A Critique of Hyper Charismatic Approaches to Demonic Deliverance

[@deebater5711]

Thanks so much Jordan. I am a patron of your site - and a former Charismatic pastor who went through 20 years plus of this non-sense. The thing it leaves you with is a 'cloudy brain' regarding so many issues. So grateful for Lutheran theology and a revelation of the sacraments! (And your ministry)...Gods rich blessings...

[@mikeduke8932]

Thanks for not playing the Copeland or Kuhlman clips or I’d have to sleep with the light on. 😁

[@IvanGonzalez-mp4xh]

Amazing work! Even a year later your video is reaching people like myself. Glory to God for this work that transforms lives. Thankful for Lutheran theology that has made clear a path that was once quagmired in un-cohesive charismatic doctrine for decades.

[@RealSnail3D]

Shew to say you’re teaching has helped me reorder/toss out junk would be an understatement.

[@ChaplainDaveSparks]

A couple of thoughts on the book of _Acts_ that a lot of people forget (myself included): Whereas the main portions of the gospels cover a roughly 3 ½ year period of time, Acts covers much more time. It’s not the _”miracle a day”_ story that you might perceive when reading it without historical context. Given the selectivity of covering decades in only 28 chapters, the Holy Spirit (and Luke) obviously exercised some editorial discretion. My inference from that is that what’s recorded must be *IMPORTANT* in some way. Someone asked one of the pastors in a church I previously attended why a _”deliverance service”_ at another church will see multiple demons manifesting and being cast out, but you never see it at our church? His answer was that our church did perform exorcisms upon occasion, but they were mostly done in private. His opinion was that demons would incite their _”possess-ees”_ to go to deliverance services because they enjoyed the attention!

[@CRoadwarrior]

I think you brought a reasonable balance and thoughtfulness to this topic, Dr. Cooper.

[@vngelicath1580]

We also forget on that issue of pastoral authority/training in connection with the Roman view of 'character indeliblis', that the ordination rite implies a unique conferral of the Holy Spirit upon the ordininand (Matthew 28; John 20). The minister's authority is bound up in a "charisma" that is unique to his office, and goes beyond the mode by which the Spirit is given to all in baptism for salvation (without which he would be just an ordinary man operating on his own authority). I think that's important in this issue of Charismatic vs Catholic (broadly speaking) debate on the minister of exorcism... we all have the Holy Spirit, but not all for the same vocation/authorization (same with Word and Sacrament, etc.)

[@vngelicath1580]

Touching on the issue of "monotheism" and "deism".. I've listened to enough of Heiser to get a sense of what he's getting at. It's very possible that he's defining the term in a novel way, but it is also true that in much of the 'History of Religions' literature, there is an implication that when "monotheism" (so Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam) replaced "polytheism", a rejection of the reality of these pagan deities came with it. Heiser's point is that Yahwism (Christianity) came not to replace belief in the reality of many gods, but rather to critique the worship of these beings as demonic (elohim/theos -- 'god', being used in a plurality of ways in the Old Testament). So it's terminological largely. I'm not so tied to him as some, but I appreciate his insight in this regard and do think a danger of (modern) monotheism _can_ be a direction toward deism.

[@London-Lad]

Keep on doing what you are doing Dr Cooper, because you're doing it well.

[@Outrider74]

A very good video, Dr. Cooper, and as I'm no longer on facebook I'm glad to keep up with what you're doing through KZbin and the podcasts! A few things I'd like to throw in. 1.) Your emphasis on the "ordinary" Christian life is a tremendous one, and one that really bears talking about on a video/podcast all by itself. The reason being is that, oftentimes, the idea of the "ordinary" Christian life is not "glamorous" enough (for lack of a better way to put it) in the eyes of most of modern evangelicalism. It is fascinating to me how many times I have heard the regular means of Bible reading, prayer, and church attendance for communion of the saints put down (in both charismatic and non-charismatic churches alike) as being "going through the motions" or "not REALLY spiritual enough," when in truth they are truly our greatest, most vital aspect of walking by faith. 2.) Something else I want to throw out there with you regarding "Pigs in the Parlor," the first people I remember talking to me about that book (while in college) were not all charismatics; at least one proponent of the book that I recall attended a Nazarene church. This speaks to a greater issue that perhaps deserves attention from you or somebody else wanting to tackle the subject: that the evangelical church at large is being assimilated into at least degrees of the charismatic movement. It's very hard to find a denomination that is NOT affected by the modern charismatic/pentecostal doctrines nowadays, and to a degree this is also true of the charismatic idea of demons and demon possession that you lay out in this video. 3.) Don Mazat, the first host of Issues, etc., had a time when he was influenced by charismaticism in this area. Here's the article he wrote about it: issuesetcarchive.org/issues_site/resource/journals/v2n2.htm

[@Mygoalwogel]

Yes! I had a friend who had been charismatic before becoming atheist and then getting a job at my school. He said it shocked him that a quiet life of family, friendship, faith, and fidelity to your job is actually pleasing to God. He became Christian again. (Lutheran)

[@davpp239]

Thank you, pastor Cooper. Great explanation. This is what I highlighted the most: repentance is the key. Amen!

[@bbharat307]

Thank you Dr. My takeaway is ,focus on The Lord Jesus Christ rather than devil.

[@sonkramarczyk9288]

Thank you Dr. Cooper, this is great teaching, and explaining spiritual realms and physical realms.

[@ArsontAngelfire]

Based on what you said here, I'm in agreement with your view on Heisner. One of the deciding factors for me transitioning out of my E. Free church into Lutheranism was the way Heisner was being upheld and taught by the youth pastor (I was the "intern" with the youth ministry).

[@emilydixon6151]

Heiser literally goes out of his way to demonstrate how the information he presents was the original way of reading the text. He spends a great deal of time and resources to share his source materials.

[@Angela-uz3sq]

Thank you! I agree with you 100%.

[@erichodge567]

Pastor Cooper, is there a way to get a full recording of the guitar version of "A Mighty Fortress" that begins your videos? I've always loved the tune, and it sounds beautiful on guitar. You've got to love Martin Luther. He changes world history, AND writes a hit song. Now that's a life.

[@nealstafford9063]

John Warwick Montgomery's work "Principalities and Powers" is a real gem here. His film review of the Excorist is magnificent.

[@Alex-gg3qm]

Bullet points or an outline in the description would be helpful!

[@CRoadwarrior]

I've done an entire series of over 30 videos on this topic, dealing with books like "Pigs in the Parlor" and others. The "deliverance" teaching is not Biblical, and I hope you find it helpful, in my playlist called "Can a Christian Have a Demon?"

[@rudyb690]

Thank you!

[@anorman728]

What you say at 57:45 about signs of unrepentant sins sounds similar to auditing in Scientology.

[@Habackuk24]

Sounds like there is a similarity between Heiser's method and that of the New Perspective on Paul. Not that they are that similar otherwise, but how do they view the clarity and sufficiency of Scripture?

[@minto7699]

The closer you get to God the more Satan will try and enter your life. Satan won't bother you if your not a threat.

[@scottboyte9050]

Good work Dr. C.

[@adamhorstman3398]

Are there any Lutheran organizations, local churches, clergy, etc involved in deliverance ministry here in America? I'm sure there are individual pastors who do exorcisms and house blessings, and such...

[@randalwdeese]

For conversation, the Liturgy is not found in the Epistles either.

[@Melvin_Thoma]

Thanks for this. A good one 👍

[@reimannsum9077]

As evidenced by its impact on my own family members who are never under subjection to the Word because they "know the author of scripture," and "the Holy Spirit leads them into all truth," so any biblical rebuttal can be dismissed as a misreading, the modern Charismatic movement is one of the greatest dangers to peoples' faith and their ability to know the Truth of God through his unchanging and stable revelation. The allure of "experiential Christianity" - the working of miracles, the possession of spiritual power to "speak things that are not as if they were" and make them come to pass, the assumption of the attributes and capabilities (sinless perfectionism, etc.) of Christ) - is terribly seductive and leads to vainglory. Reflection on their demonology and so-called Deliverance ministries merely scratches the surface, but this preliminary exploration of one of their source texts is quite helpful. Thank you for it.

[@breannawilliamson9787]

I used to be hyper. Man, every time I watch your podcast, I get A Mighty Fortress stuck in my head and ask myself why the words are so strange. 😂 Oh boy, I like Michael Heiser. 😳

[@anorman728]

I like your Café Nervosa mug.

[@memesofconcord1]

Could you do a short video on why 1 Peter 2:8 doesn't support predestination to damnation? I've already watched your video on Romans 9 quite a few times, and I understand it as it pertains to Romans 9, but I'm too ignorant to see it's connection to 1 Peter 2:8.

[@Mygoalwogel]

*Luke 7:30* God's βουλή (plan/purpose/resolve/counsel) for the Pharisees was to accept them. But they rejected this βουλή of God for themselves, by refusing John's baptism. 1 Peter 2:8 The phrase "which they were destined to do" can legitimately refer to "disobey the word" OR "stumble" in Greek. So either, "...disobey the word, which they were destined to do" OR "stumble ..., which they were destined to do." In light of Luke 7:30, if we believe Peter does not contradict Luke, it's better to conclude "those who disobey the word are destined to stumble" NOT "Those who stumble were destined to disobey the word." This teaches us a much more salutary lesson as well. Be afraid to disbelieve the word of life because, if you hear God and disobey his Gospel, you will certainly stumble and have difficulty coming to the truth.

[@arthurbrugge2457]

Copeland looks and acts like every "insane, megalomanic christian" villain in movies, books, etc. Not to mention the demon possession😉

[@severalstories3420]

I feel like you skipped over something that could be a real sticking point : How would you claim the necessary authority then? The demon said it knew Paul. How would it know you? How would your training give you that recognition? Do demons acknowledge the subtleties of our Protestant teachings about the transmission of authority via the bishopric or in synods or whatever? Everyone can baptize, right? And baptism includes exorcism, right? But you don’t recognize exorcism by the laity in other cases? Why not?

[@scottboyte9050]

The demon knew Paul because Paul was saved. I don't believe the seven brothers were saved, but were merely attempting an exorcism.

[@elainejan]

Thank you for sharing your wisdom and thoughtfulness. I really appreciate your videos.

[@johnlong8037]

GOOD INFORMATION...

[@Eloign]

The Jewish exorcists were not believers.

[@basimgullord7425]

It is a "new denomination" - "the last reformation", that preformes exorcism at the baptism. "The last reformation" is a really bad movement, but the exorcisms they preformes looks much the same as those preformed in way out charismatic churches such as TB Joshua and others. But the difference I belive, is that it is not people that's getting payed to let themselves being "exorcised", but something " real". I belive this is about hypnosis, as also others have suggested, but then again I dont know. Could be intersseting to hear your opinion about "the last reformation" and how they preformes exorcism. And also your thoughts on hypnosis connected to exorcism

[@Edward-ng8oo]

I agree that James when talking of double mindedness wasn't referring to what is now termed schizophrenia, but whilst I think that Charismatic deliverance ministry is largely bogus I do happen to believe that things like schizophrenia and multiple personality disorder are basically caused by demons. I don't accept that they're simply psychological states. When schizophrenics for instance hear voices accusing them of various things, and telling them to harm themselves and others, I do believe that the voices they hear are attributable to demons. That to my mind is the plain Christian explanation for what is happening, and would have been the accepted explanation amongst Christians before the rise of modern psychology and psychiatry. These latter two however aren't sciences but only the theories of unenlightened people who are mostly opposed to Christianity, and it is unfortunate that many have been deceived by them. It seems that an authentic Christian understanding of the role of the demonic in so-called mental illness is sadly lacking, and that what has happened is that people have gone off in two opposite directions, either towards rejecting the role of demons altogether or into accepting a wacky Charismatic interpretation. When talking of so-called mental illness as distinct from other illnesses which don't involve the mind, I think that demons are largely responsible. I've also suffered in the past from OCD and I'm sure now that it was caused by demons. They caused me to have intrusive anxiety causing thoughts which led me to perform compulsive actions in order to get rid of them. That obviously isn't consistent with being a Christian with the Holy Spirit, and at the time I was suffering from this my faith was sadly lacking. It was only when I returned to the faith that these intrusive thoughts disappeared.

[@ArsontAngelfire]

Both/and. I think mental conditions can be based both in the reality of our physical nature, while also being exacerbated by demonic influence. Anecdotally, I constantly deal with depression, albeit less now than before. In my childhood/teens, I was suicidal, and hospitalized on several different occasions. Childhood trauma and sexual abuse played a large part in this. I can point to some factors and triggers that are not strictly demonic per se (See sexual abuse), but there were also times where I saw shadows dancing around the foot of my bed, encouraging me to kill myself. So I tend to think both/and.

[@Edward-ng8oo]

@@ArsontAngelfire One's mental state is obviously governed by one's experiences, and one can feel depressed because of particular life circumstances when there might not be any direct demonic input. But where depression is long lasting and there's no obvious reason why a person should feel that way I think we have to look to the demonic by way of explanation and not think in terms of a person's defective brain chemistry being the cause. Differences in brain chemistry between the mentally well and unwell are, to my mind, the effect rather than the cause. It's understandable that those who suffer abuse at the hands of others will have negative thoughts about their situation, but if this gravitates into suicidal depression then I'm convinced that this is caused by demons. It's a case of demons preying upon vulnerable people in order to exacerbate their suffering and cause them maximum harm.

[@ArsontAngelfire]

@@Edward-ng8oo This is where I disagree. I think differences in brain chemistry, particularly in the neurodivergent or afflicted are a result of the fall itself, and don't require specific demonic influence to persist. I also think specific demonic influences can manifest in symptoms such as depression or self-harm (Eg, Mk. 9:14 ff). This is why I believe in the both/and model, which is also why I think it's unhelpful to simply treat every specific case of mental affliction as only a case of demonic oppression.

[@Edward-ng8oo]

@@ArsontAngelfire Luther's view was that the brain can't negatively affect the mind so as to cause depression, because he attributed the cause of melancholy to the devil: All heaviness of mind and melancholy come of the devil; especially these thoughts, that God is not gracious unto him: that God will have no mercy upon him, etc. Whosoever thou art, possessed with such heavy thoughts, know for certain, that they are a work of the devil. God sent his Son into the world, not to affright, but to comfort. Therefore be of good courage, and think, that henceforward thou art not the child of a human creature, but of God, through faith in Christ, in whose name thou art baptized; therefore the spear of death cannot enter into thee; he has no right unto thee, much less can he hurt or prejudice thee, for he is everlastingly swallowed up through Christ. (DCXXX, Table Talk, Hazlitt)

[@ArsontAngelfire]

@@Edward-ng8oo Sure, and that passage doesn't preclude a both/and care solution. Notice that "devil" in the passage is singular, whereas in hyper charismatic circles they're referring to demons (plural). I think there can be a difference between something being a work of the devil and something being due to a specific demonic influence, as the idea is presented in common culture.