A response to

[@CalvinTheCarnotaurus]

Tyrannotherium also sent me several articles when I asked for sources, but I reckon most of them are just looking at larger numbers on Wikipedia and doing a hasty generalization, because if one specimen turns out to be 900 pounds based on one method of estimating weight, that totally means they all were that weight.

[@tyrannotherium7873]

Well, like I said before I don’t trust Wikipedia at times also, there’s another lion that is smaller than the American lion, but also larger than the African lion that’s the cave lion

[@GEK0dev]

Always here for the at most highest quality footage ever recorded from Calvin🗿

[@CalvinTheCarnotaurus]

Indeed. All 20 pixels.

[@GEK0dev]

@@CalvinTheCarnotaurus Being able to count the pixels is like looking at a 8k 360hz monitor, Incredible

[@nightiever]

Despite the popular myth that the largest specimens reached 1.2m at the shoulder, and 2.5m long, that is disproportionately long/short, depending on how you look at it. Taking reference from an individual from the modern lion, that fits in the proportionate range, the largest specimen (GSL of 467.5mm; CBL of 424.3mm) would have stood at about ~1.4m at the shoulder, and ~2.49m long in head-body length. There was a P. atrox skeleton measured showing near-identical proportions to a standard modern lion also. As for the body mass, using isometry, the largest specimen would have weighed about ~423.9kg or over that, adding in the slightly more robust build and slightly thicker fur all around the body plus other factors. However, isometry has proven to result in flaws, as in the case of the tiger. It resulted in underestimates for the larger specimens compared to the base. As for the average they used not only lions but tigers and jaguars to get 255kg; using lions only the result would be lower. Then there was a study that estimated the males at ~248kg, and reaching a 457kg at max.

[@Jimmoieie]

Great video

[@CalvinTheCarnotaurus]

Thank you.

[@tyrannotherium7873]

3:05 what music was that by the way?

[@zakkmarchant]

A lifetime of war by Sabaton

[@tyrannotherium7873]

@@zakkmarchant interesting

[@Jimmoieie]

People often say that the American lion was 523 kgs based on a 2012 study. However, this is not true. The 2012 study in question didn’t estimate the American lion to be 523 kgs (DeSantis et al. 2012). The 2012 study was referring to Anyonge’s (1993) estimates when they stated that estimates for the American lion range to 523 kgs in males; we know this because they mentioned his study in their references (DeSantis et al. 2012). However, Anyonge’s (1993) estimates were proven to be gross over exaggerations by Christiansen and Harris (2005). In Christiansen and Harris (2005), the mass range of S. fatalis was significantly lower than Anyonge’s (1993) estimate of 347-442 kgs for S. fatalis. Anyonge’s (1993) estimate for S. fatalis placed it above estimates for S. populator in Christiansen and Harris (2005), even though it was clear that S. populator was the larger of the two species. Christiansen and Harris proposed that one potential source of error could’ve been that, Anyonge’s body mass data were all literature values while Christiansen and Harris analysis employed the live weights of the skeletal specimens used. But, the more likely reason was because of Anyonge’s felid sample (n=14) compared to Christiansen and Harris (n=11). Anyonge’s felid sample included more small species. A data sample containing multiple small species would bring forth size associated bias, creating unreliably high body mass estimates for large species, specifically if they had thick diaphyses and epiphyses. Not to mention, the slopes in Anyonge (1993) were steeper than the slopes in Christiansen and Harris (2005). Using the datasets from Christiansen and Harris (2005; tables 2 & 3), the Humeral length slope in Christiansen and Harris (2005; HL: 2.720  ± 0.685) was lower than Anyonge’s value (HL:3.13). Moreover, the 95% CI of the femur slope in Christiansen and Harris (2005; FL: 2.712  ± 0.378) eliminates the exchanging values from Anyonge (FL: 3.20). Anyonge’s smallest circumferences (HC: 2.65; FC: 2.92) were much higher than the exchanging ones in Christiansen and Harris (2005; HC: 2.436  0.258; FC: 2.780  0.292), but still in the 95% CI. A recalculation of Anyonge’s (1993) data using the equations in Christiansen and Harris (2005) would result in significantly lessened body mass values for both S. fatalis and other included taxon in Anyonge’s (1993) study. Even the largest American lion specimens in Christiansen and Harris (2009) didn’t reach the mass of half a metric ton like the ones in Anyonge (1993). LACMHC 2900-3, who was the largest American lion specimen in Christiansen and Harris (2009) and the largest American lion skull specimen at the time, only weighed 351 kgs. Overall, the American lion was not 523 kgs and certainly not anywhere near 523 kgs. The maximum weight for the American lion would’ve been around 351 kgs, with average male American lions having a mean of 255.65  ± 41.34 kgs (Christiansen and Harris 2009).

[@CalvinTheCarnotaurus]

I think this is the largest wall of text I ever got sent in a single comment. Thanks for the information though.

[@Jimmoieie]

@@CalvinTheCarnotaurus no problem.

[@tyrannotherium7873]

It depends on the individual specimen. Some may have reached 523 KG like the one, S I have even though that is the skull

[@Jimmoieie]

@@tyrannotherium7873 523 kgs is too much for any Panthera.

[@tyrannotherium7873]

@@Jimmoieie depends on what pathera type cat we’re talking about because again they are much much larger than modern Lion also American lions have a 19 inch skull and modern lions have a 13 inch skull and when you look at the tar pit specimen it’s very huge

[@NatureEnjoyer523]

'635 kg' Damn....

[@CalvinTheCarnotaurus]

Big boi.

[@NatureEnjoyer523]

@@CalvinTheCarnotaurus Humans can grow larger that the largest felines💀

[@CalvinTheCarnotaurus]

@@NatureEnjoyer523 I said that to GEK0 and he was just horrified. I wish I recorded his reaction.

[@NatureEnjoyer523]

@@CalvinTheCarnotaurus That dude must have had some mutation

[@CalvinTheCarnotaurus]

Probably. @@NatureEnjoyer523

[@Xenomorph_177]

I’d say 500 to 625 is the average, but 750 to 880 would probably be the maximum.

[@tyrannotherium7873]

I am admit I am not the best at math so my bad on that and I also wasn’t debunking you or anything. It was just some article that I read also never trust Wikipedia I mean then again it’s 50-50 so it depends really but again there are other articles that say my spectrum even if you look at the skull of this animal, it looks like a heavy built animal

[@Jimmoieie]

The largest American lion skull wasn’t even that big; it was only 467.5 mm or 18.4 inches. Even the mosbach lion had a greater skull length of 19.083 inches or 484.7 mm.

[@tyrannotherium7873]

@@Jimmoieie do you have any evidence

[@Jimmoieie]

@@tyrannotherium7873 Yes, I do indeed.

[@tyrannotherium7873]

@@Jimmoieie well where is the article

[@Jimmoieie]

@@tyrannotherium7873 you can find it on either researchgate or historical biology

[@xenon3659]

The most overrated prehistoric cat of all time