Jesus' return? Ie, someone has to do it, and the LDS Church has abdicated this crucial responsibility? This aspect of "the fulness of the Gospel?"

[@GospelTangents]

Not sure, but the fundamentalist groups have fractured so much, there are probably a dozen groups trying to keep polygamy alive. AUB is hardly solo.

[@Bittersteel24]

Yes the AUB belief is the LDS is the true church but is out of order for not living or teaching the fullness of the gospel. For instance plural marriage, united order, original temple rites, original garments and a handful of other things. They were commissioned by Jesus and JS through John Taylor to keep these practices alive even if forced out of the church. So they believe they are the priesthood but outside the legal structure of the church. Similar to how Lehi and his descendants were a priesthood line outside of the main one back in Israel

[@joshuathompson1357]

Bittersteel24 gave a very accurate description of our group I feel like :) In our belief, the Church is the lesser organization out of the three (Priesthood, Political Kingdom, Church).

[@wesleyrhoten8505]

@@joshuathompson1357 thank you for the clarification. Your discussion with Rick is fascinating; God Speed!

[@joshuathompson1357]

​@@wesleyrhoten8505 Thank you!

[@rosastephens8966]

@ 28:24 is he referring to one of the infamous Le Baron brothers?

[@GospelTangents]

I doubt it.

[@joshuathompson1357]

Not directly, no. Though perhaps it was one of them! I'll have to ask my Mother and see if she knows :)

[@alanyoung6572]

Thanks!

[@GospelTangents]

You're awesome!

[@alanyoung6572]

@ Very little $ for an interesting program. Have you ever encountered Dr Roger Billings and "The True Dream of Zion,"?

[@GospelTangents]

@alanyoung6572 I have not heard of it.

[@weirdlanguageguy]

Very cool discussion :)

[@oscaresquivel8955]

I know that the AUB in the past had some relationship with Margaritos's Bautistas remnant in Ozumba, Mexico, What would be their current relationship?

[@GospelTangents]

Bautista's group, "The Third Convention", eventually reconciled with the LDS Church in the 1930s, I believe. I also believe The current AUB temple is in Ozumba.

[@joshuathompson1357]

Margarito Bautista was actually kicked out of the third convention for his beliefs on polygamy and united order. I know he was ordained to the AUB council after Rulon Allred, and was a pivotal event that helped finalize the split between the AUB and FLDS.

[@oscaresquivel8955]

​​@@joshuathompson1357 That's right, thats why I ask, From doing research I know for a fact that Colonia Industrial in Ozumba is where all of Margarito Bautista's group settled after braking away from the third convention. They later had ties to the AUB and Rulon Allred and Joseph Musser visited Bautistas Group. I also know that both the Bautistas Saints and The AUB have Claims over the Ozumba Temple. I would like to know if they are one single organization. Adding to this same topic and other being commented; you mentioned Margarito Bautista was Ordained, does this mean Mexicans or Hispanics in General can become members and Priesthood holders in The Allred Group?

[@joshuathompson1357]

@oscaresquivel8955 The group in Ozumba is one of our branches and they recognize our leaders as the ones holding the keys to the Kingdom. The temple there is an AUB temple :) So yes, in answer to your question:)

[@oscaresquivel8955]

@@joshuathompson1357 Thanks.

[@heberfrank8664]

I am curious. Is there a controversy over David Watson with the group in Pinesdale like there was over Lynn Thompson? Or has the Pinesdale group reconciled with the AUB leaders?

[@looshes841]

@heberfrank8664 Pinesdale is still currently split religiously. Some are in the AUB, whereas others are not.

[@Bittersteel24]

Lynn Thompson caused the split, when Dave Watson became the president of the priesthood it was already expected because he was next in line after Lynn. So the pinesdale division was under Lynn and I suppose still persists under David but not directly caused by his assumption to leadership

[@joshuathompson1357]

Again here, Bittersteel24 gave a perfect explanation I feel. I'm wondering if he/she is a member or a former member :)

[@GospelTangents]

@bittersteel24 thank you for the explanation. I was never clear why the group split in Pinesdale.

[@heberfrank8664]

@@looshes841 thanks for the info

[@can_ye_feel_so_now]

The gift of tongues is very much alive! How else do you think the Gospel has been preached to more than 160 nations world wide? I've seen it coming up in the church as a convert and I saw it on my mission. Loved the video but there are many things out of order with this group, specially the believe in the curse of Cain that they still hold on too. I noticed he dodged that part when asked about it lol. If they believe in the curse of Cain because Brigham Young taught it, why don't they go back to what Joseph Smith taught about it instead? The prophet of the restoration, the same one who gave the priesthood to Elijah Able and wanted to adopt a black woman as his daughter along with Emma. Why do they feel the need to hold on to these teachings? Don't they believe that the church is lead by revelation? Christ said, "the truth shall set you free," and the truth is that prophets are not infallible. The scriptures teach that, and even the prophets of this last dispensation have taught it.... Strange... very strange.

[@joshuathompson1357]

Very good thoughts here. I definitely agree that God influences missionaries when it comes to speaking different languages. I've heard several missionaries tell me stories about how they were terrified for their first time using a different language, but it naturally flowed out of them at a level that felt impossible. I firmly believe that these instances are the direct result of the Lord working upon the missionaries and their work, but for me and my understanding of it, it's not the same thing as speaking in tongues. The spiritual blessing of speaking in tongues involves actually speaking a different language, with no prior knowledge, and is directly followed up by someone who interprets it who also had no prior knowledge of the language. I do believe the church has a much different understanding of what the gift of speaking in tongues entails compared to my own belief and understanding. And in regards to the Priesthood ban, my answer is still the same. It's really not beneficial to talk about it. I've done down that road in the past and people are not able to work around the concept of racism. I've learned to be perfectly content and happy with people believing what they choose to about me and about my religious faith. I might be bothered if there was even the slightest inkling of thought that my religion actually was endorsing racism. That said, I'm much more prone to talk about that specific issue in private if it's something you're interested in. I love talking about religion :)

[@can_ye_feel_so_now]

​@@joshuathompson1357 First and foremost, thank you for your response. You also have to know, I'm an active black member of the church. With that said, you need to know that I’m not calling you a racist in any way. This issue of the curse of Cain is one that I’ve had to wrestle with and I’m thankful for the rich history that exists in the early days of the church in regards to this problem that has allowed me to overcome such a dark history… and it was dark. I’ve come to the conclusion that most people who adhere to this type of thinking are not evil, rather without knowing it, view the gospel through a lens that is very limiting and does not allow for the individual to think outside the box or to even wrestle with God in a healthy way about many things. Because of the protestant background of the LDS movement, many false traditions of Protestantism naturally were injected within the culture and doctrine of the church, and from my own search for answers, the root cause of this doctrine is Sola Scriptura. As Latter Day Saints, we believe in revelation, but oftentimes and for sure historically, we have not acted like it, I say we because I include myself in this error as one being in the church for more than 20 years. I have no doubt that the false doctrine of Sola Scriptura is very much linked with the saints sticking to their guns on this issue. And if you wish a further conversation about that, We can surely have one. As far as the gift of tongues go, I’ll share a story from my mission. I served in the Salt Lake Valley, and we used to bring people to temple square all the time. I served in Spanish. One day, we brought a family over, we then started to teach alongside the sister missionaries at temple square. One of the sisters was a native Spanish speaker while the other one was American. As we would go around and teach, from time to time, the American sister would whisper in the ear of the native speaking sister things that would fit perfectly with the lesson and the doubts that this family had. The lesson went great and at the end, we had a brief discussion with the sisters as to how the lessons went. I then praised the American sister for her powerful insights and asked her how long she has been practicing Spanish. She then said, “I don’t know any Spanish whatsoever.” “8 And again, I exhort you, my brethren, that ye deny not the gifts of God, for they are many; and they come from the same God. And there are different ways that these gifts are administered; but it is the same God who worketh all in all; and they are given by the manifestations of the Spirit of God unto men, to profit them. 16 And again, to another, the interpretation of languages and of divers kinds of tongues. 17 And all these gifts come by the Spirit of Christ; and they come unto every man severally, according as he will.” -Moroni 10 I have personally been a witness to these gifts, and I testify to you that they happen all the time. The trick to seeing them in action, is being involved in the work. And missionary work is the best place to see this work in action. If you are not involved in the work, you won't see them, and you will be left saying that God is not working miracles anymore.

[@GospelTangents]

Josh gave a very diplomatic answer for which I am appreciative. I get annoyed when people purposely conflate missionaries learning a language with glossolalia. It seems intentionally designed to confuse the issue and is not appreciated. People in the Kirtland Temple were not speaking Japanese or any other foreign language. Brigham Young was known to do glossolalia regularly. When we were referring to speaking in tongues, it was pretty clear we weren't talking about speaking a foreign language like Chinese. We were talking about glossolalia, and that is not only not practiced in the modern church, it is actively discouraged. On the other hand, groups like Bickertonites, Hedrickites, and Pentecostals actively practice glossolalia and recognize it as a sign of the spirit. It's exactly why Josh called the church out of order for no longer practicing glossolalia. To confuse this with missionaries speaking a foreign language is not helpful to the conversation. I'm not sure if it was intentional or not, (I hope not, but fear it was) but it is a misrepresentation of what we were talking about.

[@GospelTangents]

In part 2, we'll dive into the racism discussion a little bit more. Josh, I believe you when say you have good feelings toward black people. I really encourage you to watch my interview with Moroni Jessop. We dive deeply into the issue of racism in fundamentalism. Your group may not have malice toward black people, but the mere fact that blacks are (1) not welcome in your group, and (2) not allowed to be a priesthood holder, and (3) not allowed to be sealed is by definition an exclusion based on race. Whether you have good feelings toward them is irrelevant. It is a form of discrimination based on a person's race. That is by definition, racism. A person doesn't have to have malice towards blacks for racism to exist. Once again, I believe your group harbors no ill will toward blacks. But denying them essential religious ordinances is discrimination based on race. Joseph Smith approved black men to be ordained. It seems likely he was willing to adopt Jane Manning James into his family. To deny blacks sealing and priesthood ordination was and is out of order with Joseph Smith. For an excellent conversation on this topic, please watch my interview with Moroni Jessop. He discusses the Thompsonite movement too. kzbin.info/www/bejne/oJDCkJ6jq5J_mqc

[@joshuathompson1357]

@@GospelTangents I think I might actually have some learning to do on this subject. I had understood that speaking in tongues actually WAS a specific language. Have you read something in Mormon history that has led to your understanding that it's not a specific language?