A caravan hater's technical guide to suspension choice & stability | Auto Expert John Cadogan

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[@AutoExpertJC]

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[@sirstevo]

I've got a PhD in physics and I really appreciated the theory-hypothesis clarification. Well done mate. Spot on. Keep up the great work.

[@AutoExpertJC]

Sincere respect in relation to the brain bleeds that PhD must have cost you. I have only a batchelor's degree in mechanical engineering and that nearly exsanguinated me via the ears. The downgrading of 'theory' in pop culture just shits me...

[@sirstevo]

@@AutoExpertJC Thanks mate. While we're trading compliments, I've been a science communicator for 15 yrs. Kudos on the job you do explaining maths, physics, etc. You do great work, hence why you get the thanks for explaining 'advanced' concepts.

[@orangejuicepony6881]

What a coincidence, I have Pretty huge Dick too!

[@dmitripogosian5084]

We have to start every first year university physics course with explaining the difference between theory and hypothesis, and that everyday use of 'theory' is not how scientists use it.

[@antone.henderson]

The biggest stability/instability problem is usually the loose nut behind the wheel. Our driving instructor drummed into us that we were all sub par drivers and everyone else was to be treated as worse. Thanks for the enlightenment. Regards Tony

[@markh.6687]

"Everyone else on the roads is deaf, dumb, blind, and suicidal." -- Ah Choo.

[@ateamfan42]

The number of people on the road who think they are above average drivers is some shockingly high statistic (like 90% or something). Most people who try something like autocross or track day driving quickly get humbled as they learn just how much more talented the experienced people are. Anyone can learn driving talent, but it does take time and work (like pretty much any other skill).

[@robwilson7654]

Having just watched the weight distribution bar clip, and as a 66 year old mechanical engineer with many thousands of towing miles behind me, I enjoyed both videos tremendously. There are several extremely good lessons in this clip, many of which could be life saving for soemone taking the time to learn from it. I am the mild steel standard rolled section hot dip galvanised chassis on leaf springs type who will not tow anything if its GVM is above my vehicle's kerb weight. Seen too much mayhem on the roads. Thanks for the entertainment. I intend using it on the sprogs.

[@chriscampbell4796]

The theory, hypothesis wording is what I have been telling my children for years now . Glad to see you bring that up .

[@tonywharton2352]

When towing my van, in between whistling “Take me home country roads” I practice diving for the electric brake controller control knob, turning it to max and manually applying the van brakes. Watching van sway accidents on YT has taught me how little time there is from sway commencement to loss of control and the drivers response needs to be automatic, because often it is an increase in speed (and) or a faster than normal change of direction from passing another vehicle, or other abnormal event that precipitates the sway, in that case there is a lot going on for the brain to cope with and react, indeed the first sway or two may be subtle and not noticed by the driver

[@darylcarson6937]

Glad John explained the difference between a theory and hypothesis The shitwah in a caravan. For those that own a caravan the well established theory is the shitwah does and always will work absolutely fine. For John who hasn’t by the sounds of it experienced a shitwah in a caravan has a hypothesis they don’t and never will work fine.

[@PHancock11]

Thank you John, that was good. Nice to hear the term "MUPPET" used properly; a term we used in the Navy - Most Useless Prick Pussers Ever Trained. Love the T-Shirt by the way.

[@hlumelomgudlwa603]

I appreciate the physics part of it and it confirms the near disaster I witnessed a few years back. Nissan NP300 2.0l petrol towing JGC wobbling all over the road due to overload and the thing crawling on the highway.

[@StaitlyNatters]

Getting into the ‘way back’ machine. Our family owned a Datsun 720 twin cab, we bought a viscount 18 foot van via an auction. We had to collect that day. We hooked up the Ute and, at that time, I had only just been granted my full license, so this was the very first time legally towing, but it was also the largest trailer I had towed at that point of time. On the 100 odd kilometre trip home, it was both wet and windy. The absolute scariest time I remember in my driving career. That thing empty, would weave all over the place and would actually drag the Ute even at low speeds. Once we got home and started to pack it and get some weight into it. We found that it became much more stable. However, even in a mild cross wind it would become quite scary as it would, at higher speeds, start to drag the rear end of the Ute side to side. I have absolutely no idea what the weights would’ve have been. As I said this is way back, mid 80s or so…

[@bobkats]

I remember the first time I towed a Road Train, the old bloke beside me said, NEVER look in your mirrors!!! You automatically try and counter steer to keep them straight, they it all falls over, I use the same principal today towint the Shitwa, except it does have EBS and such.....

[@171grp]

Probably apocryphal but a story I was told decades ago in rallying circles…. Colin Bond (Aussie driving legend) “ I have never rolled a car”….Ari Vatanen (Finish driving legend) in response…”But Colin how do you know your limits?”

[@JohnH1]

Back in the 70s a famous race driver whos name I can't remember said if you don't spin now and again you aren't trying hard enough.

[@C.Fecteau-AU-MJ13]

An admiral never really knows how deep his submarines can go, until he tries it.

[@fabianfogliani1883]

@@C.Fecteau-AU-MJ13 not a very good analogy, as an Admiral does know how deep his Submarines go and prefers not to push it that far. Exactly the same way John talks about towing loads, why exceed when you don't have to.

[@MatthewBorg-q9r]

Great job. I love my caravan, upgrading the suspension and now I know to stick with the leaf springs. Thanks mate

[@philandclarepatch6262]

Finally someone who tells it how it is and not trying to sell us their goods! Thx John

[@stevezodiac575]

'Every time, for average caravans, leaf-springs is the answer'. Thank you Sir!

[@mrp-b7x]

The overhang John mentions really makes a difference. Also included in this discussion is keeping the receiver draw bar as short as possible and as close up to the rear vehicle as possible. I have been able to feel the difference in about a 1" difference in receiver draw bar length. If your current draw bar is not tight up the the rear of the vehicle, the way to shorten the draw bar length is to have a machine shop drill an extra hole in the draw bar to make it closer to the vehicle and therefore closer to the axle as John mentions when discussing overhang.

[@audoinxr6372]

I feel JC needs to do a video on the advantages and disadvantages of Pig/dog/5th wheel trailers. Being in road transport my self. I've driven many different combinations. All of them have their advantages and disadvantages. The main difference between them and car based trailers is, they are all stable in every form. Our 8 pallet pig trailers tare weight is 4.5t. They are towed by 14 pallet HR trucks that tare at 12 to 14 tons. The gross of the pig is 9t. The truck is 24t. By these weights, you can't have the pig out weighing the truck by any legal means. But with the semis, the back of the prime mover becomes the front half of the trailer so to speak. I can go more into it. But thats the simple sum of it in my experience.

[@JustcruznRob-AlanaBuick]

Awesome 👏 to have u 3 back in Aussie and lookn forward to continuing to see your adventure, safe travels

[@dougstubbs9637]

The Ming Moles in the Nord VPN advert. Thinking Man’s Crumpet. Yum.

[@JohnH1]

I'm an old safety officer/police/ compliance/head-kicker, I have a background in rail construction our primary job was prevention. Safety in design is thing but as it has turned out bean counters are more influential than we were, who'd have guessed? I can't challenge your view of the new breed of Safety Advisors who are in my opinion no more than glorified clerks, that sit in the office generating paperwork or go to meetings and discuss how to design a new form for the labourers to fill out.

[@2UZFE]

As I train driver I couldn’t agree more !

[@spikeuss1531]

To John I wish you were still at ŵheels car magazine, as full advertising b.s reports. So get back to real world, I worked in family company, call power down Australia. So power down Australia, started in 1984 developing shocks or the right name is damper, for trucks. We proved biggest chicken company. we help chickens stuffed into plastic box on trailers drying on there way to completely to Liverpool or Cardiff for head copping . The trailer's had leaf sping suspension, with no damaging. So once the trailer's fitted with damper, 80% òf chickens made it to Cardiff or Liverpool alive. As for example, if took damper off back any ute and drove 5klm down hit brakes .I don't think I would have to say Pauline, please explain. As most Japanese manufacturers up to 35mm damper. As some Ute's are 25mm, with 10 grade oil and gas filled to stop air bubbles. That is to stop oil running through the valves, as like getting full carton of full cream milk and half carton of milk when you make heaps of bubbles. As not much not much younger then yourself. When wheels car magazine, back in August 1983 did damper test on most dampers on Australia market from cheapest to dearest on VH V8 commodore, the Monroe Wylie GT 130 and GT trailblazer can in 3 place and second cheaps. I work in first company my father company my set up in Cardiff in 1978. He corrected axle camber for Australian roads, as truck drives and company's said they rag tyres would out last steel belt radials , we expected the truck is not made for newer trucks and USA road which are flat motor way. So Australian roads 30. Deg and higher to let water to off in gutter onto streets. So we had most nsw government departments, ambulance, police vehicles. So 70s to late were f 100 to f 350 fords. We have buy highest size cams that they made. As some of Ford f100 were made in Brisbane and most f350 the good USA. As most vehicles will pull from highest camber to lowest casters. So for example for Falcon from XA to mid XD , 0deg on left and have 1/2 on right 20:32 a

[@spikeuss1531]

The caster 1/2 and o deg on right for manual steer and 1 more power steer 1/8 0f toe. So when Ford to 8mm more and had rta rewrite to manufacture specifications. So people said to us, the new damper you put on hJ80 landcruise made it more stable. We were ask put damper on carvan only when out warranty as we u bolt don't have and more thread to fit plate for damper and plate to the rail of the van. So we didn't engineer tick caravan. We some popups and weights about same mini and mini damper to and box trail for. Tradesmen. So caravan should made fit damper. Sorry for my spelling not one strong points. As powerdown is no longer family as dad password as he was trying heavy vehicles safer. As was trying John and John Howard on how life pacific hwy was robber from hospital system. As well try to denning bus to drop prices on steering arms as what happen Grafton bus whe Someone welding .new end on cast rod These buses where suger Valley and blue for school run Your great guy Kind Regards Bruce jnr I leave you to up ex powerdown Living in Newcastle got mp one partly losing his sent for not putting 4 lane Rd to joining to m1 and Newcastle missing link hwy 123

[@richardwalsh5570]

Overhang and leverage theory explained very well JC 👍

[@maxcaravan7584]

I tow a shitwar (14ft) with independent suspension. It does have stability control fitted. Despite the fact that you question the ownership of such items, I really learn a lot from what you have say. I am grateful for your willingness to pass on your knowledge. I also notice an increasing number of heavily loaded vehicles and combinations are using public weigh bridges. But despite everything you say, I really love my shitwar - it beats sleeping on the ground or close it it in unpleasant weather. Thank you for educating me.

[@paulmcgaw6976]

The fact that someone like me can buy a Land Cruiser and then hook up a 3 tonne caravan without any courses, training, or licence uprgrade then proceeded to drive it at 100km around Australia is astounding.

[@OntarioBearHunter]

" government me harder" now the Aussie motto?

[@paulmcgaw6976]

You're a late Gen X or an early Boomer. How's my aim?

[@tim18118]

That’s true, Paul. At the same time, there is absolutely nothing stopping you (or me!) from going out and doing a towing course, getting professionally weighed etc.

[@nobody6056]

You must be equally astounded by the fact 99.9999% of people that do that never experience a problem in doing so.

[@ghostofdre]

​@@OntarioBearHunter we live in a society of 25 million people on a planet with 8 billion people, it's chaos enough with the rules and regulations in place. What do you propose?

[@williemakeit5660]

I just love listening to you John, whether I agree with you or not which is more so the former. I cannot hold back a good laugh with all your presentations. Keep it up. Cheers, Shane M.

[@EddyWoon]

Thanks for taking your time to explain some fundamental physics and I am so glad that we don't have to do any Laplace transformations or use Fourier series.

[@darrenbooker8144]

Absolutely one of your best servings to a numpty ever. even by your very high standards of servings or factual rebuttal. Loved every minute 😂👍😂

[@jerrymyahzcat]

Geez all “Randy” said was that Pajero Sport was the most stable vehicle HE had driven towing aside from the LC 200 V8. Why the big carry on? He never claimed it was THE most stable or even THE most stable 2nd to the LC. He just said of vehicles HE had driven. Wow.

[@darrenbooker8144]

Did you skip every part of Randy's dialogue or not really listen? After your response to me I have little hope for you also🤦‍♂️

[@jerrymyahzcat]

@@darrenbooker8144 yeah I watched the whole video buddy. Randy may well be a numpty but the bit I commented on was replied to by JC inappropriately.

[@ianmac2963]

Yet another intelligent, informative and entertaining video. Thanks JC. You're a LEGEND in my opinion.

[@AutoExpertJC]

Thank you, Ian.

[@robincurwood]

I'm sorry for your loss! In the UK it is recommended that we tow with a maximum of 85%of the gross mass of the vehicle weight. Meaning in theory it should be safer. But we still see idiots driving too fast overloaded and overturned. I personally have towed vehicles from caravans to 45tons articulated lorries. If I feel uncomfortable with the load I would have corrected it and or driver slower. Never having an accident towing. I have seen too many deaths on the road. I certainly don't want to add mine or my family's to that number.

[@Judge_Dredd]

Well, I've agreed with everything else you've ever put on video, but as regards caravans I have to diverge, never owned or towed one before (and I've towed virtually anything else you can think of, behind a tiny hatchback, estate, 4x4, large van, or LGV [HGV]), bought one a couple of months ago, the biggest I could find twin axle jobby, and I like it, we have plans to do various tourist trails we've previously used tents, motorhomes, or local accommodation along before in the past, and the 'outfit' is growing on me after more than 40 years of driving. Must be my age, however, it also fits in with my existing hobbies of Amateur Radio, and Sports Shooting Events, not to say we're fixated, since we still regularly take holidays without a caravan, and I do things like tow my sports hatchback to track days, collect loads of logs on a trailer, tow a trailer tent, and go to other Sports Shooting Weekends/Weeks using normal accommodation, that sort of thing. Unlike the US and Aussie convention of using a 4x4 or Pickup to tow, I use two estate cars, a 2018 2.0 turbodiesel 6 speed manual 180BHP Toyota Avensis Estate, and 1973 1.8 twin carb air-cooled 4 speed manual 85BHP Volkswagen 412LS Variant (normally a Trailer Tent rather than a caravan as it's a little under-powered and old). In the past I towed a Sailing Dinghy using a 1972 1.0 Petrol 4 speed manual 45BHP Datsun 100A Saloon, so I like a challenge. So whilst everyone has an opinion, like we all take a shit, I'm afraid whilst I don't agree with a lot of this video, I still found it entertaining, don't get me wrong, and I do see a few dickheads towing caravans, its just never been in a mirror...

[@chriscooper6341]

We have a new Coromal Van made by Apollo Industries when first towed it had really bad sway at 80knh. The dealer said to return it for a wheel alignment (on a solid axle - leaf sprung) and yes it did need it. When measurements were made prior to an alignment the rear axle was too far left the front axle too far right. It still sways badly methinks its a design fault with the van. The towball weight empty is 150kg but according to the placard the atm is 2220kg and ball weight 123kg (~5%). Its got me stumped!

[@michaelohman4980]

When a car salesmen pulls all the stops out to 'seal the deal' he's going to say the pajero sport has the same towing capacity as the 200 series cruiser, imagine that! Save $23,000 for the 4×4 that does the same job! I think that I'd like the 9% increase in track and also the extra weight of the cruiser, IF I were to tow a caravan with 2,500 kg of gvm. The point is I'm with you, carve a tonne or more out of the public convenience, and tow something lighter, do we need to cart 200 litres of effluent around the country with us? What happened to the shovel with the loo paper attached? Or, conversely, don't trade in the benz, and stay at 5 star hotels instead......

[@skinnytroopy]

Nice hypothesis.

[@paulmcintosh5589]

The biggest problem is if someone buying a vehicle knows that little about them they shouldn’t even have a licence for a deadly weapon. Doesn’t happen in any other industry.

[@michaelslee4336]

I tow a tandem trailer all the time anywhere from empty to chock-o-block, if the load allows it I speed up slowly and put in some hard and quite rapid steering wheel inputs and just feel how the trailer pulls back and responds. You do get a very good feel for what ok is up through the speed range but never try this first at fast speed. If it feels loose down low then look out. It has served me well for 30 plus years.

[@Equiluxe1]

The risk of jack knife goes up with the square of the speed, so its best to keep the speed down.

[@michaelslee4336]

The square law is why I do it slowly and carefully. Very slowly accelerate and give it a shake and keep doing that to about 40 Kay’s or so and you get a very good idea of how it will behave at faster speeds. No use finding out at a hundred that the tail is wagging the dog.

[@Slim885]

❤John for young one’s education!!!, as a fact you have stopped lots from jumping that edge 😮for fact no piss take love ya 😊.

[@alexwood5425]

So often you don't know where 'the edge' is until you're looking at it from the wrong side!

[@petercameron8832]

John, the wheel track difference you demonstrated with your thumb and forefinger is officially known here at upper Dunkeld as a poofteenth!

[@Judge_Dredd]

Also, here in the UK (and Europe) caravans have stability systems built into the hitch, mine has an ALKO Hitch, which is a dry hitch with friction pads controlled by an electronic system monitoring Pitch, Roll, and Yaw, and this operates friction pads on the tow ball, to reduce instability. However, loading of a caravan is more important for stability, the heaviest items should be over the caravan axle(s) and as low down inside the caravan as possible. The drawbar or nose weight should be within the car or caravan specifications (the lowest figure if these are different), this is usually in the range of 5% to 7% of the maximum technically permitted laden mass (MPTLM, yeah the acronym is the wrong way around, but I didn't create it), but is specified by the Car or Caravan Manufacturer. The last 'rule' (its just guidance not Law) is the 85% Rule, for a novice at towing the MPTLM of the caravan 'should' be at a maximum of 85% of the Kerb Weight of the Tow Vehicle, for an experienced driver at towing the MPTLM of the caravan 'should' be no more than 100%, but again this is just guidance from about 1954, and vehicle and trailer technology should be a lot better than 70 years ago. In my situation the Toyota is 1610kg kerb weight, 2100kg max goods vehicle weight, and my caravan is 1685kg MPTLM, with the car drawbar weight limited to 75kg max, and maximum towing capacity is 1800kg, so I don't meet the 'rule' as such since I'd be hitting 104.6% according to that calculation, however, with two adults, two large labradors, a roof box, with enough luggage, I might hit 2100kg, and the relative mass ration would be more like 80% in real terms, and along with a twin axle helping a bit in reducing yaw, I'm not expecting any problems unless I decide to rally off-road, or tow around a track, neither of which appeal.

[@davidvincent2051]

I've been working in the suspension industry for way to long and independent suspension on anything with one axil is pretty much pointless because it has no diagonal load to make it work independently from the other opposing force.

[@Excitedtobehere]

Axle

[@petermills1402]

I am currently grappling with a caravan manufacturers own design independent suspension that bottoms out on the dual shocks before the bump stop comes into play. I only discovered this when I buggered a shock and a decent mechanic pointed out the design flaw. You could say this is the 'third' possibility of compression travel limits. Larger bumps stops are required methinks.

[@philbaker3549]

Anxiously excited awaiting a reply from 'Randy' in your next video. Cheers.

[@skillsrev]

Used to tow out so many Scooby Doo Impreza WRX because of the theory that it grips indefinitely... until it doesn't. Even the police traffic cops got one and couldn't keep it on all four wheels with all of their expertise. So many people don't know the limits of their vehicles. But I will say that sales people of Caravans are no more honest over what you need to tow, than the ones that sell the 4x4.

[@tyzon00800]

What a load of crap , u need to get your hand out of your pants

[@marcleibovic6879]

In a blizzard this ski season going down a 12% grade my 2020 WRX on winters at oh say 25 mph/ 40 kph it went sideways. I saved it. Lucky boy

[@calebgriffiths9062]

A couple of points regarding your excellent comments: - Car stability control is there to help reduce yawing. Shame it isn't a requirement for caravans! Along with ABS.

[@DW-10]

Basic elements of vehicle design will of course have an impact on stability (assuming similar suspension design/chassis design/appropriate spring damper rates etc), towing or otherwise. Longer wheelbase = less pitch. Wider track = less roll. Lower centre of gravity = less pitch/roll. Wider tyres = more grip. Personally towed 2.8-3t tandem van behind a Triton. Towed well enough but needed better quality dampers, rear swaybar and heavier rear springs. But even then you could feel there was NOT going to be daylight to any instability threshold if there was a need to make sudden, unexpected and significant control input. Changed to a v6 Ranger, wider track, longer wheelbase, more weight, less rear overhang. The Ranger overhang is a full 300mm less than the Triton and in combo with a wheelbase more than 200mm longer. It feels like there is going to be greater capacity to control the van in an uncertain situation (untested of course). I really liked the Triton, I've owned two from new. But the MN, MQ and MR Tritons overhang is a major shortcoming when carrying or towing heavy loads.

[@jimarmstrong7230]

Another vid full of good info. You mention the insanity of towing a 2.5t van off road, well from what I have seen out Dingo Piss Creek way, a lot of the Off Road Vans are up to 3.5t with some 800 to 900mm from the road to the van floor. A low C of G doesn't seem to be a big part of building Off Road Vans. So how would that go on your insanity meter? As a vast majority of 'Stralia consists of dirt roads, it is very difficult to see a lot of it by staying on the blacktop, some of which by the way is no better than dirt roads, just less dusty. Cheers, Jim.

[@wazzanose]

Hi John, I'm learning lot from your vids. I thought you might be interested in an experience I had once passing a Range Rover towing a caravan that jackknifed in front of me just as I came level with the front of the van. We were doing 90kph when we hit and I had the Rangie across my front and the van down the drivers side and we pushed him a fair way before stopping. I was driving a Bedford bus on a 18/35 coach camping tour and needless to say all the hungover punters woke up pretty quick when it all happened. I have no idea what caused it, but the van was swaying a little as we approached although not enough to be alarming. The full story of what happened afterwards is a good yarn that I'd love to tell you over a beer one day, and show you the photos.

[@Ben_H65_Holzheimer]

Your bow wave is what initiated the caravan's swaying. Aerodynamics of large heavy vehicles. Driving a bus, truck or any large heavy vehicle with a large frontal surface area, disturbs & pushes a large amount of air in front & to either side of the large heavy vehicle. The caravan started swaying as you approached it & jack knifed while you were beside it. The amount of air you were pushing, pushes against the side of the caravan. It too has a lot of surface area (sail area). Unfortunately for the caravan & the Range Rover. A lot of surface area for the wind to act on (sail area) On a Light Vehicle chassis relying on stability control, traction control, every driver's aid imaginable, a big powerful V6 or V8 engine coupled to a car style automatic transmission. And a car licenced driver behind the wheel. Who didn't know how to use the trailer brakes to stop the caravan's swaying before it overwhelmed the tow vehicle's ability to hold it steady causing the loss of control & jack knife. I drive trucks pulling & carrying logging & earth moving machinery & pulling caravans. Know both sides of the situation. I see this situation about once a week.

[@wazzanose]

@@Ben_H65_Holzheimer It happened in 1982 so the Rangie and van likely didn't have much in the way of drivers aids.

[@Ben_H65_Holzheimer]

@@wazzanose more then you may think. Jaguar Land Rover did invent most of the drivers aids that other manufactures offer as standard today. Jaguar Land Rover has been the prostitute of the automotive industry for over half a century. Owned & mismanaged by British Leyland, BMW, Ford & currently by Tata. Buy a company to get a hold of it's technology & patients. No one knows how to deal with the notorious Lucas electrical system. AKA the powerless masters of darkness. They were & still are marketed as the top of the range luxury Sports Utility Vehicle. Marketed to the rich & social elite as a luxury tow rig to pull their horse floats around. Go to any polo club. Count the number of Range Rovers pulling horse floats. Though the early Range Rover V8, the transmissions & drive lines at the time weren't great tow rigs. The Later Land Rover Defender has heavier duty components of the chassis, coil springs, disc brakes that it inherited from the Range Rover. Though with heavier duty gearboxes, Intercooled Turbo Diesel 4 cylinder engines that produce more power & torque then the earlier Range Rover V8's. The 300tdi is closer related to a Perkins diesel engine found in a Massey Ferguson tractor. Land Rover & Massey Ferguson did have a business relationship & distribution partnership for a period of time. The chassis, coil springs, disc brakes & entire drive line That is under my 1997 Land Rover Defender 110 Heavy Duty Wagon. It's an Agricultural Utilitarian Vehicle. A direct cross between a farm truck & a tractor. About as luxurious as an outhouse. But a very capable, versatile & practical machines. Physical towing capacity of 14 tonnes in 1st gear low range across a paddock all day. On road towing capacity 3.5 tonnes with a suitably braked trailer. 10 speed manual gearbox with full time 4wd & diff lock as standard from 1948. I used mine as a log tractor. Pulling logs, Carrying chainsaws & logging support equipment. It does pull my 3 tonne caravan. But not long distance at highway speed. I use a bigger truck for that. That the Land Rover fits on the back of.

[@frankguernier2280]

The amount of time I read on 4wd and camping forums about people believe as "Randy" does that the little pimple size 4x4 is fine to tow a 3000kg plus caravan. "Because I am a safe experienced driver.

[@TedHarrold]

Ted 7/2/24 Good Job. I appreciate the truth and reality of you comments. I would have liked you to cover the load sharing aspects of (or lack of it) of the independent Suspensions vs a good rocker-roller leaf spring setup. With the independent set up driving over uneven terrain the pitch is quite severe. The rear if the vehicle is lifted up and down making it unstable. You do not get that effect with load sharing Leaf springs and rockers.

[@davidwild66]

My golden rule for when I am pushing a boundary is, "If this all goes to shit, how am I going to explain my actions to the coroner?" If I am going to struggle to explain myself, I stop and reconsider my decisions.

[@bobkats]

David, glad to see you are not Xbox or play station trained!!!!

[@TheWombat2012]

I’m a train driver and they drum into us a simple bit of logic; Do the right speed, operate within the limits, come to a crossing and sound your horn, have your headlight on, and do the right speed…because you don’t want to stand up in a coroners court and have to explain why you didn’t… Same on the road; if you are towing something way overweight or in a dangerous fashion and have an accident, then yes, you really don’t want to stand in court explaining why you did that.

[@bobkats]

@@TheWombat2012 GOLD mate could not agree more, even when you do everything right, it can and does go wrong, but if you are on the side of right, It does not make it easier, but you can still look others in the eye.

[@awolffromamongus875]

Imagine spending your life trying to talk engineering sense into double brick walls. Hats off to you fella, the Father does roll his eyes every time I attempt to do same.

[@tim18118]

Just looking at the skill of people driving (well, attempting to drive) most of the vehicles on our road today tells you that most of what JC talks about goes right over their heads. They’re unconsciously incompetent, in that they simply don’t understand the physics they are playing with any time they get on the road.

[@martinlang9615]

God you explain this well from a practical engineering/physics basis. Pity more did not do physics at school and actually really paid attention.

[@silverdalefarm1805]

When referring to tow weights, are you referring to ATM weight? I’m concerned now as our atm is 2.5 with PJSport tow veh. Tx.

[@clintonbutton712]

In Aviation it is called the swiss cheese model, when you get away with little things and survive, so you do it again. Then one dayball the holes line up and splat!!. Van drivers think they have towed at 120kmh before and got away with it, so they do it again then pot hole, other car, roo, add your own disaster happens and splat!! I don't think they will ever learn.

[@jebw]

No one had done a comprehensive study of enough caravan wobble accidents to establish all the contributing factors. Weight and weight distribution can be demonstrated to be one of the factors. An artifact of the trailing arm suspension is it alters the distance from the ball to the wheel as it extends and compresses. Having different lengths from the ball to each wheel will cause the trailer to steer out from brhind the tow vehicle. Is this a possible precursor to a death wobble?

[@shannybangers88]

I read a statement the other day that went, "its bloody hard to argue with someone smart, but its impossible to argue with an idiot". I'm certain John feels this often scrolling through the comments.

[@LuvThe350Niner-Garth]

I'll be using that one Shannon. Absolute pissa and very true.

[@soundman6645]

I;ve just had a vision of, "Muppets" towing Caravans. It occurs to me that some actual muppets, would be relatively responsible caravan operators. Maybee we should have a series of towing education advertising, featuring Muppets.

[@SoulTouchMusic93]

Hey guys what people in UK started doing is buying a freaking semi truck for towing caravans. If they're 7yo they're basically scrap money. You can put a regular tow hitch at the back and take off the fifth wheel and put a box where it used to be to store your crap. And with that combo you don't have to worry about fuel range, overloading and stability. You can tow the biggest shittoir there is in safety.

[@rambleon3698]

Youve still got rego insurance fuel and tyre costs. All much higher than a 4x4. Then you've got to get in and out of the bloody thing and you need a heavy vehicle licence. 😢

[@tba3900]

How many that tow know this NSW If your Gross Vehicle Mass (GVM) or Gross Combination Mass (GCM) is under 4.5t then you can travel at the sign posted limit. However, if your GVM or GCM is over 4.5t, the speed limit is capped at 100km/h. WA Maximum speed limit when towing a trailer or caravan is 100km/h. The maximum speed for a heavy vehicle (with a GCM of over 22.5t) is 100km/h. VIC If your vehicle GVM is over 4.5t your speed limit is capped at 100km/h otherwise the posted speed limit applies. TAS Posted speed limit if towing. Maximum speed limit on gravel roads is 80km/h. If you are driving a bus with a GVM over 5t or another vehicle with a GVM over 12t, the maximum speed limit is 100km/h. SA Posted speed limit if towing. The maximum speed limit for a vehicle with a GVM over 12t or a bus GVM over 5t is 100km/h. ACT There are no speed restrictions applying to caravans and trailers other than the signed maximum speed limit. The highest speed limit zone in ACT is 100 km/h. NT Drivers of heavy vehicles such as buses of more than 5t gross vehicle mass (GVM) or other heavy vehicles of more than 12 tonnes GVM must not exceed 100km/h. QLD Posted speed limit. Nationally, certain heavy vehicles require speed limiters, however; these vehicles are typically heavier than most RVs.

[@jasonpushy]

great alpine road ( between mt hotham and harrietville) closed for 3 hours this afternoon. 4x4 towing a big caravan. no chains. lots of snow. and the caravan decided to overtake the car.

[@kisbushcraftdownunder]

I was looking at the specs of my new Landcruiser Troopcarrier a kerb weight of 2395kg a GVM of 3510kg a tow capacity of 3500kg (Braked )so a possibility of a Gross Combined Mass of 7010kg that's crazy

[@jeffscott5312]

On a point of clarification, John. When you state that the towing vehicle should weigh more than the vehicle being towed, are you referring to the tow vehicles kerb weight, or the GVM?

[@Theaveragepunter1]

Love your work mate. You are the Jordan Peterson of motoring.

[@brentonl2631]

I tow a 13 ft tourer with an ATM 1530KG and also no crapper using a Paj Sport. I find your videos on caravaning bores me to tears with your ill directed and tainted view. Yet it grinds me to say that your information is mostly correct. If I hear the words pitch and Yaw again I'll bit my own tits off. Again thanks for your video. Man's gots'ta know his limits.

[@bobkats]

You save money on brassieres then?

[@evanmurphy2165]

Let me channel my inner Kadogan - it is "I'll bite my own tits off." not "bit". "Bit" would be past tense in that 'I've bit my own tits off' or better language choice would be 'I've bitten my own tits off', whereas "bite" is a future tense 'I'll bite my own tits off'. 🤣

[@brentonl2631]

​@@evanmurphy2165 Your absolutely correct I should proof read my work before sending.

[@mitchb8325]

Thanks for the video very informative as for the Pajero sports owner written to you is proper dunce Am glad You schooled them in this video

[@TheWombat2012]

My thoughts on towing? * You shouldn’t be allowed to tow anything that weighs more than your tow vehicle. * GVM upgrades should be banned. Just buy something that your vehicle can tow as is from the factory. * There should be a license class for towing. I have to have a “truck license” to drive a vehicle weighing more than four tonnes. But if I buy a 2+ tonne 4x4 and whack a 2800kg van on it, I can do that on a car license. * The weigh station’s police do now and then to “inform owners of their actually combined vehicle mass”? Make them permanent. Make the fines heavy. I drive trains alongside the Capricorn Highway here in Queensland every day, and drive work vehicles between just outside Rockhampton and Blackwater quite often too. The sheer staggering number of MASSIVE vans I see wobbling along behind various vehicles, sagging in the guts, is amazing. How that road is not liberally festooned with smashed vans and rolled fourbies and SUV’s is beyond me.

[@robwilson7654]

I agree entirely. In South Africa, regulations preclude one towing anything with a GVM greater than the tow vehicle's Tare (near to Kerb weight)-that if it has overun brakes. That's good. This normally trumps all other limits-most certainly the OEM's towing limits. With services brakes fitted (air/hydraulic, whatever) to the trailer, GVM's of trailer and tow vehicle can be the same.

[@mrp-b7x]

Towing something heavier than the tow vehicle will be stable if a weight distribution hitch is properly setup and used to restore weight to the front axle of the tow vehicle. There will be no wobbling....

[@denden01161]

Question I have Lexus GX460(Prado), towing with 2800lbs Rv trailer(caravan). Rear sagging kinda giving me worried, what you think of spring helper or change coil spring. To help with sagging vehicle, already installed timbren bump stop. Will air coil spring helper(airlift-Firestone) help out with the sag?

[@LuvThe350Niner-Garth]

Opinions are like arseholes, as in everyone has one as the saying goes. The thing I like with your commentary, it always has well researched facts and experience as an engineer behind it, not opinion! Its a great laugh seeing your reaction JC when these people with biased opinions have a crack at someone who knows better. I also get a good laugh when you refer to caravans as "Porta Hovels". Love the Olight products btw. Become somewhat addicted thanks to your introduction. Bought 3 in 3 months and waiting for the Maurader Mini to go on flash sale.😃

[@rb6725]

Planetauto KZbin channel in the UK state in their video that the SSangyong Musso can tow 3.5 ton AND 1 ton payload at the same time! Its about 4 minutes into the video and they have 16k subscribers, unbelievable.

[@simonjones7785]

Ive said it before and Ill say it again if you want a serious off road and road towing platform buy a unimog it can handle the load and the road

[@codyLady62]

Back 50 odd years ago l towed a Holden Torana on a Youhaul trailer for a friend out to Oran Park using my V8 Monaro. I will never forget Mona Vale road (A3) and the hill they used to call tumble down dick. Well we survived, only just, certainly raised the mullet on the back of my neck. Never have l entertained the idea of buy a bloody caravan.

[@petermdoolan]

Just checking but the GSR Pajero Sport is 566 kg of payload not the 660 ish you quoted, from what I understand Mitsubishi must have reduced payload by about 70 kg for each model, this is using the Mitsubishi current brochure. 566 kg does not allow much luggage capacity. Out of interest you quoted the Prado at about 610 kg but the dealers claim about 760 for the GLX, they do mention Toyota does not provide the info but 2 dealers said 760 kg calculated by using other weights in their brochure. I think this was the tailgate no cost option with a smaller fuel tank

[@anzacbrown4730]

Keep up the good work love your videos! 👍🏻

[@AutoEngineerVideos]

So many armchair "vehicle dynamics experts," so few degrees in automotive engineering... Even less with experience in vehicle dynamics. 🤦🏻‍♂️ As a postgraduate qualified automotive engineer with north of 20 years of experience, including being a suspension development engineer, I can categorically state that despite how conversant I am with pushing the envelope considerably harder than the average Joe, to test stability correctly and thoroughly requires a class of driver that eclipses my capabilities by a country mile! For "Joe Average" to say "yeah, oiv done stability testin' wiv me car 'n' trayla" is absolutely laughable! Sure, doing a few swerves can give a bit of an idea of an extremely limited range of dynamic factors (few suspension engineers do it because it doesn't give very much information), but it's a far cry from doing actual stability testing. The vast majority of armchair experts here would probably be part of the "brown trouser brigade" if they were ever to be onboard a vehicle doing the upper end of the speed range for the ADR 88/- sine with dwell certification test - especially when they see the driver take his hands off the wheel and hold a couple of buttons, allowing a steering robot to rip into the steering faster than any human could hope to do. And yet, that's just a certification test, and it's only a formality to confirm to the Government that the vehicle complies with a certain minimum set of requirements. The guys with the gonads of tool steel do all manner of testing that Joe Average would consider to be insane, and they do it without ESC to ensure that the basic vehicle is up to the task. Then they do it all over again many, many times to calibrate the ESC. However, even those extremely talented individuals can't take every possible condition into account, especially when it comes to the vast array of trailers and caravans that are available. The towing limit is essentially for towing trailers that have a very low centre of gravity, driving very, very conservatively while towing them, and preferably not towing them very far. My own vehicle has a tare mass of a little over 1600kg. It has a towing capacity of 2100kg. Its tyres are good quality and have a good amount of wet and dry grip. I have a tandem axle trailer with an ATM of 2000kg (which I've never had up to its limit). The trailer tows very well, and it seems to be very stable, but even at only about 1400kg and about 140kg of ball load, when I go around a corner in slightly damp conditions, the trailer sometimes tries to push me off the road, tail end first. It never gets far enough to cause my heart to pump harder before the car's ESC kicks in, but the fact of the matter is that in those conditions, the basic vehicle isn't even truly capable of towing 1400kg without having problems. Yes, it will do the job, but it uses ESC to mask the fact that the vehicle is actually a bit too light in the back end for that weight of trailer. And that isn't even reaching the rule of thumb of equal trailer and towing vehicle masses. Towing 3.5T (or even 2.5T for that matter) behind a vehicle that has about a tonne of unladen rear axle mass (eg: most 4x4 utes and the SUVs that are based on those utes) really isn't a clever thing to do.

[@frederickburns1739]

John you get A+ for TRYING to EDUCATE the UNEDUCATED. Just keep in mind ( you can lead a JACKASS to water but you cannot make them drink!!) And in the semi trucks you don't see the use of independent suspension or coil springs. Coil springs and independent suspension about ride COMFORT!!!

[@farken7467]

I've noticed a significant decline in portaslums around our way in the Upper Hunter. I'd hazard a guess they're heading north for the winter, so their effluent won't freeze after each defecation. I'm a lifelong non caravaner and wear that badge with honour. I had a campervan in Canada and a 5th wheel set up but never will I drag a caravan around Shitsville. Financially it doesn't stack up.

[@jacquelinemaisey7695]

"Belief is a bad word" I must remember this. You may have come across Collyn Rivers if not do some Googling. You and he are pretty much on the same page, difference is he has spent a lifetime as an automotive test engineer. I would love to see a discussion with the two of you doing caravans. Maybe a 5 part special. The van industry in Oz is crap, say no more, and until you spend some time with a cross section of caravanners you haven't experienced just how thick the bottom of the social pyramid is. I have this experience and it puts me in a bad place. We like the caravan life but am becoming very depressed with the whole scene. I refuse to have a shitter in the van. Just recently, after decades towing, I have learnt to drive slow, maybe max 80. So much better, any traffic that I do hold up gets by much easier and quicker, I get to have a bit of a look around, fuel use improved much safer. It really doesn't matter when we arrive as our little house is just 4 or 5 steps away and we can stop anywhere. I could go on&on (you do) but will stop here.

[@cairnshotrod]

Just done a 4k road trip with a Pajero Sport towing 1800kg ,maybe old mate had no stability issues because he couldn't go any faster than 80kph

[@clives4501]

Inertial impact, rubber, grip - I love it when you talk dirty John.

[@skinnytroopy]

Leaf or springs? It’s only been 30 seconds and I’ve got wood. Cheers John

[@prizecowproductions]

Just curious JC do the Caravan industry skid pan trials to gain certification in regards to stability. P.s not a Caravan owner only a temporary Australian for over 40 years.

[@gazzas123]

A friend has a BT50 and a van that is 2.8 T and he said that it struggles.

[@jasonpocaro2730]

1999 Ranger has coil springs & leaf springs with easy to access shock absorbers. CHEAP & Easy to fix (12 bolts and nuts). Cadillac Escalade "Stability Control" is $2000 for the air shocks, sensor(s) and more, NOT including installation 🤯 OVER 100 Nuts, Bolts, Links & Wiring (problems) to account for 😢

[@nickmaguire4914]

I'm just here for the comments. No, seriously anecdotes plus a non controlled experiment with sample size of one is always a compelling argument.

[@shawnleigh7325]

And I have yet to see a van with independent suspension that has anti sway bars like every car has. I have followed quite a few on the highway and watch them wobble from side to side.

[@davidbrayshaw3529]

We had another caravan and car end up up-side down on a perfectly straight piece of road, not too far from me, on Friday. Ambulance, fire, police, SES, the works.

[@JohnSmith-yv6eq]

Passing a slab sided larger vehicle at the time of crashing?

[@richardwalsh5570]

The best caravan is a cheap hotel.

[@davidbrayshaw3529]

@@JohnSmith-yv6eq Anything could have happened. The road has just been resurfaced and is like the top of a billiard table and it's dual lane. There is an intersection at that spot but it was a single vehicle "accident". There's a lot of heavy traffic on that road and it's one of those zones that reduces from 110-80 and back to 110 in less than a kilometre. Anything could have happened. Given the conditions, I'm guessing either a medical episode or loss of control of the vehicle.

[@davidbrayshaw3529]

@@richardwalsh5570 Yep, and the only one that I've ever heard of ending up on its roof was in Kansas!

[@tba3900]

Did the meat wagon turn up?

[@glenn281]

Good video, keep them coming mate.

[@scottdavis8645]

Its like a lot of people have never pushed or loaded a wheel barrow, played with thier fruends outside as a child

[@z06doc86]

Already have Nord VPN, but I still watch the commercials due to the beautiful women in the presentation.

[@scaifefab4585]

Quite funny this i went yesterday 700 miles round trip to colect a new boat for a frend he has a shogun sport (uk name for pajaro) so took my v6 amarok as was 2500kgs or to Amarok bossed it like it wasnt there my own boat is 3300kgs and that extra 800 makes you have to think alot more

[@avid6186]

And yet road going caravans have been using independent suspension for 50 plus years now. Check out duratorque suspension some time. Not saying there's anything wrong with leaf springs, just not the only option.

[@neilbt478]

Back in the 70s there was even a flexible hitch using that system either side of the tongue - my father had one bolted on the rear bumper of his International panel van. The bumper was eight inch channel iron bolted on the chassis.

[@cme2cau]

The answer is a new country song "Physics will get ya if ya don't look out"

[@pilchard2000]

I really like your component bins John but I do not like the way you place tools (screwdrivers) in them , surely you realize this is a mortal sin ,and by the way nobody puts a dropsaw on the wall. Thanks for the stability video , excellent.

[@olivier_the_dilettante]

the best description for these beard stroking experts is "dilettantes", but aren't we all?

[@kippen64]

I find your information to be valuable.

[@phprofYT]

No no no. Easy fix. Ram 3500 dually with a 6.7L Cummins Turbo Diesel. Great daily driver as well.

[@233kosta]

Nearly got an anneurism when that cretin misused the word "theory", thanks for pulling him up on it.

[@NortyNige]

Listening the abuse on the CB the other day directed at the mobile shitwas you are far from alone John.

[@davidbrayshaw3529]

There is a reason that caravaners monitor UHF 18 when everyone else on the road is monitoring UHF 40.

[@isolvedagi305]

i like the t- shirt, where can i get one?

[@davidmclauchlan8261]

I would suggest we need to start a series of these racing utes towing caravans , that would be intersting ! The more I listen to you the more I think towing a van needs outlawing . Never been a fan of it and being a car enthusiast I figured long ago that it is stretching the vehicles and drivers capabilities . You can coast around thinking all is good untill a set of circumstances arise and driver and vehicles capabilities are exposed ! As a builder I always thought vans were very shodily built but after watching that video of guy overtaking truck and totaling his van but not the ute I realise they are probably made to disintergrate easily or am I giving van builders too much credit ?

[@nobody6056]

More people killed in cars every year than in caravans in decades. How about we ban cars?

[@tonylittle3508]

Too much credit. Basically they want big and spacious and as much profit as possible. To be fair, extra strength would add weight, and they are probably still going to be written-off in any crash.

[@adrianzmajla4844]

Haha! Super Ute's towing caravans would be awesome, I'd watch that.

[@hectorshouse7348]

My Sheila agrees👍

[@benjionetwo]

John i think your explaining a theorem

[@AutoExpertJC]

I'm sure I'm explaining a 'theory'. Try to keep up.

[@gregjohnson1123]

some big words there at 7 30 , i think im offended

[@JohnH1]

John, why did the caravan industry go with the crappy see saw axle set up over the wheel on each corner system that had been use in the past on horse-drawn carriages ?

[@AutoExpertJC]

Try reversing a dog trailer...

[@OntarioBearHunter]

ask farmers how fun those are behind tractors.

[@JohnH1]

@@AutoExpertJC I have, you learn how to do it and besides you spend most of your time going forward. I'll just repeat what I have said before getting a licence is too easy.

[@Ozgrade3]

@@AutoExpertJC Easy fix for that, for reversing, have a towball on your front bumper like they do on farm tractors for pushing around huge farm carts. Funny thing is, the longer the cartis the easier it is to accurately stear the cart into the sheds.