A gift to GAME DEVS depicting medieval combat

In this video I have a special present for any game developer who would like their medieval inspired combat to look more realistic and immersive.
#medievalcombatreference
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[@NGfour]

Awesome initiative! I'm working in both the indie game and film industry and always wanted more realism in the combat. I'd do the moves myself, but I'm very much a novice at HEMA. This clear reference footage is much more valuable than you might think. A community project like this could cut costs and time by the truckloads! Huge thanks to you and anyone joining in! Lots of love from developers and filmmakers! ♥⚔ #medievalcombatreference

[@aradicaldude]

Here ya go: kzbin.info/www/bejne/eaDFZH2DotmWqrs

[@NGfour]

@@aradicaldude Thanks! I've known about Fior di Battaglia for a while already. Trying to practice some of its guards and a few moves. But those are exactly the kind of things that can inspire us. They are more suitable for film and harder to attach to player controls due to the complexity, but that doesn't mean we won't try. Still a good resource though!

[@flyingfox09]

You can get fairly inexpensive mocap gear now days. You could easily shoot a bunch of animations and sell them or release for free on unreal and unity marketplaces. I work as a Technical Animator at a AAA studio so if you are interested or have questions fell free to contact me.

[@NGfour]

@@flyingfox09 Would there be a way to facilitate this as a community and let the practiced martial artists record this? For me personally, the issue would lie in performing the motions well or finding people who can, as opposed to getting the equipment.

[@flyingfox09]

@@NGfour you would need the mocap gear then find willing people and probably visit them to get the shots. Or just get Shad to do it since he seems keen and proficient in different weapons lol. It also helps that the actors understand the game side of things since some moves just will not work or read well.

[@ModernKnight]

One day I'll make a medieval-themed game, and get you involved, but for now I've got Sniper Elite to finish! Just edited this to say this is a great idea and just what animators and game designers could actually use as references.

[@estaticethan1752]

Wow. I can't believe there's still others playing that game. Might want to go back into it soon.

[@marion_roberts]

OMG YES!

[@ThatOtherGamer]

Please do, Sir Knight.😁 That would be a day 1 purchase for me.

[@Fish_Head]

@@estaticethan1752 Fun fact: Modern History TV is the CEO of Rebellion Developments. When he say's he's gonna finish Sniper Elite, he means making it, not playing it!

[@coda8219]

Oh hell yeah

[@mygetawayart]

here are the chapter times #medievalcombatreference 9:12 Daggers and Rapiers 14:33 Short Swords 17:02 Arming Swords 21:27 Sword + Shield 23:12 Dual Wield (Arming Swords) 25:29 Longsword 28:37 Bastard Sword, Warsword and Greatsword 31:53 Axe 32:36 Two-Handed Axe 35:24 Pole Arms (Halberd and such) 36:24 Spear 37:07 Warbow

[@libertyprime6932]

Nice work :)

[@huzaifahahmed4303]

Thank you

[@mediocremason]

No maces?

[@Chronuz]

Thanks man.

[@Spacemongerr]

@@mediocremason No maces.

[@lordbaconbane6145]

I'm a AAA developer, the company I work for has worked on some popular medieval titles... and yes I'm sharing this with them!

[@friendhaus1858]

tell ubi to make champ status cheaper in for honor

[@philipearakaki]

@@neglectfulsausage7689 OH NO WOMEN IN VIDEOGAMES WHAT EVER WILL WE DO??

[@theArab__]

@@neglectfulsausage7689 touch grace

[@neglectfulsausage7689]

@@theArab__ she your daughter>?

[@theArab__]

@@neglectfulsausage7689 Good one lol, I take it back just for that

[@carlosvega4795]

Dear God, this came precisely when I needed it... I NEED "untrained" poses and attack animations, "Intermediate" ones, and "Master" ones so the characters use them in blendtrees depending on their skills (The player won't notice they're improving because the changes would be slight as their experience is gained, one day they will just say "Hey, I didn't notice my dude got so good with the sword after all this time, no longer he does weird wide attacks and one-two strikes, dude is overwhelming the oponents with combos leaving not much defense gaps in his stance"), just like seeing someone progressively becoming better at something, and not just because a stat number says he's better. I will employ even the bad moves Shad says shouldn't be used, because that's precisely what I need for low level characters who are just learning to use the weapons. Thanks Shad, God bless!

[@FairyRat]

That's a great idea, you may reference the game Gothic for such an implementation - there your animations and combo possibilities change completely as you raise your combat skills to discreet mastery levels. I always loved this detail, it's takes way more effort to make and is way more satisfying for player than simple numbers creep. I believe Kingdom Come does the same, but it's harder to notice due to first-person view and a more gradual leveling.

[@RollerBaller]

Something similar can be found in Kenshi where charters make different attacks based on skill.

[@blackdeath4eternity]

now im curious what game your working on ... i need to know if its one i would play & what to keep a eye out for. :P

[@ColonelBragg]

I think the difference between intermediate and master would be how stiff and tense the intermediate was vs how relaxed and fluid the master was. It would be kinda of subtle and hard to do tbh.

[@scelonferdi]

It's certainly better than just straight up damge modifiers, as this here will be actually felt by the player, especially when the timings (and thus opportunities) just get better.

[@PrismaticaDev]

Very excited to share this with the rest of my team - I'm a big HEMA nerd and I'm doing Motion Capture for all of our medieval-inspired combat and it will be nice to have everyone on the same page haha

[@BestKCL]

ES6 Hammerfell martial culture done justice question mark?

[@PrismaticaDev]

@Noob7Zilla There is definitely a distinction between "readable" telegraphing and "exaggerated" telegraphing, which is something I'll be experimenting with. I think breaking some HEMA rules (like leading with footwork rather than the weapon) can be quite readable. Luckily I don't have to deal with PvP and network delay/rollback issues though - I imagine having to account for 100+ milliseconds delay at minimum is a big reason that attacks usually have so much windup in PvP games.

[@draxrdax7321]

I've noticed Shad used some clips from Hellish Quart and i wonder if he ever played or commented on that game. Would be interested in his opinion on this game, and how accurate the combat is compared to medieval combat.

[@wilfchapman-gandy8120]

@Noob7Zilla That's so not weak, if you're expected to respond to an attack, you need to be able to read it.

[@SirCrusher]

@@PrismaticaDev fighting games like Tekken have that kind of distinction. Unreadable attacks (faster than 20 frames in a 60 frame per second setting) generally have very low risk and reward while slower attacks have higher reward and higher risks. That's how they balance these attacks there.

[@NegativeLegend]

A lot of the reason the shield is moved out of the way isn't because of fighting inaccuracy but so that it leaves the player open for attack so that they can't cheese the enemy as much.

[@elu9780]

I can just imagine someone fighting an enemy who has a shield and they cry "Stop using your shield for protection! It's such a noob thing to do, bro!" I wish fighting against opponents who have shields in games involved more than waiting for them to attack in a stupid way people with shields don't attack.

[@SkippertheBart]

Sounds like a balance needs to be struck with shield use. You can attack while guarding, but a shield doesn't work like a forcefield. That would be a complicated task, though.

[@Riwillion]

@@SkippertheBart It definitely is difficult, but Mordhau for example I believe kinda nailed it and if I recall correctly, you can hit someone actively blocking with a shield if you hit them in the head or the legs. For a souls-like game, not sure how it could be balanced though.

[@lawrencevalero8111]

@@SkippertheBart How about damage reduction or limited usages. Like wooden shield can get destroyed easily but can block all attacks but can hack through it little by little until it's gone

[@stiofarnog]

They don't seem to mind it with riot shield troops in fighting and shooting games though. Where's my equal treatment?

[@LPTheGas]

31:02 - the problem is they gave all the greatswords the same moveset as the one that's specifically intended to reference Berserk. For that specific one it works beautifully, really feels like you're playing Guts. But yeah, it looks pretty goofy applied to the swords that aren't "too big to be called a sword. Massive, thick, heavy, and far too rough. Indeed, it was a heap of raw iron."

[@undary0u]

Guts doesn't use his great sword that clumsily infact his much much more professional with his greatsword his literally a talented swordsmen

[@QberryShortcake]

I think it also has to do with balance. Weapon damage has to be balanced with risk/reward, swing radius, and attack speed. With so much of Elden Ring tied to animation, making it too fast or light could easily over or underpower the weapon

[@svensorensen7693]

At first I thought "This is such a Shad thing to do" Then I thought "This is actually a really *fantastic* idea!" I hope this turns into a thing and we end up with a "repository" of historical move-sets that developers and animators can use (even just as inspiration!)

[@joss4074]

I'm a video game animator, and I cannot emphasize enough how happy I am about this. My colleagues and I can spend many days scouring the internet for reference from movies, HEMA events, or from channels like yours. It is particularly difficult when we have to do key animation, as opposed to MoCap. I should mention that animating attack animations is a very complicated process, that usually has very specific prerequisites. I'm itching to make a video breaking down how it works from an animator's perspective, to help you guys see exactly what it is we animators need to look out for, as it is far too complicated to breakdown in a KZbin comment. Will be making sure to share this with as many people in the industry as possible. Looking forward to see what the other channels are able to produce! Thanks Shad and co 🙌

[@flyinggecko6617]

Id love to see that video considering that i'm looking to become an animator so the tips would be really apreciated

[@UnreasonableOpinions]

That would be very useful. Actually, it would also be great to get the information out to players as well, since audiences outside of fighting games generally don't know just how many moving parts go into making a basic attack animation look and feel good to play, even before you get into balancing it. Even just explaining how readaibility and predictability are very important would be good.

[@nivircescrittore8304]

> I'm itching to make a video breaking down how it works from an animator's perspective Dew it!

[@dogmaticpyrrhonist543]

Awesome. I'm working on a realistic weapon mod (a whole game just isn't on the cards, I have one of those day jobs and wife, dogs, cats, etc) and would love to see your video if/when it comes out. My current work is just to add sane weapons, but I do intend to attempt animations and combo sets that make sense. I can already see where some of the complexity will come in of course. But I bet there's things I haven't thought of.

[@cookierobber]

Would love to see that vid

[@masterchill6784]

16:45 The Idea with "progressive skill animations" is actually pretty good and would even make sense from a balancing perspective. At a lower skill-level the attack has more telegraphing and be easier to counter, than at a higher skill-level

[@ToSemIdeia841]

Yeah, now I want a game that has this mechanic

[@counterstructure4908]

@@ToSemIdeia841 Gothic (1) does that. Its skills have 2 or 3 levels, iirc, and every level had its own animation. Like one handed at 0 was with both hands and swang around more like a club. Don't remember if the sequels did that.

[@feliperisseto9113]

@@ToSemIdeia841 I think Kenshi does that.

[@sunshinenluv]

I`m not sure if that would work in games like Elden Ring, that, although with focus on combat, would add too much complexity I suppose

[@kyutifer]

Actually already doable with Skyrim mods I believe, Dynamic Animation Replacer in particular

[@josepablobonillajimenez6297]

Despite there are obviously several reasons (as others have pointed out) to keep certain weapons unrealistically slower or clunkier or have weird animations (balancing issues/animation budget etc) I think this is a very very valuable video not even for Videogames only but for writers as well and I find it as an extremely useful reference, thanks a lot

[@Olav_Hansen]

In most situations, the "balancing reasons" is a poor excuse.There would only be a balancing issue if every weapon is balanced first and THEN you adjust the animations. If you get the animations to fit first, you can take care about the balancing afterwards. Damage per swing, amount of stagger caused, stamina cost can all be altered for balancing even after the animations.

[@KaedeSenou]

Oh, YES. There are a lot of videos out there that show people who know what they’re doing using weapons, but a big reference like this is awesome for me as a writer!

[@QberryShortcake]

You're both right and wrong. Yes those can be adjusted after the fact, but if the largest sword and smallest sword have very little difference in attack speed, there's no reason to ever not use the largest sword because of the reach advantage. You have to balance risk/reward with every aspect of the weapon.

[@mondaynugget6503]

As a game dev in college I appreciate this.

[@traphimawari7760]

This could also be good reference for people looking into animating

[@MusicForMyDemons]

As an digital artist, I can only Imagine how valuable this is to so many people. Amazing idea and great job for working this out!

[@artobe4258]

I'm a professional dev too and if this # takes off it will be so good. On this topic, it's unfortunate but the AAA devs don't care for accuracy. They mostly only hire stunt performers from films for mocap and reference. They are also very heavily dug into the "traditions and norms" as you can see by the jealous backlash at Elden Rings success.

[@thememeilator2633]

Haha! I have ruined the 69 likes by being number 70 Hahaha!

[@supermintsoda743]

To boil this down into it's most basic, primordial form. "The swings should do 360s, not 180s." Also a follow up of Impractial weapon techniques might be fun. Figuring out how to use a 50 pound hunk of sharp iron as effective as possible would be a fun thing to ponder.

[@Astropeleki]

If this is the beginning of Hidetaka Miyazaki and Shad's collaboration for a Shadow of the Conqueror videogame, I want you guys to know that I was here when it started

[@yoursexualizedgrandparents6929]

Nah, comment is edited, clearly after it has happened.

[@theyhaventfedmesince]

I mean Shadow of the conqueror doesn't really feel like a fromsoft game

[@Astropeleki]

@@theyhaventfedmesince not with that attitude!

[@theyhaventfedmesince]

@@Astropeleki exactly

[@endlessnoodle3056]

@@theyhaventfedmesince Shadow of the Conqueror has nights that last decades when the world is very much apocalyptic, depressed and filled with eldritch bullshit. That's pretty standard setting for a Fromsoft game.

[@michaellaviola6540]

I’m a 3D Animator, and this is literal gold. THANK YOU Shad

[@EldritchDragoon]

The ox stance is actually part of one of the ashes of war you can get in elden ring called "square off". The "spinning strikes" or "black flame tornado" ashes of war for polearms also seems like something that you may like too.

[@gustavolrcoelho]

I'm an indie solo game developer and always wanted to make an accurate game. Thanks for the initiative!

[@gustavolrcoelho]

Also, I always wanted to ask you but never had the opportunity/money (still don´t) for that, to you have consulting fees? It always bothered me the lack of realism in castles/combat/lifestyle in these medieval settings.

[@denvergray8943]

It'd be really cool if this does become a strong reference for high-level game developers, definitely something I'd love to see. That being said, I think this is something a lot of other creators could really use too. Anyone who animates, draws, or films/choreographs medieval combat could really get a lot out of this too my man, very nice.

[@chesterbonaparte6787]

Jolly good show old chap! More of this sort of thing!

[@SneakyBadAssOG]

Since his brother is Jazza, they could do some kind of collaboration where he draws the stances in away that could be used as a reference for professionals.

[@Bubbles99718]

They do. Think you can do better then go out and do it

[@talesoffallenangels]

As someone who studied game/film animation and development, I can say this is fucking fantastic idea. Like, free publicly supported "stock" references??? Christ bless me I had that when doing my papers. To be even better I'd ask for repeating this with 3-4 cameras, one from each side and one in the front, so we can clearly see all the angles at the same time, with the same move (not a repeated one, like, just at one time) . Even without that, this is better than everything I could access without having a friend who knew how to do this things and for cameras myself.

[@hawkshot867]

Came here to say the same thing lol A side view camera, a head-on camera, and a top down (tricky I know, but if you can) camera would be invaluable. Maybe even duct tape a big + on your floor (again, if you can) and start at the center of the +. Then treat one line as "the line", or whatever Fiore calls it, for your play/move combo. You have no idea how helpful that stuff is to a 3D animator.

[@Ibian666]

This is an excellent initiative. Grassroots improvement of gaming.

[@BigVorst]

I'm seeing comments that seemingly don't know or forgot something about shields and thrusting weapons in FROM's souls genre. You can block while attacking with spears and rapiers, I'm pretty sure it's been a thing since DeS. When using either weapon, you can block and perform a light attack without dropping the block, but unless if your shield has pretty good stability (changed to guard boost in ER), it'll mess with your stamina pretty bad since attacking and blocking the hit both drains quite a bit of your stamina when done together. Especially if the enemy is a player/npc player enemy two handing their weapon, and most bosses. Stability/Guard boost reduces stamina drainage from blocking and even forces enemies to stop combos and do a sort of exposed 'bouncing off your shield' animation if high enough. You can boost this stat by upgrading your shields and using certain rings/talismans, and even certain spells & items throughout the games. ER added a shield art that boosts GB significantly for a few seconds too. FROM also only seems to allow rapiers and spears to do this because of the fact they do counter damage when timed with attack animations (although all pierce damage attacks and weapons do this regardless like the long sword heavy attack), I think the timing for the counter is when the enemy's attack animations has active hitbox frames. I know there's rings in DS1, and DS3 that boost this counter damage too. Forgot if DS2 had it, though.

[@johnson1010YT]

Also, many games have light attacks and heavy attacks. Elden ring being one of them. You can make one set of attacks for focusing a single target, like shad's halberd attack pattern, and have the other set of attacks be big sweeping moves that fully utilizes the length of the polearm. The great sword examples here are another good opportunity to see how that might play out. The precise cuts for dueling, or fast hits during a damage opportunity on a boss. The sweeping moves to fight groups of enemies, or to close the gap, or when there's only time for one hit etc.

[@eldorian91]

My favorite medieval fighting game, Vermintide 2, has heavy and light attacks and with some of the more interesting weapons like Bretonian Longsword, you can get different kinds of combos by mixing when you use light and heavy attacks. The way to look at it is each of the light attacks should have both a light and a heavy follow up attack, where the heavy follow up is also an attack in the heavy combo, tho not necessarily from the same point in the heavy combo.

[@lokasocba]

I think that is the main reason of the huge overswing attacks. Are to give the player a move set than can hit more than one target at a time and also leave a window to be punished if the attack is not used properly.

[@dogmaticpyrrhonist543]

It can get more complex than that. Even with just two attack activations (eg, 2 mouse buttons) the sequence can determine the move.

[@johnson1010YT]

@@dogmaticpyrrhonist543 Disney Infinity had move lists that changed based on button combos, or pauses between button combos. Y,Y,Y was a different combo than Y... Y,Y

[@dogmaticpyrrhonist543]

@@johnson1010YT yeah, there's lots of variation, even with just two buttons. One variation I like (for appropriate weapons) is a stab button and a swing button. Then combo sets

[@Segyl88]

16:20 In Gothic 1 and 2 there is exactly that, the animations and the combo change with the weapon skill progression of the character. And that were a 2001 and 2002 games.

[@MrOtakulord]

Gothic was made by germans, i don't see german quality games anymore. What are you? A german wargame nostalgic...HRE was a scam and you know it!

[@ViolosD2I]

As some already mentioned, covering a specific AoE is often an important factor, which for example can lead to daggers being used in slashing motions even if stabbing is more efficient. So for cases and weapons like these maybe you could show one "least terrible" option for when attacks absolutely need the width.

[@dragames]

Stabbing is actually not so efficient in multi combat because you run the risk of losing your weapon in your target.

[@dragames]

@@DizzyDisco93 knives too :/ not sure what you've read. Even polearms had a risk of getting stuck if they had a spike

[@dragames]

@@DizzyDisco93 You've only seen? as in in person? So, I'm going to take this from very limited research on the issue. You know that there are knives with grooves on it that allow blood to flow out right? What would be the point of this if knives weren't getting stuck in people. This was the surest way to keep them from having the time with the knife in them, go find help, get it removed and closed. Any bladed weapon that has piercing capabilities can get stuck between bone, lots of fleshy organs, etc. Polearms were easier to pull out of someone because you could use your foot while holding onto the shaft to pull it out, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. Duels are specifically 1 v 1 type combat, so again, the argument of multi-target combat, stabbing isn't so good. Stabbing is great 1v1, not so great 1v 2

[@dragames]

@@DizzyDisco93 Okay, so you want to stick to being uninformed. Coolio.

[@dragames]

guess I'll add on for anyone else. Fullers were originally made to reduce the weight and to widen out knives. However, they also found out later that it reduced the vacuum effect on a blade and blood would continue to run down it, thus where it got its name as blood groove or blood gutter. It's also fact that a fuller makes a stuck knife more likely for a target to bleed out faster, as that vacuum effect prevents someone from bleeding out as fast until a knife is pulled out. With a fuller, there's less time to find someone to pull it out and dress a wound if possible at all. You also run the risk of oxygen getting into the wound and while rare, oxygen in the blood not carried by a cell can cause an immediate cardiac arrest. Don't be satisfied in learning half of shit, always good to learn new things. maybe instead of sticking to the headline that "Blood grooves weren't created..." means that it didn't have a secondary effect. Like a lot of farming tools that ended up being martial arts weapons, they weren't created for it, but they had other alternative uses found out.

[@Maehedrose]

I'm going to save this video in my 'GM Tools' folder to reference when designing encounters for players. The ability to accurately describe some of the enemy attacks will add some nice variety to combat.

[@thescarblaze1061]

As some who is aspired to become a Game Developer, this is a really useful video. Thumbs up to you, Shad. I've always loved your videos about weapons and combat, and this will help me exponentially.

[@goukeban6197]

With all the advice Shad has given, specially with his Fantasy Rearmed series, you can come up with the most baller medieval fantasy RPG.

[@raulzilla]

wait until you need to balance the game... those telegraphs and openness when the animation finishes are to create openings, giving opportunities for the player or enemy to lend a hit.

[@AFpaleoCon]

In Elden Ring you’re fighting giant demons with skin probably inches thick, I don’t think a tap with the backside of the blade will do anything.

[@shadiversity]

Ah, so the examples I show must be the only options and there are no strong heavier attacks from historical combat they could use as a basis, gotcha.

[@dankyvomito]

3d artist here - Any free references is always welcomed and this is a lot of reference too which is amazing! It'd be really nice if the youtubers gathered to build a library of references so you guys are awesome! I thought I'd give input from the artists perspective hopefully to help you guys build references in the future! Slow animations like in Elden Ring really is just an aesthetic. I literally own swords and have practiced hema, and I've worked on so many things you could look at and say I don't know how a sword functions. Ultimately we're delivering to a client. Stuff like that is talked about with the art director and tested out for a while before it gets an okay. When you're making a hero piece, it really is the artists job to collect an absurd amount of references. I've made guns in the past where I've literally downloaded blueprints for exact measurements, or had clients point me to nerf guns. One of my last projects was an alligator skull as the blade of a sword, and they turned down my ideas when I tried to make it make any sense because they didn't like realism. If you type "what did sword fighting look like" into google the top results are hema youtubers. It really is just an artistic direction some people prefer, not necessarily lack of knowledge For video references, what you've done here is really awesome and useful! Another helpful thing instead of combos would actually just straight up front angle, stance, cut, return. Side angle, stance, cut, return. etc. Most animations are done by breaking up animations into many smaller ones and blending them together, so having people come up with combo ideas will be helpful for a general idea of combos, but having the straight up stance/cut would be most useful for reference! Again thanks for the free references and this is super awesome of you! Edit: I also wanted to add if you're interested in game design there's so many great books on the subject! Learning about game juice or conveying information visually may help with questions like why a shield wouldn't stay infront of you during a vulnerable state or why a stronger attack would have more post-attack frames!

[@FaceD0wnDagon]

33:00 Actually, it doesn't have to be random. One mechanic I've really liked in some games before, is that if you're mashing the attack button, you'll get one combo, but if you delay the second hit slightly, you get a different one. Just a thought :D

[@blackdeath4eternity]

barbarian onslaught the secret of steel... a tiny flash game i used to play had that to a extreme... only had spacebar for attacks but had heavy & light attacks as well as would change what the character did depending on timing & if the enemy was off balance or such.... great little game...

[@kierkegaardslamenting6869]

Holy smoke! I am working on a small animation and was looking into proper movesets for some weapons. You are a kind soul, sir!

[@fredsuper6792]

This video is such perfect timing for me! I’m making an animated short film taking place in the medieval period, and I had a fight scene that I absolutely had no idea how to get a reference for. Thank you so much!

[@lovebutter2863]

Shad just called an R1 crusade this is amazing.

[@JKKowton]

Having a tag for references is awesome for many visual artists, totally gotta put it in bookmarks and check later. 💜

[@Spare_Time_G]

Still waiting for a new Castle design!

[@mrslasher1064]

Leave it Shad to start a community wide thing,it's so crazy how connected the medieval weapons and armor community on KZbin is,it's like the anime analysis community everyone talks,everyone knows each other,it's insane...

[@marcokik677]

Hoping someone will make an AI that will simulate all of it like ifve seen on Two Minute Papers channel

[@DoctorProph3t]

@@marcokik677 … why?

[@dragonandavatarfan8865]

Except for the fact that the anime "community" is absolutely petty and cringe, and i say this as an anime fan sadly.

[@doubleh3978]

Thanks Shad! My brother and I are actually beginning developing videogames and this project could be a HUGE help for future medieval games we could make.

[@traxstaromega3467]

This is so cool! Ive been thinking about getting back into animation, and really wanted to find references like this

[@hawkshot867]

This is an awesome idea actually, Shad. I don't think video games can ever do this 1:1, because the moves have to be readable to the player - both for the player giving the inputs and the player receiving the attacks (hence why Souls games have such goofy over exaggeration), but free reference is ALWAYS awesome and irreplaceably valuable. If I may add a suggestion: straight head on camera, side view camera, and (trickiest) top down camera. It helps a lot with translating into 3D space.

[@aleksamrkela831]

This is too good to be free; looking forward to putting it to use! :D

[@BarokaiRein]

In fantasy games certain level of overswinging is basically a must because the same attack animations need to make sense when fighting massive monsters. Quick,efficient attacks look like they could barely slash the skin of an Ogre or something even though in reality they have enough power behind them to be dangerous. Aside from that there's a purely gameplay reason to have stuff like charged heavy attacks with big weapons that are really over the top and take forever to wind up and it's that being able to land those hits and knowing it did a boatload of damage feels really good. That catharsis that comes with landing hits that require you to really dedicate to the swing is basically the entire reason why Greatsword is a weapon in monster hunter.

[@maxjarvela4255]

I feel like I really want to animate stuff like this now haha, I'm an animator in the games industry and I've always been interested in martial arts :) There's a noticable disconnect of understanding between the historichal crowd and animators (both ways) but it's always cool to learn from eachother and it'd be fun to contribute ^^

[@jeremiahbell6129]

Big props to your script writing and the editing in this video. Especially during the dagger part, where you swap equipment a lot and are talking through it, it is very smooth. Very good work!

[@acemarvel1564]

Im sure a striving dev in training would be quite thankful

[@mag51284]

I think another major factor in games like elden ring is that you're fighting non-humans most of the time, and sometimes "non-organics." So I feel like sometimes the "Powerful/flashy" animation is more convincing for taking down a giant golem than a sophisticated wrist flick. Although I do realize they do make do with proper animations like the katana.

[@SirCrusher]

That idea of powerful animations being more credible for fighting bigger creatures might seem plausible, but if you think about it, swords are extremely sharp, they're made to cut, so putting extreme amounts of effort isn't a requirement to be effective, it's not a blunt instrument, and on another note, historical techniques were developed to maximize damage and minimize effort. There's no reason to think in a fantasy setting people wouldn't adapt to fight bigger monsters. That's what they do in the Witcher's universe, there are monster hunting schools that study techniques.

[@miguelsanchezamor3498]

Amazing shad, that could even make mastering system even better, like the ones in skyrim, at beginning levels the use the regular not realistic ones, but as you level up, your character gets better and actually looks like the character knows what he is doing

[@aurele2989]

*Timestamps to individual weapons* 9:10 - Dagger 12:08 - Rapier 12:40 - Parrying dagger/shield 14:33 - Shortsword 17:02 - Arming sword 21:27 - Arming sword and shield 23:10 - Dual swords 25:28 - Longsword / bastardsword 28:37 - Warsword 29:18 - Greatsword 31:52 - Single-handed Axe 34:17 - Double-handed Axe 35:25 - (Bladed) Pole-arm 36:25 - Spear 37:07 - Bow and Arrow #medievalcombatreference !

[@comradebork]

This should be pinned.

[@yoursexualizedgrandparents6929]

This is a great idea Shad, really hope it catches on.

[@Victor-dm4qv]

I will love to see more #medievalcombatreference on youtube! I will be looking it up from now on.

[@musclegeek1991]

When it comes to From Soft, it’s also important to bear in mind that they are in many cases reusing animations that date back to Demon Souls.

[@projectdaaltaran]

Yeah, can't imagine them changing their iconic zweihander animation. I remember watching my roommate swing that thing around in ds1.

[@musclegeek1991]

@@projectdaaltaran they could and should change it. But that doesn’t mean they will. Maybe years down the line there will be an engine change and they won’t be able to copy paste the animations anymore, but as long as they can they will. Honestly I’m convinced that’s the main problem. Combat feels amazing in sekiro, partially because it’s a very different game and they built it from the ground up without reusing any old animations.

[@epsilon017]

Being an aspiring gamedev and pixel-artist myself, I've been following this channel along with Skallagrim (And some of the others that you've mentioned, but your channel and Skall's tend to get more of my focus) in hopes to find some inspiration for putting together my own projects. I'm glad to see a project like this is being kicked off, and I'm wishing you the best with it!

[@TheAnonymousSword]

Adorea is definitly one of these channels to look out for. They have a good use of historical techniques applied to movie swordfighting and phenomenal stuntwork.

[@Topstormking]

"You need telegraphing to do PvP" ~Shadiversity *Mount and Blade players on fastest combat speed doing PvP* "You need what now?!?"

[@thomasray9830]

The idea to watch your character advance into better technique would be absolutely amazing

[@iamwhatitorture6072]

I'm kinda surprised you haven't already made a video like this. It's nice that you incorporate the limitations of game design.

[@samfish2550]

In defense of the big sweeps with straight sword it is really useful for what the weapon was balanced as, a jack of all trades, the big swinging heavies act as great crowd control. At least in elden ring. Plus the souls games have always had a mix, like ultra great swords, that literally can't have a realistic move set, at least we have some stuff that's realistic

[@AWanderingSwordsman]

Indeed, from a gameplay perspective, the straight sword R1 combo is the best moveset in every souls game. Hits short enemies, hits groups of enemies, hits quickly and thus has high dps and the big range is consistent so you don't have to account for that one weird move that is more vertical.

[@ecrazatator9]

As a student in animation and video games : Thanks you ! This video is a blessing 🙏 Lot of references ! It will also helo to design better weapons for video games character.

[@insertusername7342]

As a small upstart indie game developer, thank you! Been watching your channel for half a decade, but this was still very helpful! :)

[@bullwyrk]

This reminds me of a game from my childhood called Gothic (1 and 2). In the begining you where a noob that didn't know how to swing a wepon but, as you progressed and learned different stages of combat from certain npcs your stances changed and the strikes with wepons and that made it more immersive. Just that principle of getting better not just in stats and dmg but also visual made the game one of my favourites. Ah and it also had crafting to a certain degree.

[@EnraEnerato]

Yup, wanted to comment this as well and if my memory serves me right, the left and right "swing combo" etc. got an easier timing window with training the level up as well. Sure the animations were "rough", but we're talking about a game that's from 2001 and let's be honest 20 years ago that was pretty decent with what they could techincally realise in terms of hardware and coding.

[@Chris-hx3oe]

It is even better than you remember. When you are untrained with one handed weapons you use them in both hands. Your first teacher tells you "Dont even think about using that sword in two hands"

[@EnraEnerato]

@@Chris-hx3oe Welp, time for a replay then!

[@Chris-hx3oe]

@@EnraEnerato kzbin.info/www/bejne/gIqbhouneLF3rpo Gothic did such a good job combining game mechanics with world building and immersion. Still one of my favorites.

[@jeffreybogard2713]

See, some of the reason the animations are that slow is for balance. Nobody would use daggers if greatswords weren't much slower. However, I think there are still a lot of improvements that could be made to animations that could still allow for game balance.

[@dscarmo]

You could still use the realistic animation but slower than the realistic dagger animation Another problem is cleave, the Elden Ring greatsword animations are for the hitbox to hit a large area, this is never the intention of realistic combat. If we had to fight giant rats wolfs and monsters at the time I am sure medieval combat would be different

[@amirhosseinmaghsoodi388]

It could be that the larger swords take more energy to use if that is a mechanic in the game

[@Sonofsun.]

Yeah they don't have to be slower just lessen the damage

[@shadiversity]

You can still have have giant and slow fantasy weapons, the issue is that the historical weapons are depicted as heavy and slow when they're not, spreading the misconception that medieval swords were clunky heavy, crude chunks of metal.

[@tarille1043]

Daggers could still be useful even if longswords/greatswords were the same speed. Armor bypassing, better critical damage, stealth attack bonuses, bonus while grappling (If using mechanics similar to Dragon's Dogma or Monster Hunter where you can hold onto/climb enemies) because you can get up close and get the dagger into the key spots. These are design aspects that are often used in video games too, though their balance is sometimes iffy (Such as in Elden Ring where stealth becomes basically obsolete after the first 20% of the game when the return of auto-detection and groups of enemies clumped together. Best case use is you wail on something with a giant weapon until they stagger then swap out to a dagger for the critical attack) That said, there can be compromises too. Like, you keep longswords and greatswords slower than daggers and "Longswords" but you don't make them ultra-slow-one-swing-per-annum stuff. But you also tone down their damage so it's not like 10x that of a dagger swing to compensate. You can even actually keep some crazy slow and powerful weapons where it makes sense, for things that are _obviously_ oversized (Things like the Dragon Bone Smasher from Demon's Souls or Smough's Hammer from Dark Souls). That is, so long as weapon design also goes for something more reasonably sized, not "My Longsword is thicker than most trees"

[@GrievousKhan]

This is an inspired and amazing idea. I hope game developers make use of resources like this for future games based in grounded medieval settings.

[@lokin42]

Even before stumbling upon your channel the Katanas in Elden Ring just felt best to me and now I think I know why. Looking forward to a future with more accurate movesets in games, these techniques look awesome! Thank you for educating the industry!

[@theheadbangguy5985]

Well Shad if everyone tried to make combat as realistic as possible all games would be Kongdom Come: Deliverance. I loved that game but the combat was so frustrating that I just ditched melee all together and went with a bow. Making it as realistic as possible would take much fun out of it for most players, including myself. I love medieval realism as much as the next guy, but if I'm playing a fantacy video game I can suspend my disbelief for a bit for the sake of more fun and varied mechanics.

[@kkkender]

In fact, the combat system was what got me interested in Kingdom come So of course, we don't want all games be like it, but I'd definitely vote for more games with advanced melee combat mechanics

[@Danny-zn3nz]

Disagree. The reason KC:D's combat was frustrating was because it was unncessarily slow and clunky (e.g. BS slowdown during perfect block); it isn't due to animations being more "realisitc". Realistic combat not only looks better, but has more weight and impact to their attacks than wildly flailing your weapon around like a fool. A great example is katana and saber movesets from Elden Ring; they look significantly more elegant and powerful than shortswords/longswords. Obviously, game design takes priority over realism any day, and many developers are too busy to care about incorporating small details such as realism. My point is that realistic combat does not automatically equal to worse gameplay; it can be contrary if done right.

[@torshec8634]

We need more Half-swording, Sword and Parrying Dagger Dual-wielding, and Fencing.

[@CrayleSt]

I'm an indie game dev, this helps a lot.

[@Valkirio4]

This really is a great initiative. If it catches on, i'm sure it will have a positive effect for the video game and movie industry.

[@FluffyJackie]

Thank you so much! It still will take quite some time but this is exactly what I needed.

[@theworldofcronis]

Great, this gift is needed, hope the devs are taking notes. 😃

[@jmell458]

This is a really good starting point! I would love to see animators and game designers weigh in and tweak these further! E.g. animation has really specific rules that moves have to adhere to for it to work in that context, so I'd love to see how they would blend the two into an awesome final form!

[@HarantheBlue]

Need a button that cycles stances, each stance with its own combo moveset. Or a menu for custom stance and combo mapping, sequenced based on compatibility with the previous stance/move. Loved this video!

[@MethosJK9]

Bushido Blade used this system back in the late 90s

[@zgmf-x19ainfinitejustice28]

Nioh

[@marly1017]

The long sword combos are absolutely amazing

[@joshthompson3523]

Honestly this makes me want to see you do a review of some of the move sets in for honor. Sure there are typical video game inaccuracies, but there are a lot of things that they get right. Lawbringer for instance makes use of every part of his poleaxe and his top guard is similar to an actual polearm guard

[@Donovan-bw3cd]

Or perhaps the Wu Lin, they actually really tried to base all their attacks off of real Chinese martial arts, such as Tiandi with their Dao

[@doodoostickstain]

I really hope that they listen to this

[@VinceW187]

There is plenty of KZbinrs who only complain about movies and games. Now you are helping provide material that they can use as inspiration for future content

[@blackfin2389]

Shad is a Madman...God bless him. Best hopes to this project and the amazing fight scenes made because of it!

[@narvuntien]

I had a friend that was into medieval combat and VR. I think he moved into medical imaging because there was money in it but his degrees were in medieval studies.

[@bare_bear_hands]

Thanks Shad for the initiative and effort! May this be the beginning of the rise in quality that we all expect from developers!

[@Irish_Enderman]

Can't wait to check out the videos made from this # It's gonna be great to hopefully see more accurate fighting in video games

[@shadowthedragon7151]

Dang, now i really wanna add in some fun animations for the greatsword moveset myself! Running attacks, maybe some heavy attack combos, sounds like a blast

[@inquisitorbenediktanders3142]

What I personally would want to see is first person reference material in particular, because it feels like that is very hard to do for game devs due to the fact that when there is melee in first person games they quite often look rather bad in terms of realism and/or force feedback.

[@blackdeath4eternity]

so we need a bunch of people wielding swords to wear go-pro helmets.... the one video on skalligrims channel was wonderful to watch for sabers in first person.

[@ryanprusak8524]

Just wanted to say this is excellent for writing too. Thank you Shad!

[@NoahStavish]

I'm currently working as a producer for a game set in late 18th century Malta, and players will have access to a few swords and daggers along with guns, so I really appreciate this!

[@arattactician5697]

Such a great idea! I really hope this kicks off.

[@steii]

It would be really useful if their was an alternate camera angle for each moves, for clarity sake. Awesome video nonetheless !

[@TimParker-Chambers]

This is such a great idea, Shad, kudos for suggesting it, and inviting others to contribute as well, this should lead to an amazing resource for game devs 🙏🙏👍👍

[@uwuziel]

This is so friggin cool! This is going to turn into such an amazing resource for not only game or film creators, but artists and enthusiasts too! On behalf of all those communities, we appreciate this initiative! Thank you for taking your time to kickstart this project!

[@Yarblocosifilitico]

love that you rallied the sword community to make more videos like this. We're about to see a lot of cool content. Hope we see the impact of the initiative a few years from now! For example, Kenshi 2 is in production... I hope they watch this.

[@BlackHawk264]

I've wanted to see realistic spear animations in games for a long time, or even spears in general. I've taken a big liking to spears in real life too because of you Shad and I've been trying to look into historical spear techniques but haven't sadly found any good references yet.

[@roro2053]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/r2S3c5uNjdOVfdU kzbin.info/www/bejne/lWHYhJycbt9ln6s kzbin.info/www/bejne/fJKzXn6rbc2KfLc Check these two channels. This is by far the best showcase of spearmanship I have ever seen online.

[@BlackHawk264]

@@roro2053 thank you very much!

[@twoheadedchicken7904]

Its probably because spears are op

[@doctorrpg6255]

Holy crap. Thanks a whole bunch for this. I'm definitely using this vid now for my game projects.

[@afasdfasafd314]

this is amazing, thanks for making this video!

[@MarkusJackDijkgraaf]

Great idea. For film the excuse is often, that it needs to look flashy and good. I'd love to see "bad style" for low-level heroes and more and more acurate techniques, the higher the level goes, but that's asking too much probably.

[@justinthompson6364]

There's already some foundation in the gameplay of Fromsoft games, really. In the Souls series (and Elden Ring too, I would assume), weapons have a minimum stat requirement- you can still use them, but they're significantly less effective than if you actually meet the requirements. I might be misremembering, but I think that was even reflected in the animations in some installments? Then there's the fact that they also generally scale with one or more stats that _exceed_ the requirements gaining more damage. Although it would probably be labor intensive, I could imagine a system where characters get different animation sets by reaching certain stat milestones above the requirements for the weapon. Perhaps those animations could even be objectively better than the more basic ones, being executed more quickly, having better hitboxes, etc.

[@MarkusJackDijkgraaf]

@@justinthompson6364 I remember that from Dark Souls. But in Elden Ring the damage just scales down.

[@grittynerd]

There's an old game called Soulbringer that uses very smooth attack animations, lots of attacks depending of the weapons. Lunges, feints, slashes down, trush to the head, etc. For a 2000 game is pretty impressive, more so when it has sprites joined together with joints, not 3d models or one animated sprite.

[@einsiedler5075]

I should treasure and cherish this video like a childhood memory

[@andrewomernik548]

This is an amazing reference. Love it!

[@TekkenBunny]

I would love if you could check out the game "Hellish Quart" as they are really putting in some thoughts into their combat system. I am even surprised that you didn't already cover that one :D

[@Daves_Not_Here_Man_76]

He knows. They all know and love it

[@OniGanon]

I think it's not just a matter of lacking reference. I reckon a lot of it is a matter of game balance, especially in pvp. There's a limit to how often you can dodge or parry. If you had historically accurating swing speeds, dodges/parries won't be able to keep up with that. You'd need to add weapon clashing or something as well.

[@user-it3xy2cw1t]

They can just make slower and still fast enough to be readable

[@Falx415]

Thank you for doing this Shad! I hope more people such as the content creators mentioned in the video join in. As someone who is endeavouring to make a game with a heavy focus on melee combat, I want to have as many realistic and varied weapon move-sets as I can get. Even more beneficial is how you wanted to maintain the balance between practicality and game functionality by giving small tells, versus the super obvious kind seen in FromSoft games.

[@viscountsb7140]

Seeing Shad use the bow gave me second hand back pain lol

[@comradebork]

It reminded me of reading /Zen in the Art of Archery/ decades ago.