A Roadie's Take On Alpha Wolf's Rant On Merch Fees

[@TankTheTech]

Thank you guys for all of your comments, questions, and thoughts on this so far! I did want be clear, however, that I'm not trying to suggest that you don't buy merchandise from bands at shows. Every little bit helps every band, especially while they're on tour. Just wanted to give you some more info on the Merch Fee subject so you at least know exactly where your money is going when you spend it at shows. If you don't buy merch at shows, buying directly from the band's web-site is one of the best places to support the bands that you like. 🤘

[@clintonreisig]

I see the problem with some venues not appreciating proportionality in fees

[@pete_lind]

Have you seen Marko Hietala comeback interview ? More info why he left and what he is planning . Exclusive: Marko Hietala talks about his split with Nightwish, future plans , KuopioRock 29.7.2022. 16 min

[@digitalmouse3314]

Are you kidding me I thought it was opposite because I drop money big time at shows I should reverse it I guess

[@mattgeisel3727]

Yes indeed. If I like a band, I buy all of their stuff. Most recent is Jinjer, Spiritbox, Erra, Periphery. I have about 20 shirts plus hoodies along with Vinyl, CD's, posters, tapestries, mugs, etc., you name it. I understand its difficult for metal bands so I want to make sure their effort and talent doesnt go unrewarded. Support the bands you like!! Reaction Request: Erra - Snowblood 😁

[@halcooper3070]

Explain to me how this is different than ticket sales? Ie. You get paid a flat fee to perform, the venue makes a bigger profit if you're popular (or they did a good job advertising). Doesn't the same go for merch? Not saying it's fair, but isn't it similar?

[@ThePunkRockMBA]

Merch fees are such BS. It's pure rent-seeking. The venue adds no value, this is just squeezing bands because they can. Glad to see people pushing back on this. If the venue wants a cut of merch they need to do something beyond just giving them a crappy Walmart card table.

[@TankTheTech]

“Rent seeking” is such a good way to put it in venues that don’t help the bands with merch.

[@dustinsterling3248]

It's the homie Finn

[@sonictemple2925]

Agreed. We had a venue try to sneak it in on us and it wasn’t agreed on when booking. Some random came up that we only saw at load in and asked for merch cut. I said nope and he insisted. I then asked for the same percentage in bar cut as well as our guarantee. He said that wasn’t in our contract. I said okay then I guess we are both not getting cuts.

[@yourmomlovespenis]

How dare you! As a small club owner I can verify that we buy all of our card tables from costco.

[@timdevaney6625]

If a venue wants a cut of merch without supplying the labor the band should be able to get a percent of alcohol sales without labor. Mutually beneficial business

[@Johnnysnuff]

There is a growing trend in the UK where bands find a pub/bar near the venue and make a deal with them to set the merch up there in exchange for sending their fans to the pub/bar, many of whom will buy some drinks and therefore the pub makes extra money!!

[@JamesDavis-mm2mi]

Thats happening in the US too with smaller bands. Some of them will set up at a bar down the street like you said and after their set they will say “catch us at (insert bar) after the show, come hang out and we will be selling merch.” Its a pretty cool way of doing things

[@pineappletree50]

@@JamesDavis-mm2mi Its a realy cool way of doing things, because you get to hang out with the band, buy them drinks and just generally have a good time

[@BobbyGeneric145]

That is a very excellent idea!

[@Kooshmint]

This is such a fucking awesome idea! Sad artists have to do this now but what an awesome way around this fucked up gouging

[@abowla7187]

YES! It's a way for musicians to get away from the leeches.

[@mikeselectricstuff]

If a venue is providing their own staff to sell merch, a fee is reasonable, but if all they are supplying is a table for a band employee to work from , then any fee is a piss-take. Bands should set up a stall outside venues that ask for a fee.

[@TankTheTech]

100% agree. When I was doing merch for bands, I don't think they cared about the fee so much when the venue was selling and doing everything, because it freed me up to help the band or catch up on other stuff.

[@Alicatt1]

@@TankTheTech As in my above post, even outside, those selling merch are noted and taken in hand either by venue security or by police.

[@conradamber]

not that easy. unless you can cut a deal with a suitable venue nearby, setting up on the public domain often requires permits from the city where you're performing. That's means a lot more paperwork to get done before you can start touring and a lot more bookkeeping on the road , because depending on the local government, getting those permits can take time. And the rules differ from place to place.

[@rlGinjaNinja]

Fee in those cases should be, like... Ten or twenty bucks total. Table rental fee 😂

[@autohmae]

the 'funny' things is... as he mentioned in the video in that case: they might not be booked at all

[@MykeLewisMusic]

First time I encountered "soft goods" fees was when I opened for Crystal Castles long ago. Lady manager told me that 15% of my shirt sales went to her. So I created a merch bundle where if you bought the cd for $25 you got a "free" shirt. She was mad, but I followed the rules, so.......☺

[@TankTheTech]

Hahahahaha. Good thinking outside the box.

[@Friendly_Lurker]

Tremendously brilliant mate!👊

[@kvltr00]

This is the way to do it. Be clever and work within the language you're given. If a band did this where I work, I'd high five them.

[@POOKIE5592]

Stick it to da man! Or woman, in this case.

[@dtklamf7457]

Nice idea, but that didn't stop her from doing it to other bands. I would have kicked the shit out of her. I have been out of the game for a long time, but back in the day violence was the only thing people understood.

[@MeanJoeCarpenter]

I first experienced this in the 90’s . My band did a one off opening for Danzig. We were asked to play an NO contract was involved. First this is you cannot underprice the headliner, if they sell shirts for $30 bucks you have to sell yours at the same price because the headliner doesn’t want you to sell cheaper merch that might get bought before someone willing to pay a higher price for their merch. Anyway, show goes great and our drummer was packing up our merch table when a venue employee comes and says he needs his merch fee, we were like “ what merch fee”? He explained that it’s standard procedure for their venue to get a cut. We explained that we signed no contract accepting that condition, but he wouldn’t take no for an answer. He called venue security and told them to hold us until the fee was given. My drummer grabs the merch case and hauls ass out the door and across the street off of the venue property. The security gives chase, once we got off venues property my drummer turns around and shoves the merch case into the security guards arms and when the security guy took it my drummer punches him square in the nose and knocked him out cold. We get in the van and left. The venue could not do a thing about it because there was no contract and we made it off property so security no longer legally able to try and detain us. Always make sure ahead of time because they usually are never forthcoming with these little tricks.

[@BD-el1yc]

I mean security can't legally detain you ON their property either. That shit is false imprisonment.

[@corymimsmusic2193]

@@BD-el1yc in missouri if they have a class A security license they can detain you until the cops show up.

[@mikegreenebass]

That’s wild. Rule of thumb should be if there is money involved make sure you know all the details of how it’s earned ,collected and expenses. Never assume.

[@xTheDrifter]

You go way above and beyond a react channel. Thank you for the education and insight into an industry most of us only get to see the surface level of, as a consumer. We appreciate it!

[@justice909]

Yep this guy is so insightful I think he's brilliant I've learnt so much from him I've only subscribed to his channel for a week and I've learnt so much from him his podcasts are amazing 👏

[@scottheffner3427]

As a former restaurant/bar/nightclub general manager, liquor/beer costs accounted for 17-19% of the sales price. These venues have made it even worse. $7 bottle of beer cost the venue about $1 to buy, a half keg of beer that generates 120 or so 16 oz drafts costs $.70-.80 per draft and sells for $6+ a cup. A well bottle of rum cost $11-12 and generates 20 shots if poured correctly and sells $8+ per shot. Even adding coke out of the soda gun cost pennies. When I think about the money that a venue generates off the bar alone, I cringe at the thought that they are taking merch money without doing anything.

[@TankTheTech]

Thank you for providing some numbers, because I honestly didn't know that the bar was able to generate that much. I've had some friends that were bartenders and knew how marked up stuff was, but didn't know it was THAT steep. If that's the case, and a lot of these venues are killing at the bar for shows, there's no reason to take a merch fee.

[@Bannschwert]

@@TankTheTech Though that calculation up there does not consider any running costs and employee wages. But yeah of course, think about the cost of a bottle of Coke (1,5l) and then remember you can sell 7 cups from that and still spill have a cup. Of course the prices seem insane at first, but you also need to run the bar on selling mainly drinks. With a concert you'll additionally have ticket fees, but you also have to pay the band and additional tech plus staff to have the concert running. Overall though it probably depends on who is running a venue how hard they'll try to rip you off. If it's a privately owned bar/club that loves music and live shows, they'll probably have reasonable prices, if the venue is just owned by some investment firms, they'll basically force their employees to rip everyone off as hard as they can. Yay unregulatied capitalism.

[@Jumalten001]

You didnt factor any employee costs into your little rant. Pretty big mistake there chief.

[@havanadaurcy1321]

@@Jumalten001 Place I know didn't pay anyone. You paid him, kinda Hostelish

[@Under-Kaoz]

Makes a lot of sense. Hard rock's beer went up in price by $2-3 when a band was playing. They act like they aren't already making enough with alcohol upsales during the show.

[@LolaPolamalu]

My sister and I own bar/venue. I would never ask for a Merch fee. I buy shirts, albums, stickers etc from all the bands who play our venue. We are here to support bands, not steal from them.

[@TankTheTech]

Fantastic to hear, because there are some people who don't quite think the same as you.

[@craigpoole2602]

I worked for a band that sold merch out of their bus. There wasn't a single shirt or CD in the building. It was great for the band, it was great for the fans who looked at it like a meet and greet. Infuriated venues. I also had a band that put % of the bar in the contract that venues didn't read. Good times.

[@lordgino2006]

That's actually really smart!

[@Under-Kaoz]

The problem with that is, depending on country or state, you need some type of for-hire license. Or the venue itself can stop you from selling merchandise on their private property.

[@massapower]

That's a Fantastic IDEA !!😁🤟

[@craigpoole2602]

@@Under-Kaoz I could be wrong but I do believe bands are on state business licenses in every state they play in and pay sales and income tax to each state. So that shouldn't be an issue.

[@toddhatfield5329]

@@Under-Kaoz then you park on a public street. Thats what I did.

[@villevainio5231]

I really like these "behind the scenes" videos. Really really interesting and informative. Hope there'll be more.

[@scottricci5063]

For as much bs one must deal with in a touring band, playing your own music live is so killer. Plus you ad in the free sex and drugs and it totally becomes the best job to have in the whole wide world! 🤘

[@chugmarks]

Alpha Wolf hands down make me proud to be an Aussie again.... I just love how authentic they are and the fact they they call it like it is.

[@thetimlumbTV]

I've chatted to Lochie the vocalist before and yeah he's a good guy.

[@bencousins7311]

we should always be proud to be aussies mate

[@CROSSofIRON-uk]

except they didn't: merch fee was in the contract the band agreed to before taking the show, their tour manager/booking agent should either have renegotiated or declined. The whole point of written contracts is to avoid this it's 'not fair' flakiness.

[@zvolencan1]

These videos are like reading a quality article in a music magazine. Great stuff, Tank, always looking forward to them.

[@chazhartwayne6493]

I had something different in mind when I asked you to react to alpha wolf a few months ago.

[@apathy5767]

lmao

[@wolframvonstein7303]

And the award for "Probably the best comment under this video, ever" goes to...

[@lakabaka]

Been suggesting Alpha Wolf for like a year .. Sigh :( I know Tank would love them

[@TankTheTech]

@@lakabaka I've listened to some of their stuff, just haven't done any reactions yet.

[@lakabaka]

@@TankTheTech Good to hear:) Check also out their live shows if you have not, they are crazy good. So much energy

[@theslamking666]

I went apeshit about merch cuts on our first U.S tour. Unless you're in a huge venue with their own merch staff/vendors this literally doesn't happen anywhere outside the U.S/Canada. At some of our shows if I actually gave them the real merch percentage we'd actually have to give them more money than we were getting paid to play there, so in effect we'd be paying them for "the privilege" of playing at their venue. Losing money when you're driving around one of the biggest countries is simply not an option. At the end of the day, your venue is full and you're making bank on your insanely overpriced bar products because of the bands that are playing that night. It's greed plain and simple and it needs to stop.

[@kvltr00]

Sounds like you're not big enough to be doing a full US tour.

[@ohalistair]

@@kvltr00 Sounds like you don't know what it's like to tour internationally for the first time.

[@theslamking666]

@@kvltr00 sounds like you don't understand how percentages work

[@ABRwtfBBQ]

Dude that fucking sucks I always try to support bands whenever I go to a show and I’ll support you again next time you’re here in El Paso later in the year the venue we have here sucks and I’m Sure they have done shady shit to the bands that play they would have their fliers for shows advertising presale tickets prices and the day of show prices on several occasions I’ve shown up and they are charging 10 dollars more than the price on their fliers and they would just say shit like ohh it’s cause it’s the day of the show that’s why the price went up I’d pull the flier out and show them it says x amount of money for day of show tickets about half the time the bouncers would reluctantly let me pay flier price and other half I was forced to play their “door price” and now they never post prices for day of the show on their fliers so they can get away with charging whatever amount they want if you didn’t get presale so now I never buy presale from them they expect cash for the tickets I’m buying my tickets online from the bands website to make it harder for these shit bar venues to just pocket money any chance they can get

[@ericdpeerik3928]

"Sounds like you're not big enough to be doing a full US tour." 😂 You're still playing in front of your mirror with your shirt off, aren't you? Not only did you display you don't know the music business, you also showed a much broader lack of business acumen. If you're doing the thing you're big enough for, your bar is too low. Get good, kid 🤪

[@rhiannonmaibond2349]

THIS! This is why I enjoy your channel so much. Getting these nuggets of information is a total gold mine! I've learned more on this channel than anything from my musician/roadie ex's. 😆 I might actually have to forgive a couple of them.😆😆

[@danieldavidson5447]

Good on the aussie boys for calling this out! Love Alpha Wolf! 🤘

[@dtpfeiffer]

Good vid. I always find the behind the scenes stuff interesting and have been wanting one about merch and how much the bands make off of it for a while now. I would not have guessed that the fees for small venues were that high considering they aren't that involved in the selling process.

[@iampscht]

I really love these kinds of videos. as a beginner in the music industry I am learning so much just from listening to your experiences! thank you for providing so much insight!

[@autohmae]

I also like the Riffhard podcast and The music Biz podcast (formally: Inside Music podcast)

[@HollywoodConnection_LA]

100% agree....it's a master class series for sure..wish I had this when I was in my early 20s.....which was 30 years ago....oh well....great information

[@LostLegacyNY_]

As a band that’s been fighting for a long time out in the real world, everything you’ve said here is accurate. We’ve experienced other situations in which, the band were supporting , does not want us to have any merchandise or wants us to set in a bad area in the venue. We’ve had some difficult situations, in which we had to deal with people that have zero interest in helping. In one show the National act we opened for requested we use a smaller table. We typically use a 6 foot table with a tablecloth and display our stuff. We had to really negotiate this because the $250 or $300 in merchandise we sell in a show that’s well attended is what we use for gas, food. It’s shameful, that venues or even bands make it hard on the supporting acts. Sometimes, these bands are not able to draw and sell through tickets. The support acts often bring a lot of people to shows that make the difference between playing to a small crowd and a descent crowd. You know it, small bands need to sell merchandise in order to keep going. Specially when your pulling a trailer full of equipment and gassing a ton and a half truck!

[@senditkevin]

These kind of videos where you talk about touring and how the music industry works are awesome to learn about. This would make a good podcast series. Side note: you have the best audio of any KZbinr I've heard, literally sounds like a recording studio.

[@DJSpidey]

Also have a peek at the three books written by Martin Atkins (Pigface, PiL, etc.) for more information on these issues; great, eye-opening reads.

[@KriusAerion]

If a venue can ask a band for merch cuts, due to giving them a space to sell, the band should get a cut of the bar sales because they are the reason anyone is there drinking at all. Say this to a venue and they will lose their mind. Put simply, it's just a predatory practice that only hurts artists in an already difficult business.

[@extraordinary_ordinary]

There are some contracts that stipulate that the band receives a percentage of bar sales. A lot of contracts also stipulate that the headliner receives a percentage of the door once it goes above a certain threshold (which is in addition to their guarantee)

[@hazardeur]

at the end of they day, it's their place and they pay the rent or even own it and maintain it. it's just fair business practice that they take something. that just how the real world works, it's not a charity after all. 20% is too much though. 5-10% max should be fair

[@crowing3886]

@@hazardeur except the band is literally bringing hundreds to their business in the first place making their bar/good sells let's be honest. Also, some venues have a venue fee AND a merch fee ON TOP of the ticket fee cuts they get. Shit is entirely predatory especially when they don't even set-up the bands merch or sells it an makes the band do both the entire night. Literally the opposite of fair business practice..

[@Tim85-y2q]

@@extraordinary_ordinary A common model these days (especially for bigger acts) sees the band getting a flat downside vs. a percentage of the gate, whichever is larger.

[@konnod321]

I remember CJ from Thy Art explaining how it was financial hell to play outside Australia, so for a band like Alpha Wolf who lets be honest.. are not as popular as Thy Art... its gotta be extra hell financially to play in America/Europe, so for these Clubs/Venues to start taking a part of the bands source of income is a shitty thing to do. I'm totally on the bands side, whenever I go to a show.. I buy merch, one to support the band and two to have a piece of memorabilia.

[@shilohivy4590]

I really like this channel. Always informative yet very clear and entertaining. Glad I found you.

[@The_Ramonster]

This actually suprises me a lot! I've never encountered a merch fee when I've played a show! I can really understand the fee if the venue provided a merch team but otherwise I feel like it is misplaced! Thank you for sharing your thoughts and experience! It's something I will have in the back of my head for sure when we are going to tour with Alleviate!

[@badgermcinnes2383]

As a musician, Tank, I can't thank you enough for releasing this extremely informative video. I greatly look forward to more of these in the future. :)

[@TheAidanFitzsimons]

CJ from Thy Art Is Murder went on basically the same rant here in Denver a few weeks back. It's a shame but I understand the business side of things. Thanks for making this video man. Keep em coming

[@HollywoodConnection_LA]

yeah, I was working a show once (teleprompter operator for the band) and I noticed one of the backup singers was also working the merch table at the end of the show....it was a small Texas based band...pretty cool

[@mikaeljacobsson1437]

Makes sense that bands are selling at venues, people are more likely to buy things at a show than ordering from a website. Good way to get travel money for the band. And people get a "souvenir" from the show. I hope bands finds a way to deal with merch fees in a good way. They deserve it.

[@MuzakMaker]

Merch cuts are the reason I always make sure to put AT LEAST a fiver in the tip jar (and upwards of 50 if there was no merch I actually wanted). Making money as a musician is a pain as it is. The tip jar is the best way to help a band while on tour. I remember one show where I didn't care for anything at the merch booth but I already set aside $50 in my budget for merch that night. Threw the $50 in the tip jar and the vocalist was hugging me in near tears because they worried about feeding themselves and paying for gas on their 4.5 hour drive to the next show.

[@alxvdark]

100%

[@graveyardspliff]

You are the realist one wish more people would be like you man

[@neilmccathie]

Tip Jar usually just goes to whoever’s doing merch. Especially on international tours. Rarely the band/ artist themselves.

[@MuzakMaker]

@@neilmccathie and these bands that I'm talking about who can barely afford to go to the next town, you think they can afford a whole extra person on their crew?

[@neilmccathie]

I hear ya. It’s definitely commendable for you to do that. My comment was more of a cautionary anecdote. I know a few merch sellers that’ve done international (US) tours with bigger bands, had a tip jar and made nearly $1k plus per show. I personally think that’s the bands money but I guess it’s how you label the jar in the end haha

[@rocioiribe5841]

This is great. What a complicated industry it truly seems like. Thanks for sharing all this knowledge dude.

[@shilomurphy8289]

Subscribed purely cause of your WBTBWB and Don Broco vinyls in the background. The info was tight too.

[@Sabretoothsquirrel]

Hey, Tank! Just wanted you to know that since I've started watching your videos on topics like this and your interviews with band members I have started buying more merch and physical copies of albums from bands that I want to support financially. I bought some stuff from Bloodywood's official online merch store, I recently ordered some of Evergrey's albums on CD and bought an Orbit Culture shirt at a show I was at this Saturday where they were playing support for In Flames. Great show! That venue had a really professional dedicated merch booth with staff so I'm guessing they took a certain percentage. But based on what you talk about in this video it seems warranted in this case. Greetings from Sweden!

[@redlabel9294]

WOW!!! Just stumbled on your channel. I've been playing live/pro since 1984. I learned a lot from your video. You really know your shit and kick ass man. Rock on!!!

[@TankTheTech]

Thanks, man!

[@DanielFreakinAwesome2]

Huge respect forAlpha Wolf calling this shit out

[@stevenfairclough5745]

Man, this Merch fee sucks. But what really grips me is the freaking ticket fee, or print at home fees. I complained to the missus when the ticket fee was $1.50. Now you see tickets fees that are more than 30% of the actual ticket. It’s a f*ckin rip-off and a reason why I don’t go to as many gigs as I’d like to. I see the ticket price, think, yeah I’ll go to see this band, it’ll be a great show, then bam before you know it ticket fees and printing fees; it suddenly becomes a ‘no thanks’. I don’t believe I’m alone in this, and I think that impacts bands income too. Too many money grabbers from the ticket agencies.

[@drewciferf3293]

One of the ways to pay less fees is check and see if the club/ venue sells tix to the show through their own box office. Where I live, in Columbus Ohio, we have some venues that sell tickets directly. There are still fees, but usually tend to be about half as much as ticketmaster. Yes, there is the inconvenience of having to drive to the venue yourself as opposed to buying online, but if I'm buying 4 tickets to see a show, that may save me 30-40 bucks. That allows me to get a shirt and put more money in the pocket of the band. Hope this helps

[@BobbyGeneric145]

Dude even tiny touring bands selling advance tickets have fees. Its absurd... You're supposed to make your money at the venue, not by nickle and diming me.

[@jynxycats]

Ticketmasters business is to be the middle man. To be the bad guy. Artists would charge more, but then they look like jerks. These extra fees are going to the artist, promoter, venue, etc. They also bank on folks not giving up at the checkout screen, so you're the minority funny enough

[@stevenfairclough5745]

@@drewciferf3293 we have done this for shows that are local; I live in Oklahoma City. For shows in Dallas that’s a non-starter.

[@stevenfairclough5745]

@@jynxycats I hear what you are saying. I’d love to see a breakdown of the distribution of those ticket fees - genuinely. If bands want to charge more for their tickets, I would prefer they just do that. I guess perhaps as I’m in my mid fifties now, my attitude towards gigs has changed. I love live shows, and I used to buy shirts at every show I went to as well. In part to show my allegiance, and in part to help support the bands. Now, not so much. I still try to buy local/support act shirts: Dryver, Oberon to name a couple.

[@sandy1653]

I love these behind the scenes views. And yeah, I agree if the venue/promoter isn't helping out they should keep their sticky fingers out of the band's money. Especially as merch is a lot of a band's income if I understand it right.

[@lordgino2006]

On tour, it's generally the merch that generate the most profit for a band, not the show itself.

[@TattooedTabletop]

Yeah I can definitely see you why Alpha Wolf was bent out of shape on it. When you're getting cut a merch fee in a venue not selling your shit, not helping at all, and having fuck all AC or anything when you play, then fuck that. Would've ranted the same thing if I was in their place.

[@gentlemanjester637]

I remember when I went to see Gloryhammer in London, it was a small club venue, a single merch table. The singer of one of the supporting bands, Dendera, came out during the headline set to help sell his band's merch. Super nice guy, autographed the CDs for folks who wanted.

[@jaredcorrell5045]

Another great video Tank! I've been really digging videos like this one and the one on the Dave Mustain meltdown. So cool to get your insight on these sides of the industry that a lot of us are unaware of or misunderstand. 🤘🏻

[@apathy5767]

Amazing quality production and knowledgeable on the topic as always , love your vids dude 🖤🖤🖤

[@Left_Hand_Path]

Toured for 2 years nationally 2010-2012 and had plenty of nights where Merch cuts were just part of the tour contracts. It sucked then it sucks now. Conveniently we “~didn’t sell much~” those nights at those venues.

[@nawsh2252]

Dude, thank you for making this content. Just shared with my whole band as we are hoping to be touring next year!

[@Leo_Blac]

is this actually a thing like internationally or is it a NA thing..? I have literally worked, played and planned/"promoted" shows (to be fair.. played and planned were mostly "only" smaller club shows) and I have never heard of a merch fee, that the venue didn't work for. When the venue is selling the merch (like a festival selling all the bands merch at a central booth) than a fee is justified of course. But when the venue is literally doing nothing for the merch except maybe a table? I wouldn't even have thought about asking the bands I booked for a merch cut.. no freaking way... so you have a very puzzled german person here 😅

[@TankTheTech]

It’s 100% an all over the world thing. Like I said, situations vary from venue to venue, but I’ve encountered merch fees on every tour I’ve ever done, regardless of country.

[@tragicsupergirl]

Definitely all over the world. Became aware of this after Tim Burgess (of The Charlatans in the UK) kept ranting about it on Twitter.

[@Leo_Blac]

@@TankTheTech thanks for the reply.. I'd say I have had good venues then.. 😅 Maybe bands should try to say "if you want a cut, you have to work for it. And no, a table is not 'working for it'! So either no cut or you sell the stuff for us. There is no such thing as free money!" I know how hard it is to implement something like that across a whole industry especially over practices that have been in place for a long time, but if enough acts do that, it might work.

[@radalict]

@@TankTheTech not a thing in Australia in small venues, hence Alpha Wolf not getting it. Most of the time the supporting bands man the merch stands.

[@tritra63]

I remember that some years ago the german Rapper Marteria refused to sell merch in one of his shows (I think it was at Wuhlheide) because the merch fee was so extraordinary high that he would have to rise prices to make it a net zero. So yes, merch fees are a thing in germany too.

[@killaken2000]

Does anyone remember Gig magazine? They used to have articles on this behind the scenes kind of stuff for gigging musicians. Too bad they went under.

[@antoinettemeijer7569]

I realy appreciate the insights you give on touring and live on the road.

[@andyphelpsfishingvlog9681]

best example i recall, is back in the early 2000's tattoo the planet shows. destruction were playing in Düsseldorf, and Schmier (vocalist/bassist) came on stage and told the crowd that the venue wanted 50% of all bands merch sales. so , he just threw 4 boxes of shirts into the crowd to spite them.

[@Westcoasttrendkill]

Merch fees suck ass. Never understood how a club that holds 200 people is still requiring bands to pay a fee.... Shit is nuts. I remember a few years back telling some dudes that the band should pay a merch fee as soon as the venue pays the band a portion of what was earned at the bar. They just laugh and we're like that's not fair. That's how the club makes their cash and i mentioned well that's how a band survives with the merch they sell.

[@SpacemanXC]

The band is what fills their club up with people, and they want to gouge them. It's so pathetic.

[@onyxodyssey]

Damn, this is informative! I'm sharing this with everyone local musician I know! THANK YOU SO MUCH!

[@TankTheTech]

For sure!

[@lordgino2006]

So let me get this straight: You have to pay the designer to create an image, then you have to pay the printer to make the actual image, then pay to have it printed on a shirt (that you also have to pay), pay for shipping and/or manutention, to finally getting charged for actually selling it? The fuck! I will not include the creation fees here, but It cost around 15$ to print a shirt here in Montreal. Shirt will be sold around 20-25$ in small venue. Which means a band would actually make absolutely no money on their merchs JUST because the venue or promoter feels greedy? It's the same thing with CDs, they cost around 15$ to produce and are selled generally 20-25$. Again, no money gained. Oh, also here in Québec, you have to pay to rent the venue, so they already get their money like that (plus alcohol sells). For that, I can understand, as you pay the techs, waiters, security, etc. But asking for merch fee on top that when it's handled by the band itself?? Oh hell no! I will buy from bands website directly if I learn they have merch fees. I will not encourage greed like that.

[@rippedgenes]

It doesn't cost $15 to produce a shirt in Montreal. If it does come to my shop in Toronto it won't cost you that much.

[@lordgino2006]

@@rippedgenes i believe you, but unless you charge 5$ per piece, the shipping will compensate for the difference. Wich means it will end up the same

[@Under-Kaoz]

The majority of shows I've been to shirts cost $40-$65. Maybe local bands do $25. They have massive profit margins. I love Linkin Park, but their merch is a bad joke. $80 for a thin Grey Walmart hoodie that has their logos on it. That said I'm still not siding with venues taking such a huge cut. That may be why a lot of their merch prices have gone up, to make up for that percent.

[@ronnie3044]

Tbh it’s really not a big deal. When you sale through retail stores (brick or online) they take a percentage. Not sure why people expect it to be different in venues. 20% is a lot lower than a lot of places would take. When my company partners with someone for an event. I’m not doing it for less than 40%. I don’t care if you do all the work or not. It’s not worth my time to do any lower.

[@ScottHogue]

Fifteen to produce a CD? Do you carve them by hand?

[@buddystewart2020]

Now, I haven't played out in a long time, but back when I was, I was in a pretty popular local band. We used to play a popular club in town and we would probably play three nights on a weekend, thu, fri, sat, and just play for the door. We did pretty good on just the door over three nights. The club owner came to us one time and said he wanted a % of the door. We said sure, be glad to, if you'll give us a % of your bar. That was the end of that conversation. We still kept playing there, still packed the room and never paid him anything out of the door.

[@shawnbuscholl5153]

We try to not play shows with merch fees but sometimes especially on tour it's unavoidable. We have found work arounds like hiding it until after count ins and saying we only sold 10 shirts when it was more like 50 or being "sold out" and selling stuff out of the back of the van. It's utter bullshit if the band pays every expense from recording to printing hard copies, shirts, patches etc, extra gas associated with transporting it, setting up and my wife manages the merch table when we are on stage

[@TankTheTech]

Hey, gotta do what ya gotta do. I’ve worked for bands where I’ve absolutely altered my merch sheets or counts to save the bands some money.

[@kvltr00]

Venues are well aware of tricks like this - Knocked Loose tried this and their merch girl threw a tantrum, it was very funny. Just get a better agent who will not agree to a merch cut, or negotiate by offering to waive hospitality budgets/buyouts. It's really quite easy.

[@OscarManners]

@@kvltr00 Because unlike yourself Knocked Loose aren't parasitic leeches who expect free money for nothing

[@sleepwalker6825]

Hi Tank .. Love the Vids ... Do these terms Apply to Massive acts ? example Muse ??

[@TankTheTech]

Absolutely.

[@sleepwalker6825]

@@TankTheTech cheers for that Tank , I just assumed that Huge acts would play by different rules because of their Status .

[@sillyness3456]

Merch fees are fine, when a service is provided. Any large open air relies on these services, because you can't let bands sell their own stuff there for insurance reasons. A club that puts up a few folding tables and asks for 20 % is just a scam-fest. They make more than enough on admission and bar sales. (I happen to know these numbers pretty well...)

[@kvltr00]

As a venue worker I doubt you.

[@sillyness3456]

@@kvltr00 As someone who had direct looks into my own accounting, I just speak from my experience.

[@mt12450]

Very interesting video. You should make more videos on the behind the scenes business side of touring bands.

[@reactionsaccount3955]

I may be mistaken, but I seem to remember that when Marko left Nightwish, this was one of the reason that he said he was tired of regarding the greediness of the music industry.

[@TankTheTech]

I mean, I don't know if it was THIS kind of stuff specifically, but he did talk about the greed of the music industry in general.

[@sepsissband]

Thank you for talking about this

[@Boriszuzu1]

A couple of months ago, the support band, not the headliner, the support band, were told at the last minute by the O2 Apollo in Manchester, that they had to increase the cost of their T-Shirts to £35 and were to give the venue 30% of the take. Support bands and smaller touring bands, rely on Merch sales to feed, shelter and transport the band. Venues, Promoters and Ticket gents are gonna kill live music.

[@alexb151]

Happened with Trashboat in Leeds

[@seanyk3]

I remember going to a music conference, and the main headliner cancelled their entire set over this because it wasn't part of their contract and the venue sprung the merch fee on them so last minute they just said fuck it and didn't play, they hung outside near their trailer selling merch and hanging out and meeting everyone instead.

[@patriciacsemezova]

These kind of videos really help me with my novel, so thank you! I learned so much new stuff!

[@MarvalentAudio-01]

After nearly 40 years in the music industry, my experience is that, outside of the US, merch fees only used to exist in venues that were actively handling the merch on your behalf. Some venues introduced a ‘flat fee’, for the space, sort of like a market stall fee, but even this is something that has only just come in in the last 15 or so years. However, working with American bands touring outside of the US, their horror stories of merch fees (in some cases, the fees being demanded by venues exceeded the actual profit margin). I can understand the fee if the venue is doing all the work, and has to pay staff for the sales, but the ‘how can we screw a few more dollars out of the band’ mentality personally p!$$es me off. The costs of touring, especially for the lower and mid tier bands have increased but the money paid has not, in many cases it has actually gone backwards, and so the only place the band can turn a profit (ie, make a wage for themselves) is from the merch. To then have someone step in and say ‘we don’t think you are worth paying enough to break even on this show, but we are going to steal an unjustifiable percentage of your money’, is just wrong.

[@TheCookster64]

That's why WASP never toured the U.S. for years. They didn't see it as financially viable. Hopefully with the success of the current tour that will change.

[@HollywoodConnection_LA]

Egg-zactly and then the nerve of them, well, some of them, who had no merch fee agreement in the contract just come up and try to ask for it anyway as Tank pointed out. WTH? I woulda told them, ya right, yr funny, you should try stand up comedy..... (SMH)

[@bass57575]

Fascinating behind the scenes breakdown. Love this type of in depth look with first hand experiences! Curious if you have any insights into how ticket prices breakdown? Keep up the good work!

[@Axe_Slinger]

Marco Hietala mentioned this as a MAJOR part of why he left Nightwish. He felt like he was "working" for this ultra rich entities taken a huge merch cut! He was more pissed about streaming but he talked about the cuts taken on tour as well.

[@giffimarauder]

Second video in a row from You I've learned again about things going on behind the scenes. Thx for Your explanations!!!

[@demoncat13]

If the merch fees are written into the contracts, why not write into the contract that the venue has to run the merch table if they're demanding a fee?

[@TankTheTech]

Valid point, and a good question.

[@fisty1232]

This is one of your best non reaction/interview videos to date, don't get me wrong here I have enjoyed your other ones but this was one of them hidden ones as in not many people knew about the hidden merch fee, If it was not for talking to local bands in the past I don't think I would have known about it as well.

[@markjames8664]

I know a band that had noticeably higher T-shirt prices at a venue where all the merch was sold by the venue, so I assume that the band set the price to get a decent return for them on the sale. This seems wise to me as long as people will pay that much (in this case I think people would, as some of it was new stuff not available anywhere else).

[@TankTheTech]

That’s is 100% the case in that situation.

[@travisspaulding2222]

That's why tour shirts are so important. People are less likely to buy a shirt they can just order from your website for less money. However, a tour exclusive shirt that isn't available anywhere else is worth paying a premium for.

[@garyjohnstonemusic]

Recently found this awesome channel. I really appreciate you passing on your knowledge of touring and how it all currently works. As a (mostly) covers musician who used to tour original music I'm amazed that anyone ever makes money from original music these days. The amount of people in the big chairs who think they're due a cut of what the bands sell is absolutely disgusting. It makes me ask, can you plz do a video on how best to support your favourite musicians? You might have already done one, but I genuinely thought that buying T-Shirts and CDs at the tour shows were the best ways to do that. Sadly turns out I was wrong.

[@lukasschramm9887]

We have it on the day sheet, if there is a venue cut. I know it will be a good day when the 'fee' is one shirt

[@TankTheTech]

Honestly, pro move right there. Everyone should be doing that.

[@philippreicher]

Thanks for the information. As a musician its always good to know that

[@mattpatt199]

This is just what us aussies are like 🤣 straight up no bullshit haha. So much respect for the alpha wolf boys!

[@wepopcreative]

It makes sense, cause so many venues here in Oz are completely destroying musos which is causing venues to shut down. It doesn’t surprise me

[@kevintanis7368]

In any field always read the contract. As an electrician I always get general contractors trying to get free work out of me that is not in our proposal.

[@LacerationMantra1]

Great vid, 👏👏fans have no idea

[@mastamcpoop]

I wonder if the algorithm considers the content of comments when calculating engagement.

[@TankTheTech]

Doubtful. Haha

[@monmixer]

I was working a Box Car Willie show at a medium sized arena in western PA one nice weekend. During the show he always takes a break a few songs before the end and tells the audience where to come and buy his merch. He directed them to his bus in the lot. He told them the venue wanted to much of their money to sell inside or pass the cost to you the hard working audience. They clapped and loved it and went to the bus and bought shirts after show was over. There were 2 shows, a matinee and an evening show.

[@seanstreck3226]

Seems like the Ticketmaster phenomenon. We are gonna add fees for the sake of it. I understand that promoting niche music is extremely risky and grueling for many, but merch fees seem like such an underhanded way of siphoning money off of those who make you money. Like Tank said, if the promoter has a nicely appointed merch table that they set up for you plus a cute and flirty 10/10 to peddle your wares, then by all means a cut is warranted.

[@RamboFett]

Great video, thanks for providing more in--depths info from your experiences, this really helps understanding the whole thing. I've been in a few bands in the past and have attended a lot of concerts and never heard of anything like merch fees before, while I think it's shitty there are clearly some times where the fee makes sense (The big venue providing staff by exemple) but from the most I took out of all this, the way it's being done seems just sketchy and not consistent which can definitely be frustrating.

[@Garbox80]

Soo... you're possibly even paying rent for the venue to use it, and yet you have to pay a cut of your sales too? If the venue has *hired* your band, meaning you get paid by them and not just by the ticket sales, I can maybe hesitantly swallow the cut as an "sales spot rent". And of course if the venue is handling the sales, they have to be paid for their work. That's a no-brainer. This is clearly something that has to change. Bands should start arranging separate merch sales events before the show somewhere else (like a record store, but then they probably couldn't sell their records themselves) if the venue is demanding a cut (and not doing anything to earn it) and not sell merch on spot at all. That'll be an unnecessary hassle too though, and would probably end up being a loss of sales.

[@kaeseblock1362]

This was really interesting. Thank you Tank.👍

[@joeschmoe5009]

Question, if this is a common thing and takes such a large chunk, would it be better to buy merch online instead of at shows if its available?

[@TankTheTech]

I still maintain that every little thing helps bands on tour, especially merch. But if you're more comfortable knowing that your money is contributing more directly to the band, buy directly from their official merch stores. Or if you're at a venue, ask their merch manager, them, or the seller what the percentage is that night.

[@drewciferf3293]

If it's a small venue, I still say buy the merch from the band at the show. That $30 shirt, still helps get people fed, puts gas in the van/ bus and can help with a myriad of issues that can go wrong on the road

[@rippedgenes]

@@TankTheTech Merch stores are still taking a cut. I'd think It's rare the band is running a site themselves. Online Merch stores like KillThe8 who also arrange all the printing and getting items to the venues have to get paid as well.

[@Rocketsong]

@@rippedgenes Plus everyone always underestemates actual shipping costs. Everyone is so used to "Free" Amazon shipping these days they don't realize it costs $4 to ship a CD, or $6-8 to ship a T-shirt. Someone has to pay that as well.

[@jon-paulfilkins7820]

Who's manning the merch stall? If its the bands people, they should keep it all. If the Venue is supplying the staff, a cut to pay the staff seems fair. Now the venue is also taking is taking a part of the door charge already. There was a pub venue round here (long gone) they would buy X amount of merch from the band wholesale and sell it themselves, often there were some left overs, but they would be gone in a few days because people who were short of cash that night would come back and buy a CD or shirt. Sadly the venue got sold out from under them.

[@TankTheTech]

100% in agreement with you. If someone else, whether it's the venue, a concession company, festival staff, or whatever is selling your band's merch, a fee should be agreeable. Any other time, it's just easy money for the promoters and/or venues.

[@pitpride1220]

Super informative man! Love this kind of content from you.

[@TheRobertJohnsen]

Here's one for you guys... In the 80's. Pay to play started ruining the game. I actually had 5 bouncers surround me demanding that I pay for $100 of unsold tickets or they would take my bass cab. Well, they got it... We work hard as musicians and get the business end of the poo stick. ...

[@TankTheTech]

Oh don’t get me started on pay-to-play.

[@zvolencan1]

@@TankTheTech Yes, please. :)

[@nowwithdave]

@@TankTheTech Yeah, bro, please do a pay to play vid. That shit is rampant in the S. Florida scene. I'd love to hear your thoughts.

[@TankTheTech]

@@nowwithdave That's a solid idea, man.

[@mbo191]

@@TankTheTech - I am looking forward to that video. Cheers / B. Edit: I am already looking forward to that video.

[@Spooky_Kitsune]

I really enjoy these videos about the behind the scenes stuff, really interesting to learn how things in the industry work

[@danbelow90]

Unions are a pretty good thing in those cases. Cause one band alone can't do anything. But if no one signs the contracts at the venues, that won't leave the fees out, anymore, things might change. For now, it just seems to be free money for the venues.

[@teemumantynen1300]

Well, it depends on few things. If a band or a tour comes to a venue / festival with bunch of merch and no staff of their own, venue / festival has to hire someone to do the merch for the band(s) which is an extra cost for the venue / festival, that will be covered by that mentioned 20% or what ever the deal happens to be. When it's a festival, you have to cover the costs of the tent to be set up as it eventually is and everything costs money to festival. When it's just an empty table that venue is providing, that's a completely different thing

[@Brian-kl1gf]

Hey Tank I had no idea this was happening..I can understand that you'd need to pay a separate vendors fee but to take 20% for doing nothing except promoting that show..just another reason that the music buisness as a whole is going right down the toilet...Music is a dirty buisness after all..Very sad... Peace..

[@jubbelidiot]

This made me look up the merch fees at the venue I normally go to concerts at. Its 10 t-shirts (as in physical shirts), and if you need them to provide a staff member to help sell your merch, its 500 DKK ($71) for the night. Its a small non-profit venue with a capacity of 1150 people, but I think that's kinda wholesome

[@tobyb.5992]

I mean, if it's in the contract it's definitely not "stealing". But I get the clickbait... Technically the venue at least provides the space for setting up the merch table. So you can see it as a kind of sales stand rental. Is it fair? I would say, it depands on the split. But in the end a venue manager could also say, we don't want merch sales at our venue or something like that. Bands wouldn't have to pay fees. But I'm pretty sure that's not what a band would want either. In my opinion, the merch fee is not necessarily a bad thing, as long as nobody gets greedy (what probably happens a lot, just because people are a**holes) and as long as it fits into the rest of the contract. Merch fees may have influence on other fees or profit shares... But for sure, if the band gets more money, it's better for the band. No doubt about that. :)

[@TankTheTech]

Yeah, you can’t really do anything about a contract. And the only reason I worded it as “stealing” is because that’s what a lot of bands say it is. In the case of venues trying to take merch fees that aren’t contracted, it basically is. But if it’s built into that contract, it’s not stealing, it’s business.

[@Annastasia666]

Soooo so interesting! Thanx for going into detail about how this all works.

[@lazarusblack9995]

For everybodies edification, this is also how indoor malls work. That FYE or Lids or Body Shop you love, pays Simon Malls a rent based on their square foot PLUS a cut of their profit. So, it's not a "music" industry thing. This is a common retail practice.

[@purrpleunicorn]

as someone who did light and sound for a small local club in the mid west we charged a flat fee for the bill not a percentage of sales.......we usually had the headliner would pay the whole fee yo give the openers more cash in pocket, but we were the odd man out in the business, or so we were told by the talent.but thank you for the update, also this is a great us for a fan club or street team.

[@bassman87]

Here's a creative answer to this. Jack the price of your merch up to cover the cost of the fee, then have a QR code to the bands website where you sell the same merchandise at the normal price. This way you're still getting expected sales, you're providing options for those wanting merchandise right away and don't care about the price vs those who want to 100% support the band and are price conscious. The key is letting you're fans know that this is what you're doing and why. At the end of the day your band is a business, and just like any business you set your prices based on costs + fixed margin.

[@JJMetalhead]

Enlightening video! I’m curious how much venues take from ticket sales. If they’re already getting their cut from ticket sales, they should keep their hands off the merch unless their staffing it.

[@jamiesanders6734]

Interesting vid, thx Tank!

[@tobyklase8179]

I sent this to my friend in a band. Thanks Tank!

[@JoeKyser]

Any platform is somewhere around 12% total. FYI ebay for example charges you your fee based on the gross income. That sucks because sales tax varies from state to state

[@Rabant777]

It would be good to see a round table discussion on this topic with all stakeholders: agents, venue managers, promoters, merch rights holders etc. At a low level (small venue, small band, small audience) there must be a symbiotic relationship in order to share the risk and mitigate the losses. After all, if one part of the ecosystem fails, all parts are at risk. At some levels, in some locations venues and promoters frequently make a loss, and need both successful shows and alternative income streams in order to stay afloat. An example I have experience of is a conversation I witnessed where a band attracted only 12 paying customers (I'm not negating the part that the venue / promoter plays in attracting customers). As a consequence the venue owner was going to be substantially out of pocket and mitigated some of the loss by renegotiating the fee before the show by offering to provide the band with the video files from the venue's in-house camera system, and soundboard recording. The band took the offer and subsequently edited the footage and created a dvd product that sold well

[@BigBadBalrog]

First time here, but it's an easy sub. My gut reaction is to side with the bands 100%, and I still mostly do, but you added some really valuable nuance

[@TankTheTech]

Thanks a ton!