A Blue Belt Submits a Black Belt with a Choke Over the Chin

[@BernardoFariaBJJ]

What are your thoughts?

[@b4dmaash]

Ask Robert Whittaker UFC

[@sixelepe2841]

Yes, some blue belts feel like submitting black belts is cool. Just be careful. The black belt would have decided to come next time to roll, being mean and aiming to injure you, and probably you wouldn't like it. You go to the dojo for training, not to compete. If you want to feel cool submitting black belts, go to a competition. The blue belt is acting stupid and immature.

[@dmtjnani9951]

On a black belt’s back. A lower belt should never tap higher belts; they let you move. If you got to the back , he let you. And, use only technique not strength to tap anyone; in other words, not jaw breaking. But whatever. Bernardo is right, talk to people. And recall this is chess, not a sport. Aum & oss

[@anomalistic3046]

Just tap and then show them why you are a black belt!

[@808frontline]

I think BJJ guys complain about everything. Don’t use your elbows to pry open the legs cuz it hurts Don’t choke over the chin WHY THO??! cuz it hurts Don’t do heel hooks in gi ? The BJJ community had forgot that Jiujitsu was made for street self defense not for mat sports. You can’t tell a bad guy hey stop, your wearing pants and a jacket don’t heel hook me! Don’t do neck cranks! Why tho ?! Don’t do leg locks as a blue belt or whatever You should be able to do every submission under the sun as long as you have three things! PROPER SQUEEZE, CRANK and PRESSURE PROGRESSION THROUGH THE TECHNIQUE. Rolling should be utilized as a way to test a students ability to apply the technique of the day and the show his or her comprehension of Jiujitsu principles such as technique, timing, leverage etc Maybe only the last few rolls of the day should be dedicated to searching for whatever submission you can get. Too much complaining from the Jiujitsu community Too much ego Too much superiority complex Too many silly ass names for these new guards which are not really guards but simple points of transitioning All in All, Jiujitsu is still an amazing super power. People should swallow their prides and just have fun learning and rolling Respect the tap mthrfkrs!!! People who don’t respect the tap should be charged for Malicious intent and assault

[@TheOddStranger]

I thought he was talking about Chimaev 😂

[@martialartsstudent421]

Same 😂

[@backyardfarmer6090]

Fractured jaw 💀

[@tsibren]

Guilty😂

[@esolthailand7439]

Haha

[@ByronC900]

Tucking your chin only protects you if the opponent doesn’t want to hurt you or be “rude”. It’s not a full defense and should never be relied on. Same as tucking your chin in boxing. It’s a layer of defense, but not a magic move.

[@scandallpower]

100%

[@trg808]

Case in point: Robert Whitaker got his chin crushed in the UFC last night

[@generallobster]

Tucking your chin is is a defense like hand fighting. It's not going to protect you forever, and you definitely need to do something to get out of the defensive cycle, but if you don't do it at all, you are giving them a direct path to your extended neck and it's going to be over very soon. If they are not on your teeth or nose with their radius, trying to break those small protuberances off your face, then it actually buys you quiet a bit of time, like it can be minutes long. There are many people who cannot pass the watermelon squeeze test. For people who don't possess the strength to crush a watermelon easily, you can let them try to choke you with your chin tucked, and many people, particularly beginners, can't do anything until they do something else, to get you to open your neck for them to slip the arm under. Most people are not Kamzat. I agree that you have to do more than just tuck, but it's not like this instinct does nothing to help defend against the RNC. We've all probably positionally spared the entire 5 min round with a lower belt on our back trying to RNC, and the only defense we need sometimes is to just tuck and let them try. You need a certain amount of strength and technique to really hurt someone when the choke is above the neck. Yes, if it's the street, then they can grab your eyes with both hands and insert their fingers into the socket and pull your head back, or they can elbow you in the neck and the back of the head, or they can strike your face from the back until you give up the tuck, and yes, they are trying to be rude and hurt you in those cases, but I'm just saying, it's not wrong to tuck your chin.

[@Никита-щ6г9з]

​@@trg808he had a jaw ussue though

[@todd2324]

It happens, it's not a big deal. Once you get a black belt, know that you're still human and will get old and slow eventually. The belt doesn't give you superpowers.

[@otucanal-wv2rt]

as with most situations, being respectful and talking openly goes a long way.

[@efu6433]

I’m a blue belt and train in a small town gym. Our upper belts (Brown and Black) don’t care what you do to them. It’s when you are rolling with the other students, they will get on to you for not getting a clean choke/strangle.

[@OlimaOmega]

He should’ve tapped 🤷🏿‍♂️ you can still get a blood choke through the chin. Tucking the chin is not rnc defence

[@r3o]

Agreed on all points

[@drgalvanimd]

no stripes for you this christmas! :D

[@krseaster]

You should always be able to defend yourself. If you don't know how, tap and figure it out. There is too much crying in this sport now. If someone brings that energy, you have to match it. We talk about using bjj in the street, but can't handle common simple situations on the ground. Get rid of all of this ego based drama.

[@johndough1218]

Well said!

[@tbaker2k]

This is COMPLETELY the black belt's fault. If you are the black belt, you are the adult in the rolling relationship. If you feel something that is not going to be safe or see that things are heading in a wrong direction. Tap. Stop everything. And if something truly not acceptable is happening, you have the opportunity to guide the lower rank. When he felt the squeeze, he just should have tapped. If there needed to be a moment where he said, this is the expectation here, on these mats, he should have had it in a way that encourages community and teamwork. Getting upset and berating someone for something they thought was ok is immature and, to me, does not reflect how a black belt should behave. NOW... If this dude had been coached on this multiple times before and is still choosing to do something that is not acceptable... OR if the individual told them before the roll, I have this injury so please be aware of that, that could be a different conversation. But still, it's up to the more experienced person to stop things before they go too far.

[@هذاأنا-ذ3ث]

I am a brown belt and I get submitted by blue belts every now and then. Sometimes I tap because I don't want to damage my teeth or dislocate my jaw. It's okay, just tap. If I feel the person is malicious and trying to hurt others, I don't roll with them and let the head coach know.

[@mouthguardcomic]

Ditto, a dentist messed up my jaw and it is sensitive now. If I get caught in the wrong position, I just tap. It's better than a week of pain waiting for my jaw to reset itself.

[@GMunoz-oj5zb]

Same here brown belt 46 Year old . I have gotten tapped by a 16 year old blue belt. Doesn’t make me less because I have gotten tapped by a lower belt

[@Никита-щ6г9з]

That's a beautiful thread

[@TheSteakSammich]

Belts are not an objective measure of skill or efficacy. Anyone can get got. It is what it is. Bernardo's nuanced opinion is refreshing, but something tells me the Black Belt was just mad he got tapped.

[@25yearsnow]

Yeah it sounded like it was more of an ego thing than anything else. Sure, tell the blue belt to be careful going over the chin -- but don't make a scene. It just makes the black belt look bad.

[@mouthguardcomic]

@@25yearsnow It doesn't matter, but less people would have noticed too. I've had lower ranks tap me and I just keep it moving. Sometimes, they will say later that I let them get it and I have to tell them they legitimately tapped me. Rolling tens to hundreds of times with the same guys will lead to taps (on both sides).

[@dr.options]

What did you think of the submission Robert Whittaker tapped to that crushed his jaw in yesterday's UFC?

[@buckboogie7685]

That’s a real fight!!!

[@nicks.901]

Completely different environment of sport.

[@dr.options]

@@nicks.901 no doubt. I'm still curious about his thoughts.

[@testtube9423]

Completely legit and this is all ego.

[@jamesmcjamesington631]

​@@nicks.901 Sport? This is Martial Arts. Key word "martial". Killing isnt a sport.

[@25yearsnow]

Robert Whittaker had his chin clamped by Chimaev and he broke his jaw. Unless you have a solid hand under the arm, just open your chin and tap. It's not worth getting your jaw dislocated.

[@nicholasnj3778]

Agree, and sometimes if your stong enough you lift the chin to defend, that is it 1 opens room for you to breathe 2 it gives you room to grab the wrist with both hands… not always but sometimes (or fight it to the buzzer, depending how much time is left) then if this defense doesn’t work just tap

[@ln9296]

I am a white belt, but the black belts at my gym teach that anything below the eyes counts as a choke. My take is be respectful and put submissions on slow, but if you don't like a situation, you can always tap.

[@mouthguardcomic]

When someone has a good hold on me, I tap (regardless of rank). Fighting guillotines, rear naked chokes (fully locked in), etc., leads to chronic neck stiffness, pain, etc. I try not to put myself in those positions (unless I'm working on something), but it is no shame to tap and keep training. Get better, not angry.

[@gailvalleymartialarts]

What timing! "A Brown belt submits a Black Belt with a Choke Over the Chin" could have been the title for a discussion on yesterday's UFC 308

[@clayton97330]

Broke the jaw bone, too

[@Slamminbassplayer]

Sage words! I’d add that while we are all trusting our partners to not hurt us, it’s the coach’s job to keep dangerous people off their mats in order to protect the culture of the gym. This “weirdness” (beef) will eventually erode a gym’s culture as overall trust begins to diminish. Ossss!

[@kipholscher1812]

It comes down to maturity. If I'm trying at my gym, and I'm not actually under the chin, I won't squeeze. I don't have to "win" at the gym. I'll adjust or move to something else. It comes down to knowing what you have, or don't have.

[@JPHolling]

Black belts always crush my face 😂

[@Jarg555]

This happened to me yesterday too. Dude was squeezing over my jaw, it hurt but I wasn’t close to tapping

[@flanker909]

There was a guy like that in the academy I used to train in, last thing I remember was seeing him holding his elbow and heading to the locker room. He ended up rolling with our coach who got him trapped in an armbar hold and refused to tap. Last time I saw him in our gym. Leave your ego the the door.

[@JeremyDay-y7n]

I once heard a story about this. The same type of situation occurred, but it was a black belt that did a similar thing to a new white belt. The white belt complained and said, "you smashed my face." The black belt replied, "next time, lift your chin." If your face hurts, give up your neck or tap. End of story. I actually don't apply much pressure in rolling. The fact is, it creates bad habits in competitions that are hard to break.

[@PachouMMA]

I’m a brown belt I got submitted before by a blue belt through training

[@KosRoss]

Tucking the chin in is not rnc defense like a lot of people already said here. Jaw compression is as much effective as clean rnc and if applied slow with gradually increasing force should give plenty of time to tap or remove the chin and then tap few sec afterwards. Fully closed rnc if applied correctly is 100% to finish no matter where the chin is. I think it’s ego issues with this black belt. Submission holds can be really annoying when they actually don’t do anything to you rather then discomfort and lower belts tend to hold everything they got for dear life, but fully locked rnc is going to work for sure.

[@Kapauhawaii]

Lower belts by nature fixate on submission, higher belts by nature feed off of an opponents movements. And the submissions just show themselves. Jiu jitsu is more about tapping 1 million times to get really good than it is about celebrating your submissions. If we’re training with a team it’s important to be on both ends of the stick, being submitted and submitting, your teammates deserve to try their submissions. The difference here is if you have a clean submission, a sloppy submission, simply a pain compliance submission or a good old asphyxiation, whenever someone submits me regardless of how we got there or how long the match I always critique and let them know if it was clean or if I was tapping just to protect my teeth from cracking! But in combat, there’s a big difference between how someone seals the deal and their opponent is either incapacitated or if someone seals the deal in a way that their opponent can keep fighting. That’s why it’s important to communicate with students and refine submissions to be clean and affective. When you rear naked choke on top of the jaw sometimes it compresses the teeth, neck or the vertebrae. Students need to know that they could fuck up their friends neck just trying to get them to tap. It’s always best to communicate well so that people learn to get meaningful submissions. Whatever that is. So over the jaw over the face and pull subs sometimes work but in most cases it’s not going to render a worthy opponent incapacitated that is what we weigh a clean effective submission by 🤙🏽

[@homelessmans2cents675]

I was rolling with a purple belt (I’m a 3 stripe white belt) about 10 seconds left he had me in armbar position on the ground but I was holding my wrist so he couldn’t extend it. He started to really, really get it. He didn’t get it and got up and started to throw a temper tantrum. So I introduced myself shaking his hand and it calmed him down 🫤

[@ginonajiola4326]

It’s interesting that everyone automatically agrees that the blue belt is saying exactly what happened and not just his perspective. What is more than likely is that the blue belt did something that he is not even aware of.

[@liukang85]

lol your speculation isn't better than the guy's word

[@BoomyXialijian]

If it hurts, it works! Yeah there needs to be a bit of etiquette in jiu-jitsu imo, especially in training, due to the intense physical nature of the sport and art. That said, I didn't see what happened.

[@DaveJos]

Look at Robert Whitakers jaw

[@Floridamanjiujitsu]

What the General says go’s!

[@Hangar1318]

Wait arent you talking about the Chimaev Whittaker fight?

[@newenglandguitarman3345]

Tap early & often. People love to say they “ leave ego at the door” in BJJ, but few actually do. They let “rank identity” go too far at times. That being said as a 56 year old black belt I’m very selective with whom I do live rolls these days 😉

[@jamesdolan9702]

It's training not a fight. If someone really want to test themselves then go fight somewhere. A lot of options to choose from.

[@chrispiggott8386]

See the results of what happened to Whitaker vs Chimaev

[@chromecannon2536]

upper belts notgonna give him any room to play after that?

[@pedroboschibrasil]

You said it Bernardo! Looks like it’s ego!

[@Owl-of-Minerva]

Black belt needs to learn from Henry Akins or Pritt Mihkelson.

[@TheArtofGuitar]

The Khamzat? ;)

[@TIKOMIX]

The Black Belt was in the right up until the overaction. Over the chin rear naked can put pressure on the jaw and teeth when your choking forearm pronates and the forearm bone starts driving into the chin and lower teeth. No video so I'm just speculating. Under the nose is defineity a breach on etiquette. Now did the black belt over react? Yes...Tap to the position and then talk to the blue belt on why that's not cool. Screaming and yelling like the blue belt should've known better after what? 2-3 years of training? That's clearly not enough time to learn mat etiquette. Maybe JJ Dojos should simply put up lists or signs on what's not allowed...Like Kana Basami.

[@JohnDoe-rs4fl]

Anything under the eyebrows is the neck.

[@anoslife83]

Dear Bernardo may opinion is everything should get trained unless could get hurt! Even over Chin and Nose if the never can train that in a safe environment like the Gym how should they use it in Competition? Train as you fight without nobody get hurt! I see in my Gym where I train the hunting mostly for points and because of that they are losing the most of there fights then, because the losing the opportunity for Submissions! I see also a lot of Black Belts they get angry or pissed off when the have to tap against a lower belt! I think it is an ego thing or maybe someone should get promoted soon! Kind regards Oliver from the little tiny country Switzerland

[@lapurdy71]

Could be an instructor ego issue, but seems more likely the student has a pattern of using lots of strength to damage/discomfort people into tapping rather than working technique in casual rolls.

[@dingo9696]

Tucking the chin as a defense is something I stopped doing as a white belt. It is not a real defense. No excuses for still doing that bullshit as a blackbelt. It only works if your opponent doesnt want to hurt you.

[@afterzanzibar]

Its just pride. He could have tapped early but decided to fight it. If you didn't really want to get choked, don't allow anyone to get your back. That's why I like wrestling better. Its man vs man not worried about a belt ranking system where people get their ego hurt, or like "im a black belt so im not gonna roll with these lower belts." He got humbled over his rank and thats why he's mad. Let him yell all he wants.

[@donclark8851]

Same thing happened to me. I'm a blue belt and the tiny black belts always struggled with me. They didn't like me and never promoted me. This is why bjj schools suck. Too much like cults. Bjj is a great sport but NOT the end all be all.

[@dirtygeazer9266]

Do you not appreciate when you got training partners that play a little dirty

[@TrayCaddyyy]

Don’t try so hard to win in training and that goes for both people. “Keep it playful.”

[@oftensalty]

Friendly reminder that Steph Curry misses free throws. Black belts aren't invincible. They're very good, but everyone slips up at some point or another. Everyone gets caught by something that they wouldn't get caught by 99.99% of the time. It happens and people need to stop reading so deeply into this stuff every time one of these one-off stories pop up. Sure, if you have a black belt out there that's in good physical condition and repeatedly getting submit by lower ranked opponents, there may be something in there worth looking into, but getting caught in a submission to lower ranked opponents just happens once in a while. Black belts themselves would also do well to remember this rather than getting their egos bruised over it when it inevitably happens. Getting submitted by people that you're "not supposed to" get submitted by is just reality keeping you honest and the occasional reminder to not get complacent.

[@sirpibble]

100% there was no choke and he just face cranked the guy with his forearm in spaztacular fashion The tap was to keep his teeth from breaking, not because he was being choked And he has every right to be angry because how many times has he been in superior position to the blue belt and never did anything unsafe and painful to him Then the one time the roles are reversed the blue belt acts like an idiot and starts cranking something like its the world finals

[@Jamoni1]

Then don't give your back to someone you don't trust. I don't "let them work" until we're clear that they won't hurt me if I do.

[@Jamoni1]

You know what? Maybe if BJJ black belts didn't treat their expectations and curriculum like the legend of the Sphinx, lower belts would have a clear understanding of what's expected of them. Maybe EARN the title of "Professor" by figuring out how people learn.

[@BillWard3590]

A lot of BJJ black belts should be given back

[@Seegie16]

I hear you. I startred this stuff in the 90s. Being over 40 and170 lbs as an excuse for a black to get tapped by some schlub 30 year old blue belt, would never fly and it would never happen.

[@AmynBennamane]

​@@Seegie16 I don't agree, nowadays people can learn very fast with internet. It's very possible to get tapped by a non-expert practitioner for many reasons (not focused, less athletic, etc.). And did you forget that the higher belt might (and should) be practising his weaker points, maybe things like late-stage escapes? If there's a reason why some black belts should be given back, it's first and foremost for that oversized ego (which was supposed to have been crushed many years ago). Unless someone did to you something really silly like pulling a submission too fast, just acknowledge the sub and tap. With experience, they too will understand that higher belts actually just go easy on their training partners.

[@pc3903]

100% the chess masters of old would get DESTROYED by young solid chess players today….as these next gen gets to learn all the cheat codes the old gen paid 30 years of dues to figure out.

[@aungnyeinchan495]

If it is not on the nose and he got that mad, leave ...

[@Carahloporra]

Dirty "chokes" piss me off, if it's on the chin it's not a choke, it's a squeeze. Literally look at the definition of a choke "a tight grip around a person's neck, used to restrain them by restricting their breathing." RNCs on the chin or mouth are just dirty and skilless, especially if it's in a gym setting and not competition.

[@PhilosophyofArtandScience]

thought this was bait of Khamzat

[@MrStefano79]

The black belt is a moron to shout at a blue belt. Choking on the mouth or noise is not nice but some people do anyway, sometimes without realising to do so. If you get caught in that position tap and re-set it, everyone get caught by lower belts time to time.

[@Никита-щ6г9з]

The black belt overreacted. His ego was damaged. He is on his way down now of many new submissions to lower belts😅 Nothing humiliating is in tapping to sucker move and following calm explanation. I know the white belt who tapped out black belts. The friend of mine who is a black belt insta tapped to a white belt who applied a can opener in him. Me personally was stupid egoed enough not to stop a guy who knee rip me and my knee was pretty injured. Tap and explain.

[@AmynBennamane]

Without more context, I'd assume the 30+ guy to be mature enough to pull the sub in a not too silly way, so I'm betting on an ego issue here.

[@Halloweenmascot]

Dirty move what a muppet

[@loveandoneness.n.e.t]

I've recently moved to a new area and started at a new school. I'm 2 years into my black belt journey. i know it takes time to form relationships, but the head instructor/owner of the gym chooses to have lower belts lead class, even though i have expressed my desire to teach. I have no desire to be attending classes led by lower belts. So I don't feel like training because of this situation. I feel i have alot to offer and hope this isn't because of my gender, female. Your advice on this dynamic would be deeply appreciated, Bernardo. Thank you🙏

[@nicholasnj3778]

Man sounds odd, at out gym our instructor teaches or if he isn’t there we’ll just figure it out, either ok we know so and so black belt really knows a lot so you’re up or we’ll ask what do you guys want to work on today and then say so and so is really good at that then they teach or we takes turns, no egos

[@rickyhough2381]

Change schools or start your own?

[@mruizsr]

If you're in that precarious position, as Kurt Osiander would say, "You phuked up a long time ago". The hell with your ego and just tap. It doesn't matter and nobody cares.

[@Jtravelvlogg]

Ufc😂

[@rocket5557]

Every gym is different. A competition gym is totally different than a hobby gym. You should know the rules in your gym. Sounds to me like you’re the one at fault.

[@ryanthompson3446]

Leave that gym immediately thats what you do.

[@SwordFighterPKN]

Oh this is stupid. Things happen and you tap, no big deal. The black belt is letting their ego get in the way.

[@flobro5000]

Don’t have a bullshit system of belts. People get full of themselves because of the this.

[@charlesa.reidiiiesq.2342]

Sounds like the black belt probably shouldn’t be a black belt to me. Sounds like a baby.

[@1977michaelsmith]

This is why BJJ belts are bullsh!t!

[@blascarrasco768]

Here’s the reality. BJJ is full of guys with fragile egos… especially at higher ranks. At least that’s been my observation.

[@blackanviljiujitsucompany1993]

He should find a new gym.. bb’s yelling after getting tapped.. never ok.. be better

[@samuelpeterson7043]

Belts are pointless

[@towardstar]

breaking chins should be straight up banned whether its MMA or BJJ. You can get the blood choke still with the chin. This is sports not war.

[@BroodYouth]

but then breaking the chin should be made illegal in MMA from strikes then too. it's completely different in MMA

[@vanyakapetanovic4018]

I really don't think belts matter one bit. Seen so many black belts submitted by white and blues that I think we should drop belts entirely as a progress tracking system

[@MrLOPIU22]

Black belt submitted by white? Wtf

[@ve2430]

Some young guys with basic knowledge are athletic monsters. I don't think it's impossible for them to catch a 50 year old black belt ​@@MrLOPIU22

[@anonymous071985]

By white and blue "submit" a black do you mean tapping at a gym during a training session? Because that can easily be a black belt wisely managing a situation. Such as a wildly spazy and overly aggressive person. Not everyone goes 110 percent all the time.

[@vanyakapetanovic4018]

@@anonymous071985 You are absolutely right. I do that think that too. But also I am a competitive white belt and when I roll with some older belt, casual goer, I do notice that they should be controlling me much more from a technical standpoint based on their accrued knowledge and experience. Sometimes of course. And I do kjnow they are not going 100 percent but I feel some big discrepancy sometimes so it made me understand belts are not end all be all representation of someone's skill level.

[@nicholasnj3778]

You ever hear of Nicky Rod as an example (etreme example but an example none the less) he was submitting black as a white/ blue hence the Nick name “black belt slayer”