A libertarian take on health care

[@kmg501]

. Just a heads up to small government people and libertarians, expect to get your comments voted down a lot here. Real News has a large socialist following who are the polar opposite of libertarians. I strongly suggest going to options and enabling all comments for visibility so that you don't miss anything. .

[@zthustra]

I have called my self a libertarian all of my life but I find myself really struggling to accept the arguments. Like this guy saying that Medicare would politicize payment for some procedures. But ignoring how private insurance companies decline payment for purely profitabitily reasons. Wouldn't you like to be able to turn to a representative or omsbudsman when Medicare decline payment instead of going to court with the insurance company?

[@MassLiberal1]

Nice to hear from a real libertarian. I'm a liberal/progressive but nonetheless I respect other political ideologies when they're intelligently argued for.

[@Champraves311]

The problem with the Massachusetts system was that it wasn't even a publicly provided Health Care system. It was just a system that attempted to push Its citizens into private insurance monopolies that were slightly more regulated. There was no competition, people did not have a choice, and the prices went up while quality went down. Massachusetts plan keeps being attacked by the right as an example of a failed public plan; but that wasn't the case. I wish Jay pointed this out.

[@Capitalocracy]

one thing you may not be taking into account is the fact that there's actually a lot of public funding behind some medical/pharmaceutical innovation, and the corporations get to name their price with no competition anyway, and even claim they have to make the price high to pay for the research, even when it was paid for by public funds. Especially with rare diseases, there's not enough consumer money to make some new drugs profitable and public funding is necessary, but it should lead to access.

[@sabiki74]

Paul Jay is definitely one of the sharpest knives in the drawer. Keep up the good work.

[@poorkidd]

So when I get pulled over will the new line be DL, registration, insurence, and health care papers please?

[@whiff1962]

Regulation has been the reason for the breakdown in the American healthcare system, and the incredible increase in costs as reflected in household income. The only kind of regulation that physicians would need is from the medical school that issues the medical diploma, and perhaps, those medical professional organizations for the respective medical specialties. Any other regulation, as in the bureaucratic-administrative kind has, in the main, been more bane than boon for individual consumers.

[@SandfordSmythe]

We would hope that all providers are honest. I don't see how "no regulation" deals with the money grubbers.

[@richardburt9812]

It was not a job for twenty years. It was a job for life. Those jobs disappeared during my father's lifetime (he noticed it in the 1970s.) He did have a job for life, getting promotions and rising in management.

[@uche007us]

How exactly is he a faux libertarian? is it because he said the french system is batter and cheaper while delivering a higher overall quality than what we have in this country? or that he continues to say that he wouldn't be satisfied with the french in america in place of a complete free market one. That should be shocking to anyone paying attention. Read more of the mans writings beforeu start calling him a faux libertarian.

[@peerenboom77]

Paul, you did great here!

[@jonnyhan]

Try India. Many Indians don't understand the concept of health insurance just like Americans cannot imagine healthcare without insurance. Because of not going for insurance, healthcare is pretty cheap in India and every income group has a medical institution they can find affordable. Of course quality decreases with decrease in affordability, but I know a lot of Americans who are denied insurance that would love to get some help from those Indian hospitals for just a handful of bucks they can make within hours. I fail to understand why India is not brought up more as somewhat a libertarian solution for free market healthcare. Because Indian healthcare is as free market as any country can get. And because there are no health insurances for majority, people are responsible. Of course there is some corruption over there too, particularly in the form of kickbacks from Pharma companies. But which system is perfect?

[@al2i]

I don't want to live on an island, but rather, in a society of sovereign individuals that respects my right to choose the health care I feel best for me. Apparently, because I've used a road somewhere, you feel I have no rights at all, and even under my own skin, I am subject to your rule.

[@mymojorisin]

Good interview Paul, you kept him honest when he tried to bend the truth.

[@Jordan-tq2jc]

Watching this in 2023… Canadian Healthcare: Have you considered assisted death as an alternative option to your healthcare? ** All systems of healthcare obviously still have their issues today. But it was interesting listening to this from 13 years ago.

[@ejucatedhorse42]

excellent debate.

[@dickhamilton3517]

all very well, but you can't exactly shop around if you live in a small community where there is one choice of doctor, and the next available one is 50 miles away (or less)

[@oldhacks]

2:40 they pay. and they get EVERY penny BACK in a tax return. 4:00 WE CAN'T AFFORD IT- BECAUSE - THE MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX ; Why'd he leave that nugget of truth out?

[@blingbling65943]

@Shalek he's one of those libertarians who doesn't ignore the reality of the world he lives in.

[@gina7177]

@SpeakUpFightBack I agree with you the discussion they are having is selling public option (if I understand them correctly) half way through this. I agree with the Libertarian stance, get the insurance co.'s out and get your employer out and the cost will come down making it affordable. I think we should go doctor direct and they should post their fees and one could shop around as with most goods and services.

[@mjvmusic]

Instead of trying to change us into a system where restructuring would be pretty difficult, why don't we take out some of the disruptive laws that we have in place? The only reason we don't have free-market forces working right now is because they aren't allowed to.

[@al2i]

I am more convinced than ever that no matter what is actually done to "improve" health care, it will only get worse as a result, and as in the past, "freedom" will be blamed and the need for yet more rules will be proposed. It is a death spiral like all of the others, but this time it will probably mean that I actually do die in the arms of the State at my end.

[@sinekonata]

No I don't think you should think that way, here's another: if a large part of the population's demand isn't met (since corporations wouldn't do the job) that same people can ask for a research organization to be founded instead of relying on the greed of some people to sell you what they research. Same applies for (public) transportation, it is now underdeveloped in many countries but the more cars (which are private) are banned/taxed, the bigger the first grows...

[@sinekonata]

I live in Belgium and as I'm student, I don't have to pay my doctors, anyone gets nice cuts for the indispensable medicine, and people only have to pay for a maximum amount (in relation with their income) for operation/medicine. I pay like 7€/month and I know if I get cancer tomorrow, I'll be taken care of, I'll be able to afford anything despite my 700€ income...

[@DeviantincTV]

Exactly! Plus the whole patents system is seriously flawed and adds unnecessary costs, for instance - stomach ulcers are predominantly caused by bacteria (H. pylori) and can be treated cheaply with antibiotics. However, drug companies often 'combine' these cheap drugs with expensive patented drugs to control stomach acid which add little to overall effectiveness, but lots to the cost. Also, new anti-depressants appear every year, yet there hasn't been a new antibiotic since the 70s - very bad

[@Dragonlungz21]

Interesting back and forth

[@DeviantincTV]

I would dispute [some] of the comments regarding the healthcare here in the UK - while the NHS is FAR too bureaucratic which causes much waste (the bane of our system that none seem to have been able to cure), the real strength is NICE - which acts as a group buyer for pharmaceuticals. We then pay a flat rate of £7.50 ($10) per prescription or an annual payment of £100 ($150) for free scripts all year or nothing if on welfare. This group bargaining power is what keeps costs down.

[@mjvmusic]

Single-payer-apologists will say that there are no "administrative costs" that we pay for in a regular capitalist system, but that's a lie. There are plenty of administrative costs, and if you increase bureaucracy, the costs are inevitably going to be higher. ALL THE WHILE, everything is extremely inefficient. There's no competition, no reason for the gov't to try and make the citizens happy (i.e. money) since its success isn't decided on the whims of the citizens.

[@Raptoreyes]

@judd73 True but this is Paul Jay we are talking about so he will likely find the most wavering libertarian he could find.

[@Raptoreyes]

@SweatLaserXP Add in government debts that are unpaid and the true costs of govt healthcare are staggering compared to any private option. Just because the government uses funny math to compute its own cost does not mean we should be fooled by their a-moral accounting.

[@al2i]

I agree, this is childhood's end for America. America seems destined for a miserably acrimonious old age, with rotting infrastructure and a body of complaints.

[@hiyukenmusic]

On behalf of Libertarians I apologize...because antitrust lawsuits should be the first step in this process because I honestly believe that is all you need to do....no public option nor tax credits just break them up...law makers need to regulate...meaning MAKE REGULAR...and a multibillion dollar horizontal monopoly is not regular!!!!!!!

[@EderikSchneider]

The best Health Care System for America would be a system with unlimited Freedom of Choice for the people. Where they decide for themselves where they get their Health Insurance and Health Care. That could even include a Non Profit Public Option thats run independently of the Federal Government. But where the people decide for themselves where they get their Health Insurance and Health Care. Not Private or Public Monopoly's.

[@al2i]

I am sure it will be for quite a while.

[@SweatLaserXP]

@greyflcn lol, some of the data is so stark that Libertarian types simply ignore it. Tell them that such-and-such gets universal coverage, at nearly half the cost, with better outcomes, and it's in one ear and out the other. Magical thinking about markets always triumphs.

[@mjvmusic]

You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure this one out. If the standard of quality is at a certain level (let's say one that 100k income-earners can afford), and you want the quality to be AT that level, you need to pay for an insurance for all that would be at that level. This is what will make single-payer insurance so expensive. if you want the quality to be shitty, like one that 20k earners can afford, then of course it's going to be cheap.

[@lordblazer]

explain to me how it will drive prices ahem "through the roof."

[@n1njasause]

well, i would go on about how, in this bill, you would still have those choices, and if there was a public option, that would do merely add to those choices. This is all true, but i'm sure you've seen enough fox news show to think differently.

[@restlys]

omg the media can disagree with the person their interviewing? didnt think it was possible !

[@kmg501]

As someone who believes in small government based on constitutional principle, I want the national govt completely out of the medical business. Which unfortunately wasn't talked at all about here with the illegal programs of Medicaid & Medicare. You will never resolve this problem in the US as long as those two exist because they completely interfere with free market ability to offer strong consumer choice via real competition. That said, we need an intelligent exit strategy. .

[@Arkinight]

haha I love how Paul Jay shut him down at the end of the interview.

[@majinspy]

"I would bet all the money I have that it won't pass". Well ain't that a bitch?

[@VolcanicPenguin]

I tried donating 5 bucks but that's before I noticed the US only thing. So yeah, didn't work here in Sweden. But hey, I'll donate when I can! Keep up the great work!

[@sept62007]

Matts basic arguement is that the free market can solve the health care issue. Unfortunately he isn't talking about the free market from everyone's perspective, only his, being his age and wealth status. The free market will deny the old and poor from their system because of profit margins. He hasn't put himself in the shoes of a 60 year old with a low income. That is the essential quality missing from Libertarians and free market thinkers, perspective of the poorest and most vulnerable.

[@sinekonata]

I'm not saying politicians, I'm saying people, just read my comment... Also, in a representative democracy, it's way more insane to leave research into the hands of money than in the hands of politicians that are at least SUPPOSED to "represent" us...

[@judd73]

shoud've interviewed Peter Schiff, Ron Paul, or somebody from Cato Institute.

[@lordblazer]

COme on Paull France created Justice(the band) and Daft Punk..

[@Raptoreyes]

@greyflcn Actually private mutual aid societies existed before the welfare state perverted basic human impulses toward sociability. Adjusted for the limited resource base of the 19th century and the earlyer state of technology, these organizations (all private) did do libertarian healthcare as you put it. It worked very well given the limted tech of the times.

[@Raptoreyes]

@cvcdgftr7676545 Wow you hit the nail on the head Cvcdgftr Most people would not support government run health care if they understood that money does not grow on trees. (or that talented people gravitate to fields with low government involvement). Talented people will not take up medicine. Eventually the high level of competence we expect from doctors will disappear under socialized medicine. Such competence has disappeared already for teachers under a government run system.

[@Ex0dus111]

Yes, but Patent Law also impedes progress. So the two needs to come to balance, and 5 years is a good Balance, 12 years is not...

[@SweatLaserXP]

It seems like Mr. Jay has a better understanding of the health system than the guy he's interviewing.

[@redcloak676]

@kmg501 Let's hope you are right. I have not heard that myself. We desperately need a viable third party at the table.

[@Raptoreyes]

Without a legal monopoly their is no incentive to make that new life saving drug. Life saving drugs are almost always make by young guys that want to get rich. No life saving drug has ever been developed by a selfless martyr. You have to pay the REAL costs of these medicines if you want the benefits.

[@lordblazer]

What? You have never left the US I can tell. Other countries don't train professionals for their society? I know some countries sponsor some citizens to come to the US to study, but a lot of countries are capable of supporting themselves. I think you are an AMerican exceptionalist.

[@ericpmoss]

The guest seemed decent enough, but he clearly reasons one way for people he cares about (e.g. his wife who was ill), and a different way for everyone else. That's a terrible mindset to have dominate policy.

[@whippoorwillss]

lets make every thing free!

[@SweatLaserXP]

Well, Mr. Welch kicks things off by boasting how great the health care system is in France, not acknowledging that France has a mixed single payer/private insurance system. Also, he didn't seem to realize that inflation in private insurance is far far worse than it is in Medicare. Libertarian types always seem to assume that governments can't do anything efficiently, an idea the collapses under the mildest scrutiny; perhaps Mr. Welch should learn what the French pay for their health care.

[@DeviantincTV]

@gmfutube Damn straight! insurance of all kinds is a scam and always has been. How many people are conned out of being able to claim due to 'technicalities'? Instead all that money should go into a pool - if you paid in you get treatment. Done.

[@Raptoreyes]

Patent law however is their to give an incentive to spend a fortune and navigate legal issues to make the new drug. Without a few years of monopoly the great inventors and drug companies that fund them, will simply stop making new drugs. Health in old age is expensive and without a fundamental tech breakthrough their is no way to avoid the costs. You can try to cheat reality and it can work for a few years before things are worse then before. Just look at central banking.

[@Raptoreyes]

@sept62007 The poor can be handled with a basic safety net designed for the poorest. It would be inefficient like all government programs but at least it would not try to do any pie in the sky projects like the futile quest to cover everybody. Covering everybody without making governments go bankrupt will have to wait until tech like cheap fusion and mature genetic engineering make the costs manageable. This is in the future. For awhile we are stuck with what we have now.

[@nightpotato]

@micahgee He does complain about the ever increasing military budgets that result in the deaths of thousands. Very regularly. Know a little about the guy before you libel him.

[@observer855]

take a look at how most medical innovation has developed. A huge % based on lab accidents, etc. This is not something the government can direct - gov should fund some research via NIH etc. , private sector should fund its own research. BTW- in practice there really is no such thing as a representitive democracy. Politicians simply represent their own interests.

[@Raptoreyes]

@ack44 Yeah I thought it would be a cold day in hell before they had somebody from Reason TV on. Looks like hell just froze over.

[@observer855]

@sinekonata you think the direction and selection of research should be decided by politicians?!? are you insane?

[@lordblazer]

now listen. You can't sit down and accuse someone of being wrong while proving their point. Yes other nationalities come to the US for a great education in the Universities, but there are Universities, Medical & Professional schools all over the world. And if you look at world rankings yes the Ivy leagues are in the top ten, but you have many schools overseas that is in the top 50. I can name off NUS, HES, UBC's business school for a few examples. A state school like OU doesn't match up.

[@thurstjo1963]

@thurstjo1963 There are types of medicines (i.e. Chinese, Ayurvedic, Homeopathy, etc) of which have been effectively used for thousands of years. These medicines offer treatments for different illnesses (such as cancer) that are alot cheaper and in many cases more effective than conventional treatments. People should be free to choose what the feel is the best and most cost-effective means of treating an illness. In the west, that choice is not available to the public because of "regulation".

[@kmg501]

@HailRasec No, European style libertarianism is not American libertarianism. .

[@thurstjo1963]

@SandCmpbll Don't agree. If you look at the history of the US, especially the latter half of the 19th century, you will see very clearly that companies hate competition. If you need proof, search for this video by Murray Rothbard "The Decline of Laissez Faire" on KZbin. In terms of health care, everyone talks about competition between insurance companies but nobody talks about competition between different forms of medicine. Continuing in next post.

[@porkchopexpress07]

Fail. Once again, an American libertarian offers no real solutions to a serious problem. Does nothing to solve affordability.

[@Raptoreyes]

@sweatLaserXP Mr Jay may have more here and now factoids from this study or that study, but the man he is interviewing has more of an idea of how culture, law and incentives (perverse or otherwise) fit together to produce outcomes. Jay while knowledgeable sees the world as a bunch of separate issues in a box. Unfortunately its a variety of pressures that produce any single outcome. Reporters like soundbites but soundbites make horrible policy. Its wisdom vs information this time.

[@ack44]

@Raptoreyes And it looks like this is gonna be a weekly thing. TRNN are finally opening up, a little. And lol I get three thumbs down for praising diversity of opinion. Would be sad if this damaged TRNN economically lol.

[@MrPerlishells]

Another mainstream view trying to connect to libertarian. Is this a neolibertarian view? In the Philippines many doctors don't accept insurance. The unofficial flat rate fee is 500 pesos or a little less than $10 dollars which is what Americans usually pay for copay. Why pay twice?

[@kmg501]

America is not a socialist nation and it's founding principles do not incorporate socialism. Our functional experiences with socialism here are disastrous. We are not France or Canada and don't want to be. I also do not want to be ruled by corporate interests which is happening now because of bureaucratic collusion with big business. This is not primarily the fault of business, this is the fault of govt because they have the responsibility and power of law to make it stop. .

[@lordblazer]

because you are sitting here and telling me that other countries are just completely incapable of providing an adequate higher education for its populace, and of course I am telling you how idiotic your assumption is. The US is a super power, and yes we are strong in R&D but we aren't the only ones doing R&D XD Maybe if we learned that we could actually utilize the most advance technologies in our everyday infrastructure and society. Like many other countries do :P

[@sinekonata]

So you think the private sector makes research because they're nice and want to help people? Maybe you also think you don't pay research anyways??? Silly you... Think again or differently... And if you can avoid paying research, it's only because your neighbor is paying your part in your place... Research as well ought to be 100% controlled by gov or an international NGO... EDIT: I found out that I pay 9€ not 7...

[@SweatLaserXP]

@greyflcn ha ha! very funny comic strip

[@ack44]

yay more non-socialists on trnn pls kthnx

[@oldhacks]

"the markets will solve it!" umm no. fail. try something else...

[@user-rd5nc1nb9f]

If the market doesnt solve it, it means it isnt compatible with human nature, and therefore wouldnt work well without fuckin up a minority

[@sgthobbes2]

Libertarian my ass lol....

[@joshv89]

Libertarian? Sounds more like a liberal

[@Raptoreyes]

@cvcdgftr7676545 Obama Care has not been around long enough to have these effects YET. It may take as much as 3 generations for socialized medicine to disincentive all the talented folk out of the system. Doctors need high pay or their quality falls to the pay you give them... period. This process of adjustment take a LONG time which makes socialism look great until then.

[@Raptoreyes]

@cvcdgftr7676545 What "studies" commissioned by who? using what methodology? If its a group known for preaching the supremacy of the state then all you have to do is move the goal post about to get the "result" you want. In any case private schools would be better even without a performance edge as government has an incentive to make people ignorant to what freedom really is. Most poor parents vote with their feet to private schools when given vouchers. Reality is better seen that way.