A Mormon Lesbian Love Story - Lena Schwen & Sal Osborne from Hulu’s Mormon No More | Ep. 1502

[@CocoKmimi]

I’m a non LDS obsessed with the LDS culture. I’ve been listening to John for years. This interview was one of my favorites!

[@revertrevertz5438]

Me too, I don’t know why I’m very interested in Mormon and Muslim stories. Both have quite a few similarities

[@CaveCreek101]

Don’t be obsessed with Joseph Smith who was a creeper. Explain to me how he can have 87? Wives and married young girls ????? That a religion for men

[@mailill]

@@revertrevertz5438 Ex LDS and ex JW stories for my part. This is a great video!

[@ward26102]

Ditto. I'm not a believer in a Supreme deity, but I'm a humanist and don't begrudge anyone what they need. I absolutely love this channel because it is all about human stories, ppl finding their way in life.

[@marciawellman8668]

Me too!

[@haleighpratt2909]

The love in Lena’s face and eyes as Sal tells hers story in the beginning is so pure and wonderful ❤

[@robinwollam3716]

I converted in 1996 left on my mission in 1998. I also was a dry Mormon. I married in the Temple in 2007 and divorced in 2011. I resonate so much with this. I left the Church in 2012. I am married to a wonderful man who accepts my bisexuality. Thank you so much for a great interview I can't wait to listen to part 2

[@Hallahanify]

What's a dry Mormon?

[@DarrenPassey]

@@Hallahanify An individual who lives the doctrine of the Mormon church and attends it without ever being a baptized member of the Church.

[@janegoodman4913]

@@DarrenPasseyCan’t be a missionary or married in the temple if not baptized. Maybe they meant before conversion. I looked it up.

[@discardedgranny9475]

I am a 67 yo grandmother & my life experience/observation is that the world wants you to be what IT thinks you should be, NOT what YOU think you should be. Sexuality is just ONE of those things. The world asks for honesty but honesty is what it does NOT want. It can RARELY handle the truth of ANYTHING.

[@Susan_1]

Hi, I'm a 67 year old granny too!!!My grand children call me granny💗

[@discardedgranny9475]

Hi, Susan❣️ I am, “Nunu”, to my 10 grandsons & 1 granddaughter.

[@Susan_1]

@@discardedgranny9475 I have 6 3 boys and 3 girls, I just love being their granny😇

[@discardedgranny9475]

Wonderful, Susan❣️ Unfortunately, because I questioned 1 of my daughters & my SIL (6 of my grandsons are Catholic…) about the child molestation crisis in the Catholic Church, I haven’t been allowed to see 6 of my 11 grandchildren for 3 1/2 years now. Thus, I AM the Discarded Granny.

[@Susan_1]

@@discardedgranny9475 I'm so sorry to hear that. I don't see anything wrong with asking about it. There was a huge problem with the sexual abuse in the Catholic Church...maybe someday they will change their mind and let you see you see your grandsons.🙏🙏🙏

[@MrPhillipjac]

Sal, my wife was in one of your freshmen mentor groups and has always looked up to you. We went to as many Love You Long Time shows that we could get to! You guys kicked some serious ass! We also, on a random chance, were watching your Wipeout episode when it originally aired and were thrilled for you that you won. :) Much love!

[@aliclark_33]

Sal is pretty much telling MY story…. I’ve never heard anyone do this before… ever, anywhere. Thank you for sharing this. The questions asked were amazing, too. I’ve had to do a lot of work to get to where I am now - a grown a$$, happy gay woman, in a biracial marriage, with adult children of my own and grandkids too. Healing from my upbringing has been a challenge, to say the least, and that am very happy to see this on KZbin. This will help others, without a doubt!

[@caseyjude5472]

What an excellent interview. John’s voice is a part of my psyche too. And now Carah & Gerardo are creeping in there too. When Sal said something like ‘the more I learn about the faults of the church the more pain she experiences’- I connected with that. I believe this kind of pain & humans reluctance to experience it is what keeps so many in the church, & also in other unhealthy relationships. Including how we relate to ourselves.

[@taranicolett2]

Yeah pop

[@triciadawnreynolds9498]

I’m only an hour in and am stunned at how Sal articulates her experience when she got engaged and married. It’s like I stepped back in time to my own ambivalence and trauma. Very poignant! Looking forward to watching the rest! It’s taken me a long time to forgive that 20-old-me...I was so trying to get it “right” and feeling so wrong inside at the same time. I’m just plain not ok with any structure, system or influence that says “don’t be yourself” and says that’s what God wants for you. I’m also hearing my daughter’s experience here. She came out as a lesbian a few years ago and I’m so proud of her! Thank you thank you for your courage to share your “Mormon” stories here. Some day I’m going to share mine more openly- if it will help others like this is helping me! 🙏💕 Thanks for your vulnerability

[@starlingswallow]

I would love to hear your story! ❤

[@IWantToMature85]

People defend this because it's women, yet they think that it's okay to cheat and leave their husbands. These women aren't good people for what they did and the blonde seems controlling.

[@heatheroberg6313]

I'm a non-morm, hooked on these podcasts. initially i thought it was interest in the background of the mormans i know, primarily my moms ex girlfriend who was morman, went to byu. they were together for 12 years. i wish her partner was better able to deal with her shame, which i think might have broke them up. but ultimately I've realized that these are so helpful in dealing with my own shame. hearing the enormous leaps of faith these folks go through to get past their shame is highly inspiring, and thats whats kept me listening. thanks for your great work!

[@mandigrimes1988]

Oh my God I’m so excited! My husband and I were obsessed with your band and went to tons of your concerts when we were at BYU-I. I think my husband kind of knew your ex Sal, and they had some classes together. Don’t Poop On My Party was the best ever. Your keytar was so cool, I thought you were the coolest! Still are, great episode! *edited to add, it wasn’t your ex he had a class with it was your brother Brian 😊

[@papadopp3870]

Cool. Gives a whole new meaning to the Love You Long Time song “I Don’t Party Like I Used To”😉!

[@teri3965]

Sal, I’ve been in EMDR therapy for a while now for trauma. It is absolutely amazing. I’m excited for you to shed the pain from trauma. Great message.

[@MyAngryKitchen]

What an amazing interview. Such incredibly kind, brave and very human set of humans! I pretty much fall in love with everyone you interview, John, because of the honesty in how they came through to the other side and because of their compassion for self and for others . So many interesting people are/were Mormons and I have learned so much about Mormons and life in general from these interviews. Thank you for the interview and for whom you bring on to the show.

[@vanessacook8862]

I just want to say, (so far I've only listened to Sal's interview so I'm excited to listen to Lena's) but Sal, I want to be your best friend. You have such amazing energy and grace and in evey bit of your talk so far, I just keep thinking, man she's so awesome! Wishing you and Lena the absolute best in all things.

[@hattswank5313]

Gotta say this was a great episode. The approach was solid and unassuming. Very thoughtful all around.

[@pennywenny01]

I recently left the church and i have basically just accepted the fact that ive never actually been attracted to men and now I'm in a lesbian relationship and honestly i couldnt be happier. I've felt so lost for so long and i feel like im actually being myself for once. Its a wild feeling after being convinced that you cant be happy without the church or the gospel, but im so much happier now.

[@lifewithlenaf]

From another convert to another, especially one who shares your name, thank you for sharing your story with us. Fellow converts always have an interesting take and perspective that can be helpful for others to hear ❤️❤️ -L

[@shanepratt2766]

EVERY time I watch one of these I think to myself, "This one is the best by far!" Then I watch a new one and I think, "No, THIS one is the best!" My first episode was Samantha and Tanner and the episodes are as interesting to me now and they were back then. Just when I think every story has been told BAM!! A new one.....(. :

[@raylawler13]

That was my first episode as well!

[@that_nao]

random never-mo lesbian with some ~thoughts~ on the gender vs. sexuality conversation y'all were having around 20ish mins in. for (some) lesbians, our gender identity can feel inseparable from our sexuality because of how womanhood gets defined society in relation to men. women are wives to their husbands, daughters to their fathers. they're submissive to men, talk less than me, are physically weaker and smaller than men, etc. so, (some) lesbians feel like we aren't exactly 'women' in the same way that straight or even bi women are because our relationships, dynamics, and co-existence with men is utterly different. nothing we do is to garner sexual attention or desire from men (which is not to say that anything non-lesbian women do is, but *some* of what non-les women do is, or at very least they're open to it). i've seen a similar dynamic play out with lots of ace/aro folks who are also nb. because gender has so many defining factors related to sexual/romantic attraction, often ace/aro nbs feel that their gender or lack thereof is linked to their attraction or lack thereof. idk, sorry if this has made no sense, it's been a long work monday haha

[@hannahwilson-sc8um]

hey, thx a lot for that insight. i really needed to read this after all those confusions i had 😊

[@suzetteemberton4368]

That makes a lot of sense. Thank you for taking the time to explain.

[@YesiLaMorenita]

Wow. Another really moving interview! I wonder how Lena handled having a temple wedding with a catholic family? My family is catholic and they take church weddings *so seriously *

[@mostlyvoid.partiallystars]

This is the first MSP where I actually understood some of the religion 😂 My HS boyfriend was Catholic as was my best friend so even though I was Methodist I was familiar with Confirmation, Midnight Mass, I even knew the Hail Mary (because my bfs mom said it every time he was about to score a soccer goal lol). This is a wonderful interview. I want to say thank you to Sal and Lena for being so vulnerable. ❤

[@martaaleksejczuk1660]

I never was a mormon but I was raised catholic in a pretty conservative country. The part where you talked about how women aren't taught that they too can enjoy sexuality and feel the desire really hit home. Thinking like that caused me a ton of pain as a young woman.

[@emmyrose1802]

I am taking a break from gored true crime and have been hooked on these Mormon stories.

[@mscptizzy]

I do this too. I got from True crime to cult like stuff and any other true life event documentary 😂.

[@alysiahegg4606]

Omg me too!

[@brittamcallister3809]

I needed this, please keep these interviews coming!!!

[@mindajane]

I was raised Southern Baptist and not Mormon but I can't tell you how much I relate to Sal's story. Right down to using a boyfriend to hide from my sexuality lol. We were together 15 years and never married because I kept finding reasons to not get married because I couldn't admit I wasn't attracted to him or guys in general. I kept waiting for it to feel right and it never did and never would've.

[@Golf2foto]

Does he know? Or do you string him along?

[@ArtisticDazzler]

I listened to Nan and Rod’s episodes yesterday, then the algorithm gifted me this video! I’m loving them all! ❤ P.S.: Sal, you look so much like your mom! 😊

[@macmcinroe7851]

Thanks for all you guys do. 😘

[@whitajeman]

Wonderful to hear both of these backgrounds after listening to Sal's parents episodes. Looking forward to part 2 and then to watch the documentary and follow this beautiful family! My son is also on the Autism spectrum and its always nice to find someone else in that community especially a fellow ex-mo

[@hollicrosby7708]

Yea! Finally a lesbian story like so many of us hid for decades!

[@MsPrettyPrettyPlease]

I’m new to this pod, but can I say, I really appreciate how the host pauses when they are talking about something in the church that someone who was not raised LDS wouldn’t know. O.K. Off to binge the show! 😂

[@retiredattorney67]

W

[@mandigrimes1988]

I just looked up all your songs again and I still remember most of the words, we had your albums and merch, we were huge fans!! 😂 those were the days! Hearing it again took me right back, wow. I’m so happy Sal that you have found your way out of the church and found your true love.

[@gretchenisasquirrel]

Plz drop a link, I can't find 'em

[@mandigrimes1988]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/Y5fKc2CLobaWi6s

[@gretchenisasquirrel]

@@mandigrimes1988 tysm. I love their energy and Sal's personality shines through. It's amazing to see ppl in different times of their lives.

[@loriallan9294]

Lena, thank you for sharing. I totally now understand why my only daughter has and continues to be groomed by her LDS missionary boyfriends family. He’s got one more year on his mission and she’s waiting for him. My progressive faith in Christ is the only thing that’s getting me through! 😩🙏she has no clue what awaits her.

[@dionnaslocum1781]

I have never been a LDS member, I did Live with a man that was raised Mormon. I was in love with and lived with a man for 4 years, that was raised LDS, at one point we had the elder missionaries coming over to our house to see him, the younger ones to introduce me and my kids into the church. It was such a complicated situation because I’ve never met people so nice and sweet, however I did not believe what they believed and it put a huge wedge between him and I at one point. We are no longer together, I do feel like it is because he was so hard himself because the way he was raised in a certain way. I think what this podcast and KZbin channel does is amazing I feel that you are helping so many people.I do not think people can understand unless they experience the situation..At one point my boyfriend accused me of having the devil inside me because I did not want the Younger missionaries wanting toconvert me and my children. I will always tell people I meet that Mormons are truly the nicest most loving people that anybody will ever meet. It is very confusing for somebody that is not firm in their believes.

[@Hallahanify]

A nice person wouldn't call you the devil.

[@summerpulley8564]

So excited for this episode!!!

[@kathytillotson4238]

This space would be a beautiful place for Sal and her ex husband to talk candidly and freely, retrospectively about their marriage and how they feel about each other now.

[@IWantToMature85]

She did him wrong. She seems to be thr controlling type too. She does most of the talking. Lena was always down-to-earth and quiet and I'm sure she was pressured by Sal to start this relationship. It's like she thinks that people can't be friends.

[@landonian1223]

the osbornes were in my ward and were great people. Sal was a bit older than me but I remember her being tomboy haha glad to see her happy, kudos from a fellow exmo

[@xerk2945]

Unrelated, but Carah and Lena really look like they could be sisters.

[@ahoranui]

Straight man comment

[@SarahBethSigns]

It's interesting to hear her views of "other religions" as not caring about the afterlife. I was raised Evangelical Protestant and there are a lot of similarities to Mormonism in the belief that there is one truth and that we know what it is.

[@kcheylin9957]

​@@firepower7654 No, it's not. You'd be surprised, but it does take a minute(!) to do the homework with that. There are many “religions” out there that have no problem with multiple gods and/or no gods at all. They simply don’t care enough to take that much of a stand. However, Christianity is and always will be exclusive, much as physical laws (gravity, etc.) are. Authenticity proves itself without us even trying to believe that. It’s not every day a guy predicts his death and resurrection and then actually comes through with it; AFTER having been witnessed by thousands in performing supernatural healings. And all of this in an exceptionally remote and unimportant place and time. Leveled to the ground around 70 A.D. no less. Further, the spread of the account of his death & resurrection was (for the next several hundred years) outlawed and punishable by death and/or death by torture. Indeed, the immediate followers (apostles) all died martyrs’ deaths. Any one of them, at the least, could’ve saved themselves a horrific end, but there was no denying what they had been part of and witness to. For hundreds of years after, there was no such thing as a “Bible”. None. The growth of Christianity had everything to do with the passionate eye-witnesses of the unquestionable reality of the resurrection event following a short, 3-year ‘ministry’ involving thousands of miraculous healings and hope-inspiring teachings (all while being persecuted and hated by the culture’s contemporary religious leaders). So, in the first generation of Christianity and then thereafter, the authentic outpouring of the Spirit brought the truth of the resurrection to the minds, hearts and lives of those who heard AND dared to question the invisible God as to his existence and the existence of the Christ. There's no reason for a controversy, truly. If I ask God to make himself real to me in a way I can't deny, he'll do it. If I don't even try that (if I don't pose that question to God), I'll never know. Try it yourself. Nothing to lose and much, much to gain. God will reach those who ask in a way that is resonate to their hearts and minds.

[@cynthiajagneaux3949]

I don’t think it should be about religion. It should be a person’s relationship with God. Following the Bible’s teaching, but if we don’t go to church, how would we be exposed to the Gospel?

[@blazefairchild465]

Not all Catholic homes are the same, not all children asking the priest questions,not in their study books.

[@hbendzulla8213]

Life is what it is, a very good Eye opening Podcast.

[@bobbiejones9266]

I am no longer a Mormon. But for years I have known and been friends with gays . Both lesbian and homosexual men. The one main thing I have learned from all of them is that THEY ARE THE SAME PEOPLE they have always been!!! They are kind, loving, hardworking, friendly, and also Christians!!!! The ONLY difference is their sexual orientation! I do not understand that preference because it's alien to me. But their feelings and choices are theirs. I also have a gay granddaughter now in her twenties. She is exactly as she has always been. A lovely, loving young woman. She is also a Christian. I fully accept her as always along with her mate who is also like a granddaughter to me!! My feeling is that our Heavenly Father made them just as he made me. He knew how and what we would be when we were born. If my Father in Heaven has made provisions for me when I pass from this Earth, he has also made provisions for them!!!! They are his children also.

[@bonniew9960]

So validating to hear my life retold in the voices of two lovely women...😍😍

[@Scarly373]

The term for what these women (and I) have experienced, is called Compulsory Heterosexuality or Compulsory Heternormativity. That straight is the default. And when we don't have examples in media and society, it's that much harder for women to figure themselves out. But our sexuality will eventually find its way to the surface.

[@thijsjong]

Throughout history there is a logical reason for hetero to be the norm. Babies. A tribe could only survive if there were enough babies born and being cared for. Think of high child mortality. A man and a woman were a natural team there. And obvious biological reasons. Thats why there was cultural preasure to be hetero. I am not saying there should not be any lesbian or gay relationships. It just was that those relarionships contributed less to survival and were shunned. Now there is more affluence and less bare bone survival non hetero relationships can thrive. In poor mountaintribe communities strict patriachy is the norm. Thats why the tal y ban took over Afgha ni stan. Thats the only thing that works there. I am not saying how anyine should live their lives. Just pointing out the mechanucs at play in different cultures.

[@katesanders2219]

I've found it much easier to work away from this with my kids than I expected. For example, just asking "do you have a crush on anyone?" instead of asking about boys/girls. Talking about different types of gender and sexuality and relationships. If society could just make some small changes, we could really make a huge difference for the next generation.

[@mariannepolkowski-burns2627]

@@thijsjong There were women who died in childbirth, and there was much other work that could be done by those not in a man-woman team. If you researched further you might find that societies had many roles to perform and needed the help of all those who could care for children, and do other domestic skills. This topic is much deeper and meant for anthropologists to make their assessment.

[@breezycovergirl]

John l was a model when l was younger. I have had so many married men in the church come on to me when l was Very young . The men were prominent Leaders in the church. On this Very day When l listen to the story of the Bishop asking such personal questions It sickens me.. It is still happening

[@mormonstories]

I'm so sorry Victoria!

[@scottbrandon6244]

At 1:14:26. I think John has a good point. The purity culture also discourages youth from exploring their sexuality. This includes masturbation. How are they expected to know what turns them on sexually and convey that to their spouse? Mormon youth are taught from day one that sex outside of marriage is bad, and that God knows all thoughts, deeds and actions. This has bearing on what a male or female thinks about sex and their own body.

[@bobbiejones9266]

I was molested as a very small child. Not actually raped but touched a lot in all the wrong places. And by someone I should have been able to trust. As a teen I wanted that feeling of being loved. The only problem was sex is all the boys wanted. They had no idea what really loving someone was. I married right before I was 19 yrs old. My husband didn't really want me as a person . He wanted someone to have sex with regularly. He was emotionally abusive and went out on me from the time he married me. I had my first child at age 20. I almost died giving birth to our son. My husband was in the service in Korea at the time. My doctor was going to have him brought home but I got so upset he said he would wait one more day. That was four days after birth of the baby. I didn't even see my baby for two days because I was completely out of it!!! And very ill. Surprisingly I started becoming more alert and so my doctor relented although my husband was informed of my condition. Of course he didn't believe the doctor and thought I was just putting on being ill. I had to go to my parents home because I wasn't allowed to go up and down stairs or even pick my baby up for six weeks!! Someone had to hand my baby to me! I was only allowed to go to bathroom.The doctor told me there was a possibility I would never have another child. And if I wanted to try to see a really good GYN doc first. So when I was 24 the GYN doc said if I wanted to try do it then because that would be it if I was even able to get pregnant or carry the baby. I had another son. I didn't do as badly or come that close to death this time but the doctor told us I would never have another and to try would take my life. But then I had to have a complete hysterectomy so that was no longer an option anyway!! My lovely husband just bitched and carried on that he would have a dozen kids he I was able to. It wasn't that he wanted kids. He was a lousy father! He just wanted me saddled at home with kids so I couldn't get out and check on who was cheating with next!!!! I finally insisted on going to college. My husband bitched non stop about that also. He refused to contribute a cent or help in any way. I got 2 part time jobs, student loans and went. My jobs were so that I could be home with sons within a hour of them getting out of school.My neighbor kept them till I got home. My husband didn't want sex with me after that. He told me I was too fat. I weighed 128# and was 5ft 4in. !!! Finally I found he brought one of his women into our home while I was away. I divorced him!! I dated but wanted a relationship where the man loved ME not himself. That he wanted to really know me and would care about me. I was already soured on sex. Yet that is all the men ever wanted . Not just to date and get to know me. I quit dating!!!! I decided no man was going to just use me for his pleasure. I really think there is something wrong with men and their sexual being!!!! They think they will die without it! I have 7 grandchildren and four great grandchildren. I have never regretted not marrying again and in fact have had life most people never get to live!! Very fulfilling and content. I haven't missed sex and all that goes with that. It's over rated!!!!

[@bobbiejones9266]

And such a small part of a relationship!

[@sophiej1987]

I got my patriarchal blessing about a year before I decided the church isn’t true. I convinced I felt “peace” right after I got it, but really I was thinking “that’s it?” Lol it was so vague and I could’ve written that about all the girls in my ward. My mom told me the more she reads hers the more she gets out of it so I would pray and read it every few months trying to feel something more towards it, and then later on I was like damn this church isn’t true at all and threw it away (sadly because I sort of wish I could reread it now).

[@alyssadriscoll7181]

If you want to reread it you can request a copy online

[@amysutton5265]

This is my comfort podcast episode series ❤

[@kaijusushi8165]

Note that exactly 3 people always dislike every Mormon Stories video as soon as they drop? Maybe its the three nephites watching - hope none of THEM has a faith crisis!

[@KPApothecary]

LOL!!

[@t-pain3343]

3 stooges

[@ricobuttonpusher7061]

That or god, Jesus and the Holy Ghost

[@jbee5258]

I am sorry that anyone is bullied. Sal - you are an amazing person!!

[@cindymolander4183]

Once again, I (never Mormon) am learning so much from Mormon Stories. I’m glad to be learning about Mormon history and culture, but much of what the interviews are about has value for me outside of those topics.

[@SunnyShay]

This is dumb but at 1:39:47 I said ‘Keira Knightley’ when you both did.. and when she said ‘no’ I googled and can’t find a movie with Keira that has ‘knight’ in it. Why did we all think of her though?? 🤔 I’m so confused 😂

[@rickmcdonald1557]

What great Ladies and I'm happy for them as they are still young and have much time left to enjoy their new lives~!!

[@lelly6815]

This is awesome. John's voice is part of my psyche too and is it just me who is falling for Carah's too? 🥰 Mormon stories future is safe in her hands ✋

[@gilbertcjbeecheno3614]

I enjoyed this particular pod cast because it brought up a great deal of christianity that the church ever did. And this is not to say I don't like other stories but this one to me was very humane to general the way life actual is on this planet. It cut out all the indoctrination of Mormon teachings. looking forward to part 2.

[@kathleencurtis3984]

Thanks you guys..eye opening..BLESSINGS

[@giuseppemariocescutti-fitz5835]

I have many Mormon relatives. Its fascinating because there is a lot of pathology within the religion, but not to single out the LDS-all religions have issues. But I am particularly interested in Mormon stories.

[@dianethulin1700]

We used to tell people who asked about having babies that we were practicing. It worked!

[@lsun5322]

Love this episode!!

[@bodytrainer1crane730]

Loved this so much. Thank you Sal and Lena. ❤️❤️❤️

[@foxibot]

I remember as a kid hearing Mormons had these dance clubs but they didn’t drink at them or smoke and since I don’t drink or smoke I thought man that would be heaven. And I remember Donny and Marie talking about that once. And I remember that was a huge appeal for me. I didn’t like people drinking, as I also lost a friend to accident at college where she was killed when she went with this drunk sorority girl and frat boys. She was the only one sober. And so she tensed up when they crashed. And broke her neck. I had tried earlier to get her not to get in the car.

[@rosiemoore2285]

Such a beautiful couple. Thank you for sharing, I cannot wait for part two, from this lesbian nevermo ❤️

[@jcostel27]

I truly don't understand people who convert to Mormonism as adults. If you were raised and nurtured within that tradition, I could understand the emotional attachment that would keep you tied to it. However, I don't see how an adult could listen to that ridiculous story recounted in the Book of Mormon, along with origin story (i.e., the encounter with Moroni, the golden plates, the seer stone, the "restored" Gospel, etc.) and think to him/herself, "Yes, I really think the world works that way."

[@courtneybillings6717]

This is tough but in simple terms ... the missionaries are so well trained to make it look good. Also notice that most adults who join will acknowledge that they had some sort of trauma going on when they first met the missionaries. For me being 18 in utah .... still traumatized from my parents dramatic divorce and wanting so bad to fit in etc. Adele new song is my jam right now. Left 3 years ago

[@DarrenPassey]

It sounds like these two ladies are reflecting on some complex issues around acceptance, community, and personal choices, especially as they relate to the experiences shared in "Mormon No More." From what they described, the documentary seems to touch on the challenges of transitioning from one lifestyle or belief system to another, and how that transition affects relationships, identity, and parenting. The sense of community and acceptance that individuals seek is often deeply tied to their experiences and personal histories. Here are a few perspectives that might help clarify the dynamics I observing: Search for Acceptance: The quest for acceptance is a fundamental human need. For many people who leave a religious community (such as the Mormon Church) or make significant life changes, finding a new community where they feel accepted and valued is crucial. This search can sometimes be perceived as imposing new beliefs or values, especially by those who might not fully understand the context or the emotional needs driving these actions. Parallels with Previous Experiences: It’s common for individuals to replicate aspects of their past communities in their new lives, albeit in a different context. For example, the LGBTQ+ community and allies often create spaces where they feel safe and celebrated, similar to the sense of belonging they might have once found in their Mormon religious community. I felt in the documentary that if Lena and Sal did not get the acceptance (like from Lena's mission president) he was against her. Look at Sal's husband is still reeling from their divorce. This can sometimes be interpreted by others as "forcing" new values, though it often stems from a desire to create supportive environments rather than to impose beliefs. Children and Values: Parenting and the values taught to children can be a sensitive topic. Parents generally want to impart their values and beliefs to their children, whether they come from a Christian or Mormon background or a new lifestyle. The key issue is balancing the transmission of values with the ability to respect and support the children's individual identities and choices. Indoctrination vs. Education: The line between teaching values and indoctrination can be blurry. What some may see as indoctrination, others might view as education and positive reinforcement of identity. The intention behind these practices is often to provide a sense of belonging and support, rather than to coerce or brainwash. I saw many signs of indoctrination/education into the LGBTQ+ for their children (rainbow flags the little girl was waving in the documentary, the rainbow bracelets, socks, and pictures all over their home, no different than what I saw in their parent's home), just as their parents did to them with their Mormon upbringing. Their parents did not have a book to help guide them through every situation, they were doing what they felt was their best. Again which way you perceive that is always going to fall within the eyes of the beholder. In conversations about these issues, it's important to approach them with empathy and an understanding of the diverse experiences and motivations that people have. Engaging in open, respectful dialogue can help bridge gaps in understanding and foster mutual respect, even when perspectives differ.

[@Zhaliberty]

When I was an active devout mormon I never felt a need to defer to "men" not in a leadership position. So if I had a man tell me to pray about dating him... I would have laughed. I honestly grew up with the idea/justification/excuse that men had the priesthood to keep them righteous. So I took it as though they weren't righteous and had something to overcome and the priesthood gave them that opportunity.

[@rosecauffman5984]

At 16 my best friend also died in a car accident and I tried to talk him out of the trip. But going up as an atheist and him and I having discussions about religion. I knew it would dishonest of me to force myself to believe in something I couldnt and it would disgrace his memory.

[@ScottBub]

I have to say that when they all interact and talk about the psychology of when the Mormons influenced her after her friend’s death it is amazing. There is so much good information and unbiased perspective there. Talking about the Mormon perspective of love and the secular understanding of manipulation and undue influence during a traumatic experience when someone is vulnerable is so emotional triggering for me. It makes me terribly upset for all the children that are indoctrinated like this by their parents every time they are in a vulnerable state and in power dynamic structured like that… it’s a shame that they have no choice and ability to make a determination themselves.

[@tiadavenport5465]

I think that it's not okay for minors to attend this type of church without permission from their adult/grown-up. Any church, really.

[@apostababelindajames7461]

@@tiadavenport5465 I agree. Thank you for saying this.

[@nicolawalker6402]

I can relate to Lenas conversion, I have battled cancer 4x, it’s been going on since 2015, had lots of treatments, operations, procedures etc it all takes a toll, I was in a very dark place last year, I was watching this KZbin channel who does junk journaling, I noticed she did scripture Saturdays, at first I didn’t watch but something intrigued me so I watched one, the another, and before I knew it I had bought a Bible (this was in June), I decided I wanted to attend church so Googled churches near me, and the LDS was the top search, plus it was the only one that had a website, I didn’t know it was a Mormon church until my first visit, I filled out something on the website for the missionaries to reach out, so I txt them back and forth for a few weeks, after a couple of times of me saying I would come to church and not going, I ended up going, I met the Elders who I had been talking to at the door, they even sat next to me, and then I started getting the lessons, I was invited to all these houses for lunch or dinner, I had never felt so welcome, I was always afraid about dying, then going through cancer made that fear worse, especially after being told that my cancer would keep coming back until I couldn’t fight, because of the church I no longer am afraid of dying. I loved drinking tea, I didn’t drink alcohol much anyway so that didn’t bother me, but I do miss tea, I gave up 2 weeks before my baptism cold turkey and haven’t touched it since, I now drink red bush which is ok but it’s not tea, I was baptised in Sept and it was an amazing experience but on the other hand it was sad as non of my family came. Now I’m starting to regret it, I love my Bible, I love my Heavenly Father but I don’t think I believe in the BOM, I don’t like the things I’ve heard about racism, I don’t like the fact that only men can do blessings etc I feel like a 2nd class citizen, I don’t think god would treat his daughters that way. I had been to the temple, I didn’t know I would be doing 30+ baptisms for the dead, I thought it would be a couple, but after getting over that I had an amazing experience, the only down side was that I couldn’t do the baptism for my grandfather, it was done by a young boy I didn’t really know, I did get to watch it which was better than nothing. I felt my grandfather close to me that day, so that was amazing. I love going to the church, I love the people at my church, it’s a social thing for me too, that’s why I’m still a member. I don’t know what to do, I don’t believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet, I have read the letter to my wife, I started reading it on Sunday and finished it yesterday, I was gobsmacked and feel fooled. Would it be wrong of me to just pretend that I believe just so I don’t lose that church community, I’m getting a patriarchal blessing soon which I’m really excited about, I have been assigned as a ministering sister (with another woman)to 2 ladies in my church, I have watched a good few episodes of your podcast and I’ve really enjoyed it, but u have definitely opened my eyes, I just don’t know what to do

[@bobbiejones9266]

.

[@bobbiejones9266]

It's sad you feel you need to stay for community togetherness. You could start gathering non Mormon friends for little get togethers and.keep adding friends and activities. Build on it. I would hating sitting through their meetings and believing . That would be torture .

[@71suns]

Put the 'Book of Mormon' aside....and any other books attached to it. Put them in a drawer and close it. Consider reading only the Gospel.The book of John first. Ask the Lord to open your heart to the truth of who He is. Not who the man Joseph Smith claimed the Lord is.

[@nicolawalker6402]

@@71suns this a great idea, thank you so much. I really appreciate this 💖

[@kalsrc]

@@nicolawalker6402 You do you. This channel is anti-Mormon so you will not find support for them here.

[@AdautoMedeiros]

Loving this interview! Sally, awesome, so adorable, sweet, smart. Her wife is a sweetheart as well.

[@summerpulley8564]

This is so so so good! Love this episode

[@CarahBurrell]

These two! Ugh! ❤️❤️

[@pgklada]

as Sal says, john, you are a part of our lives :-)))) although I am neither mormon nor lesbian, I adore listening to these interviews... I have tried tiktok, but it does not ring... also, john, i like your interrupts and explanations "some of our viewers are not mormons, let's explain this..." :-)

[@ihave7631]

OMG I was raised female am female identified as female and that did NOT life easier. My daughter was never a girly girl but she doesn’t whine that she was bullied

[@albin2232]

Its lovely to see those genuine smiles! Wonderful people.

[@moo_jessye]

I got sent home from girls camp once. We were hiking in Zion NP and my little 100lb body couldn’t carry my 30-40lb backpack up and down hills in the 100 degree heat. I was having an asthma attack and suffering from both physical and heat exhaustion. My youth leaders didn’t seem to thrilled when they had to walk back with me when I couldn’t do the hike anymore. Then I when I got home I remember just feeling shame by my FM for leaving the trip early.

[@Hallahanify]

What's FM?

[@bobbiejones9266]

From a very young age I felt my heavenly Father or some dirty was with me most times. When I left the Mormon Church you would have thought Satan himself was going to rise up and snatch me right back to hell with him from things people would say to me. But a couple I was very close friends with left about a year before I did so talking with them and spending time with them made it easier for me. I was made to feel so unworthy in the Mormon church that it was a relief not be with those people that made me feel that way!!! It didn't take me long to shake it off because there was already so many things I questioned for years before ...... And didn't get answers for. Was always told I didn't have enough faith!!!! I found out I had lots of faith , just not faith in what they wanted me to believe in!!

[@BG-ig6fd]

“The patriarchy is something I want to burn to the ground.” This! Love it.

[@Xaforn]

I grew up UPCI, they also call themselves the “true” church. So much that was discussed hit soul deep for me, I’m still deconstructing and healing.

[@dianethulin1700]

Hi Lena. I used to work for an Italian chef and it changed the way I view food. I want to recommend"In Nonna's Kitchen' by Carole Little to you. We sponsored the book release. All the grandmas came and I loved to meeting them! Also You Tube channel "Pasta Grannies". Italian grandmas making their recipies in short videos. Buon Appitito! **My mother is from Ojai and we have family in SLO and Paseo Robles. I love it down there. The best Mexican food

[@MargieOliver]

Just subscribed to Pasta Grannies. Yum!

[@ScottBub]

Woah woah woah. Okay, when they were talking about someone questioning their own sexuality or sexual attraction by asking themselves “am I gay?” that DOES NOT mean that you are gay. I don’t know if that was just sarcasm or a joke, but you are allowed to keep questioning yourself. It’s something that a skeptic would do. You can explore and come to a conclusion and then later in your life explore again and again come to the same conclusion. There have been several times where I have questioned myself while exploring my own mind, thinking, biases, and whenever I get new information and I still come to the conclusion that I am straight. If I didn’t reassess or consider how would I know my authentic self? Or would I only be my authentic self if I came to a different conclusion than heterosexual?

[@kalehead0075]

Thank you for saying that. As someone who works with young women as a counselor, it’s such a normal question to ask yourself.

[@ScottBub]

@@kalehead0075 thanks! It’s amazing to me that other people haven’t really thought the same about this post. I would have thought John or others would agree too.

[@Cult-Free_Ang]

Idaho is two states in one. Coeur d’Alene and the “panhandle” of Idaho are left-wing and liberal. South and South Eastern is an extension of Utah’s Mormon right thinking.

[@function0077]

Lol! Eastern Washington and Northern Idaho are not liberal. I currently live in Spokane (I have also lived in Seattle, SLC, Provo, & Chicago). Maybe its liberal compared to Ezra Taft Benson (almost everybody is left of him).

[@EricaMMR]

HA!!! Raised in CdA and knew Sal in my stake - in NO way is CdA “liberal”. It’s not Mormon-filled like SE Idaho, but it’s the home of the aryan nations and a super right-wing area for sure.

[@71suns]

​@@EricaMMR Horrid. Self-serving and deceived beyond comprehension. The notion that skin has ANYTHING WHATSOEVER to do with supposed 'superiority' or supremacy! Ludicrous.

[@Hallahanify]

It didn't sound very liberal how they described it. Kkk parade? That's pretty wild

[@starlingswallow]

Hello ladies! I just wanted to say, as a former "Christian" who's deconstructed and who still believes in God & Jesus but has put away her judgmental, critical, religious cap, I'm so glad you both did this interview. I WANT To grow, learn and understand more. Everyone matters, God loves _everyone,_ and LOVE matters most. It's _the most powerful_ force in the world!! I'm still dismantling old programming regarding people of other sexual preferences (other than heterosexual) but it's vulnerable and open stories like these that are helping me. I really appreciate you both, and Mormon Stories for having you on! ❤

[@eds4169]

2:30:40 - Luke 14:26 "If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple." This is part of the difficulty with Sola Scriptura - we lose the nuances and indeed the very tradition, essence, and grounding of the early Fathers that, in reality, developed and preserved the Bible as we know it today. In ancient writing, "hate" doesn't quite mean the same as it does today, for at the time, it was not the antithesis of love, but rather, the state of valuing something less than 100%. God is saying here that He should be first above all for our collective human consciousness, the very fiber of our being - everything - falls apart and misses the mark otherwise... in reality, if we are unwilling to turn our lives over to God, then idols become the focus of our existence, we become beholden to our passions, and the Truth and Love of Jesus Christ moves further away. Our selfish and prideful sins consume our spirit like a raging fire. C.S. Lewis' The Great Divorce is an allegorical parallel to Luke 14:26. In it, the Grey Town - a symbol of the afterlife - lends itself to a woman on the plain before the mountains of God, seeking to reunite with her deceased child. She is so focused on expressing "love" for her son that she neglected her family, and indeed, God. We must understand that the purpose of our life, much like an asymptote, is to infinitely progress in our communion with God... forever growing closer, as a created creature, never becoming or fusing with God, but rather becoming by grace what God is by nature...by loving God above all else so that we may understand true love, that we may know what it is to truly love and be loved. The enlightened beings indicate that the only way to enter the mountains is to love God for the sake of God; consequently, the mother's love is not really true love, but a selfish desire, of using our love for God as a means to an end rather than the alpha and the omega - the grounded reality of universe. To love God above all else facilitates loving others as God loves us all. Our children, our spouses, our family... we believe they are an extension of ourselves - our literal genetic material (in many cases) - and so naturally, for a great many of us, we miss the mark on true love... rather than an expression of humbleness, it becomes one of selfishness. That is the spirit of Luke 14:26. God is like an infinite fractal... the more you knock, the greater the opportunity. Dig deep, and remember to love thy neighbor as thyself, and above all, God.

[@andromedaunsure72]

Ahhhh I’m saving this cause I’m a girl who isn’t Mormon but has a maaaaasive crush on a Mormon girl who I kinda get gay vibes from

[@Kleatherwood]

V excited for this interview!

[@SamTechWorld9]

I just realized theres a 2nd part yeeiii!

[@tiadavenport5465]

The LDS community and culture are so stuck with women doing this and not that. It's ridiculous and harmful.

[@apostababelindajames7461]

It's just amazing to me how when one represses themselves and keep themselves from being their true authentic self, this is presented as something that is pleasing God. Because remaining in one's repressed state becomes rewarded, it is done even more often. Conforming to that of something else or that of someone else other than whom one truly is, is absolutely damaging and toxic for one's mental state of mind, yet that is what's absolutely necessary for one to receive what is to be promised in the afterlife by God. This constant reminder that is usually referred to as *one's fleshly self,* ( their authentic self ) as opposed to *one's spiritual self,* ( the repressed self ). One's fleshly self is looked down upon by one's social cultural structure, while the spiritual self, as damaging and toxic as it definitely is, it is what one must remain in to please God because God doesn't approve of one's fleshly self. It's horrible to have to live one's life like this. It's like some dirty trick that is being played on this one's life, yet at the same time, this one needs to constantly remind themselves and other's that they are in fact truly happy to live their lives like this, because what they want, is really not important. What's really important is pleasing God. This is a soul crushing nightmare of an existence. Being gay is not a choice. Neither is being a lesbian. No one should be put in the position of being responsible for God's happiness or sadness. It is an unfair burden to put that responsibility on anyone, *especially a child.*

[@priola7587]

I grew up in Coeurd’Alene in the 60s. I so related to this story, even though we weren’t Mormon and this was decades earlier. Our neighbor, for a bit, was an FBI agent named….. drumroll …. Mr. Peepers. 😂. Nice guy. I was also a little tomboy in my childhood. Mom would put me in those patent leather shoes and Lacey dresses, and I’d grab my six shooters as I went out the door. Hilarious. Not so much for mom. Those were the Roy & Dale Rodgers, Lone Ranger years. I was also the Wicked Witch in the High school play, and student body President. In the late 70s I came out, but was living in a bigger city by then, thank goodness. This was such a great story to hear. Thank you all so much for this episode.

[@estherhelbig]

Sal is such an amazing and strong woman. I saw the doku "mormon no more" and her exhusband seem clever and very loveable. I am happy for them all, for Lena and Sal but for their exhusbands, too. They all come a long way in healing and co-parenting.

[@BirdRockin]

Thank you Sal for telling your story. I can relate to your experience around Texas Mormon girls, "super mean...the mean girls..." especially as a teenager when it was at its worst. They didn't openly bully but they covertly and sometimes openly excluded me, made fun of me behind my back loud enough and often enough that I knew. For some strange reason, the young womens president talked my mother into helping her pressure me into going to the girls camp one summer. I was 14 and against my better judgment I caved and went. I tried to fit in and have fun, but it was the absolute worst and loneliest LDS-event experience I ever had thanks to the mean girls. Our chaperones were mothers including that president and they acted like they were clueless to what was going on and that really hurt. At the same time, I concluded those LDS girls were not worth trying to get them to like me or have as friends so my friendships were with non-Mormons. Leaving the church later on was easier since it was not my social circle like it has always been for my mother who is still a member. I don't wish what happened to me on anyone but what goes around comes around....if those mean girls daughters or grand daughters are treated the way Sal and I were treated, maybe they'll remember their own behavior and feel deeply ashamed at the cruelty they were capable of.

[@IWantToMature85]

Why defend them cheating on their spouses?

[@cateellington6653]

What two beautiful souls these women are.

[@aliclark_33]

I have absolutely loved these two episodes! I am happy that their transition, though it’s had challenges, has gone as smoothly as it has, thus far. Supportive parents, and mostly understanding spouses is quite remarkable. Makes me happy that this is where things are at for them. 🙏🏼 While I have resonated with so much of what each of them have said, I believe that this is not what many of us have experienced; I know I didn’t. I don’t usually talk about this kind of stuff, unless the right people ask me at the right time… lol. My 20 year, post Mormon journey has been between me and my therapist… that said, in hearing their story and being strengthened by it, it’s made me consider opening up about what I have been through with my “still very Mormon family”…and ex husband…how have my kids fared, how did I navigate relationships after being excommunicated? Perhaps others would find strength in knowing there can be a positive outcome to more than one scenario. I do not have an axe to grind with the church, I just know that the way I was raised, in this religion, in small town southern Alberta, has made living authentically an extreme challenge. If feel that you’d like to hear another side to this type of story, I’d be willing to chat with you.

[@beetles1964]

The homeless retreat Lena mentioned sounds like pioneer trek for Mormon kids.

[@cammieowens4687]

What would you say the difference would be between “repression” of sexual desires and consciously “choosing”, with full disclosure of other sexual desires, to live a traditional Biblical sexual life (within marriage between one man and one woman)? Would you say that someone choosing the latter is repressing their sexuality?

[@stobbyl2259]

I usually really enjoy the varied topics and how they are openly discussed on this podcast. However I found the rating discussed at the start of here of the content matter and what disclaimers are to be made about the content offensive. Only when discussing LGTBQ matters has the content been censored before the discussion on the pretext of not being gratuitous or offensive. I guess bias is still prevalent when discussing gay v straight topics, that made me very uncomfortable in that it was made very obvious.

[@kyliesmiles12]

What is the name of Lena and Sal's podcast?

[@merivalefreya7064]

Peace out podcast

[@lisamarie6611]

I am done listening to what my spirit has fought for years...Glory to TMH for opening my eyes to leaving/healing a reprobate mind.

[@chanteltorres5951]

Love it 💙

[@thegreatitudecoach]

Wow. She says it stopped and didn’t happen anymore. Interesting. How does that work?

[@dievans2954]

What's the name of their pod cast?

[@hannahbellxoxo2414]

Peace out

[@lizhoward9754]

Another fascinating interview. As someone who was raised Catholic, I would have LOVED to have heard the story behind the baptism of the nun. I can’t fathom that in a hundred billion years. The only thing I can think of is that the nun didn’t take it seriously and let Lena baptize her to make Lena feel good…..like “play” baptism. I know a Mormon wouldn’t faze me in the least. It wouldn’t be taken seriously

[@IWantToRideMyBike]

It would be really interesting to hear from Sal’s ex husband. He sounds like a good person. It is so crazy that they tell women that they can’t be sexual at all. Ever. Period. Then expect them to be these super sexual beings immediately the day they get married with no information about how anything works