A Match Made in Hell - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Super #17 Arc Part 2

After a brief tournament interlude, Dragon Ball Dissection digs into the storyline proper of Super #17. It's, uh, it sure is a thing that happened. Ever wondered how building a copy of #17 can link Earth and Hell? Well, so do I!
Help support the channel:
/ mistarefusion

[@KingOfDarknessAndEvil]

Honestly that intro is perfect. Toriyama would want us to have a light heart and a smile

[@MiltonGagliardi]

This arc gave us Goku and 18 fighting together, and that's literally the only part of it I actually care about and somewhat remember.

[@spartanq7781]

I like Vegeta calling earth home....that's all I got.

[@KaiserMattTygore927]

This 100% that's the only credit i'll ever give this dogshit arc.

[@jpranevich]

What!? A portal to hell and you don't even mention Fusion Reborn? Blasphemy!

[@PrimeroJinJusuke]

Probably because Janemba made it logical enough.

[@joshualowe959]

It is true that the Fusion Reborn movie & the Super 17 GT arc both did the concept of villains resurrected from hell & a fused character appearing after all that.

[@orbboom6119]

Lol

[@TheParappa]

There are literally only two little things I like about this arc: 1) Super 17s design 2) the short Nappa-Vegeta reunion

[@Fuchsfeuer]

big true^^ I would also say the fact that C18 had a bigger role is an advantage of this arc too

[@ScherrHrenner]

I like the idea of the short Nappa-Vegeta reunion, but the execution is laughable with Nappa only communicating in growls.

[@franciscoarzapalozapata4610]

​@@ScherrHrenner Also Nappa would not try to attack Vegeta, he would try to scape or talk to him

[@nellewoodruff6337]

I agree with all of the above but also a couple more. 3) Goku riding the Free-enzan like nimbus 4) Trunks getting jumped by an android. I'd hate the fact that he got jobbed if it weren't for how hilarious the coincidence is. It's his canon even i suppose. "Different timeline, same results, eh best buddy's son?"

[@kevinlee9929]

​@@ScherrHrenner Agreed. There was so much left on the table from the Vegeta Nappa reunion (From a dialogue perspective).

[@JustAPrinnyDood]

To be honest Piccolo being able to make a portal to Hell sounds a lot more believable than 17 doing it.

[@spartanq7781]

Yes but why wouldn't he who was once God and the current God not know its a possibility? Remember they just copy the 17s. It would (hardly but still) make more sense if it was them learning from Piccolo and Dende (such a terrible God.)

[@mitchfletcher2386]

How fitting, since Toonami Aftermath is running the entirety of GT for their annual April Fools' Day marathon.

[@mg682]

I never heard of that. Thanks for putting me on!

[@mitchfletcher2386]

​@@mg682You're welcome!

[@mechajay3358]

There's a limit when you have to suspend your disbelief and invoke the "Voodoo Shark."

[@sndark6241]

To be slightly pedantic, the “trend of Anime switching out its theme song” isn’t something that started in the 90’ really, it’s _always_ been there. Obviously not without exceptions and around the 90’ it did become more common (And by the 2000’ it was almost a standard), but even as early as Urusei Yatsura in the 80’ the opening got swapped out every so often and the ending theme even more so. Toei was basically the last big holdout for rarely doing that, and even then Sailor Moon did at least swap out the ED at least once per season.

[@richborn6700]

I appreciate that Yu Yu Hakusho kept the same intro but changed the imagery. Though their several ending songs are timeless classics

[@iug5672]

I think the point is that it switched more often, too often. Urusei Yatsura changed its theme song for the first time on episode 77, DBZ changed it on episode 195. While GT has less than 70 eps, 2 intros and 4 ending songs. I don't think it's a bad thing per say, I like having a lot of openings to choose from. But there is def a trend where animes get new openings way more often nowadays.

[@marxist-leninist-protagonist]

@@richborn6700 Huh. Interesting that Hunter x Hunter 2011 works the same way. Wonder if it has any connection

[@marxist-leninist-protagonist]

I wonder what's the profit the companies get from that. Some sort of deal with the record label and the animation studio? It can't be for art, because, you know, capitalism. There has to be a reason.

[@mielthesquid6536]

@@marxist-leninist-protagonist pretty simple, it can attract new people, as if it is "another show".

[@MistareFusion]

Feel free to tell me in which DBD I explained Voodoo Shark before now! 😀

[@KingOfDarknessAndEvil]

Voodoo shark voodoo doo doo doo doo

[@Gardetrace]

You first mentioned it in The Saiyan Arc Part 2 in regards to Goku's explanation for why he didn't simply grab Raditz' tail again.

[@spartanq7781]

Way back in the Cell arc part 3. It was about how Goku acted during the Raditz fight.

[@cameronfry5362]

Do you read the official digital coloring manga of the dragon ball series

[@cameronfry5362]

?

[@zazampow9657]

All your videos are words of brilliance bro.

[@MistareFusion]

Thank you so much!

[@bearmanscave3289]

"I THINK MY BRAIN JUST BROKE. HOW DOES BUILDING A CYBORG LINK HELL AND EARTH?!" xD Been laughing this entire episode. I love a good rant xD Also RIP Toriyama. No doubt his legacy will continue to live on for the rest of our lives

[@matt0044]

I feel GT shows the difference between an author writing by the seat of his pants and a whole production team trying to.

[@spartanq7781]

Astutely put.🎉

[@genyakozlov1316]

No disrespect to Toryama, but this is still better than the Cell arc. For one, it's short.

[@spartanq7781]

@@genyakozlov1316 Woah there such takes are what riots are started over. The Cell arc is extremely overrated but what you said just wrong.

[@marxist-leninist-protagonist]

I guess the problem is that said production team is trying to emulate said author... it's not a bunch of creatives creating something new, they have to create something new that feels like someone else's vision... Just like emulating a PS3 takes more processing power than an actual PS3. Emulating someone else's creative style is more taxing and limiting.

[@matt0044]

I mean, the Cell saga was divided into chunks with Trunks vs Freeza, the Androids, Imperfect Cell and the Cell Games. There were clear sections of the saga. Something the Freeza Saga lacked and, admittedly, lead to a sense of bloat. One the Anime saw and said, “Hold my Hetap…”

[@ThelronFjord]

14:33 Hell Fighter 17 is really Appule converted into a Machine Mutant. I solved it!

[@rodrigomarcondes5857]

12:36 this is my favorite scene in this episode. Dr Gero and Dr Mu have a toast with hell champagne, it's straight up funny

[@bgvo4373]

The dub made this worse, if you can believe that. They pretended that number 17 was left dead after the Cell arc, and Trunks states that number 17 must’ve been revived (why would this trunks even know who he is?).

[@mechajay3358]

Yeah, until Super happended, you wouldn't think the main Trunks would've even met 17

[@androidsenpai1462]

…Perhaps that last sentence is why they wrote the line of Trunks thinking 17 was revived somehow. He doesn’t know dick about him.

[@cyberninjazero5659]

This arc would be a lot better if they just said that timelines have the same after life and that He'll Fighter 17 was just Future 17 who just met his fate because chronologically the main timeline reached the point where Future Trunks got back to him (We should've also had Hell Fighter 18 from this making a Super 18)

[@gustyko8668]

I'm surprised that you didn't question "why is Dr. Myuu in hell in the first place?!" as far as we know, he's not even a living thing, he's a robot.... unless we assume he's actually a cyborg, or that he was based on one the tsufuru scientists who created Baby or something....

[@TheAzulmagia]

Hell in Toei's continuity is weird. You could surmise that a number of entities like Android 19, who is fully a robot, or even something like Cell, who isn't a naturally occurring lifeform, might not necessarily go to the afterlife.

[@kevinlee9929]

Not to mention that Baby was nowhere to be found. If Myuu could come back. Logic says Baby should have too.

[@gustyko8668]

@@TheAzulmagia for the 100% robots, I suppose that Dr. Gero and Dr. Myuu may have recreated themselves; and in Cell's case, he's a bio-android, so there's that.

[@gustyko8668]

@@kevinlee9929 as for Baby's case, I assume someone in Toei didn't want to use the exact same villain that they literally just defeated..... so maybe that's the reason they went with Dr. Myuu instead (or maaybe he's still burning in the sun, I don't know!!).

[@brandonlyon730]

@@gustyko8668 Yeah shouldn’t Baby technically be in hell as well?

[@spartanq7781]

It feels like forever since your last DBD video on GT. RIP Toriyama.

[@ThelronFjord]

When you got a leader of the free world showing off YOUR autograph after you pass away, you know you've made an impact on the world.

[@kindlingking]

"leader of the free world"?

[@TragicKF]

The premise for Super 17 is bonkers Not even gonna try and cap about that One of the things I have slowly come around to though is the statement about a complete 17 being stronger than Cell. Seems to me that Gero went, “oh shit, I can’t control this kid, let me stop making him stronger and make something else entirely instead” and only then started working on a brand new idea that eventually came to be Cell. After all, as you mentioned, Gero had years to work on the Artificial Humans so I expect some trial and error. But then the issue I can’t wrap my head around is… what was 18 there for then? Was she also supposed to be stronger? GT gives a kinda sorta maybe but maybe not answer to this because the mind-controlled 17 tries to take 18 too which implies maybe Gero and Mu did have long term plans for her but nothing ever comes from this. Glad you mentioned the DB’s causing this whole hell debacle though. Personally in my interpretation, I figured that Gero and Mu were taking advantage of a situation they didn’t themselves fully understand outside of “huh, the barrier is pretty weak this time of year, maybe we can use that” and that it was all serendipitous. Again, that’s me doing the work for the series as I also struggle to believe they had this all planned out at the time.

[@MariaYuri-qo8jy]

How nice of Dr. Gero and Dr. Myu to manufacture a semi-automatic handgun for the new Nr. 17 even though he doesn't use or need it. The gun seems to be was Nr. 17 had on him when he was being turned into a cyborg. Probably because he was a petty criminal but the end of the manga shows him with a rifle so maybe he just likes firearms and/or hunting. Also, why is Nr. 18 visibly aged but 17 not?

[@maximillianomartinez]

Number is usually abbreviated as "No. "

[@nellewoodruff6337]

Me: *Has seen GT at least 3 times.* Also me: *Never once noticed that only 18 aged* 💀

[@MariaYuri-qo8jy]

@@maximillianomartinez Yeah, it is but in germany we say Nr. istead of No. so I guess my german nature took over^^

[@androidsenpai1462]

18 didn’t age…she just changed her hair. She looks basically the same.

[@Redeyblagon]

Don't worry, you're not nitpicking. And you're absolutely right about everything, the Super 17 arc is just THAT stupid. A shame that the arc by itself is so bad, because the ED song for these episodes is absolutely beautiful, as you mentioned.

[@PrivatePikachu1]

I am willing to give some small modicum of credit here: Considering how long Dr. Gero has been studying Goku and his friends/enemies, it's more than likely he's fully aware *of* the Dragon Balls. Considering how major of a presence they have and how hard he was watching them I'd find it hard to believe that he wasn't aware of them whatsoever. Everything else? Ehh...

[@sumeracarnatia6997]

Speaking of Goku and Chi-Chi’s dynamic, I would’ve loved to see how the two handled Goku’s de-aging in regards to their relationship. It doesn’t have to be too dramatic or emotional, just exploring what a regular day is like for the two now.

[@EmeralBookwise]

I've always wondered if maybe at some point when this story was first being developed, the #17 in hell was originally supposed to be the same one Future Trunks killed in his timeline, but then while production had already started, someone decided it wouldn't make sense for the #17 from the future to be in present day hell, and so hastily came up with clone idea instead.

[@UltraKintaro]

I still remember getting the internet during the wait for the Boo Arc to air in the UK and spoiling myself on the entire rest of the series back then. Even at 10 years old, an age where every spoiler for Boo and GT I read sounded like the coolest thing ever, learning about the Super #17 Arc just confused me and had me wondering if multiple websites were lying to me. Maybe it's because #17 is one of those characters who, from my introduction to him to now, I've always felt complete apathy towards. But reading all this crazy stuff about fusions and absorptions, that long-haired Super Saiyan Goku figure the shops were selling while the Cell Game was still airing was a real thing that will actually happen, the Earth being destroyed twice, everyone becoming possessed slaves and the Dragon Balls turning evil. And being told that sometime between all that, "and that guy you don't care about and forgot about the second Cell absorbed him gets to headline an entire story arc and be the next big bad in line" would have me thinking "but why though?" It seemed like such a step back compared to all the other post-Cell stuff I was learning about.

[@mechajay3358]

While I'll admit that Super 17's design is cool, I felt how they handled him in GT was a disservice. Its why I've always appreciated Super for turning him into MVP 17 throughout the Tournament of Power.

[@shiroamakusa8075]

Nice of Dr Gero and Myu to also knit Hell-17 an exact copy of the clothes of Earth-17. From memory no less (and luckily enough Earth-17 was absolutely dedicated to this particular getup so he kept it for over a decade). Who knew that those two brilliant scientists were also expert tailors? And not only that, they somehow figured out how the afterlife works despite having no foreknowledge of the place or any instruments with them to do any research. So Dr Gero is a veritable renaissance man, world-class robotics engineer, genetics expert including xeno-biology, one-of-a-kind AI programmer (with some hiccups) and can also intuitively understand dimensional physics, a field that seems to elude even the very gods as they didn't know about this way to create portals. Why exactly was this guy playing third banana in some two-bit terrorist organisation led by a small-minded idiot? Inventing and patenting that infinite energy source, that's tiny, light-weight, has the energy output of several suns, requires zero maintenance and creates no exhaust alone would set him up for life. I mean, not even the far more advanced aliens of the Frieza Force have anything comparable.

[@spinceiling7442]

This comment made me burst out laughing lol good stuff

[@Theokal3]

Soooo I had heard the basic of the story for this arc and was confused about it so I came here hoping this would answer my question. Somehow I ended up with even more.

[@MistareFusion]

Oh, yeah. It's definitely a story that makes more sense the less you know about it.

[@Aust51989]

The only way they could have “cloned” 17 is probably extracting the DNA from Cell. Like if Cell could multiply himself by creating the Cell Jrs. So it could make sense that he could have made a clone of 17.

[@shiroamakusa8075]

Cell no longer had 17 in him when he died. He regenerated from a lump of flesh, remember? And it's pretty clear Cell didn't want 17 and 18 for their human DNA (as he had already drained so many people) but for their infinite energy sources.

[@Aust51989]

@@shiroamakusa8075 but he also made it clear that his cells did retain the genetic information to help him regain his perfect form after he blew up. So this could make sense.

[@tintor2]

While cute that he finally stays with his family in contrast to Súper, it kinda feels awkward that Goku is still a kid. Rest in peace Toriyama

[@thedothackerkeyblademaster]

I'm about halfway through the video and I had to pause because I'm just realizing that Budokai Tenkaichi lied to me. I never saw the opening parts of the Super 17 arc, just the later parts of it, so I never knew the other 17 was built by Gero and Gero at Home in Hell. When the first Budokai Tenkaichi game covered the Super 17 story (more like breezed through it), it implied that the 17 from Hell was the one from Future Trunks' timeline. At least, that's the take away I got since the game said that the other 17 was sent to Hell when he was defeated, which I assumed to mean that he was the one Future Trunks beat when he went back to his timeline.

[@ShineDark]

I watched DBGT as a kid, and for some reason, I assumed the second #17 in Hell was the soul of the #17 from Future Trunks’ timeline.

[@saiyan4414]

honestly I think that would've worked, and I have no idea why they didn't go that direction.

[@snuffysam]

Nah nah nah, there's a much easier way to get an exact copy of #17. Just punch Cell really hard, twice, then let him blow himself up so he regenerates back to perfect form. Endless supply of androids!

[@Googaliemoogalie]

Where does #17's outfit come from? He doesn't change clothes for a decade? And Hell #17 has the same outfit? How? And why do they look different when they fuse if they look EXACTLY the same as individuals? That always bothered me. Imagine mixing red paint with the same red paint and get green! Why?!

[@spartanq7781]

Super look butt ugly. Mistare Fusion is right Toei designs in GT are not good.

[@Blasckk]

Am I the only one who thinks it's a wasted opportunity that they haven't included Babidi in the "villain creators" team-up? I think it would make it a little more plausible that a Madoshi would know how to escape hell using some sort of arcane magic, at leat it would be better than two random scientists knowing how to do it. Also, with all the nonsense in this episode it makes sense that you didn't have time to mention the other inconsistencies. Like Trunks mentioning that he recognized 17 because he has a Ki similar to 18 (when neither of them emit Ki) or that Kaioh-Sama for some reason recovered his planet and is "living" there when he warns Goku of the situation.

[@MistareFusion]

I literally haven't gotten that far yet!!! =P

[@BagOfMagicFood]

Oh yeah, he got his planet back just in time for Beerus to pay a visit!

[@BlueGuyTube]

Oh to be a fly on the wall during the production of this arc. I like to belive that it wasn't too dissimilar from the Pitch Meeting parody videos, and it ended with something along the line of "You know what, fine, we don't have enough time to think about it anyway, you can start production."

[@giffica]

I have to say, Mistare, it is oddly fitting the timing of your videos, and even how close we are getting to the conclusion of your Dragonball retrospective. There is no right way to say goodbye.

[@nicholassims9837]

How come we never saw King Piccolo's children coming back ?

[@MrGalpartuk]

I'm so happy you mentioned the body part. it always bothered me that no one mention that when talking about otherworld

[@tintor2]

The whole Frieza and Cell in Hell.. the animation...

[@kaialone]

I honestly forgot that's how that whole thing worked The idea that if somehow two identical ppl existed in two realms they could make a portal between worlds is honestly pretty cool- but like you said, how in the world would the doctors know this, and why would it work for the 17s

[@Canaris4]

The doctors know this because they are very smart. And are scientists Being a doctor in a tv show means you know how to do everything.

[@shocksconstant]

@@Canaris4 Hey, Gero didn't get that PHD for nothing!

[@herrschnitzel9606]

I really don't get some people, hearing Lance nitpicking the everlasting fuck out of a series we all love is one of the best things on this platform.

[@kuribo04]

I'm still heartbroken over the Toriyama news. I reread DB again (which I've done countless times, but it had been over two years). Doing it out of order and leaving my favourite, the RR arc, for last. Still seems like it's not real. My heroe is gone...

[@horaciosi]

Blue Velvet is a fantastic song, but Sabitsuita Machinegun de Ima o Uchinukō will always be number 1 for me.

[@shmikex]

I kinda wish they had used Babadi to somehow access the future timeline and pull in Android 17 from the hell over there. Then we could even have Future Trunks come by maybe.

[@DonWeaselYeehawEdition]

I could literally see your face of intense confusion as you were breaking down over the portal to hell 😂 another amazing episode!

[@spartanq7781]

You know its bad when Lance can't even summarize the plot without raging.

[@joshtheryuk]

Even when i was a kid i thought this arc made no freaking sense. Also i have no idea why 17 can ... Mind Control 18 or whatever he does to her. What? Is every twin capable of doing this?

[@zebalak]

Yes

[@LanceThumping]

I only wish that I had seen this video to tell me of Toriyama's passing instead of from people using it as an opportunity to tweet criticism of him.

[@theotakuguy8957]

That's unfortunate to hear since some people on that site are really tactless I remember seeing someone be glad that he was gone due to Lady Red making them really mad Thankfully those kind of people are the minority

[@gustyko8668]

​@@theotakuguy8957 I agree, I'm also one of the first to point out Toriyama's flaws/mistakes, but I do it with respect as any normal fan should.... it's very different to say "ohhh I love Toriyama's works, but I don't like all of his ideas" in contrast to "mehhhh, stypid Toriyama, he ruined my favorite series.... and he's a racist, I'm glad he died!!!!!".

[@kendrakirai]

I'm just gonna point out that the very much Toriyama-made Resurrection F had Freeza keeping his body in Hell - though he was also very much *trapped* and not let to just run wild and cause trouble, so at best that's only a half point.

[@saiyan4414]

take note although all the other villains came back, we never saw Raditz for some reason.

[@spartanq7781]

Raditz is the most important villain that changed everything yet he gets forgotten by them and mocked by the fans. Poor dolt.

[@sonicblitz1884]

If they had Babadi in this setting it'd probably would've made more sense for them wanting revenge in this setting.

[@_ace_defective_]

This dropping (publicly) on April 1st is... quite fitting. Also, RIP Akira Toriyama. o7

[@gavinlucas9761]

Honestly kinda surprised that you chose Blue Velvet as your favorite GT ending theme, even though in my POV it's actually my least favorite out of the 4 ending themes. But I also enjoyed all of the 4 ending themes and I always like it when shows update their openings and endings to show the progression of the story and where it's currently at. Also wow the Super #17 is only 6 episodes long? that's ridiculously short, especially by Dragon Ball standards.

[@joshualowe959]

3:55 When the two doctors met, at first Dr. Myuu was scared of Dr. Gero. And it was surprising that Dr. Gero even knew about Dr Myuu let alone any tuffle.

[@kleinTOD]

The way I rememebered it from my first viewing back then was that they yanked the other 17 from the Future Trunks timeline so they could mash two copies together. Weird how my random childhood headcanon makes more sense than the actual source material.

[@spinceiling7442]

I don't think I've ever disagreed with anything you've said as much as I do with your opinion on anime changing openings and endings. It's by far one of my favourite things about the medium

[@edward18517]

This is actually the first place I ever heard about Mount Paozu being a thing XD on the Buu Saga VHS tapes my dad got with the Cell Games VHS tapes from that'd been subtitled by fans back before those parts were dubbed there were the first episodes of this Saga from GT and I remember them talking about Mount Paozu when the Sons and Briefs are together eating at the start of the Saga.

[@ColeFam]

I remember going to fansites for midis and Blue Velvet was also one of my favorites. Thank you for the rush of nostalgia.

[@fat-gotenks]

Rest in peace the absolute god

[@TheAzulmagia]

It feels kind of weird to make an arc where Hell and Earth connect and brings back a number of bad guys, including a prominent appearance by Frieza where he's defeated in a gag, when that was already done in the Fusion Reborn movie.

[@rodthedigger2902]

Great video!

[@Unknownslenderman]

Blue Velvet mentioned! I'm just glad someone else acknowledges this as the definitive GT ending

[@AlanLiebheart]

Ah the super 17 arc. Easily the worst act in the entire Dragon Ball Franchise to me. Altough I'd be willing to defend the portal to Hell thing with the fact that even in the Buu Saga, Super Buu was already able to open portals.

[@otaking3582]

This definitely feels like a case of "we're too cheap/lazy to design a new character, so we're gonna create a clone of 17 even though it makes zero sense".

[@manjiimortal]

Nice personal eulogy for Toriyama at the start of the video, Mistare, good stuff indeed. The big thing about this arc, which might simply be due to me not remembering the details, and never having bothered researching it, is how they managed to get control over the original #17 in order to make the hell portal opening to work, considering he didn't want to be anyone's lackey. One aspect I do enjoy about this Super #17 thing is, if I remember right, how he's able to absorb energy, the same skill #19 and #20 had, and what could have made them a very interesting concept, had Toriyama kept going that way, rather than abandoning it.

[@spartanq7781]

It is insane how far GT had fallen with just this one episode. The Baby arc had problems but was still good. Then this arc plummets GT so hard. This story feels like it was crammed in there to give more time for the next arc. I thought that even before you mentioned it. It would explain why nonsensical it is and why it was so short.

[@terabytewarrior2019]

Even though this story arc is so short and the premise is a little bonkers, I still like it for the good moments it had and, hey, at least it has more consistently well animated episodes than either of the other 2 GT arcs (at least from what I remember).

[@bgvo4373]

Well animated?! Check out Freeza and Cell’s designs later.

[@terabytewarrior2019]

@@bgvo4373 lol designs looking different =/= bad animation

[@Thisdude850]

Well Super 17 vs Super saiyan Goku is the most hand to hand combat GT fight for what its worth.

[@roronoapedro]

I can't believe Mistake made a whole video about this clearly fake saga that never happened. Can you imagine if 17 actually had a clone and fused with him to become a buff fuckboy? That's so crazy, this is the kind of quality I've come to expect from this channel. He even commissioned fake footage!

[@Hydrogue]

I came to assume that the portal between Hell and Earth is established by the two 17s because they both have identical ki. It's like a weird glitch in reality with one person being in two different locations, so the process of them syncing their ki mucks up the natural order. No such logic is inferred or implied in the show itself, obviously. It's all nonsense. I just remember trying to rationalise the nonsense by connecting dots that the writers themselves never cared about. And even my suggestion buckles once you recall that the numbered Artificial Humans don't have ki.

[@Jose-se9pu]

Androids have ki?

[@shiroamakusa8075]

The cyborgs don't have KI.

[@mitchfletcher2386]

Chances are they were kinda scraping the bottom of the barrel for plot ideas considering that they had just been renewed for another 20-something episodes. Although, the Shadow Dragons story was hinted at during the conclusion of the Baby Saga.

[@iug5672]

They honestly should've just included Babidi in the villain alliance, would make way more sense for his character to know all this hell portal magic stuff instead of the scientists. They could also just have build a more magic-looking robot to fuse with 17, no reason why it needs to looks like 17 at all. I mean, sure technically Dende and Picollo are very genetically similar but I'd assume it's some other kind of similarity that makes them able to connect through hell and back. Oh well. Also, does it even make sense for Dr.Mu to be there? I always got the impression you'd get to Earth's hell if you died on Earth. I know that is the case in Super's canon but is it really exclusive to that? Like, Mu died in the other side of the galaxy why the hell is he there? Sure some people who died on namek are also there but... well, why are they there?? I'm also confused to why Mu and no.19 even have souls to begin, they are both complete robots, aren't they? Does that mean Major Metallitron is also in hell? that sucks... (edit: just watched further into the video and saw him, I had forgotten he is in there, poor dude. But wait, black's freaking mecha accompanies him into hell too??)

[@mechajay3358]

With the least amount of episodes the Super 17 Arc had, it's very easy to see this as pointless filler. And they really bringing out the Member Berries for the Cell Arc by bringing back Gero and have Super 17 be a discount version of Cell while having the actual Cell team up with Frieza for a lackluster fight with Goku in Hell. Along with bringing back a bunch of old OG and Z DB villains only to have them defeat very quickly or off screen.

[@ms.antithesis]

i do think shows having multiple intro's is a good thing overall, i like seeing differant op's reflect how a show evolves overtime. but sometimes it's like "you're doing a new op 3 times a season, and like maybe 1 of them is good". like personally i think it should be 2 op's per year max. and that's only for shows that have high yearly episode counts.

[@justinmiddleton8818]

Yeah, this arc definitely was the most lackluster writing wise out of GT's run. I definitely think it's lower than the two arcs that bookend it. A couple other observations i noticed when re watching the show not so long ago: - I don't understand why Dr. Myuu is in Hell. He's not an organic living being. Dr. Gero makes sense because he was formerly a full blooded human at one point but was reconstructed as a cyborg later on. - I just have to say that of all the encounters with the resurrected villains Vegeta coming across Nappa again was kind of amusing, because the way the latter lunges at him angrily (He clearly still hasn't forgotten about how Vegeta effectively stabbed him in the back by blasting him into oblivion after Goku had disabled him with the Kaio-ken back then) though still i wish that he'd actually gotten a line or two of dialogue. Even something like "Vegeta, you bastard!!!!" or even "Raaaaaaaaagh...traitor!!!!!!" rather than just angry grunting. I also wish that he didn't get immediately vaporized but them actually trading blows a little though that said it was to show how much stronger Vegeta is compared to even back then.

[@cameronmarnoch5236]

Have we considered that Number 17 had a never before seen or mentioned identical twin brother? The most logical explanation

[@brandonlyon730]

18 is already his twin so there really triplets? Also 17 and 18’s supposed real names are Lapis and Lazuli, after the gem, what would the third ones name be to fit the naming scheme?

[@SylentEcho]

You do nitpick a bit too much sometimes, but what you've brought up here is incontrovertible. I haven't watched GT in over a decade and had no idea it was this silly, lol. Still love it, though.

[@dragonballgacha]

I guess you could say there was... *_A Link Between Worlds._*

[@BobbyMoore2-mp8wb]

Love ❤️ the Super 17 saga

[@shmikex]

Another great example of where one COULD nitpick but its okay because of the sake of the story is Gohan during the Android/Cell arc. We know from Trunks that Gohan in the next 13 years will only get as strong as he does (i.e. not strong enough to kill the androids), despite constantly fighting the Androids (and presumably getting zenkai boosts along the way). And yet in this arc we see a much younger Gohan not only surpass the androids, but Perfect Cell. You can argue that in the main timeline Gohan trained an additional 4 years (3 before the arc and one in the RoSaT) before the androids showed up and his anger caused the final push to SSJ2, but wouldn't Future Gohan have had at least similar gains over the additional 9 years, including anger from losing everyone? But because Cell go powerscaled way beyond the androids, and Toriyama wanted the arc to end with Gohan saving the day, he had to power up Gohan to match what was needed, future version be damned. Without Gohan getting his place to shine, it could have ended with Goku dealing the final blow, yes. But that would have been boring. Goku trained, Goku won, the end. Great. Trunks could have dealt the final blow, but that would leave the present feeling like they lost their MVP once Trunks heads home. And Vegeta winning, well, he did not need that ego boost at this stage of his journey. So it had to be Gohan. And the story was better for it.

[@nellewoodruff6337]

No wonder i don't remember Blue Velvet, but it's a shame because I put it on my playlist like a year ago to give a shot only for it to also be my favorite and break my replay button.

[@felixwilson2917]

Great vid

[@connorschultz380]

I remember thinking that the explanation was that the holes to hell are what crocked the dragon balls, that all the negative energy from hell spilling onto earth was the final straw that made them crack Sense the negative energy is at least strongly implied to be caused by selfish acts (if not outright stated, been awhile sense I saw GT) And hell is probably the single greatest Concentration of selfish people in the universe, I thought that was connecting the shadow dragons ark as a direct effect of the super 17 ark

[@YossarianVanDriver]

I might have commented this before, but I've always seen this arc as basically just one of the Z-movie disposable-bad-guy fights that got slipped into the show for want of anywhere else to put it (and to give the next arc's beginning a reason to happen). So like, it's forgettable nonsense (with some odd scenes that really feel like "hey look movie moment!"), but I can't feel worse than "eh, okay?" about it. Plus, gives us another Extremely Nineties Design.

[@truest0rmofdg41]

Lance in this 'arc' be like, "SO, THIS IS WHY THEY CALL IT THE SKELETON DOME!"

[@kuribo04]

Hmm I don't agree that having too many endings or openings kills the sense of identity. It gives identity to segments of a show. Bakemonogatari has 5 openings and it's a 15 episode show! And it pulls it off.

[@bgvo4373]

Does anyone notice that Myu and Gero don’t have halos?

[@MistareFusion]

The weirdness with halos in this arc in general is another thing I'll be getting into... probably next time.

[@Canaris4]

I figured those that go to Hell in GT don't have halos. If I recall correctly, Piccolo ends up losing his halo when he later gets sent there. I also recall how General Blue is shown with a halo after he gets killed a second time, implying that he gets to go to heaven. Something I recall being amused by.

[@Aust51989]

I think it would be interesting if the dragon balls start to crack as a result Piccolo and Dende (the guys who created the db’s) playing around with hell. Like they start to crack because Piccolo and Dende were playing around with negative energy.

[@supasphoje]

Speaking of the GT endings, they ended up getting dubbed versions. There a youtube channel that also combined the english vocals with the original version of the ending's instrumentation (since the funimation versions used different instruments) kzbin.info/www/bejne/o3WVe39tlt6igdE

[@soujimura4839]

As a 10 year old child I forgot 17 was still alive, man did super really improve on him

[@evanvinet8773]

This was a good episode thank you. GT is suck a cockblock. You get the music, the art, the character designs, the vibe, the wacky ideas, but every time you think something cool is going to happen it just doesn't, and every time you want to be invested the glaring problems just ruin the immersion. and this very specific point in anime history everyone tries to recreate is just impossible, whether if it's the technology or the techniques or the globalization. Watching Super 17 arc is just painful lol

[@kuribo04]

Mistare Fusion hype

[@AtomicComms]

Wonder how long itll Take to analyze this arc. Literally only a couple of episodes long but they're hella packed!!

[@Zhyro00]

to me the hell thing made sense kind of like a bug in the hell system, if the same person is in hell and earth at the same time the world doesnt know how to react and kind of glitches, that why it had to be specifically two 17s and later piccolo and dende since they are technically the same person, as to how did gero and myu knew to do it, i just figured they are just geniuses with enough time in hell to hammer it looking for glitches

[@Poki3]

I forgot this arc was even a thing.

[@GrandArchPriestOfTheAlgorithm]

To be fair, Frieza and Cell do have interesting dynamic in HeIl. And they're interacting with Raditz, and the Ginyu Force, the ogres and Guru. All the big villains.

[@RosencrantzxGuildenstern]

Oh man, I remember listening to that MIDI version for the first time during the early 2000s, good times! I'd go as far as to say I prefer it to the original.

[@SnowWolfAlpha]

I remember the Blue Water dub referred to Hell as "Hades". A little odd since the Blue Water was designed to be paired with the Ocean Z dub yet it wasn't called the "Home for Infinite Losers". Maybe they thought that would ndercut any tension or be too difficult with the mouthflaps. Thing is, Hades is so similar that I wonder why they bothered. Was that really enough to appease the censors/offended parents?

[@Old_Gil_Gunderson]

I Believe this is the second time You've referenced the voodoo shark from jaws in one of these videos 😂

[@MistareFusion]

Well, you're the second person to say so, so you're probably right!

[@nicholassims9837]

From Futurama Zordberg " My underwater house it burned down how did this happen ?" Hermes " That's a very good question " Bender " That's where I left my cigar " Hermes " That just raises further questions "

[@Keetz_01]

I’m literally rewatching this arc in Japanese right now

[@saiyan4414]

I still think they should have just pulled the 17 from the future and enhanced him then fused them.

[@spartanq7781]

Well how would they explain the time travel?

[@Vandita3344]

I been saying this for years and I totally agree with you on this one, The whole Hell thing is stupid. Thanks for making this video.