A few nuanced thoughts on Hikite (still does not add power!)

www.iainabernethy.co.uk/ A few nuanced thoughts on Hikite! To be honest, the endless “debate” around whether it adds power or not to the other hand (it does not) is one that now thoroughly bores me. Hikite has genuine practical uses in close-range combat. The discounting of these practical purposes in favour of demonstrably false “power generation” arguments both saddens and frustrates me because it is bad for karate.
Those who get it, get it. Those who don’t, don’t want to (willingly trapped in pseudo-traditional “sensei says” dogma). However, there remains a few nuances around hikite that I feel it could be useful to highlight:
1) The idea that you pull the enemy onto the strike and hence “double” the impact (like a head-on crash) is widespread, but there are some problems with that idea. In the video, I explain why it does not work in practise.
2) The hikite often pulls far less than many suppose. The problem is that many measure how far the hand moves relative to themselves; whereas it is more useful to measure its actual movement in space. This is explained and demonstrated in the video.
3) As a last-ditch attempt to justify an empty hand being pulled to the hip in combat, some reinvent what hikite is and try to argue from there. In particular, they liken it to folding an inactive arm into a guard. Whist these are very different practises, even then it fails because - when punching correctly i.e. ensuring maximum active mass - the guard is NOT “pulled” backward in space. Again, this is explained and demonstrated in the video.
The video concludes with a brief recap of why the classic (but not traditional) idea of “hikite for power generation” fails, as well as looking at where this false notion comes from.
As I say in the video, I have zero interest in responding to the same old tired arguments around hikite allegedly being for power generation. If people are genuinely convinced it adds power to punches, then there should be no problem showing that in practise. Film and upload a video showing how hard you can hit with that method. Should be simple enough, right? Those who hold similar views to me can then see the amount of power it actually adds as opposed to engaging in endless “theoretical” debates. To date, not a single person has stepped up and shown the method in action when I have asked (which would seem to be very telling in itself). So, if you do try to argue hikite is for power generation in the comments, know in advance I am simply going to refer you to this text and post, “Show me: hit some impact equipment with the method and film it so we can see how much power it adds in practise. No more theorising. Practical demonstration please.” Surely, that’s the best way to convince me of my alleged folly :-)
All the best,
Iain

[@johndejac73]

The best place and or way I practiced a strong hikite was in judo. I learned how to grab, pull and disrupt my opponent’s balance while maintaining my own. I took judo for several years and I incorporated that training into my karate. It made a huge difference.

[@Kevins-Philippine-Retirement]

Excellent explanations. When I train my students on Hikite, I emphasize that it is only apparent "pulling back". We use it like in one of your examples such as when parrying. Also it helps to give a relative foundation to the " door hinge" side of the body when holding the opponent.

[@dobermanrage]

Pulling back on your opponent may not be useful to increase striking power. But if we’re calling your forearm a 2% bodyweight shift that might be enough to pull your opponent off balance. Striking an opponent that’s off balance is extremely beneficial to your control.

[@santosprb]

So you reduce the distance that you need to create power via acceleration in hope that he might get off balance? Sorry but Ian is right...

[@riddickriddick9520]

I started as a Shotokan stylist (long ago), but ended up understanding karate almost exactly the same as Iain does! I guess experience does that to a person.

[@aidanmurray8283]

I love your enthusiasm Iain! I could listen to you hon on about hikite forever. Another problem with the idea that the hikite is pulling back to pull the enemy in is that if you’re gripping clothing, there’s a chance that it will rip, and thus you’ve lost your datum.

[@KungFuTweety1]

I appreciate that you try, please continue!

[@CJ-uf6xl]

It confuses me, I'm a Kung Fu guy, and the "pulling hand" is all over the place, I've heard every explanation under the sun from different instructors, from "power generation" to "it just gets your arm out the way" and everything in between, the only thing I haven't heard is your explanation!! I'll remain on the fence for now 😉 And it's good to see Bob has gotten his drink problem sorted long enough to record this video! Well done Bob!!! Great stuff, thank you.

[@liamscott1905]

Grabbing someone’s wrist whilst punching them sounds good in theory but in a chaotic self defence where your attacker is thrashing and swinging his arms then it’s highly unlikely to catch someone’s wrist.

[@richardkollmar903]

An excellent analysis. Helpful Thank you!

[@jangiel3103]

From a hung-ga perspective it is important to pay attention to the fact that the hand coming back is palm down and turns over as it returns to the waist, ending palm up, ergo, there is a decided twisting action occurring there. If you were squared off with someone who is throwing a fairly straight left at you, you could step to your right at an angle to avoid being right in front of the punch while simultaneously bringing up your left arm, bent at the elbow to cover your head. The left arm is not blocking or really even deflecting - it is covering and brushing the punch. Now, you have contact with that arm and know by touch where it is. By brushing it, you've slowed it down and you can easily drop your left hand on it and seize it. Once firmly gripped, you can pull it down while turning it over and connecting it to your side as your right hand hits. Connected in to your side, you have better control over it and the twisting action has turned his elbow up. As soon as your right hand bounces back off his jaw, it can immediately smash down on his elbow. This could also be done to clear some sort of guard or attempted grab, etc.

[@areskiouzrout7265]

Very interesting and instructive. Thanks a lot for your job.

[@ruiseartalcorn]

Well said! Very good points! In addition, I think pulling the opponent works when they are advancing. For example: as they move forward to grab (with their right hand), you catch their arm with your right hand and pull back into a left side stance whilst performing a lead arm inner "block" to their arm. In this case, your pulling is adding to their already forward motion.

[@maxventura7015]

You know, Iain, it's weird and fun at the same time: one of the basic principles I learned in judo ages (geological ones) ago is to use the opponent moving against them, when they push you pull and reverse. Why is this so difficult to apply to the hikite topic? I am waiting for a chance to train with you...

[@landoftheninja]

You're 100% correct. The hombu instructor of my shotokan dojo trained with the Japanese while he was in the airforce in the 70's and this is how he always said to use hikite.

[@somebloke13]

What you on about? Hikite is to tell you where your own ribs are. Easy to lose track in a scrap! 😁

[@dermotrooney9584]

Lovely stuff. 👍

[@MartialAlexLe]

I am a Judoka first and a Karateka second and I think the Hikite is also used for off balancing Uke. At least in Judo the pulling Hand is also called hikite. You can use the off balancing/kuzushi to throw or in a Karatekas case to whack somebody really hard 😂

[@kenkongermany7860]

If you follow the punch back in with sticking circle blocks, Hikite is the best and farest "evasion" position. Especially the high Hikite of goju ryu etc. . In styles with standing kakie/sticking drills this may be an adding historical reason. Try it in sparring with gedan barai ( against high punches even) circeling up after the block with "follow through" to the outside and in. The block position is only a middle position. At least you often feel the ohter ones guard while punching in on the other side at almost the same time. Hence the frontal hip in goju ryu uke. Look for mawashi uke in Nijushiho or several goju/uechi/shito ryu kata. The pulling back ( in the middle of the uke) is maybe from sticking hand sparring and disguises the sticking block motion to the follow in. That's the strike/ end position in the kata... . Viewed this way, there are only two important block circles in karate.

[@YoukaiSlayer12]

Nice another one ☝🏾. Very straight forward in your explanation. I wonder how much of the issue is some just conflating it with hip rotation?

[@practicalkatabunkai]

The hip should rotate, but in the direction of the strike. We don’t want half the hip and mass moving the wrong way.

[@YoukaiSlayer12]

@@practicalkatabunkai Right. Now that I’m thinking about it, I believe in Nakayama’s Karate series books the diagrams showing hip rotation points to the hips & the techniques going in the direction that’s needed.

[@CourageToB]

@@practicalkatabunkai i have another thought on that. what if actually hip and shoulders dont rotate in the same direction, instead oppose each other and thus create a whipping effect? not sure if i m explaining that correctly - my thought would be to get from rotational to translational. that way hikite would add stability to the punch by reversing all movements of the punching arm - bit of a yin yang idea, if you like.

[@geoffmitchell3554]

Excellent Explanation and good practical demonstration of the theory in a very simple easy to understand manner as usual..🥋🥋🥋🥋🥋🥋🥋

[@amokbel]

I read from a book that hikite means “grappling hand” which might be more conceptually correct than “pulling hand”?

[@user-wq4nf4dk3s]

I believe I've figured out the scenario in which it would indeed add power. Or perhaps it would be better to describe it as "preventing the opponent from taking any of your power away". Fighters with good instincts tend to "roll with" attacks or follow the direction of the force in order to take some of that power out of the equation. By pulling them directly in-line with your attack, you can prevent them from riding with the strike. Not sure if it's "adding" power per se, but it certainly makes your delivery of power more sure to connect with full force.

[@asherspragmatickarate]

Hey Ian, love your videos you are awesome and couldn’t agree more. I do always have this issue when I take a step forward to transfer my body weight into the strike, my arms are just so long so they bend quite a bit. What I’m trying to say is when I take a step I get to close for my arms to fully extend into a punch. Haha

[@garysmylie975]

Great video.. I'm studying kyokushin .. but done boxing for years and I do find that pulling the hand back does add some power.. not to the hip... But there's extra power there.

[@spacecadet35]

I must admit, I usually use the hikite to redirect their attacks and to cause them to expose their neck and jawline. In a secondary use it makes sure that they cannot just ride out the punch. It doesn't add to the power as such, but it makes the other techniques more effective. And if it is not effective, why would we bother?

[@matthewbaumann630]

How do you use it to expose their neck?

[@spacecadet35]

@@matthewbaumann630 - When you pull their arm down, especially if you use a sudden jerk, their torso leans forward and to maintain vision they will tilt their head up. This is purely reflexive. This will usually expose their neck. It will often mean that they are off balance, which means that they lose power for a second or so. This combination of reflexes means that you have the opportunity to deliver a knock out blow.

[@geoffreynelson6413]

This was very helpful.

[@MarshOakDojoTimPruitt]

thanks Iain

[@facruas]

Awesome explanation. Is there a relation between the hikite from the karate to the hikite from judo? Maybe it would help to explain the myth of “doubling the damage by pulling”. Because we can pull someone efficiently in judo with hikite, but with the help of tsurite and for nage waza applications. Sorry for the bad english. It is not my native language.

[@stephena1196]

Your English is fine.

[@facruas]

@@stephena1196 Thanks! 😁👍

[@stephena1196]

@@facruas you're welcome 👍

[@laperrablanca1]

Great points, as usual, pure logics, common sense and a keen understanding of biomechanics. Same goes for lifting or non lifting your heel. Just try with a punching bag and see there no gain in power making hikite or keeping the heel on the ground

[@liamscott1905]

Most common boxing ko is a left hook from right handed fighters.

[@amk8411]

Could you recommend a Karate club in London, please? Most places I've found seem to be kids classes.

[@andrewmthomson0191]

Retracting one side of the body will send the other side of the body forward. We see this at 4:04 when pulling the left hand back causes the right hand side to travel forward. What we are interested in is total out put of the system not the optimisation of any one part of the system (as you could optimise one part to the detriment of the total out put if it negatively impacted the rest of the system) So it does not matter if the pull back equals the forward motion, rather it matters if it adds additional power to the system as a whole. If you are on a train travelling at 100 miles an hour and you run from the front of the train to the back of the train, you have still travelled further down the tracks. Your relative position on the train has changed but your still going forward. In the same way one hip may be moving backwards relative to the other but both could still be moving forwards. So well it may not pulling the other person in space but it can be propelling the other side of your body forward for increased striking power. It depends on sequence as pulling at the same time would not increase power but doing one side and then the other would. As a you would have a central pivot point and one force would work against the other when done together. But when done one after the other you can have a side pivot point and create a force on one side which is then passed on to the other side of the body to use. Even if this transfer is inefficient it is still additive to total system output. We see this in am extreme way in the double hip strike or say dontay wilders right hand cross. In each of these there is in effect three trivectors stacked on top of each other to increase striking power. A wind up forward on the non striking side (hip, core, shoulder) to the 90 degree position, then a full retraction of the non striking side (hip, core, shoulder) before the striking side fires (hip, core, shoulder). The wind up is done to allow a massive retraction that allows energy to be generated for a very hard shot. This is a retraction of the full side of the body not just an arm. So retracting the opposite side to the striking arm can enhance power. (if done correctly in sequence) Personally I see the hikite as a way of practicing this providing it is done in sequence (admittedly not how you typically see it done). A way of drilling movement rather than as direct application. In the same way pulling the hand back to the side, and turning my arm over using the shoulder rotation lets me practice maximum retraction and extension of the shoulder in basics - but I wouldn’t suggest bringing my hand back to the side in a fight.

[@practicalkatabunkai]

I don’t think you understand the double hip. The whole point is that the mass goes in the direction of the strike. The lead side does not go “back”, the other side rotates around it (as also explained in the video). We need to measure how things move thorough space: not relative to the body. If the “back hip” ends up in front, it does not mean the other side has gone back. It just means that side has gone forward more. On the double hip, both sides of the hip go forward. The lead hip them becomes the pivot after it has moved forward. That’s why it’s called the double hip.

[@andrewmthomson0191]

@@practicalkatabunkai Yeah that was my point about running on the train. The hip can go back relative to the other hip but still be travelling forward in space.

[@practicalkatabunkai]

@@andrewmthomson0191 I don’t think that really works for the double hip though. A person running against the direction of the train is moving backward relative to the train. On the double hip nothing is going back; just forward at different rates and at different points. It’s a key part of the method that nothing goes back. Lead side of the hip goes forward quicker than the rear side of the hip (but the rear side is not going back); the lead hip fixes and the rear side of the hip rotates around it. There isn’t the “person running against the train” in the double hip. The rear hip is not pulled back, nor has it moved backward in space, it’s just not moved as far forward as the other side in the first part of the movement. When learning the method, some do incorrectly pull the hip back. They shouldn’t. The whole point is to get maximum mass accelerating in the direction of the shot. Therefore, nothing goes away from the target.

[@andrewmthomson0191]

@@practicalkatabunkai Nothings going back on the train either - it just seems that way. The direction of force creation and the movement of the body don't need to be the same thing. If you have a force back (from the pull of the muscles) but don't allow it to express as a backward movement the force has to be go somewhere - in this case to the out the other side of the body. A medieval sling shot rotates in the wrong direction most of the time but it builds momentum to be released. If the person with the sling allowed the energy to escape out the back there would be no momentum. To be clear fundamentally I agree with you - I am not a big fan of the hikite combatively and it doesn't work the way most people think, I just see it as a practice method for building momentum and redirecting force (which can only happen if you don't let the side go back wards).

[@practicalkatabunkai]

@@andrewmthomson0191 Relative to the train, the person is definitely going backward. It’s therefore a bad analogy for the double hip because nothing goes backward. If you had said the person on the train is still as the train starts to move, and then sprints forward, it would have been better. It’s still not right through because the train would not be contributing to the person’s acceleration relative to the train (the are just running).

[@Spirittkdaus]

Love it. Agree 100%

[@russellwilliams5065]

As a TKD practitioner I too was was steeped in the ways of hikite = power. I have been slowly trying to correct that in my own students, but I does the hikite translate into blocks ie a rising block or an outer forearm block?

[@practicalkatabunkai]

Thanks for the support and the comment! All motions need to be looked at withing the context of the kata, but this basic drill may help: kzbin.info/www/bejne/p52koqJorammjbM The key things is that whenever the hand is on the hip, it has an active role (and “power generation” isn’t a valid one). I hope the linked video helps.

[@russellwilliams5065]

@@practicalkatabunkai Thank you for the resource! It makes a lot of sense and at the same time foreign. It will be fun trying these things with my students to see what we learn. My style of TKD has a direct link to Shotokan and I have been spending the last few years really trying to rethink how I understand the basic techniques as well as poomse/kata. I had been previously disappointed by some of the masters that I have known for decades giving me very paper-thin answers about why we do techniques a specific way. And after over 20 years of practice, I finally decided to look for answers outside of my “bubble”. It was probably one of the best martial arts decisions I have ever made. Most of the TKD application stuff still felt a little forced. Much of it was very modern TKD and seemed like it was trying to paint over the fact that knowledge was lost. I eventually came across your content, and it was exactly what I was looking for. It made many of the TKD poomses I practice make more sense than the explanations I was given years ago. Learning more about other styles has given me more of an appreciation for traditional TKD as well as the shared bond with Karate. Thank you so much for doing what you do!

[@Eliphas_Leary]

On a kinda related note: what's your stance on standing deep, Iain?

[@practicalkatabunkai]

If you need stability, it’s a good idea. If you need mobility, then it’s not. More on stances here: iainabernethy.co.uk/article/my-stance-stances

[@davidhare6982]

Hi Iain, do you not train basics with hikite, or katas that obviously have basic hikite in them. If you do is this not a waste of time in your opinion?

[@practicalkatabunkai]

I do, because they are solo representations of the hand being used in the ways discussed in the video (i.e. the hand is gripping something). We NEVER pull an empty hand to the hip in partner work, nor do we do it in solo training where the hand would not be active if there were a partner there.

[@MaurizioPappolla]

Hi, I totally agree with you. The hikite is misunderstood a lot. I Guess the other reason to use the hikite could be that after the block you want to deliver a straight blow to solar plexus or an uppercut one to torso or chin (with the principle that the previuos move just prepare the next one). All the best

[@MrMeltdown]

Been doing TKD for a few years, and the hikite in the "blocks" seems completely wasted until you assume that the hikite hand is actually doing the parry and the block is striking some other part of the attackers body. I've been experimenting with moving to the inside and outside of the attackers arm with it. I noticed that boxers immediately snap the punching hand back whilst punching with the second hand ready for a third strike but also to protect the head. if you are able to disrupt the attackers flow with a parry/grab and throw your body into a strike with the blocking hand things seem to make a damn sight more sense. eg. a low block hikite hand is parrying a hand and then also delivering a hammer fist down the attackers out stretched arm towards the head with the "blocking" hand vs protecting against a kick from a long range with the blocking hand attempting to stop the kick and the hikite doing next to nothing (apart from not being in any guarding position at all).

[@clarkeyclarkey-vc5we]

Brilliant👍👍👍🥋

[@jaldare]

Like you said, if people don't get by now, they don’t want to

[@KaptainCanuck]

Clarification: The modern Japanese karate styles, as in the 1950s or newer, are close range. At the same time, the Okinawan styles (the original Shotokan is also Okinawan) were medium-range styles.

[@practicalkatabunkai]

I’m going to need sources for such a strong claim. The texts show the opposite.

[@KaptainCanuck]

@@practicalkatabunkai , maybe my memory is getting them reversed. It happensto those over 49!!

[@practicalkatabunkai]

@@KaptainCanuck 50 years old here. I know where you’re coming from :-)

[@rpesik]

Oss, Iain Abernethy sensei. In my opinion hikite is just our body natural movement. We are used to walk and run that way. No matter how much one practice to keep their hands up while hitting, the truth is even the best boxers, best mma fighters, when delivering the killling move they always do the hikite. Look at ko highlights. Almost all last punces are always using hikite. No more "hands up" to defend In a fighting competition, be it boxing or mma or kick noxing or muay Thai, fighters keep their hands up during the early phase especially probing enemy phase. When both fighter trying to close the distance they need to be cautious. As the figth nearing to end by the way of knock out, that "hands up" position begins to fade until non existance. Now in self defense especially karate, we want to finish the fight immediately. No need to close the distance while protecting. Self defense situation starts from close range. So we attack directly using killing blow right from the start/first punch. That is why we are not taught to fight with hands up in kata. What do you think?

[@practicalkatabunkai]

As in the video, the snap shot of the end position will show one side further forward than the other, but that does not mean the other side has gone “back”, just that the other side has gone forward more. Boxers do “open up” when they are seeking a finish, but there’s nothing happening that is comparable to the idea of pulling one side away from the target; quite the opposite.

[@CourageToB]

@@practicalkatabunkai if you think rotational instead of translational (or better said both in sequence) the hikite in the rotational part would actually add mass to the punch, given that the torso is stabilized

[@mauriceshapero7200]

With jun zuki I was always taught to step then punch. Bu I notice that when showing your bunkai you strike AS you step. Also in this video, if your pulling back hand remains stationary when you step the hand must be moving back relative to the body that's moving forward - at the same time. This makes sense to me as there's no time, in a real situation, to step then punch. having started Wado again recently they now teach to punch while your centre is still moving forward. But say it's wrong to start the punch too soon. I wondered how you teach basic jun zuki - do you start the punch as soon as you step? I guess you need to get some momentum going before you start the punch? And probably, as you show in this video, your retracting hand can stay where it is relative to your opponent (pulling back straight away relative to you), but the punch starts a bit later once you've got momentum going. So in effect you have separated the retracting hand timing and speed from the punching hand. And yet we are always taught to punch and retract simultaneously! I know you often make the point that the retracting hand does nothing for the power of the punching arm. Just thinking out loud, but it does beg the question - why does most karate training put simultaneous arm movement into muscle memory? When really you want them to act separately with different speed and timing in real applications.

[@practicalkatabunkai]

I can’t speak to how everyone trains kihon, but we will vary the nature (and position) of the hikite depending upon what is being replicated in solo training. Using it as a “locate and snatch” would be more like you describe. It therefore could be that is what is being envisioned in basic training, or it is also possible they are not thinking about application at all and therefore have picked an arbitrary way of doing it.

[@mauriceshapero7200]

@@practicalkatabunkai yes.... I think I'm confusing the purpose of kihon with kata - in the sense that kata has many instances of the hands moving separately at different speeds and timings. It sounds like your kihon is less rigid - I'm doing very traditional Wado so there's an emphasis on everyone doing it the same way. I don't have a problem with that as it kind of fixes / focusses my mind. I can always add my own creativity to it. Which left unchecked can make for chaos! Maybe it's an age thing, but I'm finding a lot of value in training fixed, repetitive movements - in a funny way it's allowing me to be freer with my own development.

[@practicalkatabunkai]

@@mauriceshapero7200 I have no problem with a given version being the “datum” drilled in kihon either. Whatever example people pick as the default version will need varied as the circumstances change. It’s the partner work that will primarily teach that. As Otsuka himself said, “It is important to train the formal kata, but one must not get stuck within them … we must withdraw from the kata to produce countless other forms of training or else it becomes useless.”

[@mauriceshapero7200]

@@practicalkatabunkai Thank you Iain....this answers questions I've been grappling with for years.

[@3Pillers]

👍 excellent

[@davidhare6982]

Please watch a javelin thrower propelling their arm forward to throw the javelin, their passive hand is forced backwards to help propel their throwing arm. I have not seen one yet that does not pull it back?Thoughts?

[@practicalkatabunkai]

As per the video, the non-throwing hand is not going back in space on a javelin throw. It is going forward, it’s just that the throwing side goes forward more. No backward movement in space: kzbin.info/www/bejne/pIbIanujaLmEo9U

[@CourageToB]

@@practicalkatabunkai i actually think you can see very well in vetters video how rotation and translation come together. his "hikite" initiates the massive stretch of the opposite chest, then the end of his hikite allows for very hard contraction of the hikite-side muscles that stabilize and ground him so he can pivot around that side. same time the hikite adds to the transition from hip extension to hip flexion and from back extension to flexion. what do you think about this idea?

[@vonclap]

All this comes from Japanese universities attempt to make karate dynamic, even seen a document by a famous (japanese) teacher quoting Newton's third law of motion to prove and justify how hikite works (incorrectly) look at Okinawan karate for how both hands are used

[@liamscott1905]

That’s the problem with talking pure physics when they should be talking about body mechanics. I believe the misunderstanding of “chi” came from karate as well. I’m skeptical of hikite being wrist grabbing EVERYTIME, it’s highly unlikely you can grab a wrist in a chaotic self defence scenario where your attackers arms are swinging and thrashing.

[@mattt1974UK]

It's a strike back behind with the elbow just in case someone has jumped on your back 🤣

[@inoma1423]

The point about acceleration is misunderstood here - and often misunderstood in martial arts. It is in fact the speed of the impact (and the mass) that are important and not the acceleration. This is obvious if we think about a car accident. If we have a car travelling at a constant 100 mph (i.e. no acceleration) vs a car travelling a 1 mph that is accelerating. It is clear that the car travelling at 100mph will do considerably more damage than a car travelling at 1mph - despite the fact that there is zero accerleration of the car travelling at 100mph at the time of the collision. The important point is that the person hit by the 100mph car will certainly accelerate very quickly, and it is this acceleration we use to calculate the force transferred to the person (and we would also use the mass of the person here as their whole body would be put into motion by the car). So in summary do not try and maximise accelration at the time of impact (unless you are trying to push someone), instead maximise mass and velocity. This is easily testable on a punch bag. Compare swinging your arm with a high speed but no acceleration (high velocity low acceleration) vs only accelerating your arm from very close to the bag (high acceleration and low speed). I think you will find that the bag moves away more quicly (i.e. accelerates faster) from the high speed impact than the low speed impact with greater acceleration.

[@practicalkatabunkai]

I was certainly unclear with my words, and it seems that has caused confusion. The point I was making is that the active mass needs to accelerate as much as possible in order to impact at the highest possible velocity. The distance is set by the situation, so the rate of acceleration needs to be as high as possible to get the maximum velocity on impact. It’s also of vital importance to consider the active mass that is accelerating, which is why I feel pulling one side away from the punch will see a dramatic reduction in impact.

[@inoma1423]

@@practicalkatabunkai Thank you for the clear explanation. I was probably projecting previous experiences a bit, where people have encouraged me to try and maximise acceleration at the point of impact rather than velocity - quoting f=ma (a little knowledge can be dangerous!). I mistakenly thought you were saying the same thing I have heard before, my apologies. Re the actual topic. I wonder if the reason for the pulling hand could be to train proprioception, rather than having a direct practical fighting application. I.e., to encourage beginners to be more aware of the position and movement of the whole (upper) body and both limbs. By moving the opposite hand in a contradictory and coordinated manner may train some body awareness.Thus, in the long run, may allow practitioners to add more power to their strikes. As they will be able to engage more active mass when striking due to improved proprioception. This is probably a (very) generous interpretation - but a lot of people are quite unaware of what their limbs (and mass) are doing when they start out.

[@spacecadet35]

Hiki-te adds power by the simple fact that if you are pulling them in towards yourself, they cannot ride the punch out. They wear the full force of the punch.

[@blockmasterscott]

I teach it to beginners to get a basic foundation in muscle memory to keep their arms from flailing.

[@cahallo5964]

what do you think about the Uechi-ryu version of the hiki-te

[@practicalkatabunkai]

You can do that with a guard though?

[@mark11145]

Absolutely great video!! You and I agree on 99% of hikite but I would love to discuss power generation through hikite with you in person. Unfortunately I am in the states. So for discussion I would point out, If hikite does not add power; why does every throwing action in the world use the pull of the opposite arm. Go watch baseball, shotput, javelin etc…. All throwing forms use the opposite arm pulling to help generate power. Why? I believe as you stated it adds a small amount if weight. Also as you point out that is almost negligible. But I also think it improves rotational acceleration of the rest of your body weight making a big difference and taps into the bodies fascial trains. My thought for a true scientific test of this, would be to measure with a striking force pad: A punch with full hikite and a punch with your arm strapped to the side of the body or chest. Strapping it down would lock it in place effectively negating any possibility of arm motion (shoulder and elbow) so it can’t be used. I would love to get into a human performance lab to run that test. P. S. I think another purpose of the empty Hhkite hand is it sets up the power second strike in a combination. Can’t recall if you mentioned that one or not.

[@mark11145]

@grmair Personally I don’t care if anyone agrees with me or not. I am not here to argue or to prove a point. I know its a controversial subject and am simply offering other data to consider. I also run a physical therapy clinic and the biomechanics just have not been fully considered. Laugh if you like but, what I am proposing would be a scientific study that would answer the question. I also feel that the way all human throwing techniques utilize pulling the opposite arm needs to be considered. There are obviously biomechanical reasons for creating power in the body using this hikite or pulling motion.

[@practicalkatabunkai]

As per the video, we need to measure the movement through space; not relative to the body. On throwing (say a baseball pitch) both the front side and rear side of the body move forward (lead side, then the rear side). If you photograph the end position, then we can see the rear side is further forward, but that does not mean the lead side has gone “back”. Those who espouse “power through hikite” state the pulling the front side back drives the other side forward (like a seesaw), but that’s flat out wrong.

[@mark11145]

@@practicalkatabunkai Thanks for taking the time to answer Iain. I understand your viewpoint perfectly. It is based on momentum and the transfer of mass. I totally get it and agree with the mechanics of it. Moving both sides of the body (both masses) in line with the force vector ads significant mass and momentum to the strike. moving one side back and the other forward does not on the basis of force vectors, add mass or energy to the punch if the sides are rotating around a center held in place. Totally agree. However in biomechanics there are things called energy trains and fascial trains. These do not work on the simplified concepts of momentum traveling along the primary force vector. My experience and what I am trying to say is that the hikite or pulling one side of our body back while driving the other side forward taps into the fascial trains in the body. Facial trains can create and transfer energy in the body separate from the momentum of moving mass. I feel like in person I could logically discuss and demonstrate this. I know what I have written is not enough to open your mind to it after all these years of bitter arguments with idiots who don’t understand what they are doing. If your interested, look up biomechanic energy trains to see how kinetic energy is transferred across joints in the body and more importantly fascial trains which is whole other way to transfer kinetic energy from one location in the body to another distant point. cheers

[@practicalkatabunkai]

@@mark11145 In my experience, we can still get very efficient motions - which match our body’s physiology and maximise potential power - without needing to pull mass away from a shot. It’s a very similar kinetic chain to what we see in throwing. As I tell my lot all the time, I don’t think the fact we use the term “throw punches” is purely coincidental. We intuitively know that’s the action that should be in play. Human beings do two things better than any other creature on this planet: think and throw. Our physiology is set up for throwing (low shoulders, direction of muscle fibres, etc) when you compare us to other primates. So we should use that, and in doing so we can still stick with good physics by ensuring maximum active mass in the direction of the strike. I feel these things are very easy to test. People can hit pads and see what generates most power. Pulling mass away is going to reduce power because of physics. Inefficient motion with reduce active mass and acceleration and therefore reduce power because of biology and kinesiology. I don’t think there is a conflict here. It’s possible to hit very hard without needing to chose which scientific discipline to ignore.

[@briansheeran4185]

If the pulling hand isn't really moving in space like we think and only relative to ourselves (and that does make sense), why do almost all Karate-Ka train by....... pulling it back in space?

[@practicalkatabunkai]

I’m not saying we never pull, just that the pull is not as great as people think because we most often moving forward at the same time. I hope that helps clarify.

[@briansheeran4185]

@@practicalkatabunkai - Thank you. What I'm referring to is seen in basic demos of technique against the air. Like the Shuto strike to the neck. In your video the non striking hand moved..... but not in relation to your body, as that also moved. And I agree with the efficiency of that. But in solo training against the air, that's never really seen. The non striking hand does move in relation to the body. Why is training like that? It's hard to explain. Thanks for your time. In general I find myself agreeing with what you say, yet feel you are improving Karate, rather than actually interpreting it.

[@practicalkatabunkai]

@@briansheeran4185 I can’t comment on how every karateka drills things or why. I can say we step forward as “pulling” such that the hand doesn’t move that much in space. Others may do it differently.

[@bashlivingstonstampededojo882]

Why not just practice hikite with the hands up I don't believe in chamber in the hand at the hip that develops bad habits don't get me wrong I'm not against hikite nothing wrong with grabbing and pulling somebody into a punch or an elbow or clearing limbs but do it with your hands up to this day I never understood chambering to hand at the hip still a great video though and a great explanation

[@practicalkatabunkai]

It’s simply because that’s how a grip looks when done solo.

[@TheLockon00]

Yeah, pulling back works specifically on hooks, where the body is indeed rotating circularly in order to hit from the side. Straight punches that travel relatively straight from you towards the opponent should focus on bring weight forward, not pulling back.

[@practicalkatabunkai]

I’d disagree there. We still rotate from the side so no mass in moving away from the strike.

[@CourageToB]

what if you think of adding the rotaion of the torso to the directed forward motion of the legs?

[@johnscotland3124]

Interesting points to be sure, but you still haven't understood the true meaning of hikite...it is the protection of your piece of cheesecake! ALWAYS, and I mean always pull your cheesecake out of reach of the enemy.

[@grfrank7223]

#freebob :D awesome!

[@alanwood9822]

Talking sense, straight from the hip, if you will pardon the expression. 👍😊

[@LateKnight347]

pulling someone into a punch works. you're not seriously arguing against that are you?

[@practicalkatabunkai]

Gripping to locate and off balance definitely works (as discussed in the video). What I am arguing against is that it is possible to pull someone forward with so much force that it increases the power of the strike to such a degree that the lost distance / room to accelerate is compensated for.

[@LateKnight347]

@@practicalkatabunkai I'd say it works because it keep them from rolling with the punch. but yeah it's not going to be as effective as a full power punch.

[@mhutters]

Stop making Bob look like a thug in his hoodie, #hugahoodie

[@davidprice9520]

Agreed let’s see him in a Gi 🙂👍

[@practicalkatabunkai]

@@davidprice9520 He’s not worthy of a gi! :-)

[@larrywadford263]

I would agree with what you say about the hikite, that it isn't for power generation. But your examples are strawman too. The reality is, hikite is preparatory in nature for teaching people when you flow you need to move your hand to the next starting point. Kata is one thing, combat is another. Not sure where this holy war about hikite comes from unless they only fight in kata format which may happen and if that is the case stop going to that school.

[@practicalkatabunkai]

A straw man is misrepresenting the other side’s position. I’m not doing that. People legitimately believe pulling one side back sends the other side forward and that creates a more powerful strike (see Nakayama’s book and even the comments on my other videos on this topic). Using hikite to grip and clear limbs is in the older texts and is functional.

[@thecapedgremlin0001]

Ah-duh-its a retreat technigue so your opponant does not grab it...what does add power is forearm rotation and muscle contraction also combined explanations to make sure your hand is fisted...! All this is beginner-stufff...lol

[@practicalkatabunkai]

You feel pulling your hand away from the target before punching (and hence slowing the rate of fire) and leaving yourself wide open, just in case the enemy grabs, is a good idea?

[@thecapedgremlin0001]

@@practicalkatabunkai I never said that...some folks do not get tought a fighting mothed to withdraw the hand after contact or bluffing, as I said you can strength from forearm rotation with contraction and relaxtion if tought properly will increase your speed. Being teaching a fighting-mothed without proper foot-work if obvious even watching you I can see Kososhi when moving forward, remember footwork, distance and peripheral vision can be used to exhaust your opponant not just, power, retreat and bluffing!

[@practicalkatabunkai]

@@thecapedgremlin0001 "Ah-duh-its a retreat technigue so your opponant does not grab it."?

[@thecapedgremlin0001]

@@practicalkatabunkai Yeah-its called bluffing to pull your opponant towards you...is what I meant...yeah I should've explained that better...thats what happens folks when ya not trasined for 2 years, but will again soon...(as it has more than one meaning if you want to be more literal specific?} Awhile your explanantion had a lack of information! But you will see and hear what you want alike everyone else, who insecurily compete with themselves!?

[@practicalkatabunkai]

@@thecapedgremlin0001 Can’t say I understand what you are saying. Probably just me, and I nevertheless thank you for the post. All the best, Iain

[@Per12189]

Karate has its origins in China, where -no surprise- you find the hikite movement also, as other aesthetic movements that have no practical uses. Perhaps it's just some artistic detail that has no other meaning than that. At the end of the day we are talking about martial ARTS.

[@stephena1196]

My understanding is it does have practical use in Chinese styles (the one I practised anyway). It's jerking the opponent's hand downwards and one is told to think of your elbow moving towards your hip as you strike with the other hand. The movement is often exaggerated in forms, so the movement of the elbow towards the hip is continued till the fist is at the hip. Pretty much exactly like Iain describes hikite.

[@TheLockon00]

It's a BJJ collar-drag and nothing else. Prove me wrong!

[@CourageToB]

hammer nail problem.

[@cahallo5964]

You are thinking in a very straight forward way when talking about power, you are completely ignoring shock, and also just holding is not enough to imbalance. 4:47 also, you are very disingineous about that one, you describe the scenario as impossible and then you use that impossible scenario as an example of it not working 7:29 also here, you are showing a really good example a situation when pulling as hard as possible into the strike would be beneficial. Really weird that you "don't buy" what you yourself are doing.

[@practicalkatabunkai]

I think you may need to rewatch. Gripping to locate, snatching to disrupt, etc are fine. However, pulling them onto the strike to cause a “head on collision” is not the same.

[@Sowie-sm6xk]

Is it used to teach begineers to produce power when punching

[@practicalkatabunkai]

It does not add power though. As per the last paragraph above: Show me. Hit some impact equipment with the method and film it so we can see how much power it adds in practise. Practical demonstration please.