A Few Last Changes Before Perfection: The Colt Models 1909 & 1910

[@gsm1091]

It’s crazy how much the grip angle improves the aesthetics of the gun

[@wesleygay8918]

That's a your mileage may vary thing. As much as I love the .45 style grip with its roughly 45 degree grip angle, the most intuitive shooting grips I've handled have about an 86 degree angle or basically almost L shaped frame. Now granted a good portion of this experience comes from my years dealing in high end paintball guns and competition. But seeing as marksmanship and close quarters combat are a large part of that sport I feel the experience translates pretty well. I had guys who insulted my sidearms inability to point on a target with a modern shooting grip, saying it was unrealistic and therefore impractical. Didn't stop me from embarassing them on the playing field.

[@SMECHOULAN]

Yes, the pre 1910 models look so much nicer!

[@gavinsmith6108]

It's all about them angles baby

[@ThatGuy-te9wh]

Part of it is that we're all used to the end 1911, so the various prototypes all look "wrong"

[@TheSfoil]

I imagine the designers at Savage would sit at their desk shaking their fists grumbling “Browning.”

[@TheRogueWolf]

Military: We like the design, but there's some flaws we'd like you to correct. Hugo Borchardt: No. The weapon is perfect as it is. John Browning: Oh, we already got that fixed in the next model. Have a look!

[@Predator42ID]

Some General in his office talking to a bureaucrat: Lets face it we do this just to make the arms industries feel better because every time we find a problem with these guns. That John Browning has already designed a new and better one in the time it takes to test them.

[@Ealsante]

That insane guy who designed the Mars pistol: WHAT WAS THAT? I CANNOT HEAR YOU!

[@tarmaque]

Ettore Bugatti was once asked why he insisted on using the already archaic cable brakes on his race cars in the early 20th century. His reply: "My cars are made to go; not stop!" This was about the time his cars started losing races because it was becoming apparent that good brakes were just as important as powerful engines.

[@DiggingForFacts]

And that's why DWM went forward with Georg Luger's designs. When it comes down to it, having someone who's not to proud to admit that improvements can be made and also is willing to make them is one of the best things you can have.

[@colemanmoore9871]

@@tarmaque If I recall correctly, the biggest jump in average speed in racing came with the advent of disk breaks.

[@KSPilo]

It's amazing, how some additional degrees of grip angle make a guns appearance way more attractive.

[@tlshortyshorty5810]

PỺO's MƎᴻTɐʟ MƎʟTdowɴs Well, a beavertail too.

[@alun7006]

The earlier ones just look really awkward and uncomfortable. Form follows function, etc.

[@NoTimeForThatNow]

Some people still like the tokarev, smh

[@svStargate]

That’s why the a earlier ones look like an old Sig 😬

[@Drew_42]

Probably also bias and expectations, too.

[@damstachizz]

That 1909 is going to go for some big bucks, being the actual origin of pretty much everything modern.

[@davidmeyer8930]

Lot 1475 (1910)-estimated 85k-130k. Lot 1477 (1909)-estimated 70k-110k.

[@workingguy-OU812]

@@davidmeyer8930 Wow. Yeah. The 1910 was my choice... thank you for the post, as I would have actually searched for it. Way, WAY beyond my means, but that 1910 is everything. There will hopefully be some American collector, and 1911 aficionado, who will buy it. Would be a real shame to allow it out of the country. Historical items such as these - American history - should be relegated to staying within the USA, and owned by natural born citizens.

[@Predator42ID]

So Browning also invented and or perfected the slide stop that we are all familiar with on modern pistols. From Glock to Remington there is no escaping Browning.

[@Hawk1966]

@Louis Sanderson I wouldn't be surprised. That man has more one off, one of a kind than I've seen outside of museums. And you KNOW we haven't seen it all. There's got to be stuff in there we'll never see just because of the provenance.

[@eyeamstrongest]

@@workingguy-OU812 its not that serious my guy

[@shawnr771]

Very cool. The M1911A1 was the first pistol I was actually taught to shoot in the late 1980s before the US Army transitioned to the M9. I put a lot of rounds through that one.

[@RowenJ420]

My father served from 1970 to 1982 and he loved his Singer 1911, he shot on the pistol team for the US Army in West Germany for years with it

[@j.tgrooms]

They look really good for their age. It's cool to see the guns that led up to the Colt 1911

[@theannoyingfan100]

They are a 110 years old and look almost modern, worn out but still modern. Thats crazy

[@Brawler_1337]

I still remember the 1903 Pocket Hammer that Ian looked at in his comprehensive 1911 development video where the finish on the slide was still in beautiful condition. That thing was gorgeous.

[@tammysilverwolf1085]

It's so fascinating to see the iteration that went into this, I was vaguely familiar with the 1911 from my military service (knew some people that swore by it. Wasn't huge into guns at the time myself.) and I always thought it was just a cool gun that's been around for a long time. But I /love/ seeing the creativity and choices that went into its production and the reasons that they're like that. Thanks so much for all you do, Ian. You've always been one of my favorite parts of KZbin, but every video you release I learn an all new respect and admiration for your work. Hope you and yours are staying safe and healthy.

[@51WCDodge]

I'll bet a lot swore at it :-)

[@tammysilverwolf1085]

@@51WCDodge Nearly as much as the 249 xD

[@JohnDoe-pv2iu]

6000 rounds without a single malfunction is remarkable for any weapon, e even today. This is absolutely amazing to achieve 110 years ago when semiautomatic was a super new technology. Great video, John

[@drmaudio]

For a pistol that many consider divine inspiration, this is a great reminder that though Browning was clearly inspired and talented , his great firearms came more from blood, sweat, and tears than epiphany.

[@dazaspc]

A gun made by John Browning that he actually fettled. These wont be cheap.

[@darrenbrashaw8409]

Calling Mr Fireplace!!!

[@ironhead2008]

Assuming the seller doesn't pull it from auction. I'd have a hard time letting a gun like that go at any price...

[@Predator42ID]

@@JjJj-fq2dh Well considering John browning's fathers harmonica gun sold for that range. its not surprising.

[@con6lex]

Starting bids are 60k and 75k.

[@mrtlsimon]

WOW! Thanks for bringing us this information, I would never see these firearms otherwise. A 6,000 round endurance test would be a challenge for some of today's handguns.

[@ThatGuy-te9wh]

Taking a step back - think about how crazy it is that Ian is just casually holding what might be one of the most influential pistols (not designs - the exact 1909 handgun he's holding) of all time and is making a video on it.

[@Spartan265]

He was a god damn genius when it comes to firearms. 100 years from now people will still recognize the 1911. I need one.

[@Predator42ID]

100 years from now the M2 will still be blasting in the name of freedom.

[@metalbob3335]

@@Predator42IDthere is still a couple M2's still in service today in the Army since the Great War.

[@Predator42ID]

@@metalbob3335 There were no M2s in the great war.

[@kevburger]

Looking at the finish on that Colt 1909 makes me feel a whole lot better about the finish on my Colt 1903.

[@fatjeezussouthtexasoutdoor5244]

When I was in the Army the Beretta was new and a few of the hard core older officers still carried the 1911 as they refused to carry anything else.

[@xgford94]

Othias is crying...seeing the whole cast of his 1911 episode lead in all here for sale.... but so out of C&R’s budget

[@RobinRobertsesq]

But but ..... War Weren't Declared

[@ironhead2008]

I'm betting he had Ian take some obnoxiously detailed pics though. Probably made him take the lightbox with him!

[@xgford94]

ironhead2008 I think you are correct, I’m thinking these vids will be referred to in the description in the 1911 episodes at least, if not actually filmed for use directly

[@johnpalmer5131]

I find it ironic that Calvary had so much influence on the development of the 1911 pistol given their impending obsolescence of the horse mounted soldiers.

[@colbunkmust]

the last model of US cavalry sword was adopted in 1913, and the last horse mounted cavalry charge the US participated in was in 1945 in Austria...

[@noclass2gun342]

@@colbunkmust not sure if it counts as a cavalry charge, but 5th group SF road horses into battle in the very first days of the global war on terror. Watch the movie 12 strong.

[@ronaldlollis8895]

John Palmer - just like us current Crusty Old Geezers, they didn’t foresee the impending doom of the pony soldier, so the will to fight and win was still there. Look up and watch “In Pursuit of Honor” with Don Johnson about the military ending the cavalry units. It’s really good.

[@dbmail545]

Cavalry was the only branch of the service that had much use for pistols. Almost a primary weapon for a horseman while only a backup weapon for every other branch.

[@alanniederlitz6950]

calvary is a church denomination, cavalry is horse mounted troops

[@usbiv223]

Thank you for this pair of videos. My two .45s are a WWII mil spec 1911 and a USP. I love the grip angle and controls. SO educational to learn about the evolution of the 1911; looking back on how I was taught about firearms, one would think JMB simply laid an egg and a 1911 was inside. This was a truly wonderful, educational experience. Thank you Gun Jesus!

[@Hysteria98]

I know we've all been here a long while now, but still I am reminded at how amazing it is to have a 100+ years old, functioning, pristine-looking mechanical piece of art staring us in the face. Just incredible.

[@Hawk1966]

It's so cool watching these weapons slowly morph and change, Browning and others behind the curtain changing the game while it's still being played. They've got something new and unique the moment you say "Welllllll, maybe?" And suddenly, the 1911 and it still wasn't done improving!

[@stumpy990]

Ian, you really need to get out to the Browning Firearm Museum in Ogden UT. It's pretty much all Browning prototypes.

[@ALRinaldi]

Sounds like I need to add a stop to my road trip bucket list.

[@Predator42ID]

@@ALRinaldi It's well worth it, the cost is cheap and besides the old trains and cars the Browning part on the second floor is like stepping into one of the nearby temples. Also I fully agree Ian needs to go their as it would give the museum some good publicity.

[@oso1165]

That 1910 is one of the most gorgeous pistols I've ever seen. Love the lines

[@exquisitecorpse4917]

"Yeah....it's OK, but the Colt revolver won two wars!!" - at least one US Marine

[@badpossum440]

If you go back in time ,probably 5 or 6.

[@sleepyrasta420]

The webley won two world wars too

[@thegoldencaulk2742]

"Browning's Automatic? I don't see it going very far...." - some cavalry guy

[@o8o8das]

TheGoldenCaulk - sometime in the 1980s: “polymer guns? I don’t see it going very far”. Today: “3D printed guns? I don’t see it going very far”. I guess there are naysayers in every generation haha!

[@richardhunter9995]

This metallic cartridge thing will never catch on.

[@reicherruschach3727]

"Boomsticks replacing swords? I don't see that as anything beyond a tale of fiction." - some guy in the 12th century

[@wowomatic]

Magazine rifles will never catch on! All they will accomplish is allowing our conscripts to waste ammunition with greater efficiency.

[@o8o8das]

“Full auto??! What a waste!!”

[@modrobert]

Awesome, interesting and informative. Having fired the 1911 it has such a nice rythm when recoil lets it slowly fall into position for next shot, feels good. I think both contenders in these final trials are cool designs.

[@AshleyPomeroy]

The description of the tests is fascinating. Nowadays the 1911 is a classic old pistol but it must have been the HK23 of its day. I wonder if they had a couple of soldiers fire and reload it for twelve hours, or if they used some kind of trigger-pulling testing machine?

[@timothyboles6457]

You've been able to get your hands and camera on almost all of the various types of guns that eventually became the 1911 or 3 or 4 videos which is a feat in and of itself, and it's been very interesting to see all of the progression

[@TheMrPeteChannel]

Gun Jesus tells us another wonderful tale from the left hand of the Gun God himself! John Browning!

[@Bl4ckD0g]

15 out of 6000 rounds is only 1/4 of 1%. That's pretty spectacular for any gun.

[@0115Heather]

Wow. Those are super cool pieces of firearm history. Thank you for the history lesson and for sharing these with us.

[@happyhaunter_5546]

The quantum leap from the 1907 and 1911 is so impressive.

[@gunner678]

Great pistol. However I have a lot to thank my browning 9mm for. It got me home relatively safe! This however is an icon, great to shoot, great to look at. Smashing piece of history.

[@mikedee6173]

Thanks Ian for the informative video.

[@splunky6314]

Browning and colt: an iconic duo.

[@FireFlash89]

I guess it pays to browse the auction house. Early access to videos!

[@rocpile1141]

Great work Ian, thanks again!!

[@thomassymonds6308]

that vintage metal shine looks so good. thanks Ian!

[@moehoward01]

Neat history. Thanks, Ian.

[@ben-eg7kx]

Very interesting as usual keep up the great work

[@johnfrench5279]

Objecting to the use two of hands to empty and reload seems odd considering this could'nt be done with the existing revolvers either.

[@marshaul]

Perhaps, but the last thing I think I'd want to do while on horseback and on the move during a fight is fiddle with a heel mag release. I don't blame them for hating it.

[@beavisbutt-headson3223]

@@marshaul Yeah, even if you have to do it two-handed anyway, trying to hit that tiny heel release while your horse is bucking around seems like it'd be a pain.

[@jimmydesouza4375]

As I understand it, the logic was that the cavalryman must always have a hand on the reigns. With the 1892 that was standard at the time, you'd open the cylinder, ram the extractor against your leg or whatever to eject the empty shells, then transfer the gun into your left hand which was holding the reigns and reload. No huge amount of manual dexterity needed, you just stick your thumb through the cylinder space in the frame or something. No comparable way to do that with a heel release as you have to have both a good grip on the handgun and also be able to operate the release and hold the mag with the other hand. Though I am not a turn of the century cavalryman so I might have it all wrong :D.

[@johnfrench5279]

There is only one answer to this: InRangeTV. Ian and Karl get out your revolvers and heel activated autos and get on your horses. You guys got to test this!

[@chadington6029]

You technically can unload and empty revolver with one hand such as the .38s they were using. You can open the cylinder with one hand and access the ejector with a finger. Reloading is a different story though.

[@bills6093]

Not sure why but, "CALIBRE 45 RIMLESS SMOKELESS" just sounds cool and looks good on the slide.

[@RockIslandAuctionCompany]

My body is ready.

[@JimBo-ho8qw]

Well, thanks a damn lot! I have a Springfield PX9109L already and now I want another 1911 thanks to this video. But I need a new computer too. So, now I have to explain to the wife why I need both. Damn!

[@1959Edsel]

3:07 This looks remarkably like how the Korth pistol ejects its magazine clear of the gun. How far would the magazine have traveled without Ian's hand to block it?

[@android61242]

I am really appreciating this steady stream of updates during this stint at home.

[@Hansengineering]

These videos were all made before the virus got hold. There will eventually be a dip in volume and quality.

[@jesperohlrich]

The description of enlisted infantry has got to be the best description I have ever heard, I’m literally out of breath, I have seldom laughed so hard or so much :D

[@hankskorpio5857]

Thanks for another great vid

[@CrazyPetez]

Excellent presentation, especially with two pre-1911 pistols as examples.

[@droidlittle582]

Now that is some history you have there!

[@therealkillerb7643]

Thank you! Very informative and well delivered presentation that aptly illustrates an important part of American military handgun history.

[@RobinRobertsesq]

Great video Ian

[@BMW_MAN]

5:17 xD yeah grip safety

[@ProbInsane]

He was trying to do the trick where you depress the grip safety with the hammer.

[@protoculture289]

That 1909 is a beautiful handgun

[@Awesome_1789]

Nice information and really good story.

[@sidewinder666666]

I have a Combat Commander, the "little brother" of the 1911, and I absolutely love it. Never a malfunction, except for an occasional stovepipe when using lower-power budget (read "cheap") ammo for target practice. My motto is ".45 ACP, because having to shoot the perp twice is silly."

[@justinbellott7137]

Great video guys! Keep up the good work!

[@waynehead7271]

Actual trial guns ... very cool! I really appreciate your work. Please keep it up.

[@andrew1977au]

Thank you, good little series

[@terrysanders2817]

Great story-telling voice!

[@90FF1]

Were there engineering drawings for these earlier firearms? Did JB just toss out a verbal description of what he wanted, then throw a piece of metal onto his machinist's bench? Owning one of the original drawings, if they even exist, along with one of the prototypes or test guns would be the grand prize!

[@Predator42ID]

Yes JB designed every single weapon and part onto paper, that is how he patented them. That said for him the paper was just a formality as his siblings often saw him and described him moving his hands. Assembly and disassembling every component like he was handling a real weapon then upon completion put it to paper then he would begin building the thing. Such was his genius that the media at the time questioned why he stopped to do a two year mission.

[@SootHead]

A great series on a legendary firearm! Wish I liked shooting them more than I do.

[@slashdotism]

Story time with Ian

[@jameslockhart3102]

Thanks for makin

[@vishalkaushal4311]

These are the holy grail of pistols. There might be something better or more expensive but this is sheer perfection.

[@vishalkaushal4311]

@The Prometheus Project i meant to talk in regard of the development that led to m1911. That certainly is something special.

[@messmeister92]

So you’re saying the best automatic pistol came to be because some needy cavalrymen wouldn’t stop complaining. (Edit: “Arguably” the best. Personal preference may vary.)

[@colbunkmust]

The CZ-75 wasn't tested by cavalrymen...

[@colbunkmust]

@@titanscerw Don't worry, I don't expect every single Czech to have the right amount of appreciation for the the best auto pistol.

[@messmeister92]

ColBunkMust I am speaking in terms of its historical significance and innovation. Maybe the CZ is a better operating pistol (I don’t have the experience to make that judgement), but it came 64 years’ worth of lessons learned later. Your preference may vary. 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@colbunkmust]

@@messmeister92Yeah, I'm just joshing ya :P

[@chrisgabbert658]

messmeister92 you ever shout off a horse ?

[@hezigler]

Fascinating video, one of the best this plague year.

[@therugburnz]

6000 rounds and no malfunctions. I like that firearm better now even though I have never fired one.

[@TheRevoltingMan]

What was the history on those individual guns? That had to be a great story too.

[@blingbling574]

Do a video on those Rhodesian short shorts!

[@wabashriver4700]

Great info as always.

[@APSMCMLXXXII]

Wow! Very strict quality control, the 1911 is a great pistol indeed, obviously it’s, in practical terms, a little outdated for the modern warfare and security standards, but it keeps that seal of quality, precision and utility. 👍🏻 a great gun, very appreciated in it’s .38 Super caliber version here in México.

[@prunehead]

I know this isn't related this this video but I never knew Leeds royal armory in the UK (the city next to my home city) had a private section full of firearms for professional research. I only knew about the publicly accessable part. At least now I know where my very first stop during the zombie apocalypse should be.

[@bikecommuter24]

Nice always been a fan of the 45 auto. Even with all these modern and modular handguns we have today the 1911 is still for me one of the nicer handguns to fire. I owned a few Glocks over the years, and a Para Ordnance at one time but the single stack 1911 is it. I think I know where that stimulus check is going, to support a local small business, my local gun shop.

[@o8o8das]

Thank you for this. What an outstanding piece of American History, saddens me not enough people know about this. One thing to mention is how interchangeability, perfected with the 1911, set the US up to be the mass production capital of the world. It’s no coincidence the 1911 and Model Ts were developed around the same time. Saddens me we’ve traded mass production of excellent products for mass consumption of disposable nonsense...

[@josephd27]

That was a great history lesson

[@ElmerFuddGun]

I don't know, man. I don't see this working or being sold much... but I will watch to the end any ways since your videos are usually good. ;-P

[@stacybrown3714]

I can't explain why I never tire of that story. I hope whoever buys those pistols displays them in a way that is appropriate, so others will ask questions that lead them to that story. Thank you "Gun Jesus".

[@richardhunter9995]

If I had the money I would have a display of all the pistols from the 1900 to the 1911

[@stevepirie8130]

A work of art

[@154Kilroy]

This make me want the C&Arsenal episode to come out even more now...

[@troy9477]

Always a fascinating subject. I can't remember much about the Savage entry. Was it a scaled up verion of their M1907 .32 ACP? Was it blowback? I seem to recall the Savage 32 was one of the first to have the recoil spring around the barrel. Amazing what a difference the small change to the grip angle makes. It is a whole different gun. That earlier locking system was odd. Never seen that before. Thanks for the lessons. Great video as always. Thank you.

[@jessicasimp4459]

Congrats Gun Jesus for finding the beautiful 1910 because that's one of the 2 rarest variations of the 1911 [The other being the Singer 1911]. In the end, the story of the 1911 since 2014 is fulfilled :)

[@lv15ballistol]

Does anyone know how they did the 6000 shot tests? If they took 12h that would be 500 per h, a bit more than a magazine theoretically per minute.. Did they put brakes in between to clean and let the guns cool of?

[@matthewkriebel7342]

I’ve heard they dunked it in water every now and again to cool it, which considering the metallurgy, makes it even more impressive.

[@scotthancock9592]

LV 16 I read or heard somewhere they would dunk it in a bucket of water periodically to cool it, but you’re right, that’s a lot of ammo in twelve hours.

[@lv15ballistol]

Interesting, thanks for the answers

[@spanuehspanueh7216]

At least from the earliest manual, Memorandum No.1866, they basically brag about dumping three magazines in 12 seconds.

[@smtbigelow]

@The Prometheus ProjectLMFAO thats funny, I dont care who you are!

[@bcbloc02]

The acid test seems a bit bizarre. How often would a soldier come into contact with acid?

[@mrb692]

bcbloc02 Probably more of a simulated aging test than a “let’s see what happens when we dunk this in acid” test

[@Taistelukalkkuna]

*Vietnam* "Ahem..."

[@SinisterGerbils]

*Project* *MK* *Ultra* *wants* *to* *know* *your* *location*

[@stephenhensley7004]

Great history. Thanks.

[@irafowlerjr.7492]

this was wonderful, thanks

[@larrypesek8818]

Someone is going to own some nice pieces of history...

[@karlenhelder]

What was the incentive for putting the extractor inside? In the hipower he didn't retain that idea

[@badweetabix]

Probably to avoid patent infringement. Browning sold his 1911 patent to Colt, so when he designed the Hi-Power for FN, he had to avoid using anything from the 1911.

[@charles_wipman]

Nice history and better looking pistol.

[@leamas1210]

best storytime ever

[@riffraff9000]

1911. My favorite pistol of all time.

[@jonminer9891]

Very interesting. Thanks for putting this on your show. Good writing, photography or I guess videography and speaking clearly and logically. I really enjoy watching the Forgotten Weapons. I wish the process of picking military weapons today was as demanding today as it was back in the day. It seems like committees who know nothing about the science involved are demanding all in one and modular weapons that can't seem to be vest of class. It seems like there always has to be a compromise. I think that is why the A-10 ground support aircraft is so popular. It is being upgraded and is still outstanding in its class.

[@Predator42ID]

Contrary to what you may have heard the M-17 actually proved way superior in testing then the old M9. The Army does infact put new hardware through the ringer. Glock simply sued because they are Glock and everyone loves Glock. Such is their lack of ingenuity that the now infamous Glock 44 is being beaten by a cheaper and better .22 built by Taurus no less. The M-17 did need some fixing and today the M-17A1 is a very reliable and accurate pistol.

[@midimusicforever]

All these rigorous tests and the tough competition created a result that has lasted for over 100 years.

[@bf945]

I hope that someone has the bucks to buy all three pistols and allows them to be put on public display. What a slice of history.

[@Dftba_hitch]

I don't quite follow, when did the cavalry remove the demand for a loaded chamber indicator?

[@stevepirie8130]

Jack Westlin I think yesterday with the 1907 model he mentioned in the cavalry report they didn’t think it did it’s job and was useless, might be wrong.

[@Dftba_hitch]

@@stevepirie8130 cheers, I'll have to rewatch the previous video. To be clear I'm not arguing the rational of the feature I just noticed it missing.

[@stevepirie8130]

Until he mentioned it I’d never known what it was on our pistols 😎

[@frankbutta9344]

Great Video! Thank You For Sharing. 👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍

[@nicerperson1]

A very interesting video, thanks. This is absolute proof of evolution, you can see how natural selection and random mutations over time led to the beloved 1911. Wait! whats that - there was a designer? All hail John Browning!

[@system3870]

Really cool.

[@tomp538]

Nice history lesson.

[@vinces7001]

Nice One and Fascinating/Interesting! Cheers

[@slamminsalmon7698]

I love the 1911 good fun gun not huge magazine capacity but i still love it