A Look at SuYin and Beifong

[@killnotic]

After years of fandom letting SuYin off the hook while lambasting Lin for her trauma, this video was a breath of fresh air. Thank you, Chuck.

[@Reverse_Hood]

I see more fandom bashing Suyin way more than any true support

[@killnotic]

@@Reverse_Hood To be honest, that sounds wonderful. I wish I could have experienced any SuYin slander. That's how much I dislike her. When I watched during the show's first run and was knee-deep in the fandom, I was one of three voices calling out SuYin and how badly Lin was treated. It was like howling into the wind.

[@dylanthomas385]

I reiterate Nelixes perfect woman

[@IAmTheAce5]

For posterity- portrait of reconciliation 1. I care about the pain you feel 2. You have the right to feel the way you do about it 3. Whether intended or not, I'm the one who hurt you 4. It hurts me knowing I've hurt you 5. I want to be part of helping you heal

[@myriadmediamusings]

From my experience with people I've fallen out with or been hurt by, its number one that often doesnt get followed.

[@bradwolf07]

Chuck's explanation and discussion of Su articulates what I've had trouble expressing myself since this show debuted Suyin. Thank you Chuck.

[@garywillig5143]

Suyin is an example of someone who thinks they've changed just because they've matured. She was a bored, impatient kid who became one of the most patient characters in the franchise as an adult, which is how she was able to build the metal city and the life she currently leads. But she never addressed her actual character problems. She had the patience to wait decades for Lin to make the first move toward reconciliation, but couldn't make that first move herself.

[@dylanthomas385]

Nothing ever her fault 😒

[@anjetto1]

That's a good point. Her weakness never left. She just grew strong in other areas.

[@myriadmediamusings]

This IIRC caused quite the stir between the viewers, with Lin’s contentious attitude, Suyin’s narcissistic benevolence, the isolationist attitude of her city, and the sobering realization that all of this stemmed from the bad parenting of the fan-fave Toph Beifong. Add in what happens in Season 4, the character of Kuvira, and the comic Ruins of the Empire…

[@stryke-jn3kv]

What a fantastic well argued video. I especially like the one screencap chosen to keep coming back to when she's reminicing and is just oozing smugness from every pore.

[@dylanthomas385]

Bam bent

[@dylanthomas385]

I hate those people

[@kradeiz]

One of the best ways I ever saw an attempt at reconciliation happen was with Flame Princess in Adventure Time. She wanted to have a better relationship with her bad father (typical evil king), he was up for it, she asked if he could acknowledge and apologize for what he put her through, he said he wasn’t gonna do that and they should just be happy for how things are now and dismissed her grievances as “drama”, she decided she’s ok without him in her life and moves on. More stories should learn from this.

[@dylanthomas385]

You have I right not to forgive some one you shouldn’t be shamed into to doing it especially if there not really sorry or don’t appreciate what they pout you thraw

[@chrisw207]

You have no idea how close to home this hits with me, thanks for the words for things I've dealt with since childhood,

[@n.j.hanson4267]

3:22 THANK YOU!!! Oh, my gawd! I am so glad someone else sees it, too!

[@killnotic]

Right?

[@dylanthomas385]

Based

[@Thraim.]

The way I see it, SuYin has forgiven herself, which is admittedly a necessary step for a real change of character. But, she isn't asking for forgiveness from the people she wronged during her criminal outbursts, she's demanding it. The problem is that she perceives everyone who hasn't forgiven her, as thickheaded bullies who live in the past. In her mind, her current benevolence erases her past misdeeds, but that's not how it works.

[@michaelzemancik9612]

Another thing to note (which may have been addressed and I missed the dialog) is that it doesn't seem like Suyin made any effort to go to Republic City. No, Lin had to come to her city, her place ofnpower, so they could reconcile.

[@ztyran]

I think we see the drawbacks of Suyin's mindset in the next book and the "Ruins of the Empire" comic. Her refusal to help with the chaos in the Earth Kingdom, resulting in Kuvira's rise and her family strife with Baatar Jr show a lack of seeing outside of herself. TV Tropes has a term for her behavior: Never My Fault.

[@animalia5554]

I tend to ping pong between that and Everything Is My Fault

[@Talisguy]

I'd say it also shows at least some awareness of her flaws. Note her reasoning for turning down the authority to reunite the Earth Kingdom - she doesn't want to become a dictator. She is aware, on some level, that she's a very flawed person, and she doesn't trust herself to use this power responsibly. ...She was probably right. Part of me wishes she had, because Suyin being the villain of Book 4 would have been an amazing payoff for her carefully established fatal flaws.

[@dylanthomas385]

Ya but didn’t really offer any alternative to that problem either I don’t want to be a dictator not e en temporary so I’m just going to let the country bern while I stay save in my perfect little kingdom I’m the center and have complete control of you now like a dictator thaw I do think being forced to apologize did give her a small look at her own flaws not enough to want to Chang but aware of them

[@tylergregoire1763]

Between this and that one video from last year, I’m glad people are more readily coming to Beifong’s defense in this argument. She really got a raw deal.

[@G1ingy]

What's that one video from last year?

[@tylergregoire1763]

Smarty Pants’ Beifong video.

[@hariman7727]

It helps that more and more people are understanding what narcissists are and how narcissists twist everything to be about them, and how narcissists twist everything so that they are always either in the right, or they're the victim... even if they just finished physically, emotionally, and psychologically abusing someone.

[@dylanthomas385]

Ya I never really appreciated baythoung or reallyized how badly kora treats her till after this video

[@wildste]

This was a really impressive analysis. Seriously, well done

[@dylanthomas385]

I really want to see a deep dive on nelix and flox

[@hartthorn]

I find this whole dynamic quite intriguing because it's also just so... entirely believable. Toph's parenting decisions can easily flow out from everything we know about her. Swinging the pendulum too far in the opposing direction from her own parent's control. I never really saw her as viewing her policing career as ASPIRATIONAL, but more of a "This job needs doing, and I trust no one else to do this job" kind of way at the beginning. But by the time of Suyin's "incident", the systems have been put in place and she's not as needed to "captain" this ship. Lynn's misunderstanding of her mother, seeing her sense of justice and take no shit attitude but missing her deep love of life and her need to forge her own path. She tried to make herself into someone JUST LIKE Toph but missed the point. But she's the first child. She's got to live up to her LEGENDARY mother's name! (I'm also partial to the fan theory that Lynn's dad is Sokka and it's from a short tryst even tho Sokka was with Suki, hence why Toph just never wanted to reveal the dad's identity. But Lynn is also keen enough to have suspicions and smart enough to work out the math to at least have an IDEA who it might be. Which would just double her legacy weight.) And Suyin is both nepo-baby AND youngest child syndrome on overdrive. But I will say they could have done ONE thing to improve her part of this story: make it clear her "friends" were ditching her after the crash. Or some other element of her friends not REALLY caring or just seeing Suyin as a path TO something. Because I think that would be the final key to unlock what's going on with her. It's not JUST entitlement, but also a version of "Lottery Winner's Curse". She is also constantly worried about if people are trying to use her/her status/her wealth but not "actually" caring. It's something you see in a lot of people, and it can be its own kind of tragic. But it also quite frequently leads to the exact kind of insular circles as we see here. With all of that "benevolent narcissism" we see on grand display. By no means excuses it, but feel missing that all so common root cause makes her appear unfairly malignant. Like, EVERY Beifong showed some serious maladaptive coping mechanisms here. Lynn's are more aggressive and eye catching, which is what gets her painted as the bad guy. But feel there's also a truth to the idea that none of them are being irrational in their actions from THEIR perspective.

[@MrDj232]

I disagree that it's believable. Toph's parents were a lot like SuYin. They demanded control and treated Toph like a porcelain doll. Even after Toph proved she could protect herself and expressed her own desires they refused to listen. Yes, Toph wouldn't be as controlling as her own parents. But she's never been so mission oriented that she ignores the people in her life. She's also learned from Katara how important that nurturing/protecting side of motherhood is. She would never give her kids so much freedom that they feel abandoned.

[@hartthorn]

@@MrDj232 Eh, there's a difference between Toph's parents and their hard control and Suyin and her soft control. And that difference is critical. And Toph didn't abandon them, she just refused to demand things of them. Doesn't necessarily change how it FELT to them, but that's the miracle of parenthood. That's part of why I think she never intervened with Lynn as well! Toph COULD have talked to her about making sure she's choosing the life she truly wants and not just trying to copy hers. But that would be meddling. She still nurtured them, but in Toph's way. We saw her protecting them, but it was still in Toph's way. And just like we saw with Aang, and his imperfect fatherhood, it doesn't have to be malicious it can just be clumsy.

[@dylanthomas385]

No sui is wrong and being cruel her baythong is undisputibly the victim of both sui and toff

[@brandonlyon730]

You do realize that making Sokka Lin’s dad would’ve made her and Tenzin 1st cousins right?

[@dylanthomas385]

@@brandonlyon730 that would have been ocward

[@samlynn1652]

I think your right and this was my view of her from when I first saw the series.

[@SpartanSniper3]

I've really disliked Su as a person for a long time but never heard it put this articulately before.

[@dylanthomas385]

No one point complex filling into sadifing and easy to understand world like Sfdebry

[@dylanthomas385]

And the way she gaslight everyone to turn against her sister was horrible but it also gives me a hole new perspective on bayfung not only helping understand why she is the person she is but also the fact that she could take all this abuse from both yin toff and kora but still be the bigger person and pout it behind her for her duty and the good of her family she is a fare more noble character then I ever realized noune of them deserve her expect maby opple

[@KainGerc]

if we only had an empathetic Avatar to understand and help resolve this familial conflict.

[@dylanthomas385]

But no they got Kora

[@Wilahelm2]

Wonderful analysis of Su. I remember when these episode first aired there were a lot of people who did not(and still don't) like Su and were on Lin's side of the argument but it was never articulated so well. Su is the poster child for an out of touch ivory tower elitist. She spews all the right progressive buzz words to make you think she's enlightened and wise but it just covers up a person who is selfish and takes no responsibility for her actions. In many ways Su took on a lot of Toph's negative traits but very few of her positive ones.

[@aceshighdueceslow]

she's no different than Alixus, from the DS9 episode Paradise, who sabotaged all the Federation equipment in the colony she was in. She had the opportunity to be a tyrant, and she took it. She used technology to fuck over everyone else in the colony, she had dissidents tortured, effectively murdered some colonists by not allowing the use of modern medicine on a planet none of them were originally from, oh and she gaslit everyone into thinking that being subsistence, renaissance-level farmers was "better" and more fulfilling. Su has that natural charisma score and magnetism to go with it that she can convince the majority of people to follow her and do what she says. It doesn't work on everyone, hence why she and Lin are always at odds. Lin is one of the few people that can see past all her bullshit and smokescreens, and she's got the (literal) scars to prove what happens when the queen bee is upset. All that to say that "ivory tower" has nothing to do with how Su operates. She's the centre of attention, and anyone that tries to take that away is now public enemy #1

[@dylanthomas385]

No those all went to baythoung

[@Catalyst375]

A chef's kiss to you, this is a wonderful analysis of the relationship between Su Yin and Lin Beifong. Even putting a name to what is going on with SuYin, though there is a lot of discussion out there about the concept of the "Benevolent Narcissist", because it is on point.

[@dylanthomas385]

Benevolent Narcissistim what a wonderful frays

[@Catalyst375]

@@dylanthomas385 Not when you use it as a cudgel to rant about every character you just happen to hate, at which point it loses all meaning.

[@dylanthomas385]

Now I think I’m stay pretty true to the decision and I hate them because they reminded me of su

[@Catalyst375]

@@dylanthomas385 No, not with the way you drastically misrepresented Lilith's character. You just found a new term to latch onto to excuse your irrational dislike of certain characters.

[@dylanthomas385]

I’m sorry you disagree but I still think Lilith was let of way to easily for all the years of harm she did and thaw I acnolage that she did improve as a person the fact the she emidetaly starts flaunting her intalletal superiority and completans how unfair it is her mother spends time trying to to cure the cure she put on her sister instead instead of paying attention to rather dropping everything to help her mother in her search shows she just wants the situation resolved because it’s interfering with her life and what she wants not that she fills any guilt or empathy for all the people she hurt in the procute of her own ambitions. Ad thinks everyone should just get over it and move on like she has. You now just like su. She never even apologized to luz for trying to kill her twice. If you think I’m being unfair or that her good deeds urn her more leeway then I’m giving I could agree to disagree or ignolage I’ve now I can be kinda vindictive some times but so fare you have not made one facial argument or pointed out one think I’ve said that’s wrong. If one person had ever just called her out or if she’d ever just said I’m sorry or should any sine that she felt guilty for all the pain she’s coused I think I could have forgiven her. There are actually lots of fix it fan fix where she does show reget and humility that I think she was rather good in but in my option the mother episode completely ruined her redemption arc we see flash back after flash back of all the pain and suffering her selfishness coused her family and her respons I’m sad there not giving me more attention I’m sorry but that is narcissism it’s is clearest purest form. I’m not saying she’s a villain she does eventually join the heroes and help save the world thaw not till after her own interest because intertwined with heta that’s why I added the benovent she is saving lives and doing good deeds but that doesn’t just magically make the narcissism go away. And I’m sorry but I see a lout of sui in her

[@MrDj232]

Su Yin is Big Mom? That's not a parallel I would have expected, but I can definitely see it.

[@Catalyst375]

I wasn't expecting to hear that comparison, though with Big Mom you can remove the "Benevolent" part.

[@superdoctor14]

For a moment at the start I was like. Oh he's talking of the emperor of mankind.

[@stryke-jn3kv]

Narcissist definitely, benevolent not so much

[@dylanthomas385]

Thaws word do kinda describe the empire I still take him over sui thaw

[@brandonlyon730]

Would be fun to see him talk about something Warhammer related.

[@stryke-jn3kv]

@@brandonlyon730 Infinite and the Divine would be awesome as it's reasonably newbie friendly, covers many different elements of the setting, and it helps it's very good. Is a book though so that's quite the effort investment. Given he likes uk genre sitcoms like Red Dwarf Cain could be good for him, but again books, so I guess could go for the standard youtuber react fodder that is the Astartes fan animation

[@DianaGohan]

You know this also explains her attitude perfectly for why she didn't accept the responsibility as the one to clean up the ruins of the Earth Kingdom after the Earth Queen died; because she knew that was a situation, she WOULDN'T be able to maintain total control over without making enemies or getting into fights with those who'd be against her. It's fine if it's villains and obvious wicked people who can just be taken out but a literal entire nation falling apart all fighting amongst themselves and having to also to answer to a ruling status you don't really agree with at all? Yeah that conflicted against Su's view points so despite everyone begging her to take that role she wouldn't not because of feeling it would corrupt her but just not wanting to have to step up to that level. Like that totally makes that motivation work may more and does make me wish that was addressed more in the 4th book but yeah totally solid read on her with these episodes Chuck.

[@dylanthomas385]

Like he said her weird choices make a lot more sense

[@1senhart]

Well this came at a fun time in my life. Insightful

[@w1q2e3r4t5]

A really fun look at the complexity in the situation. The "what if?" question at the start with the king was really cool to think about as well, because every little bit of context really DOES change how it feels.

[@dylanthomas385]

Ya but you really should feed people’s little bits of contex5 at a time really better to just get everything lade out to start with

[@Jalu3]

👏 A great video essay Well worth the time to listen

[@jamesabernethy7896]

I loved ATLA but struggled to get started with Korra, ATLA had great characters and this shows me what I have been missing. Amazing character breakdown.

[@shahassxs]

I never look more in to there relationship but your right. I was never on suyin side but this does make me think back to tramas in my life and how those were ended.

[@kradeiz]

Wait until you get to Toph’s episode with Lin next season, Chuck. Their relationship isn’t much better.

[@dylanthomas385]

I think we established that here she bladed Lin for sui scaring her face

[@kradeiz]

@@dylanthomas385 Yeah I really don’t like what they did with Toph in this show.

[@dylanthomas385]

Aaa maybe but I have no problem believing it’s the same character a like Toph to but good people don’t inherently make good parents and I really don’t think Toph would be one especially as a single parent

[@kradeiz]

@@dylanthomas385 I just find it depressing to see one of my favourite characters, who suffered from bad parents, grow up to be a bad parent herself. And yes I know that happens in real life, but what also happens is people breaking the cycle they grew up with and doing their best to ensure their kids are properly loved.

[@dylanthomas385]

Well that’s said but that’s also how it normally works a person raises by abusive parents has no frame of reference to how to be a good parents add on the fact she was a single parent bussiy being the head off police the metal bending school and all of tophs own issues and I think this was kinda the only realistic outcome not help one of the girls was a borderline child scoieopath.

[@dylanthomas385]

Your so right when I watch that has a kid it all completely went over my had I mean I did feel bad for baponeg her mom and her sister clearly treated her like shit and I felt like I’d be pissed off has hell in her situation but the truth about su I just thaw she had a stick up her but and didn’t want to be first to apologize me and my brother could be like that when we where young but otherwise did really change and had a point. the true scope of what a narcissist she was was just be owned what I was capable of comprehending ate the time you have completely recontextulized this character and I can never watch this story the same way again 😮

[@dylanthomas385]

Actually now that I think about it she reminds me more or mable pines and star butterfly. They do have loved ones who there willing to protect and help but there love is oultamtly very selfish and controlling they don’t care what they actually want and they will use every trick in the book to keep there “loved” ones where they want. From lies emotional black mail to strait up murder and holding the entire world hostage to keep them selfs the cent of there world with no care in the world what’s best for them

[@hariman7727]

My only disagreement with this video is that Su's narcissism isn't benevolent in the long run, because of things like Opal being stifled. It took having her sister chucking rocks at her in anger and calling her out to get Su to back down a little, and only because NOT doing so would make her look worse. Su IS a villain in my opinion. A minor one, but any narcissist parent is the villain to those around them, because of the damage done unintentionally. I don't say that lightly either. I say it because I know. Also, yes, I consider this an excellent explanation of how one Narcissist character makes EVERYTHING revolve around themselves.

[@aceshighdueceslow]

not to mention how fucked up the treatment of Kuvira was when she first came to Su's family. I mean, I'm not saying that everything else they tried to do to redeem Kuvira in Ruins of the Empire was good, but it sure shed more light on how Su's actions had huge ripples over the years

[@IAmTheAce5]

Just as an aside, the beginning example of a benevolent king, who might, could, or have to hurt/exploit certain others, in degrees, to help their own people- the lesson I take from it is thus. Never assume human morality to a system of power meant to serve sovereignty- humanity can and will be held at a distant second priority. It's like being a good person while upholding or abiding an anti-human institution for its power i.e. slavery. You may be a good person, but that wouldn't really count for much where the institution is concerned.

[@takeru3159]

I know you share the philosophy with me that the right thing to do isn't always the moral thing to do so I enjoyed your hypothetical at the beginning. Though my opinion of the king worsened with each detail you added, his actions didn't become reprehensible until you mentioned he felt no guilt for how the man was affected by the king's decisions. If you do something immoral for the right reasons, it is something that should rip your soul apart. You did it with the knowledge that you will never get a good nights sleep again, that you could never respect yourself again, that you will spend the rest of your life asking if there wasn't something you missed that could have made it all better, that by doing this action you are effectively damning yourself to an eternity in hell or whatever afterlife equivalent you believe in. Without that, you clearly don't care about how those actions affect other people, but how those actions reflect upon you. And you already have a good excuse on hand to make sure you don't look bad for committing such heinous crimes.

[@dylanthomas385]

Like he said in swtor you must expect that what your doing is wrong but that your doing it anyway so some on else doesn’t hafe to. If you try to justify it has right or put the blame on someone else that’s the difference between grey and dark

[@allanolley4874]

This reminds me of Charles Foster Kane in Citizen Kane, wanting everyone to love him and trying to shower them with gifts to get them to do it, but on his terms. Thus even his apparently selfless political and journalistic goals are self serving, although he was a bit more of a domineering tyrant also.

[@dylanthomas385]

This is kinda out of no where but I’d really like to see a series deep dive into Nelixe and flock if anyone can do it it’s you

[@dylanthomas385]

Nelixes perfected woman

[@katherinealvarez9216]

1:14 why the heck am I thinking about Navier from The Remarried Empress?

[@Excalibur01]

I gotta admit, as a naive viewer...I was completely gaslit by the show to be on SuYin's side. That was years ago when the season first aired and I didn't see past what was presented. Now, holy shit was I completely wrong about SuYin. Sure, she made a better life and not something of her criminal whims. Seriously, she's from a rich family. There's no reason to steal or be in crime other than she's bored and that's the worse kind of criminal. Thrills. In terms of luck, she hit the jackpot of an ending. No need to change her actual personality. She gain wealth, mothered many children, meaning she didn't waste her youth in crime and turned into a wasted body like many women do when "running away from the family". She could have ended up dead in the street but she didn't suddenly become a better person an recognized her life was in the wrong direction. She changed her life goals like she changed clothes and now wears this almost smug look that she "built" something. "made something of herself", but it's really a lie. The physical things are real, the good she's done are real and it isn't like she's a truly bad parent but...the problem also is "parent". We never really see the father much. He was there, introduced and really...just existed but we actually had ZERO input from him. No behind closed doors about his thoughts on Lin or SuYin's past. It's almost like he exists...to simply exists and that's also another tell. SuYin is the one in control of everyone.

[@dylanthomas385]

Same her I always felt for lins she got hurt and everyone gang up on her but I still really swolled sui bull shit hook 🪝 line and sinker and thought they were both at fault na suis just a b on the hero’s side but still a bent

[@dylanthomas385]

Just like varric was a villians awesome but still a villian still reather work with him thaw

[@Dave175]

Did you mean Suyin and LIN?

[@dylanthomas385]

She reminds me of amity and Lilith from owl house they do try to improve and become better people but do so while completely rejecting any responsibility for there past act just blaming there bad deeds on other or just riding it off in the past and reject any concept of personal responsibility there changing but it’s to get a better result for them not for the people they wronged I’ll still take them both over mable 🤬thaw

[@MrDj232]

Amity at least has the excuse that she's a child and her mother is clearly a very skilled manipulator.

[@dylanthomas385]

I now but she still traw all the responsibility on her mother and denies all her own choices her mother made her stop being free with willo that was not her fault her mother did make her follow her around for years bulling and belittling her her mother didn’t make her tray to force loose out of magi’s or try to crush her with an abomination her mother did lobotomice willow just causes and have to be force kicking and screaming to help fix it yet when willow finally has enough and tell her to shove it she points to her parents and grows all the blame on them. She never apologized or admits fault. I’m not say she’s a bad person I’m not saying she didn’t try to atown after being forced to confront the pain she was causing that the constant acts of kindness from the person she round off and herast didn’t change her im say she’s a hell of a lot better then lith who not only ruined her sister life joined a Facist rigiem for power and personal gain and then on top of all she had the gall to complain about her mother not giving her more attention because she was try to cure the curse she pout on her sister and take care of the husband she blinded. And there both better them Mable how was will to bring about dooms day to restablish control over her brother or Star who committed the largest genoside in history and tried to murder Jackie. I’m sure as hell not say she and luzz weren’t a cut couple they definitely where say what ever good quality she might have she is weak and a moral coward

[@kradeiz]

I’m inclined to be somewhat forgiving of Amity (though her reconciliation with Willow was definitely rushed) but Lilith got off WAY too easy for pretty much ruining her sister’s life.

[@dylanthomas385]

Ya despite what it might sound like I don’t hate amity but I do hate lithe I think 🤔 because there both in the same show I comflate my hatred for her lithe with her. I don’t think amity is a bad person but she does have the very real character flow of being a moral coward who latches on to more confident people to make her choices for her when we first see her she’s latched onto boscha's witch makes her behave baby after that almost gets her killed she lackes onto luzz who saved her and that makes her good 😊. As said her that does not invalidate the good she does or there relationships just part of a flawed but beautiful multi fastid character.

[@dylanthomas385]

Lilith Star and Mable can all burn 🔥 in hell thaw