A Much Better Initiative System for DnD 5e

[@H2SO4pyro]

A huge pro for this system is that we dont get 4 players turns in a row so the players arent falling asleep while waiting for their friends to chose their actions. It ensures foes are always doing something so it helps everyone to stay focused on what is happening, making the combats much more vivid.

[@Taking20]

Yes. 100000%. Wish I would have mentioned this.

[@gromaxe]

Yeah, I always think thoroughly before casting fireball

[@THEPELADOMASTER]

People always say this, but then they also say "you should know what you're going to do before your turn starts" or say that they give very limited time to decide. So which is it? Are you falling asleep during other people's turns because they take too much or are they quick? You can't pick both

[@Maverickstyg]

@@THEPELADOMASTER I think you may be combining thousands of opinions as if it's one person. Opinions on initiative vary based on individual playgroup experiences

[@H2SO4pyro]

@@THEPELADOMASTER I don't see any contradiction. Let's summary this way: most people approch combat in a very simple goblin way "punch ennemies, boom boom". We want things to happen to ennemies, allies decisions by themselves tend to not build up that much tension. Keeping allies turns short (making up your mind before your turn) helps at keeping things running and not get the awaiting players bored. Alternating allies and foes' turns ensures there is always some updates to the battlefied to keep in mind, and so that you will change your turn's plan smoothly all along the other characters/ennemies turns, giving you things to keep you focused on the game. Because let's be honnest, almost only healers will have their turn decisions changed based on what their mates do. Tanks and damage dealers mostly care about where the monsters are. Both advices aims at improving the same issues.

[@loxybee2411]

divinity original sin 2 uses a very similar alternating system. highest initiative goes first, then highest from the opposing group, then second highest from the first group , etc etc

[@antongrigoryev6381]

And since the initiative isn't random there, it adds a very nice element to strategize, deciding who of your guys will go after who.

[@efrenenverde]

Huh... I've played DOS2 a bunch and only now realize why my fast characters never had the two first turns lol

[@randomlostman6949]

Brilliant game

[@THEPELADOMASTER]

If you play with other people that's absolutely not true, we've had all our characters go together before/after ebemies

[@WolforNuva]

@@THEPELADOMASTER Maybe this was once the case, but I play with other people all the time and turns still rotate between player and enemy in my games. We often have one person trigger initiative and stall on their turn while everyone else sneaks in and do sneak attacks so we can get at least 1 round where we gang up.

[@Xenoman14]

TheAngryGM worked out a system of making monsters more 'interesting' in combat in the ways you were talking about. They got additional whole turns, weaved between the players turns. They had additional hit point pools, reworked attacks (if it normally had multiattack). He called them 'Paragon' monsters. Worth a look into, I have used them and they did indeed spice up combat.

[@N0-1_H3r3]

The specific initiative system used in Wrath & Glory originated in Star Trek Adventures (which I designed - Ross Watson, the designer of Wrath & Glory is a friend of mine, he borrowed with permission) and can also be seen in Achtung! Cthulh, Dune, and a couple of other 2d20 System RPGs, but even that is just a take on a long history of alternating action order systems - I drew inspiration from the activation rules from the wargame Epic: Armageddon by Jervis Johnson, and on the elective action order rules that first appeared in Marvel Heroic Roleplay in 2011/2012.

[@telarr9164]

I tried this system out in my game on the weekend and I LOVED it. I am playing with a rookie group of players so they didn't really notice the difference that I was weaving all the monster's turns in between theirs in the order. The combat flowed well and the narrative of the encounter worked. "Your turn, my turn, your turn, my turn". The DM is always interracting with the players every 2nd turn. What a simple but great idea!!

[@PhilCoati]

I love the idea of the vampire that moves unbelievable fast, getting that from 2 turns with 30 ft movement and just double attack, instead of 60 ft movement which can result in them just vanishing off the table.

[@colbyboucher6391]

Strahd whenever he's losing: I MUST GO, MY PEOPLE NEED ME

[@bonzwah1]

I actually think of the vampires stat block is one of the better legendary action stat blocks. The legendary actions are all actions from the main list of actions, so it really does give the feel of the vampire taking multiple turns

[@davewilson13]

I call this zipper initiative and we’ve been doing this for a year, it works well. Thanks for he video!

[@DirkMcThermot]

This is great! It’s not far from Lancer’s turn order system where a player always goes first, then the GM picks an enemy to go, then the players pick another player to go next, and so on. It seems you adapted this alternating system to 5e quite well, since it also maintains the rolling for initiative aspect that is somewhat traditional to D&D.

[@JoelFeila]

Yup Lancer uses this it is awesome.

[@julientabulazero103]

I use something very similar but which I think is even a little bit better. A player triggers an encounter : • I ask the triggering player what her or his character is doing and simultaneously ask the other players around the table to roll initiative on the side. • The DC of the initiative check is my monsters highest initiative +10 • If an other player rolls above or equal to the DC, his character is in group A • If an other player rolls below the DC his character is in group B • For the triggering player (who does not get to roll initiative) I decide upon his character’s actions whether he is in group A or B. He has literally 3 seconds to answer. If he is sharp and does something quick, he goes in Group A. If he freezes or does something that take too much time, he goes in group B. Combat starts and the turn goes as follows: 1. Player Group A 2. Monster Group 1 : Half my monsters (I get to choose which one) 3. Player Group B 4. Monster Group 2 : The rest of the monsters Within a given group, players and monsters decide who gets to act first thus fostering cooperation and combinations. No more delaying your action until you get the buff you need before acting. I find this system good to use because it is designed to make the transition between the narration and the encounter seamless. You don’t stop the story to have everybody roll initiative. Instead, you keep talking to the triggering player while the rest of the players roll initiative. It also reward players that take the lead because they get a chance to end in Group A regardless of what their initiative stat says. You also have the added advantage of only have 4 initiative slots to manage while fast characters still get some advantage from a high initiative because they will end up in Group A more often. As a DM, you also have more leeway because you can chose which monster group the monster ends up into. You are not obliged to put all your hellhounds into the first group. If you want to refine it further, you can even say that some very powerful spells or ability can only happen in Player Group B / Monster Group 2 if you want to balance their power by being more slow to use. I personally do not do that because I like simple systems but you could totally do that if you wanted. Feel free to try it or steal it from me.

[@PghArch]

I’ve been playing for 40 years and I don’t recall ever seeing or hearing of this exact formulation. I’m totally convinced. It will be our new rule starting in or next session. Great job, and thanks for testing and reporting on how that went before just throwing it out there.

[@DDCRExposed]

I've used this system before. You can see it built out in the Star Wars: Imperial Assault board game by Fantasy Flight Games. It's a good system but certain spell, lair effects, and legendary actions get a bit whacky. Something I didn't fully flesh out. For lair or environment effects, I just used those as "actors" that got a turn in initiative as well.

[@reactionarydm]

Just found your channel through this comment- I'm very excited to watch some! I'm getting really into comparing monsters between 5e and Pathfinder, so it'll be quite helpful!

[@DDCRExposed]

@@reactionarydm Cool! I hope you find it useful comparing the two systems.

[@liamdownes1475]

I always give the lair it's own initiative, usually near the bottom of the table. Having it near the end of the turn lets me decide whether the lair action happens or not depending on how the party is looking. It's also unpredictable.

[@joshking7803]

Really like the idea of big ancient mythic monsters having more turns per round. My minds goes to the Kraken. It's head, body and arms taking the main turn, and then after the 1st round 2 huge tentacles erupt out of the sea surrounding the players each getting a turn of 1 massive attack, as they slam down on the PCs from different angles.

[@austinburks8707]

Always like this type of encounter! Isn't that just legendary actions though?

[@100brokensticks]

I've done a similar thing specifically for ettins with their two heads and split personalities. I've always split them into 2 initiatives with each head getting one attack of their multi attack and half the movement. It works really well for that creature and that's just splitting the initiative not giving them anything else. I think split initiatives can work really well for certain creatures

[@aedwa021]

Makes me think of some old rpg battles like the cannon in ffv that had a main body plus a few attachments. The attachments had separate attacks and hp pools, and could even regenerate after a while if reduced to 0, but taking down the main body took them out too. I think that could inspire some very interesting and memorable encounters if handled properly, which means I'm not the right one to handle it.

[@kythian]

I don't play D&D anymore, but I do play a bunch of other ones. The initiative system presented here gives me food for thought. Nice presentation.

[@ramzcoldlampin5460]

I started doing basically what you laid out today about three months ago when my players hit level 8. The power increase was just ridiculous with my group of love able power gamers, so I had to find a balance. It has made a noticeable change in the pace and magnitude of each encounter.I haven’t slotted them exactly how you explained it, but I’m definitely gonna try it next game session.

[@ramzcoldlampin5460]

@Taking20 someone is posing as you. 👆🏼

[@jacobs483]

I have been doing this for about a year now, it is especially good for larger groups. I am considering introducing something called “desperation mode” where if one side or the other has more than half of their members down, they gain a second turn in the imitative. I’m hoping this will help keep The battle moving at the end, or give it a “comeback-or-escape” mechanic.

[@ObsidianKnight90]

IIRC the Banner Saga games have a similar mechanic. Normally, the player's units and enemy units alternate taking turns. This means that if you have 6 units and the enemies only have 3 units, they individually get to act twice as often as yours. However, once the enemies are reduced to one remaining unit, after that unit acts ALL of your units get to act. This is to prevent situations where that one surviving unit takes multiple turns to focus-fire one of your characters (such as a character that MUST survive the battle or you lose). It's also good for representing how you've essentially won the battle and it's just cleaning up.

[@DaDunge]

Maybe iff more than three creatures from a single side gets to act after one another another action is given to the highest initiative creature on the other side between the second and third creature.

[@dynestis2875]

So by that point you are rewarding losing

[@jacobs483]

@@dynestis2875 it rewards taking the idea of a “cornered animal” seriously by giving it mechanical weight: whoever is losing acts with greater desperation, which can make things more dangerous. It really serves the pacing and tension of combat.

[@kalindrossel5322]

I like the idea of giving desperation a mechanical value. I would adapt a rule, where as the 2nd last enemy (or PC) was taken out, the last one standing gets 1 immedeat extra turn (they still keep their original turn in their original initiative spot). Will they use its turn to fight despritly, start fleeing, or to surrender?

[@eldoriath1]

This sounds like a good way to handle initiative and making a combat feel more like "everyone is acting at the same time" rather than "hey, the enemy is grouped up now among us, but due to initiative order our caster can ready a fireball and we just disengage and run from the blast zone without the enemy able to react to this".

[@Gossamer3592]

Great idea! I've added this to my list of things that *might* pull me back into 5e one day since it addresses some of my major issues with the system. Thanks.

[@Lycaon1765]

REMINDER FOR THE COMMENTS SECTION: Gloomstalker's dread ambusher feature always happens on your first turn of combat no matter what. Assassin Rogue's assassinate feature requires the target hasn't taken a turn in combat yet. Bugbear's surprise attack feature requires the target is surprised. Surprise is a CONDITION which means you don't do anything on your turn and don't have a reaction until your turn in combat passes. Only the assassinate feature would take any sort of hit from this system, and that's only if there isn't enough monsters for your party and if you roll bad on init. If you rolled bad on init in the normal initiative system it'd be the same deal that you wouldn't get assassinate. If you have at least a number of enemies equal to your party size then this new system guarantees assassinate. If you thought dread ambusher, the bugbear's surprise attack, or surprise would be affected by this, then you've been running those features/rules wrong fyi :v

[@the.amarok]

Mostly a good comment, but you stop being surprised as soon as you take your first turn, putting the bugbear on the same side as the assasin.

[@OverpaidSlacker]

This is very helpful - thank you. A question -- how to handle "mid-combat" surprise. Hypothetical - the PCs have engaged a group of enemies (initiative has been rolled, the fight is on), but the PCs are clustered under a large tree (let's say). Hiding in the tree are several other enemies that have not yet made their presence known and whom the PCs haven't noticed. When the still-hidden enemies drop down onto the PCs, should the PCs be able to use reactions during that round against the new enemies that have "surprised" them? What if the enemies in the tree wait a round or two to drop in (maybe waiting to pounce for ideal PC placement)? Can the ambushers just jump in, or should the DM have (secretly) assigned them an initiative order when combat began. If I'm a PC, in a fight for my life, focused on everything in front of me, and something I hadn't noticed falls out of the sky behind (or on) me, there's an argument to be made that I'm quite surprised. How to do this fairly? Both to the NPCs that have pulled off this tactic, and to the PCs, so it's not a de facto party wipe? I'd like to challenge the PCs w/o it feeling like cheating for the bad guys. Thanks in advance.

[@the.amarok]

@@OverpaidSlacker @JP Paraschos They gain just the usual bonus of hiding, otherwise rogues would split of mid combat to come back in /only come in in the second round for additional surprises. Additionally per the PHB, during a combat everyone is assumed to perceive all of their surroundings.

[@Lycaon1765]

@@OverpaidSlacker I would just give the ambushers advantage on their actions they wish to do. And just let them jump in as if they were holding their actions to do stuff. I might say they also get to move, especially if they were waiting for multiple rounds. Then have them in initiative after they've finished their ambush, as is normal by whichever initiative system you're using.

[@OverpaidSlacker]

@@the.amarok Thanks for the reply. I've struggled with the PHB's statement that you cited. What does that mean mechanically? Once in combat in a room, they're immediately aware of all traps? Obviously not. They immediately see ambushers lurking in the rafters (or a tree)? I don't think so. What about certain plants that look exactly normal (harmless?) until they attack - they can't *know* that's an assassin vine (that hasn't done anything yet) up there just b/c they're "in combat". But I think the traditional bonus of hiding is probably mechanically the way to do it. Maybe add that the ambushers wouldn't proc Opportunity Attacks - for that round, just to give the ambushers a little sugar for planning/executing the ambush. I don't want to *kill* my PCs, but I want them to be more wary and aware of consequences of inattention, and to respect the fact that the enemies are also smart and playing to win.

[@mixvideoproductions]

The way I've handled it is more or less this system, granted silently. Most of the time players haven't even noticed enemies go between them, and for a boss style encounter I've had things like beholders roll two initiatives-- one for a damage based action, one for a utility based one. Split the movement between both actions, and only having things like legendary actions reset on the higher of the two.

[@MisterWretham]

I have to say that I'm excited to try this out. Moderating the nuclear initiative has been on my mind recently. I'll be trying this out as soon as I can talk to the players about it.

[@koreankodiak6865]

I use two different initiative systems in my campaign depending on the encounter. For smaller combats I use Individual Int, of big battles (10+ enemies) I use Team Int from Classic D&D.

[@Griffin256]

I did something similar in a game I was running. I was DMing a group of 4 and I decided to introduce a combo system. The PCs would roll initiative and pair off. I would roll initiative for the boss to determine who went first. Then I would do let’s say the boss, 2 PCs, 2 enemies, 2 PCs and 2 enemies. The fun started where the players that were paired up would go together at the same time. And if they decided to do a “combo” move where one player could do something the impact the partners attack they would roll damage for both attacks and get a bonus for creativity. For example, the Fighter using an action to throw a barrel of gunpowder at the same time the wizard uses a spell to ignite it. The damage from the spell plus the damage of the explosion plus a bonus d4 or d6 for creativity. Then move on to the enemies, who had the same advantages. I would let the PCs decide how creative the “combo” was based off of a d4 for somewhat creative, d6 for creative, and d8 for very creative.

[@nicka3697]

I looked at the title and thought I don't need this initiative works ok it's an exciting moment in the game. Then I watched the video and wow. This looks really fun and easy to implement.

[@Taking20]

Glad I 'sold you' on it... hahaha

[@GlitchWitchNyx]

When I brought up Dungeon Craft's "no initiative system", my group wanted nothing to do with it. This though... I think this will go over well.

[@williamderkatzen8987]

Was going to mention Dungeoncrafts’ no initiative… the horror every time I bring it up to players!

[@davidrose7938]

I use it sometimes when I want to keep everyone engaged and moving the fight fast. I have the players roll for initiative to see who will roll the d6 vs my d6 for the group initiative, working down the initiative list each round. It’s not an every fight thing for my table but lets my change it up for the engagement. It’s worked for us so far.

[@williamderkatzen8987]

@Winged Hussar this case would still work. If I remember correctly, the opening is a movement phase that archers attack while melee position themselves. In the case of zombies, they’re still “mentally” in their movement phase while the players resolve their attacks. It kinda helps to have learned on E1 where Dex was more for AC adjustment than initiative…

[@joem1480]

I just shared this video with my players on the discard I am really excited about this I like the sound of this a lot I am hoping they will agree to give this a try this really sounds interesting and is one of the better takes on initiative that I have heard in a very long time

[@Taking20]

Thanks for sharing!

[@jeffm9770]

I honestly don't see the problem with the current initiative system. This system seems better than a lot I've seen

[@benjaminholcomb9478]

I like this a lot! On the note of the double turn segment, my cousin tried it while DMing for a group of 10(?) Players. From what I've heard is it worked really well

[@nikomarazes]

Sounds amazing! Definitely worth a try. Like you mentioned, we've all had big fights that ended way too soon without even having a chance to have fun as the DM. You know what you're talking about. Thanks for the effort :)

[@Taking20]

Too kind!

[@ookazi1000]

The key think I think you've hit on here is the initiative pattern, but it's more flexible than you've described. It doesn't help wit the big dragon problem, but it can help even out or mechanical que at flavor. Say, you've got three players (P) and six monsters (M). You're ordering would be PMPMPMMMM; which is probably good enough, but I think a more even distribution would be more neutral PMMPMMPMM. From there there are two things to imagine; faster monsters and slower monsters: faster monsters would head up the initiative, so if you've go a lot, shifting the pattern ABBBABBAB would be a subtle way to convey that (more players and monsters make it more possible to be subtle, and similarly, slower moving monster might shift down the pattern, ABABBABBB. To that end, I'd want to assign each monster I use with a 'initiative teir' probably based on their initiative modifier yeah, where the more high initative monsters there are, the more front loaded the pattern is and the more low initative monsters the more backloaded. Lastly, there's the consideration of when you mod(players, monster)≠ 0. For that, I'd get the initative set up for a selection of monsters with mod=0, and then load the rest into the pattern based on high mid or low initative. So a patter with three players (A), six hellhounds (B high initative) and two earth golems (C, low initative) might look like ABBBABBBACC rather that ABABABBBBCC which is how I've interpreted what you described.

[@Taking20]

Try it and let me know how it goes. You're thinking outside the box.

[@ookazi1000]

@@Taking20 I'd love to, but alas I have no friends to play D&D wit let alone GM for.

[@franbh94]

In an old homebrew game a DM handed out a notebook and said "This is the Journal. Keep it up to date with the in game details and it will help you in battle". Basically, if up to date, it enforced something similar: We always started first and the Journal wielder (Leader from now on), would choose which member of the party goes first. Then, other creature from the enemies goes next (the Leader doesn't get to choose who). Then we go back and forth until no creatures are left. Simple, elegant and it estimulated teamwork imo. Right now, I'm just thinking in enforcing 1 rule from Pathfinder 2e: When dropped to 0 HP, your initiative changes so now you go right before the creature that knocked you down. Reason: To stop the "KO lockdown". We all have seen this: A BBEG knocks down someone but the knocked down goes right after the BBEG. No matter how many Healing Words you use, the BBEG will always knock down again that PC before they get a chance to do anything.

[@rolfsoldaat]

I typically just have enemies treat downed PCs who get healed as still being downed until they show "signs of life". Typically that happens when their turn comes up, unless they use their reaction for something. Of course some creatures will just attack downed PCs anyway depending on circumstance, but still.

[@ryanbritten6784]

This is pretty much the system I've been using for a year or so, but I only have two PCs roll Initiative and they take the first turn for their team. I let the PCs and monsters switch their turns and to deal with concentration spells I simply told them that if they used the turn system to get more out of their spells the enemies would too. Death saves are at the end of of the round. I think it works so much better.

[@TheTwitchyBrownGuy]

In person I was a huge fan of group initiative, all players goes and all monsters go. This allowed the players to coordinate, I found the frontline players (fighters, monks, paladins) started talking and would take their turns at the same time while the ranged group (rangers and spellcasters) let their projectiles go, while the healer kindly waited for the others to finish rolling before she gave out health lol. It worked extremely well but requires the right group. Now I use foundry vtt online and use a Mod to reroll Initiative every round and that adds a whole bunch of butt clenching fun when a round ends and players find their new position in the turn order lol

[@thelaughingman4791]

In regards to giving monsters multiple turns I'll share what I have done with some success. Sometimes for monsters that I want to be big challenges I double their hp and when their hp is dropped to half they ''enrage" and begin taking full turns twice per round (I give them their second turn on their original initiative count -10). This is roughly equivalent to fighting a pair of that monster normally and I try to balance along those lines.

[@andrewroyer3090]

I've been doing a version of this for the last 3-4 years as DM that I never even considered to be different than the rule lol. I roll initiative for the BBEG and any important enemies (big bads assistant maybe), and then I randomly sprinkle in the remaining enemies as I see fit. If everyone rolls low they get most of the enemies going before them and vice verse. Sometimes a few players will go back to back and I let them take their turns together. Other times 3-5 enemies go together. Pretty much every BBEG I run has legendary actions to fix economy at this point. I use colville actions for that. It works well.

[@frederickcoen7862]

My solution for a recent "boss fight" was to essentially double the monster's movement and actions, then split them up into 4 SPECIFIC groups, every 5 "initiative points". It rolled initiative normally, getting a 17. It got a normal multi-attack and a half move on 17. On 12, it got a special attack/lair action. On 7, it got a half move, and either recharged a defense or got a single attack. On 2 it got another single attack, or the other half move. Coincidentally... the players went on 15, 11, 3, and 1! So it functioned *basically* like Legendary Actions anyway. But it felt like the monster was reacting to the players as they chased it through its lair, rather than just "you acted, so it gets a free swing now". [Posting my actual feedback to your idea in a separate comment.]

[@Jackevolution88]

What i'm used to do in my game is to set a Combat Initiative DC. Only players makes initiative rolls, who pass the DC act before the enemies, who don't pass the DC act after the enemies. Then i let the players organize their turn as they want.

[@mauikun7623]

This sounds really interesting and i have asked my DM if we can test this (probably first in a oneshot) really like the concept

[@tc0930]

This sounds good to me. I would like to give it a shot. It's a good way to make the BB more impactful and I like the back-and-forth. And even the minion mob might be able to do more with all of them being together at the bottom like that.

[@blorpymcnornor2415]

I use something similar in old school dnd (WWN/OSE). 1d6 (or 1d8) team initiative, and then the number that they beat the opposing team by is the number of characters who can act before the other side has a chance to act. So, say the PCs roll 5 and the monsters roll 3, then 2 PCs would act first, after which the monsters and PCs alternate. If it’s a tie then actions are considered simultaneous, meaning a felled monster would still have a chance to attack, potentially taking the PC down with them.

[@Ginga6]

I feel like this is neat, but I am wondering if this is why Legendary Actions exist. Also, sandwiching player and monster actions can work to either increase engagement or just make it take longer before a player gets to take their turn. Another way to tackle lopsided initiative order could be taking a page from PF2e and at the start of combat adding modifiers for Stealth or Perception depending on if one side detected the other first as well adding modifiers for the “posture” of the two groups such as being alert, relaxed, distracted, defender or attacker, etc. Final note, sometimes a well-prepared attack should result in an enemy being quickly overwhelmed, that takes planning and execution outside of the initiative order though. The result should be higher probability for a sweep, if the approach taken is appropriate. An “I go, you go” system removes that tactical possibility.

[@lacdannan243]

Interesting idea and I’ll consider playtesting it in my group sometime. I switched to a d6 initiative system i saw on a KZbin channel in my Pathfinder 1e game. One player rolls a d6 and I roll a d6. Highest number goes first. Let’s say that’s the players, first everyone declares their action, then everyone rolls at the same time. It GREATLY speeds up things at the table. People aren’t sitting around waiting for someone else to do math. The wizard can buff or nuke before the tank engages without anyone holding their turn. If both sides roll at the same time, both sides act at the same time. This causes more concentration checks as the wizard may take an arrow while casting a spell. Initiative is rolled each round, so it’s possible the players get to act twice. It’s also possible the mobs act twice in a row. Makes combat more dynamic. Ultimately, it speeds things up greatly, makes combat more dynamic, and keeps my players engaged throughout the entire combat. It’s been a boon.

[@markpowell5228]

Thanks, man, for this re-working of Initiative. I run a 5e game for 4 men and a PF1e game for 4 teenagers; the combat bog-down has been killing us. This system is a great option! I've also used one [I call it "scramble initiative"] in which the highest rolling PC & then highest rolling BBEG always go 1st and 2nd. After that it's completely random!! Roll every round. Tends to keep people focused. Peace.

[@The_True_one]

In the current game I am running, it is a dnd magical apocalypse adventure and the players are having fun. I am currently giving the corrupted creatures random made up abilities, but I had not considered giving them multiple initiatives. Thanks for that idea, I am stealing it.

[@braiantadei9378]

It sounds like another cool thing about this system is that, all of a sudden, trying to bring down a minion is more important, to "gain" one initiative order against the bad guys. Less focus-fire towards the main rival, and more spread-out tactics.

[@mod5000]

What do you think of having excess enemies divided (as evenly as possible) between the enemy initiatives instead of all piled at the very bottom of the initiative counter? That way if there are many monsters, they aren't just piled at the bottom of the initiative counter.

[@Tawleyn]

I was thinking the same thing. I believe the general idea is to reduce this occurrence of large numbers of enemies per encounter, but it's still nice to have a lawnmower encounter every now and then to show off your players' power. That said, the first excess monster gets slotted 1 above the bottom, then the second highest roll gets to go at the same time as the first highest. Then collapse upward like an accordion until there are no more excess monsters.

[@kalindrossel5322]

Yes, one could create "mob-enemies". Combine the HP of 2 (or more) enemies to 1 "mob-enemy". It moves as 1, it attacks 2 times (or more) and when the HP are reduced by the amount of a single entity, it loses 1 attack. A nice bonus feature of "mob-enemies" is what normally would be access damage is now pumped into the other enemies from the mob. So a smiting paladin, or the sneak attack of a rouge could kill multiple enemies at once creating a pseudo AoE for melee combatants.

[@DNGNDriver]

A bit tangential to the topic of the video but with my most recent big campaign I was in a college classroom, so I wrote all the initiatives on the blackboard. I counted up hit points next to the monsters' listings, and when one died I crossed it out. The physicality helped a lot!

[@davidlewis8814]

Thanks for shouting out for Fantasy Grounds. I’ve been playing roughly half of my games as a player on Fantasy Grounds, and I have only DMed using it. While it is not necessarily intuitive for me (technology never is) once I figured it all out, it’s been pretty friggin sweet.

[@LtCdrRoyFokker]

I think it's a great idea and, like you, have seen the alternating initiative used in other game systems with no ill effects. One thing I used to do when the players were facing a single BBEG is split up the single enemies turn into two halves as well. It might be move on one initiative count and special action on another (like a dragon's breath weapon) or half move and attack then a second half move and attack with a multiattack creature. One side bonus was that the melee BBEG didn't have to choose one character to wallop with it's full activation and instead gave the player a chance to fall back on their own turn even if the BBEG happened to win initiative while keeping the rest of the party on edge since they might be next as well.

[@darrellbrown964]

Wow. I've been something similar for about a year. But i just started doing it, no conversation with my players. I rolled one monster, jotted my players in the init order, and internally thought " I could use a monster here, here, here, and here. Done" I've not been asked about my initiative order. I do sometimes have 2 PCs and 2 monsters go in a row. I run it by 'feel' with what i believe will be interesting and engaging. Also, once init is set, it didn't change. If i get reinforcements, i do another look at the gaps, and refill them. My players tell me often how fun my combats are, and how ever changing they can be. Thank you for codifying what i do by feel.

[@robrekless]

Your videos have helped me a lot. This might be the best one I have seen you make yet.

[@Sarnican]

Awesome idea! I'm about to test an 'Alternity' style system where combat is divided into phases - Marginal, Ordinary, Good, Amazing. All combatants in the same phase act at the same time, and can only take one action per phase. You go through each phase in sequence until everyone has acted. Hoping it works just as well as it does in Alternity!

[@shonx1462]

Working on a TTRPG myself but coming from a less experienced with D&D background and more video game basis myself and this is exactly what I've been searching for. I've found initiatives that were too nebulous like "go when you like" and make the DM's job a nightmare or more standard stuff. I like the simplicity of this that lets a DM focus on what they want to do instead of the minutia of tracking numbers and like you said, having to deal with either getting dumped on early or having to pull back to avoid a TPK Too many systems put the onus on the DM and make them work instead of letting them play. 100% using this. *insert YOINK sound effect here*

[@TheDreamburner]

I quite like this concept, and it might blend well with an idea I've tried with creatures that have Legendary Actions, which is to give them "Legendary turn" in which they perform said action AND they have a choice to perform a reaction, a movement, or an action. "Legendary turns" happen at 10 counts less than the creature's Initiative total, or at count 1 when that cannot apply. I don't let monsters use the Legendary turn to cast more than one magic spell in the entirety of the initiative cycle or to use more than one non-attack action block action, and this often covers a LOT of the issues with inflicting most of the end of turn saves and so on. I also don't count the end of a creature's turn until the end of their Legendary turn, which resolves many of these conflicts moreso. I have had the problem, though, that this means that creatures like a dragon can bite, claw, claw, tail whip in their main turn, then bite, claw, claw, and tail whip on their Legendary turn and that is a FATAL amount of harm when focused on any one creature, most times, so I simply opt to make the Legendary turn action only capable of one attack, not a full attack, just as a DM ruling for myself to prevent annihilating my player in one turn.

[@Wardriven1124]

this is like perfect timing. about to start a new campaign. just recommended this to my dm for consideration.

[@Taking20]

Glad you dig it

[@randydoffing3204]

I like it! Sorry for the late response. I don't know how I missed this video when you first published it. I just finished a long campaign with a party of mostly newbies. I can't tell you how disappointed I was when there was an encounter with monsters they had never seen before only to be disappointed because my monsters didn't roll a high enough initiative. All I could do was watch as 4-6 players went first and wiped them out before they could see how cool these monsters were! As suggestion for lair and legendary actions (and, I'm kind of stealing this from theDMLair), he suggested that one of these actions should include movement. After I ran my big boss fight, I'm thinking they could just be another attack action. In our final boss fight, the legendary and lair actions didn't effect the players that much. They were a mixed party of 12 to 14 level characters and were well prepared. After the fact, I felt like if the boss could have done another attack action during the round, it would have made it more epic. Just my 2 cents.

[@TheMmiller692001]

I like it. I use above vtt so I will add in tokens in the fog for the lair actions. I like the players seeing the boss have the extra turns. Thanks for this idea!

[@andrewi4231]

I like this idea. To your concern about making your big enemies feel deadlier, for my BBEGs (or just enemies size Large in general) I usually give them an Action option I call “lethal multiattack” that helps big enemies feel much deadlier. My description uses the template of: “The monster makes x weapon attacks, at least one of which must be made on its turn. The others may be made instead at the end of another creature’s turn along with 5 feet of reserved move speed, used solely for the purpose of closing the gap between the monster and its target. Movement in this manner does not prompt opportunity attacks.”

[@beezeejo]

First off, I appreciate your content Cody, you've helped me grow as a DM over the many years I've followed your channel. So thank you! While this sounds cool, I fear that this solution will throw off the already messed up encounter calculations in 5E. How do you account for legendary/lair actions some creatures have that kick in between turns (to compensate for the difference in initiative)? I hate to be that guy but the fact that we have to homebrew such basic things as initiative has me looking more and more at other systems, specifically Pathfinder. And I hated all the math bloat from that systems first edition. However, they really put alot of thought into the 2nd Ed and fixed things that 5E still struggles with (encounter balance, magic item prices, game economy, martial vs caster imbalance) . I really wish WOTC would have consulted content creators/experienced DMs like you, Nerd Immersion and Matt Colville to get real solutions to common problems that One D&D still can't resolve. Until then I'm afraid we're going to keep trying to homebrew ways to make high end combat interesting. Edited for punctuation

[@grimdagoblinmain]

My idea for those boss monsters is Legendary Initiative. So, they roll for normal initiative and then also roll for legendary Initiative which is rolled without modifier and works just like the revised initiative. This would act like a nerfed second turn, it would vary depending on the creature what they could do. So, they have a mix of what they can normally do. A fast creature like a vampire might just have a full second turn with movement and everything, but a beholder might be able to only shoot another beam or move but not both. The dragon can't breath weapon but can claw at someone and move 15ft. Legendary Actions would have to be revised for this, but maybe a creature can use some of its legendary actions on this legendary turn. Maybe like, normal turn, Legendary turn where it can do 1 legendary action plus something else, and then one legendary action at the end of the round.

[@kalindrossel5322]

Oh yess. I like this method in theory and am eager to test it out. I (as a GM) will give it the following twist though: I will ask my players to roll for initiative before we start the session, the player with the highest initiative will be seated to my left, ascending clockwise. This way, the initiative order is easy to remember (starting with the GM or the player to its left and following up clockwise), and there is an even faster transition into combat. Also: you can rearrange the seat/initiative order during a break.

[@AlphaNerdCosplay]

I would love to see (and have tried playing around with) Big Bad Bosses having multiple partial turns in a round. To me a final encounter should be the party against a single enemy that's been built up and I don't want to have to deal with cannon fodder to balance it. This is probably the biggest issue I have with 5e over 3.5e and would LOVE to see it fixed somehow without it feeling too unbalanced. Can't wait to see the follow up video for "groups vs. single boss fights"!

[@IITHEIISHARKII]

Love this definitely going to bring it up with my group. This will definitely help keep people on task and the combat flowing.

[@missspectra]

I think a really solid way to emphasize a threat in a system like this is to give an extra turn for an enemy for every 10 points in CR, so 1 turn for 0-9, two turns for 10-19, 3 turns for 20-29, and 4 turns for those god tier 30+ big boys.

[@Smashblood101]

That is an awesome idea

[@r0flgal0re]

This is great. As an experienced gamer, but new DM, I am very thankful for stuff like this. It's gold.

[@ZekariusZetorian]

Something I'm toying with for my Monster Hunter themed campaign is giving the monsters actions that have effects that reverberate down the initiative count. A ZInogre (a large canyne-esque lightning based monster) has an attack where he calls down lightning bolts in a line in front of him. In the games, they don't all come down instantly, but in rapid succession. How I would make this ability work is have the lightning bolt (something akin to call lightning) plop down directly in front of it on it's turn, then have each successive bolt (probably no more than 5 total, each a little farther away) happen on the initiative count 2 counts after the previous bolt. This gives characters who have a turn coming up the chance/choice to possibly move out of the way. But I do really like this alternating system. Might be worth trying it out.

[@AreRiksaasen]

I used this in several incarnations of "Traveller" (it was in "Megatraveller" first IIRC), with the addition that side A could use their activation to force side B to activate one of their models. And it was possible to do "wait". Important with deadly firearms combat.

[@AJBernard]

I'm primarily a Fantasy Grounds player... this seems like added work for the DM, who has to stop and reorder the monster's initiatives, but it does seem to solve that "clumping" problem you spoke of. I'll give this a try in my Curse of Strahd campaign and see how it works. Thanks, Cody!

[@TheFictionMan]

I'll try to make an extension for it. What should it be named?

[@AJBernard]

@@TheFictionMan interleaved initiative

[@AJBernard]

@@TheFictionMan I'd be interested in trying it: I am "Merkvah" on the FG forums

[@Taking20]

@TheFictionMan How about the "Taking20 Zipper"? 😂

[@ChocolateFishBrains]

I borrowed from other game systems for my initiative homebrew - use a skill roll based on the situation at hand for the roll (stealth if you're sneaking, Athletics in a chase scene, etc.), and players can choose which of them goes on what initiative counts that they rolled (player A hot a higher count but they decide it is better if player B or C goes on that count).

[@copperflamex]

I love this tweak. I still dislike how Dex is tied to Initiative the same way Wisdom is tied to Perception (making those stats impact combat more than others).

[@Comicsluvr]

I like this idea and I'm going to mention it to my party, with one small change: Instead of ALL of the 'leftover' critters being tacked onto the end of the order, divide them (roughly) evenly between the players. So you might (for example), have the BBEG go, then the highest player, then 2 minions, then a player, 2 more minions, and so on. Leftover minions would be at the end as usual.

[@Taking20]

We wanted to K.I.S.S., but let me know how it goes.

[@Yarradras]

In one of my 5e group we reroll initiative order every round. It's on roll20 so it does not slow down the game, as it is done by macro. Generally, that gives high dex character an edge. It also spices up the game, because you cannot plan for everything. We keep the end of turn save rules etc. exactly as written. Never had an issue with that.

[@Nerdonis]

The video game Battletech does something similar where within initiative passes, each team takes turns going. This actually makes having more groups in combat a lot easier to manage

[@manicdan481]

One of my favorite things from Battletech (the video game, never played the tabletop) is adding dodge from moving, and I really want to say you gain 2AC if you move more than half your max distance this turn. Because in my games people just stand still too much because there is never a benefit just because you moved.

[@frederickcoen7862]

@@manicdan481 My game has a "Combat Option" called "Erratic Movement". It basically is "half move + Dodge", as a Move Action. You have to move at least 15', each square costs double, and imposes Disadvantage against ranged attacks. Isn't this the same as "Move Action + Dodge Action"? Yes, if that's all you want to do. But this option allows you to "spy roll" between cover, and still pop up to shoot back, or heal your ally when you arrive, or whatever. It doesn't do anything to help you against a melee opponent, though - just as Evasion does nothing in the BattleTech videogame against melee attacks! (well, maybe against DFA...)

[@pw3829]

I’ve been doing this! I’m a pretty new DM, so I started doing this because it’s easier to track. But yes! I’ve experienced a lot of the other benefits you mentioned

[@RunAzazelRun]

Quick idea I just had, jumping off the double turn thing you mentioned. Working with your alternate activations system. Something like the highest cr creature in combat, or leader of the group of enemies, can go twice in a turn order, based on party size. So the enemy with 6 or 7 player party might be able to go again after 2 or 3 players in the party go. But versus a group of 3 they would only go once per turn order but with 4-5 players they would go after the 3 or 4 player went. I'm sure there is a way to kind of balance it based off party size and when you can go. Maybe even add a roll at the start of the turn order to see if you get they extra turn, on a 5 or 6 similar to the recharge abilities creatures get. It could be called legendary initiative or something 🤔

[@wizardsling]

I was skeptical at first, but you sold me! I'm going to try this.Thanks!

[@Taking20]

Hope you like it!

[@txdude19d]

One of the better initiative systems that I have seen on KZbin. Nice work sir!

[@donfolstar]

I like it! Back and forth keeps things moving. To that end, I would change the bit at 6:55 where players start clumping up to have the lowest initiative minion (6) leap up to the slot of the dead minion (2). Maybe that goblin was getting his pants on when combat started but is now surging into action. Or maybe I said so, so deal with it players who probably didn't even notice. Preserves the back and forth longer, breaks up the monster mash, and adds some unpredictability.

[@JJV7243]

I'll have to try this. Its a really straight forward change and makes combat always "more even" and less swingy.

[@jakodar]

This sounds like a great idea! One of the biggest problems at our table is that some players take really cool and massive actions with their characters who have high DEX and INI rolls while other players sit … wait … wait and when it is FINALLY their turn, their actions don’t seem very important because the BBEG is either too wounded or dead or the other PC’s are beyond help (saving) or it is time for everyone to run away. And the player gets bored, discouraged and disconnected. We will talk it over and give it a shot! 😎

[@rbarrett111]

Hey, thanks, I pretty much love the initiative thing. Gonna use that from now on. It'll give the back and forth, as you say, and probability will take care of who TENDS to go early in the round. You were talking about description and how that can become a challenge. I'm waiting on my copy of "The Tome of Adventure" design by Mythmere Games for just that purpose.

[@EnjeoLineMedia]

My homebrew fix for initiative is Bosses get a fixed initiative of 18. All other initiatives and encounters are as designed to allow players to enjoy the occasional random stomp or rogue powerful encounter

[@LordOz3]

It might mesh well with my current system where monsters have a static Initiative (10 plus bonuses), and fighty/stabbie types on both sides add there proficiency bonus to their initiative. Regarding boss monsters getting smoked before they can do cool stuff - try giving them some player abilities. A dragon with fighter's action surge or a vampire with rogue's uncanny dodge might turn things up a notch.

[@jdubz8173]

Makes sense to me. I'm going to give it a try in my future campaigns. Thanks for the tip!

[@tylercrum]

I’ve given some of my “legendary” monsters 2 turns before! It REALLY freaked the players out (in a good way). Biggest adjustments I made: I took away the monster’s Multiattack, or limited it to 2 attacks per turn. And I stipulated that when taking two turns, the creature’s speed was halved, so they’re not always ridiculously, unrealistically fast for their creature type.

[@SteveBonario]

Going to give the initiative system you described a try. It sounds great. Matt Coleville has a video about adding actions to villains. I tried his idea and It worked amazingly well. I use it only for solo monsters or key villains. Basically, you craft extra reactions and bonus actions the monster can take between player turns. They don't have to be about extra damage -- instead they can be extra movement, debuffs, calling in allies, helping minions overcome failed saves, giving minions extra movement between turns, etc. The key is to craft them such that they add to the flavor, style and character of the solo or villain, giving it a more unique sense of what the players are up against. I did this with the first villain in Rime of the Frostmaiden (Sephek Kaltro) and the players still defeated him but not before he displayed more than a few cool "ice-centric" abilities that helped foreshadow the kinds of things the players would come to face later in that campaign.

[@SaraGrapes]

Started implementing this system in my game. Another great use: the bad guy takes a look at the pile of dead minions and decides to "nope" out of there. If all the players rolled higher initiative, the BBEG would be surrounded by players or shot down before they can even move. But instead we get a nail biting chase through twisting corridors with checks to see which way it went. When they finally killed her just as she reached the child hostages, they were cheering. Great game.

[@bakenpancakes]

I am really keen on using this. I will discuss it with my party next session to see if they are keen.

[@Tronikart]

As someone that went through lots of initiatives, this looks like one of my favorites, Lancer RPG/ICON initiative, only there players always have the first turn of the combat and each "side" (GM and players) chooses who goes next on their own group. I tried it for D&D and worked like a charm, the only thing was what you mention about the Alert Feat, some features and bonuses for initiative got lost in the process, but since they got to choose when they'd go, it wasn't that big of an issue. You do keep the "roll for initiative" trope alive with this one tho

[@matthewblanchard9805]

Narrative Dice systems like Star Wars, Genesys, etc all use a version like you were discussing from the stream where each player rolls initiative and those results become a slot that is available to the entire group to discuss and decide who goes in what order. You indicated you thought that would slow down combat, having tried this in a non FFG game I can say that it honestly didn't make combat run longer - it actually shortened it and increased the tactical cohesion of the group.

[@cnd0011]

I’ll recommend this for a 1 shot next time my group has one. Very interesting idea and sounds like a great wrinkle. Will report back

[@chrisrydburg9741]

This works. I was skeptical at first but I'm 100% bought in.

[@relecor]

My table alternates between D&D and Shadowrun 4e. I want to try this out with both of them. I really like how this sounds.

[@Mikowmer]

I've played an alternative system which used an action wheel. Every action had a cost and would move you around the wheel by that amount. So, you could do lots of little actions or one big action in the same amount of time. Ties were broken by who was on that spot on the wheel first. While you could only do one action per turn, you ended up getting a lot of turns.

[@palladin9479]

It's a common system used in other games adapted for table top DnD. It prevents the PC's from focus burning down the boss or instantly wiping all the trash mobs out and instead can lead to a long back and forth fight where the boss and each add has meaning. Suddenly controlling those adds becomes a much bigger part of the parties strategy.

[@gallaros9]

A small thing I do with grouped unites (mob combat rules) is that I give them a morale DC being their average wisdom +1×units (feeds into the strength in numbers idea). Every time one or multiple units die or get incapacited, the dm rolls a d20 + the total number of dead/incapacitated units from the band. If it beats the DC, they route. You can even do crits and fails with 20s leading to full-on desertion and fleeing, while 1s could lead to a regrouping or thematically fitting event. My Players loved it so much; they ended up employing npcs of their own to have small-scale skirmishes in the back while they fight the big bad of the day. Extra rules. If your units are intelligent and have a clear hierarchy during combat, I do some extra math, like adding the leaders Charisma modifier to the DC and imposing advantage rolls for the leader dying.

[@cloudstrife8]

Sounds interesting, I may give it a try if players are receptive. Given how they're steamrolled most challenges as of late, I don't see them being against it.

[@ianmcmillan2340]

This is brilliant. It seems to solve a lot of things and I plan on testing this in my games.

[@CJ-qv2hl]

A DM and a player in a friend's game. I will likely implement this in my game and shared this with my DM friend. Thanks for the idea

[@mrosskne]

prowlers and paragons : players go first, then everyone else. it's so much better.

[@AxidentalDM]

I like the 2d20 initiative system from Star Trek Adventures. It is similar to what you propose but there is no need to roll dice. The PCs go first in initiative unless there is a compelling reason for the NPCs to go first (e.g. springing a trap) and then it alterates back-and-forth between players and GM. Players decide what order they go in and it can change every round of combat. Once everyone has gone once, then you start another round.

[@monkibro]

I always thought of it more as a turn-based strategy game system (á lá Fire Emblem). Experimenting with that in my own game!