How Much Training Do You Need To Beat Most Untrained People

[@BernardoFariaBJJ]

What are your thoughts?

[@andrewkarl5174]

Been training 5 yrs, now 67 years old, and can handle much younger white belts to their surprise. The best is the confidence I have day to day.

[@blockaderunner]

I'm almost 50, and 2 years in now, but I hardly ever go to class just once or twice a week. I'm always fresh as a result, not worn down, so when I come into class, I beat blue belts on the reg. However, if he's crafty and small/short he'll beat me, but usually anyone 30 to 40 lbs above my weight or lower can't win me or even outlast me. I've worked out since 2019 kickboxing jumprope, burpees, bodyweight, kettlebells etc. Dudes 40 lbs+ heavier than me give me trouble. I mean weight means a lot to me, so I admire anyone shorter/smaller than me who beats me by just being smarter/more disciplined out of necessity. This person is in training to be an instructor though so real dedicated.

[@peteypablo09]

Great point and also remember that Bernardo is a heavyweight who became a multiple time world champ. He is an outlier so don't feel bad if it takes you a bit longer for things to "click" like they did for him! You will get there!

[@erikszalai283]

Superb question. My quick answer was "blue belt" level no-gi. I have a similar experience. Started noticing a difference around 3-4 months, 6 months they could not submit me anymore, 8-9 months I dominated even the lightly trained, bit less than a year even those who are well trained but not in grappling (cross training kickboxers mostly). Take into account I am 41y, 150p 5'8", now on par with bluebelts with much more experience. Love this art.

[@jeffmackey529]

I agree, roughly! That brings to mind the Boyd Belt idea, which is that 20 lbs in weight is equivalent to a belt up and 10 years difference in age is a belt. So let’s say I’m a purple belt (I am!) and I’m facing another purple belt of the same age and weight. On average that’s an even fight. Now let’s say I’m ten years older. That’s roughly like fighting a brown belt in my age and weight class. But now, let’s give me a boost- I start some HRT, hit the weights, and now I’m 40 lbs heavier but everything else is as before. Now it switches over to me having a two belt advantage and it’s as if my opponent is a brown belt fighting a black belt, or equivalently, he’s a purple belt fighting a brown belt. So an average untrained person would be a white belt and the other factors apply in a very rough way. I’ll always remember being close to being a blue belt (but still white) and holding in mount a fairly new guy who weighed 290 while I was about 175. No matter what he tried he could not get out of my mount and exhausted himself! The Boyd Belt equivalent would be that I’m fighting a high level black belt (about a six belt difference if we include my age). So it’s just a rough idea… Every once in a while you’ll meet someone who is untrained but is just a pure physical freak. And sometimes you’ll meet someone who is untrained but has a very natural intuition for grappling and you almost can’t believe they’ve never trained. And very rarely someone has both. These guys are embarrassing to roll with.

[@nicholasnj3778]

Awesome answer and explanation especially having 1st hand experience OSS

[@cpgoog675]

love your shirt bernardo!

[@bengough6955]

Done a year 2-3 sessions a week, some holiday, had 4 weeks off going stateside (UK) unless the person is profoundly stronger than me theyre gettign swept and tapping to pressure lol so....1-1.5 years id say would give most hobbiests a massive step up in grappling

[@sevourn]

I like the answer, very insightful. I do think it has a hole in it though, you were wrestling around and there was no striking. It's like you guys had pretty much already agreed to BJJ rules from the start. An actual fight presents a lot more obstacles, actually getting a standing person down who doesn't want to go down, keeping your composure while being hit, being forced to stand and strike if you can't immediately get him down.

[@DavidMedic447]

If they’re massively bigger and stronger it might take two years to easily beat them but yeah for most people it’s one year.

[@Jamoni1]

The key here is not to shy away from training with bigger guys, even though it sucks

[@navinthiyambarawatte5121]

Reasons to start BJJ 1. Got stuck in bottom mount 2. Got stuck in bottom side co

[@DSVN23]

Took me around a year and a half to fully destroy new white belts that are far bigger than me. But I was 5’7 145 pounds. But just because you can out grapple them, doesn’t mean they can’t hurt you if it was a real fight. You need to be a good blue belt or purple IMO to not really be in any danger comparatively if you’re a smaller man

[@blockaderunner]

I'm tall and 170 lbs but we've got some 220, 250 even guys who I can't beat or I've had almost injury-ending instances with like getting stacked popping my back. I know now the dangers of a fat guy or powerlifter big guy. If they're win-at-all-costs they'll not care about stacking you with all their weight when you've got them in a triangle or something.

[@ltza84]

Real fighting is totally different than rolling around! Be safe and be vigilant!

[@brucehuddler7518]

@@blockaderunnerand thats why competition has weight classes, size matters. His question was regarding untrained people I believe.

[@frankthetank3342]

My guess is once you achieve Blue belt. Isn't that when most people quit? I assume the rate of progress slows after blue (return vs investment).

[@Patrick-sheen]

If you quit you go back to square one very quickly. Plenty blue belts come back after a year and get rag dolled until they get back up to speed which can take at least a month.

[@sendasantiguasgiddings]

I would say most people quit during white, and then again next highest after blue

[@BroodYouth]

@@Patrick-sheen I took off 8 years and was absolutely not getting ragdolled by white belts. I was gassing out, sure, but not ragdolled by people way worse than me

[@Patrick-sheen]

@@BroodYouth where did I say white belts?

[@mr.saturn7833]

I’ve been training for eight years. Although I sometimes do Gi, I mostly train in NoGi, I find it more practical for the area where I live. My stand up is solid, top/bottom good too, and I do enjoy the leg lock game. But that being said, I wouldn’t try anyone in the streets, if the problem comes to me, I have to do my best, however, you never know with a stranger, and size and weight do make a difference. If it’s purely grappling for fun, then yes, you run circles on untrained people.

[@blockaderunner]

well I'd worry in the street them having a knife, but you gotta do what you gotta do, people don't play fair these days like in the olden days when they had duels with guns or swords

[@davissp14]

There are certainly exceptions to the rule, but I think blue belt is typically the threshold that would dictate being able to control and manage the majority of folks coming in off the street. I also think there's a pretty big difference between Gi and No Gi. If someone with a strong athletic background comes into No-Gi class, there's still a pretty good chance he beats a non-athlete with 6 months of training.

[@OneNvrKnoz]

Wow, that’s way faster than my estimate of 18 months

[@Heldan]

Good to know. Get the blue then move to a striking martial art

[@Patrick-sheen]

If u get to blue then quit then none of it was worth it. Regular, consistent training is the key, and less concern about belt colours.

[@MegaAwsometurtle]

Controversial opinion but size matters

[@realtruth1448]

Everyone knows size matters

[@FILMkijkertje]

It totally depends on the person you are facing. Having done some doorwork in past, I have seen guys who never trained totally knock out trained guys, not too many, but be aware that there are these rare individuals that can really f@#$ you up, regardless of your training.

[@DavidMedic447]

@@FILMkijkertje especially if you get caught by surprise

[@OneNvrKnoz]

That’s precisely why he said ‘most’

[@biutsze]

This example refers to fun fights?!

[@mr.saturn7833]

I agree. A real fight in the street is a much different animal. There too many variables.

[@plnmbjj]

Need to be careful with the context, in a real fight most bjj practitioners that have never trained self defense, defending punches, head buts, elbows, could potentially end up badly hurt, I mean it’s better than not knowing anything, but if you train with people trying to punch you kick you, knee you you realize how different it is from sport jiu jitsu

[@evrose]

An untrained person (remember, that's the scenario here) throwing punches and kicks at the average BJJ Blue belt is going to be in for a rude surprise. It doesn't take specific training to close the distance, take them down, get a dominant position, and control the fight. Go ahead, throw your untrained punches... see what happens. It would be like watching a kitten trying to fight an octopus in water. hahaha

[@plnmbjj]

@evrose I agree, but that’s why I said you could get badly hurt, I trained for almost 8 years in primarily sport jiu jitsu focused gyms (competition) and a few years ago I joined a gym that is focused on self defense and street fight scenarios, and it shocked me seeing how bad even purple and brown belts do bad against white belts throwing punches at them when they are on their backs for example. It’s a completely different world, you might think it won’t hurt you but it will, specially if you are not in the mats. So I get a bit reluctant when I see people saying that all bjj practitioners are 100% ready for a street fight, I used to be that guy, little did I know…

[@bn468]

@@plnmbjjyou would have to get really good at guards that close the distance eg. Underhook half guard with wrestle ups and back takes, Butterfly guard with pinch headlock and shoulder, Basically guards that allow you to keep yourself tight to them whilst still being able to move, Closed guard your basically stuck on the ground eating punches unless you get a sweep, Honestly the best style of bjj for self defence would honestly would just be like Nicky rod in his early days, Good wrestling fundamentals with solid back control and a rear naked choke, Literally all you need

[@plnmbjj]

@@bn468 in most gyms that are focused on street fight training we avoid teaching those guards saying that they are ok to use for those scenarios, mainly because elbows and head butts are a real thing in a street fight, not saying they won’t work, just not ideal. half guard with under hooks are fine for MMA for example, see Demian Maia, but in mma they cannot throw head butts, for that reason we avoid teaching that in a street fight scenario, so most guard situations in a street fights should be clinching with your head as close as possible to their chin and trying to find a way to push them away with foot on their hips, or knee on their hips, then technical standup. Most types of wrestle ups in a street fight scenario are also not ideal, but ok for bjj and mma, because you can’t throw elbows to the back of their head when they come close with their head kind of down. So again, those are likely fine, but not taught in most schools that are focused in self defense like the gracie ones, because you cannot sell that saying yeah you are totally fine doing a double leg takedown with the back of your head exposed to elbows… when you start digging deeper into that it’s an eye opening thing, and unfortunately bjj schools that teach that are pretty rare nowadays, even in brazil

[@moijesuismoi99]

That's why you combine BJJ with boxing/Muaythai

[@johnthree1611]

My progression as a 39 year old adult, who started seven months ago. After a month and a half, I submitted my first blue belt, after around three months, I began to regularly beat and submit blue belts, so I could easily beat people with no training by then. Around 4-5 months I submitted my first purple belt, and after six months I began to beat bigger guys with ease, including a few newer guys, one weighing upwards of 300lbs, and another who was 230lbs, and plays flag football, this guy is probably nine years younger than me. At seven months, I beat blue belts often, have been told by a very good purple belt that I am at or around blue belt level, I submit a few of the newer purple belts regularly, and I've submitted a smaller brown belt that is in his mid to late forties and he is very good. I started off only being able to go twice a week, then at around 2-3 months I went up to 3-4 days a week, since around 4-5 months I've been going a minimum of four days a week, and now this past week I actually attended seven classes, and plan to compete in a few weeks. I think that it depends on how talented you are, how athletic and strong you are, your size, and what you put into it

[@theratedvertex8402]

Gonna be brutally honest with you and I’m doing that because I think it’s for your own betterment. If you’re beating blue and purple belts with only a couple of months in as a white belt you need to change gyms because that sounds like a terrible gym if their blue and purple belts can’t even handle a fresh white belt of a couple of months. Let’s see how you get on when you compete though. Maybe you should try ADCC if you think you are that good.

[@johnthree1611]

@theratedvertex8402 , I went to an open mat at another gym, and did well against their people to. I trust that my gym is fine, as one of the teachers, a very good purple belt, told me that I was getting good, and approaching blue belt level, he came from a different gym in a good sized city. We'll see how I do at my first tournament in Phoenix, in a few weeks. My gym also cannot be bad, because we have many people who compete, and have won gold, or do well in competitions.

[@BroodYouth]

@@johnthree1611 if you're a white belt who isn't massively strong, you're just gonna have to trust us that you are getting the easy treatment from whoever you're rolling with. I tapped black belts as a white belt...it not only means nothing, it's obvious in hindsight how they were letting me win.

[@johnthree1611]

@BroodYouth , I'm strong, I was told by my professor at the beginning to not use strength, but instead to use technique. So I began using 60-70% strength at max, and became better quickly. And, no I am not getting the easy treatment, from day one people were not easy on me, and I see those same people going easy on new people, and I shake my head. And yes, there are good white belts out there, and I happen to be one of them, because I've put in the work to get good quickly. I've actually been going easy on a lot of people for months now, and I changed my mindset a few months ago, that winning a roll is no longer important, but learning and getting better, focusing on weaknesses is more important than winning matches. I've also been working off my back 99% of the time, been doing that almost since the start, embracing the claustrophobia, and getting good off my back, and mainly taking mount either when people start off their back or I sweep and mount someone. I watched a Gordon Ryan video about how at their gym, people cannot start on top until after two years of working off their back only, so I've embraced that. I've been complimented from higher belts who visit our gym, because I am working off my back, even when it's someone that is big and strong and likes to smash.

[@johnthree1611]

@@BroodYouth , I replied to your comment with a long and detailed reply, but youtube never posted it. Essentially, you are wrong, nobody has gone easy on me, since day one. After a month, my own professor had thought that I had been going there for three months. I've been working off my back since the beginning, and I've gotten very good off my back. I can definitely gauge how good I am as a white belt, as we have multiple higher belts who do well in tournaments. Just because you don't want to believe that some people are just naturally good at jiujitsu right away, doesn't make what you think a fact.

[@Lock-Vlog]

Always tnx Sensei 🫡