A Covenant Creation Conversation With Tim Martin

[@ericnewell4002]

This is fascinating. I have never even thought about this before. Makes me realize we need to ask more questions!

[@chriswilford4657]

John Walton's explaining genesis is very interesting i would recommend watching his material

[@gustingdis]

@@chriswilford4657 John Walton is an excellent resource for ancient near east context.

[@andreastarks2780]

This is a great discussion, I’ve been listening and reading Maurice Rogers on this paradigm as well.

[@ridewgerand1849]

Me too. Filipino full preterist here is.

[@beckyjames4855]

I agree about Montana! It's beautiful in summer and winter!!!

[@vladvalentinov]

The entire idea of the covenant creation theology came about for a single reason: evolutionism as an explanation for life, and consequent interpretation of the creation account by other means - symbolic. But it becomes nonsensical. One example: Garden of Eden is a first Temple where God dwells, them physical Temple that Solomon built, now our bodies are Temple of the Holy Spirit, but in CC view, the Garden of Eden was actual physical Temple because the real Garden contradicts evolutionary view. Birds in the Garden were also just people, leafs on trees too. Basically, there is nothing in the Genesis account that was literal, including the global floor. Why is that a problem? Because now, there is nothing to draw the parallels from; there is no need in symbolism also; why would the Garden be even called Garden? So, imagine an architect drafting a construction drawing from a physical model for a builder to erect a house. In CC there is no physical model to draft from, an architect is sketching from another sketch. It's nonsensical. And it's all just because CC proponents disagree with scientists about creation account, but agree with naturalists about evolution.

[@billhesford6098]

If you want to alienate yourself from 90% of the modern church, do Full Preterism. If you want to finish off another 10% follow Tim.😄😄

[@scotbrandon]

That is for sure. Instead of dividing on just eschatology, divide on everything else that is actually foundational to the Christian faith. Just imagine how children of these folks will end up with this confusion built on speculation of a novel paradigm masquerading as some secret knowledge the church has missed. This isn't the way to a Reformation in eschatology this is the way to a new religion.

[@ridewgerand1849]

Guilty here😅 🇵🇭

[@ridewgerand1849]

Filipino full preterist here.

[@billhesford6098]

@@scotbrandon It is a huge change for sure. I am now convinced the disciples definitely thought Jesus was coming back in their lifetime. And they got it from Jesus.

[@donaldgrantham7658]

...thanks Zach, a lot of stuff to "wrap your head around", ... blessings on your prep, looking forward to seeing you in VA in April

[@janosterud4188]

Thanks for this talk

[@monicashuart-ls1hw]

Beyond creation science is a fantastic read!

[@heartsandmindsathome]

I agree!

[@robinq5511]

@51:00 or there abouts; So it was Max King who took Preterism into Universalism? I remember there was quite the conflict about it back in the day over at Death is Defeated...when Jeff Vaughn's book 1st came out. - MoGrace2u was my pen name then.

[@timmartin4216]

Yes, I remember you. I wouldn't claim that Max King was the first. There were others before him who arrived at the same conclusion. Back in the mid 2000s, Todd Dennis of the Preterist Archive documented that Robert Townley taught full preterism and also promoted Universalism in the mid 1800s.. There were others between Townley and King as well. By the time that King's group began to adopt it, the term was "comprehensive grace." Todd came to the conclusion that Covenant Eschatology was inherently universalist and responded by abandoning FP and developing Preterist Idealism to avoid Universalist conclusions. Jeff Vaughn and myself made the claim to Todd Dennis that the solution was not to jettison FP which was demonstrably true and right, according to the Scriptures. The problem was that all the FP Universalists had accepted the traditional futurist view of Genesis creation. In other words, the problem was a FAILURE to apply covenant context to Genesis creation. We were not successful in convincing Todd Dennis about this, and he later disappeared from the scene. It's a lot of history, but the details in "Irrevocable" (Max King's last book) just show clearly once again the significance of Genesis creation. The point we made many years ago about a consistent covenant approach to the Bible, beginning in Genesis. 1:1 remains valid today.

[@robinq5511]

@@timmartin4216 I do believe that is true about God working in covenant beginning with Adam. Since what is a covenant but a decree, a judgment and a promise?

[@av2827]

Zach, you’ve never seen back to the future?! It’s so good. All of the BTTF movies are great.

[@j.reesebradley4771]

The moment we all find out Zach Davis had never seen Back to the Future…

[@timmartin4216]

I know, right!! I told him to make it a movie night with his wife, pronto.

[@j.reesebradley4771]

@@timmartin4216great advice! And Rocky!

[@ericnewell4002]

I laughed at that as well!

[@markrademaker5875]

I am thinking we should interpret the ancient near eastern thought, and all thought, through the lense of that which is God-Breathed, The Holy Bible. Let the covenant creationists put forth a commentary on Genesis 1. Thanks for listening. 1 John 4:10,11

[@gustingdis]

I find CC very compelling, the one thing that I would ask, as should be asked about every biblical text, the question is this, is it possible that the original recipient could have understood the text in the way that I understand it?

[@billhesford6098]

Can't both be true. Its like their words to us don't mean the same thing, their sentences don't mean the same thing, the subject is not what it seems - may as well not even translated it. Is it just a crazy book of meaningless anything's (to us, not the original cultures who wrote it and read it) after all is said and done. And with no certain way back?

[@gustingdis]

@billhesford6098 I'm not sure I understand what you mean. But maybe we are asking the same question Bill, was it intended to mean the same thing to the first audience as it was intended to mean to all further readers?

[@billhesford6098]

@@gustingdis We are asking the same thing, I think. If it was from God it would have to be true and true for anybody who correctly understood what God was having written. I believe the first audience definitely understood it, but what I don't get is why we are clearly confused. Do we all need to do a 10 year course in ancient Hebrew linguistics. Many have and they can't agree. To be honest and why not be honest - I find it all very confusing. Its much easier to sit within an established church with all it's accepted traditions - creeds, councils, histories and so on. But I find that disingenuous at the least, to be honest. Soul destroying to me with nowhere to turn.

[@gustingdis]

@billhesford6098 I find it disingenuous as well. I can't, in good conscience accept dogmatic teaching when I can see at least 4 different possible interpretations. It would be nice to just sit back and let someone else think for me but at this point, there is no way back.

[@billhesford6098]

@@gustingdis Yes, I get CC. Sometimes I think it is so focused on what the bible says and I get that it alone is where we will find most the answers man seeks. I generally agree with it. But it does not tell me how to bake a loaf of bread. Or how old the earth is. I don't see man being on this earth (the dirt!) for more than a few thousand years. Populations simply were not there. We know haow fast man 'breeds' and spreads. That has been done to death. Ancient ruins which appear throughout the bible, abound all over the middle east, but there is nothing in Australia and I have been over most of it. I think Moses in Genesis was repeating a well known narrative about creation that all the people groups back then seemed to be aware, having likely got that from a real ancestor in all their histories -Noah. The idea of the creation of 'heaven and earth' having nothing to do with our physical world, what most Christians would call 'heaven and earth' being no more than an account of the creation of God's special people from many other peoples already in existence leaves me wanting to know who I am. Where do I come from, how should I then live. Frankly, the yearning of most any man who can think. I find little interest in following a small ancient middle eastern cult that appeared out of nowhere and frankly, disappeared in 70ad. With many cults, all disagreeing with each other, appearing from that one confused cult. At this stage, I don't buy that one.

[@christianmichael8]

This is a fascinating subject. Connection point @ Genesis 2:3-4 with a day being a thousand years has crossed my mind many times. Why does Genesis 2:4 say these are the generations of the heavens and earth? I’ve studied this subject out periodically for years; but never heard the term covenant creation. I’m excited to hear more. Blessings to you.

[@billhesford6098]

These days I am ready to question traditional church interpretations, but in this area it reads like Gods explanation of the making of the world all man lives in. It reads more like God making physical "heaven and earth" - to me. Youngs Literal Translation has Gen 2:1-5: 1. And the heavens and the earth are completed, and all their host; 2 and God completeth by the seventh day His work which He hath made, and ceaseth by the seventh day from all His work which He hath made. "3 And God blesseth the seventh day, and sanctifieth it, for in it He hath ceased from all His work which God had prepared for making. 4 These [are] births of the heavens and of the earth in their being prepared, in the day of Jehovah God's making earth and heavens; 5 and no shrub of the field is yet in the earth, and no herb of the field yet sprouteth, for Jehovah God hath not rained upon the earth, and a man there is not to serve the ground

[@duaneking273]

Have y’all ever read Michael Morales’s book Who Shall Ascend the Mountain of the Lord? It’s a pretty cool book that gives good insight on time periods and how God interacted with men. He’s Amill in his thinking but knowing what yall know you can def make necessary adjustments.

[@chriswilford4657]

Moses leads the people out of Egypt (the world) through the red sea( babtism) into the wilderness ( trial and temptations) into the promised land ( heaven)

[@billhesford6098]

That used to mean to me God's chosen people were saved from death to life through faith, with troubles, and into eternal life at the death of our physical body. I am not sure about any of it any more. I really don't understand as to why this could not have been more easily communicated to man by an omnipotent God.

[@flamingswordapologetics]

@@billhesford6098 The gospel itself is still as simple as its ever been, trust Jesus, He paid for your sins. The more intricate difficult stuff as its figured out, begins to build a strong apologetic case as to how complex scripture is, yet its all one story, culminating into the New Covenant in Christ we're in now. I think the more we learn, put it together, the stronger case for scripture reliability it builds. It's also fascinating to see that even the most hardcore literal futurist still trusts Christ alone, and the most liberal CC Full Preterist also trusts Christ alone, again, the gospel at its foundation still works.

[@billhesford6098]

@@flamingswordapologetics . I used to hand out copies of the new testament thinking the old was basically irrelevant. I was saved after reading Hal Lindsey back in the 70's. Almost everything he said was a lie so I had to re purpose my faith. Creation science helped a lot as it correctly dismembered Darwinian evolution. I find myself doing it again with FP. Now CC is another humdinger. I think I might just go fishing.

[@flamingswordapologetics]

@@billhesford6098 Yep, we will never get all the answers until maybe after we leave this world, but FP in any form has sure helped explain a lot. God-bless

[@timmartin4216]

@@flamingswordapologetics Amen!

[@mikeworsley1773]

Is it important to have a literal first man Adam or not?

[@billhesford6098]

Only if, as an honest inquisitive man, you seek the meaning to your existence. What am I, why am I here? What am I meant to be doing? What is this existence all about anyway? I need answers to the question where did the first man LITERALY come from, how did this man (me!) get here? The rest is icing on the cake. Perhaps there is no answer and that leaves me going somewhere else.

[@mikeworsley1773]

@@billhesford6098I’m thinking a first man Adam is the linchpin, through which all peoples are condemned. Otherwise a latecomer local Adam leads to a local flood and a local consummation. People would ask: what’s it to do with me now, I’m not related to that Adam?

[@mikeworsley1773]

@@billhesford6098bill Well I’m thinking a first man Adam is the linchpin and global condemnation under the law. Otherwise a local latecomer Adam brings local flood judgement and local consummation. If all are not related to Adam then the question arises: why does it matter to me?

[@billhesford6098]

@@mikeworsley1773 Yes, if a literal Adam is not my literal father, I need to be looking elsewhere for the meaning of life for me. I want to know if its possible, who am I, where did I come from and what am I supposed to be doing. Is this one true God my Father or not? I am not particularly interested in a group of people who managed to keep their history with a fascinating story, but not connected to me, not really. I don't buy the local cult only thing. If I did, I would be gone.

[@ReformationRevelation]

Adam brought sin into the world for all mankind. This view heavily implies that mankind did not sin before Adam. It’s dangerous teaching.

[@duaneking273]

Do you thing we can see the same type of administration from Seth to Noah as we do Israel. God creating a new lineage with Abraham to get Moses and Israel’s administration leading of course to restoration and Jesus. We can get a lot of answers on what went on with Seth’s lineage intermarrying being the same as the prohibition for Israel not to intermarry etc.

[@timmartin4216]

Good observations. The one thing I will mention is that Noah is 10th from Adam. It's like Noah is a consummation man, being a type of Jesus at the end of the age and the greater flood to come. Abraham is the 10th from Noah. Following the initial pattern, we do have a fresh start with Abraham. Abraham is called out of darkness, he has a "deep sleep" like Adam, he is tempted by his wife to doubt God's word, etc. I have not been able to reconstruct how many generations between Abraham and Moses, but I suspect something similar there. One theory is that these developments in the OT match the days of Genesis 1 in a prophetic way. Day 1 - light - Adam Day 2 - waters divided -Noah/Babel Day 3 - land- Abraham circumcision forms Israel land and separates gentiles as sea Day 4 - Sun moon and stars for signs and seasons - Moses and Levitical system with tabernacle temple Day 5 - blessing on fish/birds - conversion of Nebuchadnezzar and Gentile kingdoms Day 6- forming of land animals and man and woman- last days arrival of Jesus, forming of the church and inclusion of Gentiles Day 7 - Sabbath - no evening or morning , no beginning or end. The New Covenant everlasting day of God' dwelling in the temple of his people.

[@duaneking273]

I totally agree with covenant creation actually having Adam being the first soul given the possible authority to execute Gods divine judgement of blessing and curse if he would’ve remained faithful. Then began a deconstruction of approach leading to Seth’s administration which could be a type of Israel where God is still dwelling with a specific group of people. After Noah God shows up to people, but doesn’t have a specific group he dwells with anymore. Even Abraham he’s not dwelling with , but preparing a people to dwell with, Israel/Seth leading to Jesus as the last Adam unto which the soul of all is restored and allowing God to dwell with all of mankind, even though there is a city type barrier(Jerusalem peace with God) which would’ve been the initial world set up if Adam would’ve remained faithful. That’s what’s so poignant and absurd in the NT and phrase Jesus is coming instead of God specifically, a man/ Acts 17:31) would have the authority to execute the covenant blessings and curse that only the Father had administered throughout time after Adam’s death(Souls pollution until restored) Thats sort of how I see the regression, and progression regarding purpose of certain people and administrations up until now.

[@duaneking273]

I think the work you’re doing on covenant creation is great. Lived the Pearl usage in your conference presentation, which I had never thought about before. It was spot on!.

[@timmartin4216]

@@duaneking273 I have a presentation on Acts 17: kzbin.info/www/bejne/pobKdGt_ipt9m7M Thanks.

[@duaneking273]

I was reading 2nd Peter and in chapter 3 it shows the first heavens and earth being destroyed by water(Adam to Noah) and the 2nd about to be destroyed by fire(Moses). Maybe this represents the two types of purification necessary to undergo restoration of all things like the vessels in Numbers 31:22-24. Water purified the land of the first heavens and earths pollution, where as fire thoroughly cleansed the land from all of its corruption finally, leading us to the 3rd heavens and earth or final administration where God dwells with all of man, instead of a specific people like Seth and Moses.

[@chriswilford4657]

Is the church post Ad70 covenantle?

[@duaneking273]

Could we say Israel’s covenants are specific to them with the purpose of being the final representation of Adam(man of sin) and the first representation of Jesus, leading to the souls restoration for all men, where as Adam’s representation polluted all of mankind’s soul(death) only allowing temporal animal sacrifice and physical ordnances for the flesh to atone and clean temporarily. Jesus crucified the flesh, final step leading to the souls redemption, which is why He was the first to judge the soul of man and hand a purified soul/kingdom to God beginning a new world(heavens and earth). New form of worship and approach that never intended animal sacrifice in the beginning. Soul is alive to God, polluted(death, no substitute until Jesus, then leading to life(souls ability to approach and be washed throughout life, because the fleshly ordinances are no longer a barrier. When 1st Peter is talking about the souls salvation that is an unprecedented occurrence in man’s history, and the purpose and definition of Jesus undoing Adam and giving life to all men, although all men will not wash their souls defilement, hence the necessity for judgement and the 2nd death now where the souls verdict is guilty vs the soul being condemned to death(1st death) yet not a finality, but separation until judgement.

[@JamesLJesus]

Their book has a terrible title.

[@timmartin4216]

What would you recommend for a better title?

[@JamesLJesus]

@@timmartin4216 What you're for not against, Less alienating.

[@timmartin4216]

@ ok. Thanks.

[@Ditchdiggerpewsitter]

@@timmartin4216 ????? maybe to get the ball rolling - Let there be light - Covenant creation beginning with Adam