A Guide on Increasing your Echo SubStats | Wuthering Waves

[@viciousvndta]

Hey, everyone, I made a little mistake with the tuner numbers. Just multiply my tuner numbers by 10, and you are good to go!

[@prateekagarwal1]

Ah just 10x. I mean such a minor calculation error happens to the best of us

[@tilazt]

honestly my problem is not really with credits but rather echo exp, I never seem to have enough to roll all the echos i get, even while optimizing the shit out of every thing and being very picky with which echoes I push higher. but thanks for the video it was interesting to see

[@viciousvndta]

Okay, so I did a little mistake. I just calculated the Exp-Materials that we need to spend, as Cost in Shell Credits, which I did for Tuners too, but I did not consider the fact that we need to actually USE the Exp-Materials too and not just the Shell Credits and Tuners. I might update this guide, however the outcome wouldn't really change, in fact it might get even worse because this sort of increases the costs by spending not just Shell Credits and Tuners but Exp-Materials as well. That makes it even less efficient to roll for higher levels unless you have pretty good substats already.

[@aceherock7851]

Very well explained 😊

[@Google_Censored_Commenter]

Idk the methodology here seems flawed. Before you even get started optimizing, the starting point should be tuning as many level 5 echos as you can, until you hit a crit, or whatever other desired stat you're looking for, then you optimize from there. Since level 5 barely costs any echo XP. That changes the entire calculation, which is quite a shame, since it seems you put a lot of work into this. But I do agree with your advice of never going past 20 if you don't have at least 2 good sub stat rolls on it. Level 20 with 2 sub stats could be viewed as our ultimate goal, the question then becomes what's the most cost effective way to get there. EDIT: After having thought about it some more, the problem actually isn't that complicated. The same logic applies for level 0 echoes as it does level 5 ones. We're always fishing for certain stats, and while the probabilities become more favorable as level increases, the costs always outweigh those marginally more favorable odds. Thus, the best appraoch is to level / tune each echo only once until we get a desired stat. Then among the echoes with a desired stat, we tune each of them once, until we run out of echoes. At this point we can then consider whether we wish to sacrifice our time farming more echoes to tune, or our resource efficiency by leveling our best echoes to 15 / 20, hoping we get the second substat. Should we at any point get the second substat we're looking for, we can safely level that echo to 25 and move on.

[@viciousvndta]

Okay, so to begin with. You are right. When trying not to spend too many resources, then we definitely should stop at Level 5, unless we have the desired substat. However, we are not looking for just a single substat but multiple ones. Most important, we want to look for 2 substats - Crit Rate and Crit Damage. In that case, when having the desired substat at Level 5, we definitely need to roll higher. And that is where my guide starts. The probability of having the second desired substat at Level 15, is 3 times higher compared to Level 10, while the cost is just 1.77 times higher at Level 15 compared to Level 10. I should have done another curve showing the probability scaling factor side by side with the Shell Credit scaling factor. I was looking for how much resources are worth spending based on the probability and cost (Shell Credits; Tuners) while achieving the desired substats. Since my guide was about only 2 but not 3 desired substats, we want Crit Rate and Crit Damage only: - At Level 5: If you have no Crit Stat at Level5, stop. - At Level 5: If you have 1/2, continue to Level 15. - At Level 15: If you still have 1, stop - unless the value is really high, in that case you COULD try Level 20 but definitely stop here. - At Level 20: If you still only have 1 Crit Stat, 100% stop now. Now if you want to save the absolute most amount of resources, then sure, you would stop every time you roll a substat that is not desired. That would include while having both Crit Rate AND Crit Damage, if the third substat is not ATK% or anything else you desire, you would still discard the echo even tho it has two of the desired substats already. Crit Rate + Crit Damage paired with ATK% is a lot better than paired with HP% / DEF%, which is why you would discard that echo as well. This however can also start to waste your resources, because instead of going for the top ~5%, you only aim for the top ~1% (not real numbers). That leads into spending many resources but having only little outcome.

[@Google_Censored_Commenter]

@@viciousvndta You say the probability of the second desired substat at level 15 is 3 times higher than level 10, but think about this logically, how could it ever be 3 times higher? Even without doing any math, that makes no intuitive sense. You're only doing one additional roll. If you have a deck of 12 cards, with 1 ace among them, the chance of drawing that ace (the equivalent of tuning at 10) is 1/12. If you fail to draw it, you now have the option to draw from a fresh deck, *or* to draw yet another card from the same deck (tuning at 15), and you're claiming this option gives you a 3 times greater chance? Ludicrous. It's 10% higher at best, from my napkin math. Now let's account for the cost. If I asked you to pay 10 dollars to draw from a deck to get an ace, and you fail, are you really gonna tell me you would pay 17.7 dollars for the second attempt from the same deck, rather than paying the 10 to draw from a secondary deck? It does not make logical sense, which is why I said originally this problem is much simpler than it looks. You don't even have to get into combined probabilities.

[@viciousvndta]

@@Google_Censored_Commenter Okay, so the math is actually quite simple. But first lets get a few things right. The first pull is 1/13; the second is 1/12 and the third is 1/11. This is because there is 13 substats in total, but you can not get a substat twice, so the chance increases with each pull. Now, when you have ONE pull already, you are right, the chance for the next pull is not that much higher. This is the almost 'linear' graph you see here: 2:44 But the point you need to understand is that this is just for a SINGLE pull at each level. However, we want not 1 but 2 specific substats. And we start at 0 and not at having one already. Because this is the situation we are in - we have an echo at level 0 with no substats, and we want it to have Crit Rate and Crit Damage. We do not get echos with a substat already. So we need to start leveling and start pulling. For example, you think the overall chance is 1/13 for the first pull, which is right, but considering the fact that we want Crit Rate OR Crit Damage, it is actually not 1/13 but 1/13 + 1/13 or (2 * 1 / 13) = 2/13 because both stats have the same probability. This way we get the probability of having either Crit Rate OR Crit Damage at Level 5. Now for the second pull there will be no change, it is still 1/12 if there is only 1 stat remaining, but if both are still obtainable, the chance is 2/12. That means, at Level 10, the chance of having Crit Rate OR Crit Damage is 1/12. The OR is really important. Now we calculate the probability of having 2 specific substats at each level. That means, Crit Rate AND Crit Damage. At level 5, this is obviously 0 because we have 1 roll only. So there is no chance in having both substats. But we can do the calculation for the next levels. It goes like this: N being the total number of substats at each pull - Level 5: 13; Level 10: 12 and so on. We need to change this value for each level. k being the number of the specific substats we desire, since there are differences between each substat, this is always equal to 2. n is the number of pulls. This value increase by 1 at Level%5 = 0 (if Level modulo 5 is equal to 1), or rather Level 5 = 1; Level 10 = 2; Level 15 = 3 and so on. Since we want to know the success rate for 2 substats at each level, x = 2 because we want both (2) specific substats. Now, the formula goes like this: P(x) = ( (n over k) * ((N - k) over (n - x)) ) / ( N over n ) (this is really hard to tell via YT btw...) In python, it is something like this: P = (math.comb(k, x) * math.comb(N - k, n - x)) / math.comb(N, n) Now doing this for each level would mean that both x = k = 2 is constant, while N decreases and n increases. This btw is the other graph also at 2:44 which is not linear but starts to increase exponentially. And it makes sense. Look at it from this perspective: Your echo is Level 10 with no substats yet. You can pull 2 times vs. your Level 15 echo, you can pull 3 times. Now where is it more likely to have both substats? Two pulls vs three pulls? You will get more echos at Level15 vs. Level10 that have both substats. Now looking from the perspective that you have one substat already, that means that both x and k would change to 1. There for, there is almost no increase in probability because your pulls would also be 1 fewer, since you have pulled at level 5 already. That means for Level10 it would not be 2, but 1. Which makes it 1/12 again. However, we need to roll one out of two desired substats first, before even going to Level10 and the second pull. So mathematically, you could just straight up pull two times at Level 10. Now, I know, you wouldn't wanna do this just like you wouldn't go straight to level 25, because of the cost. However, the cost has no effect on the probability. Which is why we had to view both in separated graphs and then compare at the end to make our conclusions. EDIT: Just so you know, n over k = n! / ( k! * (n - k)! ) and n! is being calculated like this: 5! = 5 * 4 * 3 * 2 * 1; with 3! = 3 * 2 * 1 and with 7! = 7 * 6 * 5 * 4 * 3 * 2 * 1

[@Google_Censored_Commenter]

​@@viciousvndtaFirst, sorry that I wasn't very clear in my second comment, but in my original one I made it clear that it is redundant to calculate odds starting from 0, because in reality, no one is starting from 0. The optimal strategy is to level as many echoes as you can to 5, tune them, and then you go from there. So you can consider the first substat roll guaranteed, in the sense that we're not going to be leveling any echo to 10 which doesn't have a desired substat in the first place. Remember that our restriction is echo XP, which your response didn't talk about at all, but it was what I highlighted you got wrong. And while you could look at this problem from an angle of XP not being the limited factor, but when you do that, the problem disappears entirely. Why? Because with limitless XP, you simply level everything to 25, and pick the best echo. The whole reason we care about this question is precisely because the restraint is echo XP. And with that restriction in mind, your approach is no longer mathematically sound. There is a reason I did not go into the math in my comment, because the probability changes based on your strategy. When you do math, it's very easy to find a solution to a problem that's very similar to the real problem, but where the real solution drastically differs. I provided an analogy to cards to avoid this predicament. So I ask again, if you're attempting to draw an ace out of a 12 card deck (or 13, doesn't matter), and you fail, is it more cost effective to pay 10 dollars to draw from a secondary deck, or 17.7 dollars from the same deck once more? The answer should be obvious, before you even do the math. Even if we frame the problem incorrectly, like you suggested, drawing 2 cards from the deck for 10 dollars, vs drawing 3 cards for 27.7 dollars, it just doesn't make sense to ever draw 3 cards when you account for cost. What I'd like from you is to either explain why paying 17.7 dollars makes intuitive sense, or why my card analogy fails.

[@viciousvndta]

​@@Google_Censored_Commenter Okay, so I totally get what you are saying. Now, to make one thing clear first, I did not pretend having unlimited resources. I did put XP-cost in my calculations. To explain it very simple, I did consider XP as cost, like 500 XP costs 50 Shell Credits. This is not wrong, however you are right in terms of the need to both have the XP material AND the Shell Credits. So I am not 100% correct, however, the XP Materials would scale almost the same way the Shell Credits cost scales, slightly less because I included the cost for tuners too. Another thing is, we have to calculate the probability for each level and not pretend that we have one result already. Because a) we can not guarantee having this result already, and b) it would just negate the costs to get this result. This means you would basically have Level5 with Crit for free, and then start the statistics. Now obviously, we do not have this. I calculated the probability for each level to have both substats, no matter the previous outcome and then compared it with the total cost. The statistics won't change based on the previous outcome, since we still need to keep the cost we had for leveling to Level 5 and pulling one substat. Now here is the problem with your card example, if only the first pull costs 10 dollars and all other pulls cost 17.7, it only scales linear. WuWa's echo system on the other hand scales exponentially in cost, which makes it much harder in my opinion. Plus you are wrong about one thing because you are not doing the math. Restarting would cost 10 dollars while having the chance of 1/13 when referring to your last example given. However, even when spending the extra 17,7$ it would be more likely to have the desired card after 10 pulls without restarting, compared to restarting. Because 1/13 when restarting. This means we have the Card for 100$ with 10 pulls vs 13 pulls and 130$ statistically. Any other results are just pure luck or bad luck. That means, in the long term, in would be ALWAYS smarter to spend the 80$ for 10 pulls. That means, even when money is rare, it is more likely to save money while achieving the desired result. Now if XP-Materials in WuWa are $, the question is, how rare is it actually. If it is too rare, then not going to Level 15 would mean keeping resources while having a worse outcome in terms of echoes with both Crit Rate AND Crit Damage. When spending the saved resources, the only way to get a better outcome is by pure luck. Which is not what we should be looking for in the long term. In the long term, the sweet spot would always be level 15, where you save more resources while have the best echoes - both, not one by one compared to any other level. Stopping before would result in worse echoes while having more resources, going higher would be the opposite. The issue which you need to understand is, that at level 5 we do not know the scaling yet. So there basically is infinite scaling compared to not having ANY substats yet, which is the case before level 5. Because 1 / 0 is not possible so ~infinite. After level 5 we can see the scaling (of substats, cost scales before level 5 already, but we need both for camparison), however, the issue is that we are not just looking for one, but TWO substats. Since we can not have 2 substats at level 5, we basically have infinite scaling from 5 to level 10 with 2 specific substats. So we need to go one step further to see the true scaling. At Level 15 we see that is has scaled by 3 times, and after level 15 it starts to fall off. That means, you should never go higher than level 15, UNLESS you have what you want already and what else I said at the end of my video. I never said go straight to level 15. We simply can not have data before level 15, which is why level 15 is the sweet spot. Now, since we want to save on resources, you are right, it might be smarter to check for level 5 first, and only go higher if we have Crit Stats already. But for going higher it would make no sense to go to level 10 and then stop. This is basically how interpreted this data I collected. With only XP restrictions in mind, then there is no need to check for any sweet spot. Because save where you can and discard all others. However, you will still spend resources even when trying to save them, and you sadly will have no outcome at all with guaranteed loss even when reusing the leveled echo as XP for the next echo. This is the entire reason to look for a sweet spot. To get more value out of your spend resources. Which is at level 15. This is does not mean, go straight to level 15, but it means you have the best outcome while having the lowest cost. I probably need to make another video, cause in this one I mostly showed data and kind of tried to explain what it means, so that everyone understands, but I think it might be easier to understand some simple rules instead with less data and only back up my decision with the data shown. Also, for some reason, I did not show the scaling tables. But I can provide these or will provide them within a new video. Btw, thank you for not just saying I am right or wrong but having this discussion instead. This made my rethink about some things again and not just stick my point + it makes other people think about this too and not just blindly believe in what I was saying. Which is why I made this video. The guy talking about this clock timer has nothing to proof his claims but people believe him for no reason.

[@RichLifeStories]

Thank you sir! I did the lvl 10 crit rolls, if no crit then merged, but it started to become inefficient and felt 15 would be the sweet spot.

[@RawFish2DChannel]

so if I understand correctly it works like this: when tuning echo dont go past lvl 15 if it only/mosly rolled bad substats (HP/DEF) don't go past lvl 20 if it rolled only one good substat (Crit.Rate/Crit. DMG) it's fine to tune for lvl 25 if you have high roll good substat (like 10.5 Crit. Rate) (idk what high roll for Crit. DMG and Skill/Liberation DMG and ATK% look like)

[@viciousvndta]

I need to clarify this more in future, which I have realized already. So there might be another video xd So first, max for DMG is 19.9/21%, Rate 9.9/10.5, ATK%/LIB 10.9/11.6% We focus on crit rate AND crit damage (both). If you have 0 crit stop at level 15. If you have 1 crit AND good matching stats like ATK%, go level 20. If you have a MAX roll + matching stats think about level 25 with level 25 being a LAAARGE gamble. Keep in mind, that everything above level 15 becomes a gamble. It will be more likely to get what you want, but in the long term, you will lose more resources after level 15 compared to the echoes gained.The sweet spot is level 15 - here is where you have lowest cost with highest outcome. Now obviously you will not have double crit + ATK%/LIB on level 15 very often. Which is why you might want to go further, depending on your stats.

[@Gurenn83]

I keep leveling from 20 to 25 just to get the second missing crit stat out of frustration. Good thing I have watched this so I can just stop at 20 if I only have either a crit rate or crit damage.

[@viciousvndta]

I did that too, and while I got lucky a few times, I mostly ended up regretting it

[@vladys001]

so, intuitively after leveling more than 1000 exhoes I came to the same conclusion - just stop at lvl 15 if no useful subs. But I still have some doubts about higher chance of good substats on higher levels - they are still the same, and useful ratio I'd say on lvl 20 to have at least 2.5 useful substats, unless you don't have any other alternatives. And yea, you can get double crit+atk on your first week of farming and might not get double crit on some pieces even after month-worth of resources spent

[@viciousvndta]

Well, these stats are just for 2 specific substats like double crit. Of couse we want a third being ATK% but I have no data for these probabilities. And it obviously would start at level 15 and not before, wither probabilities after level 15. The sweet spot most likely being level 20 since there is no more room left, but not sure considering the cost. I might pick up on this, I will most likely make another video and try to solve some peoples question be being a little more precise about certain things. But you are absolutely right, at the end of a day, its more luck than anything else

[@vladys001]

@@viciousvndta for some characters it is also important to get ER%, like Shorekeeper or Zhezhi (to avoid using ER main stats), for majority of DPSes it is really nice to have some specific Resonance damage (skill or liberation) or basic/heavy attack, but not the other. So ideal sub stats for Jinhsi would look like: crt rate, crt dmg, atk%, res skill, flat atk/er%/res lib those last three I would call them half useful, thus the .5 in my original comment. Maybe try for specific characters, and you will see that most of dpses have similar demands, where for supports it is usually ER% is much more important than other stats. It would be interesting to see what you will come up with in result

[@mazethemercenary]

I needed this video yesterday 😭

[@viciousvndta]

That is very unlucky. I hope you didn't spend too many resources. But in future, you can be more efficient!

[@AstaKun-d4u]

this was some good advice

[@Narniabs]

You could do this in practice, trying to build a character, leveling up and showing when or not it's worth going to +15 +20 or +25

[@viciousvndta]

Yeah, good idea! I will do this for sure in an updated video, where I also clarify on some things.

[@HomiePopTart23]

I have no problem with the cost of putting up echos, shell wise but I have constantly run out of the echo XP levelers T^T

[@viciousvndta]

XP was within the calculation but as tuners. Whhich might not be 100% correct since we get much more Shell Credits than we do get XP. I will update this and make a second guide I think.

[@gabrielleurielle8869]

I just go for it after comparing two +10 echo... One has flat attack and defense while the other has %. The echo with flat substats becomes a sacrifice to the RNG god and gave the % echo 7.5% crit rate and 15% crit damage on the last two substats after going all in to +25... True story. 😂😂😂😂😂 For me, It's better to have % substats on your worse echoes that you'll replace later than having flat substat unless you already have the same % substat and you need that substat. 😊😊😊😊😊

[@viciousvndta]

The RNG god gives, but he also takes - and he takes away more resources at level 25, than he gives us good echoes :D

[@toxicdumplings2814]

I just +25 everything and hope for the best lmao and doing that actually gave me an echo with all stats: ER, crit rate, crit dmg, atk% and resonance skill dmg for carlotta

[@viciousvndta]

Now sure, this can work, and the probabilities increase each time, but it is more luck than anything else. Most of the time, you will be losing more resources, than gaining good echoes.

[@toxicdumplings2814]

@@viciousvndta yea ik im losing resources but i havent been to a point where i cant upgrade anything. i just think its more fun to me to go all out lol

[@badcat8393]

well, still everything is on luck, got 20 crit dmg from 25, with crit rate earlier, or instead, i could try leveling up another 5 echoes to 20 and not obtain it and just spend x5 materials on trying this very efficient way. so following this guide, you potentially lose a chance to obtain a good echo on 25 that can bring more material loses in attempts of getting crit dmg and rate in +20 echo, and that is also has pretty low chances

[@viciousvndta]

What you are saying is not incorrect, however you just negated the fact that we do roll more often for 5 level 15 echoes (5 * 3) vs 1 * 5 for a level 25 echo. Statics using math give us a relatively precise prediction, but only for a high number of attempts. For lower numbers, it is more likely for this prediction to be wrong. Since our resources are very rare and limited, we need to have as many attempts as possible, while trying to achieve the best outcome. Now, the sweet spot for this is Level 15. You actually lose more attempts with an overall higher chance of having double crit, by not going for 5 new echoes at Level 15, but going for Level 25 on a single echo instead. Because (1 * 5 = 5) < (5 * 3 = 15) and the probability not out scaling the cost. The issue is the amount of resources to spend, and not the probabilities alone. In the long term, you will end up with fewer Level 25 echoes, with the desired substats, because the probability scales worse than the cost - compared to stopping earlier, and going with new but more echoes to Level 15. Now, if this is hard to understand or not convincing, you might need to do these calculations yourself.

[@陈祥智-y3v]

Problem is.. When you don't have the time to farm echo, even if you have time, its still crazy hard to obtain that specific main stat + set that you want. You know the strat but have 0 echo to upgrades. I spend my waveplates on tacet field, and I have like 600 gold echo exp with hundreds of purple ones too, more than 5k gold tuners. And very limited echo to upgrade 😂

[@陈祥智-y3v]

So I kinda yolo most of the time when I got one and upgrades it to lvl 20. I still have bloated amount of exp pills and tuners

[@viciousvndta]

@@陈祥智-y3v At one point, I had more than 5k too, but when you farm many echoes and try to build multiple teams, you lose resources really fast. Which is why you should start to be more efficient with your resources to get the maximum outcome.

[@alonula6093]

me fr. i have enough xp to max out a hundred echoes but i have none that i can level, because they have horrible main stats

[@Gaeshiete]

Isnt it 10 tuners and not 1 for an echo substat?

[@vanilla5930]

yes

[@viciousvndta]

Yea, sorry. You need to multiply my tuner numbers by 10. ^^

[@gilgamesh7679]

Wait I thought flat stats are trash. Is flat atk actually good in this game?

[@jokesy6112]

from my experience flat atk isnt good. only some characters with low atk might benefit but % is still way better. i remember testing a while ago and a % atk gave me easily over 100 dmg while flat atk i think maxes out at 50. flat atk is still better tthan getting def tho.

[@viciousvndta]

Flat ATK itself is 'okay'. ATK% is with no doubts the better stat by far. However, I'd rather have a flat ATK roll on my damage dealers, than having ANY def/hp (% or flat) stat. Flat ATK starts at 40 and goes up to 70. So having flat ATK at 3 echoes can give you between 120 and 210 ATK which is not tooo bad tbh. Now of course this shouldn't be your focus. This is just my opinion (and sometimes I prefer ER over other stats, depends on character): 1. Crit Rate + Crit Damage (ONLY BOTH, no singles) 2. ATK% 3. Resonance liberation damage 4. Energy Regen 5. Flat ATK? EDIT: A perfect damage dealing echo might look like this: Crit Rate/DMG; ATK%; Resonance Bonus; ATK; ER

[@theM4A1king23]

just be get and tap the subs lol

[@fellownameless]

They shoud just copy Genshin/HSR system and having echo drop already with substats. It's stuid how liitle resources we get for such an expensive system.

[@viciousvndta]

I remember in Summoners War, they had a similar system to Genshin, where you get substats with 6-Star runes already. However, if the rune was not legendary, you only get 3 and not 4 substats. So getting a 6-star legendary rune with the right mainstat AND substats was a lot of playing, which costed energy. Seeing the substats roll all into HP% and not my other 3 CRIT RATE/ CRIT DMG/ ATK%, is really painful. That is why I prefer WuWa system. Once databank level 20, you can only get legendary/gold echoes, and farming them costs no energy but time. While energy in Summoners War was limited, my time is not - kinda. ^^ And farming wasn't fun either, because you would do nothing but just watch the auto battle similar to HSR. So rolling for substats in WuWa does not feel like pain, and farming echoes is fun to me. I prefer WuWa system over SW and Genshin tbh.

[@Byak10]

Genshin system is way worse when it comes to RNG

[@vanilla5930]

don't think so. the substat system in hsr/genshin is random either way, just doesn't cost resources, but also has much more RNG involved since you have to pray that the specific substats you want get upgraded. IMO wuwa's substat system is better since the substats even at their lowest rolls are still useable.

[@DrDoggo-lt5tx]

I need 10 attempt in tacet suppression to make my carlotta "decent" while I farm for 2 entire patch to make my Mavuika "decent". 😂 just compare the number tho.

[@mirokas-w6z]

Hell no, it took me 6 months to build my yoimiya for her to get good stats while my raiden barely got good stats from it. That system is absolutely horrendous and i much rather have the system in wuwa. May not be perfect but infinitely better than whatever the fuck genshin/hsr has.