A Roadie's Take On "Pay To Play" & Tour Buy-Ons

[@Scyber_Official]

5:23 I'm not shocked that you brought up "The Rave/Eagles Ballroom" in Milwaukee - I've worked there several times on & off since 2002 under different "managers and owners" and can tell you first hand that the VENUE REALLY IS OWNED BY THE MAFIA and has been since since the 1930s. My Grandfather (RIP) told me this when I started working there back in '02 and told me a long detailed story about how HIS DAD AND GRANDFATHER were hassled by the owners because my family owned a florist shop on that side of town back in the 1920s-1940s & how my Great Grandfather ended up having to do business with them even though he didn't want to, but he needed to support 4 kids and his wife back in the depression. It was an EXTREMELY eye opening story & I learned A LOT about how business deals were done back then. Ever since I heard that story, I've always had BAD experiences working there, as well as going to concerts. The venue really is haunted. The bar staff & security are EXTREMELY AGGRESSIVE towards fans they don't like (like physically assaulting concert-goers with ZERO repercussions from the Milwaukee Police department). People may say "well don't work there or even see shows there" but it really is THE only venue in Wisconsin that's consistently bringing in top music acts from around the world - Plus I work as a sound engineer & stagehand, so I needed the work to pay my bills from time to time.

[@calebwasthere420]

The rave was a home away from home for me back in the day 😭

[@calebwasthere420]

The Miramar is my favorite though. A lot of good up and coming artists

[@Garbox80]

We met a Polish band one time with our previous band. They had been offered an opportunity to play in some big festival in Poland some years earlier and of course they agreed. No pay, but didn't have to pay themselves either. And there were big bands there too, so it was a great opportunity. Well, when they arrived to the festival there was the person who briefed bands about stuff and he/she had said that "you guys just wait here for your turn, don't go anywhere. The buffet isn't for you, you're not allowed there". The soundcheck was before the gates opened for the day, so quite early. They hadn't brought anyrhing to eat with them (maybe some snacks/candy). While they were hanging backstage a guy came to greet them. Steve Harris. They were huge Maiden fans, so they were obviously excited. Steve asked them how's it going and when they said that they can't wait to get on stage, but also starting to feel hungry, Steve had said "There's a whole buffet there, why don't you eat?". They told that they were strictly denied to go there. Harris' reaction? "WTF?! That's BS! There's so much food that it won't run out if five people more eat there. Now you guys go and eat and if someone has a problem, tell them to come talk with me." They were a "bit" 😯, but thanked and went to eat. They had met Steve later somewhere too (and some other Maiden members I think) and told that those guys are super nice towards the "mortals", zero attitude. They know their worth obviously, but apparently use it for the good rather than snobbing. I very well understand that smaller bands don't get paid to play in these events, but there's a buffet anyway and they don't even get to eat!?! Come on.

[@MVProfits]

Great story. Steve is in so many of these similar stories. Hard to not like the guy even more ha ha.

[@BangBang-hk4rg]

🤘UP THE IRONS🤘

[@robertanderson1986]

Promoters spend big money to produce a show. Everything has to be paid. If your band is getting the Shaft, they need proper Judgement and Management

[@robertanderson1986]

When I worked with small Bands , if we were " In and Out"gigs. We would make food on the Bus as we travel, Everyone eats. Ask for nothing, a lot of times you get a lot given to the Band like Food, Labor and I have seen bands get a " Prepaid Debit Card" to buy fuel to travel. Especially if you are working with the same Promotion on multiple performances.

[@danwhitehurst6293]

If you’re not paying someone you should at least feed them

[@SurfCityVideo]

I used to manage a band. They were decent, did some national TV and toured with some major acts. Our policy was to walk away from pay to play. All bands should.

[@ferox965]

My band is doing alright. We will not do pay to play. The only time we did was the International Blues Competition in Memphis (We're Canadian). We weren't paid, but we made a ton of connections for festivals. If pay to play is on the table, we refuse. Montreal is known for pay to play. Anytime I put on my bass and perform, I expect to be paid (guesting or jam sessions are exempt).

[@muzmason3064]

There's a lot of buy on but for exposure of a live act to Joe public, I can see the reason for that for sure but in general I agree walk away. In the uk record company's would put up and coming on tour supporting headliners. Fans just get ripped by greedy promotion setups pricing needs to change greed is bad!

[@jcbuckeye]

Maybe that's why they never took that next step. I say be picky and know your audience.

[@ChristianIce]

It's a good policy if you can put together your own shows, yet the "All bands should" doesn't make sense. It's promotion, and promotion costs money. You can make yourself known without it, maybe it will take 8 extra years. You can also invest a lot of money to buy a spot with a gigantic band and be known from one day to the next. My suggestin would be: If you do it, do it right, buy a spot that matters. Paying few bucks for small events really doesn't get you anywhere.

[@dsxa918]

I would say if Tank is correct, that something of an expectation that a certain amount of tickets will be sold isn't really that different - I don't like pay to play but as an inexperienced musician making their name for themselves, it's maybe not an unreasonable expectation. But a small band would not be a beginning band, ostensibly and buying 50 tickets to even sell half could be great exposure. Smaller bands playing national stuff might be a good experience as it is, but meme aside it might not be ridiculous. You guys are right totally, know your expectations with scene like this. It's better than the venue taking merchandise fees.

[@1jpdrums]

I was in a band that did 2nd stage on Ozzfest in 2006. We played between 9 and 11am in rotation with the 7 other morning bands that all paid a $75k fee to be on that stage. This doesn’t include transportation and other costs; I think a cheap bus at the time would run you a grand a day. We were waived the buy on fee because of being on the label of the singer of the headliner that year. We had a few off day gigs which is where we made enough money to stay on the road with ozzfest. We did that tour for $9500 in expenses(6k on gas alone). That was Most fun I’ve ever had on a tour and the most broke we ever were doing one. Super thankful for ozzfest catering and all the friends we had made the previous 3 years of touring that put us up. And with that, we had officially ran out of tour support money and and any other money we had. Unfortunately, were never able to capitalize quickly enough on that opportunity and never did tour again.

[@richpeto6207]

which band?

[@1jpdrums]

@@richpeto6207 Bad Acid Trip

[@DM-il1hf]

What up Jose?! We met way back through Dillinger. Hope you’re still playing! 💜🤘

[@1jpdrums]

@@DM-il1hf awesome! Yeah, I’m still playing but the music is much different now.

[@troywilson4694]

@@1jpdrumswild that before reading the comments I knew you were talking about BAT. Miss you guys ❤

[@mikeselectricstuff]

Something sort-of related that I find really stupid, is where an opening band doesn't make the most of the opportunity - they come on, maybe announce who they are at the start, when nobody is paying attention, and the place is half full at best. At the end of the set, they shuffle off without telling the audience, who may have liked them, who they are. Things like backdrops or names on the bass drum are also surprisingly rare - having the band's name clearly visible is going to help the audience remember their name.

[@iancoye]

This is what I've done with every band I've joined or started. I would put our logo or name on the bass drum, and always made a couple styled banners to hang up behind me on drums. Bands that I joined would have more followings and people come to our shows because I personally paid for those visuals stating who we were so people didn't forget us. Each show brought more fanbase for the next show and so on. Now we can sell our tickets quickly because people are willing to come see us as well as us jumping on a tour show they'd normally go see as well. Local venues sometimes do discounted tickets (minus fees and charges) when you buy them directly from the band making it easier to sell.

[@ericbert6551]

2007 my band did a pay to play and got to open for Flyleaf. The venue in question had 3 stages, and most of the time the pay to plays were done to fill the other two rooms. This time though, they had one main stage spot which we got to have. No merch, no CDs, nothing to give the people other than “find us on MySpace.” The crowd seemed to really like us and the three touring bands were really nice and gave us some great advice. Like…bring merch when you open for a national act 🤦

[@kendallevans4079]

Good chance this is all dictated by the opening bands management. They have the say-so over EVERYTHING...It's crazy and paranoid ( in IMO). The headliner WILL NOT have you showing them up in any way. I have heard stories of openers doing so well, and seemed to really being liked and the headliners management will cut them off early (usually they'll fabricate a fake reason) simply because the headliner will get butt hurt....

[@russellg1473]

@@kendallevans4079 live music with more than 1 artist has always devolved into a pissing contest in my experience

[@kendallevans4079]

@@russellg1473 Yup, battle of egos....!

[@Livelaughlimpbizkit]

This dude is speaking all the facts. This is all the reasons I became disillusioned with the touring life. So many leeches who do absolutely nothing yet get cuts as he mentioned in the merch selling fees.

[@kendallevans4079]

Facts!

[@scottmcgregor4829]

I became very untrusting of most people who label themselves with the title of the "promoter".

[@fuzzybutkus8970]

Ok Ringo,Paul and George.

[@kendallevans4079]

@@fuzzybutkus8970 John?

[@ec7125]

Making those bones..is not glamorous...reality sux

[@RedOchsenbein]

Yeah, it's awesome to be a musician in this industry: Tour-Manager: "Yeah, pay for touring with us, its promotion for you, you can make money from Merch and Streaming-Play" Location-Manager: "Ya, pay merch fee, you can make money from Touring and Streaming-Plays." KZbin: "Na, we won't pay you much for each stream, its promotion for you, and you can make the money from Merch and Tours." Label: "Yeah, 360... you know... Pay for all of it... and for the promotion."

[@vvitchtripper]

yuO gOt tO dIvErSivY mAaAAAaaan!

[@oldskoolmark5414]

Label: Now we want a percentage of your merch!

[@MeinGottHatDenLangsten]

The sentiment is spot on, but as I've spent the past two decades and change as a TM and/or tour accountant, i feel the need to point out that we tour managers just try our best to make sure the tour gets to every city with minimal hassle without provoking a mutiny *grin*. We don't make money from the disgusting "pay to play" deals (above our pay grade). We're part of the group of employees who actually still work for a living. The terrible ripoff mentioned herein is mostly done by managers, agents, labels (especially since 360 deals became standard) and sponsors. It's a travesty, for sure... but TMs don't have a stake in this stuff. We're salaried with per diem pay. We're not special - just the people who get yelled at the most 🤣

[@floydburney6060]

@@MeinGottHatDenLangsten ....I'm calling BS on you. Yes, salaried with per-diem (which is still more than the average band member)...But you left out TM also get 20% of the tour gross. Musicians still get screwed & you're one of them doing it to them.

[@TendosTrash]

I played in a band in my early 20’s. Had only ever played a few local venues and bars. Nothing serious. We had a local, yearly festival that had a “youth” stage. At that time, it was a pretty big deal to all us “scene kids” to play on that stage. I saw a Facebook post from the promoter saying there was going to be a battle of the bands, some months prior to the festival, and the top few acts would get to play the festival stage. Naturally, I reached out to the promoter and said I wanted in. His reply was, “you gotta sell tickets to the show to get in, meet me at Starbucks to pick them up.” I rushed right over to Starbucks and got a handful of tickets. Young and inexperienced me figured, if all I had to do was sell a few tickets to friends and family, to get on the show, it was a no brainer. Several of my friends would be down to go anyways. I was lucky enough to have a very supportive friend group and family, so I actually ended up selling quite a few tickets. The week of the battle of the bands came, and I got a message from the promoter saying the show had been canceled/rescheduled. Then followed a couple weeks of confusing messages about the show, and the money for the sold tickets. I had a few uncomfortable conversations with some of the people who had bought tickets from me, including my father. I hated it. Eventually I just kinda wrote it off as a bad experience I would definitely avoid in the future. AND THEN, the week of the actual festival came, the day before, actually, and I get a message from the promoter saying, “you guys go on at 5pm tomorrow.” I’m like, “excuse me?” Turns out, to get all the other bands, who had higher tickets sales off his back, he went ahead and gave those bands slots on the festival stage. He had just forgotten to reach out to me because, I guess, I hadn’t really been breathing down his neck like the others. I had to call in a few favors to fill out my band with random local musicians, in order to play in such short notice. But I definitely learned from that experience and avoided anything that smelled like that from then on. I hadn’t really thought much about it in years, until watching this video. Thanks for sharing!!

[@TankTheTech]

Damn dude, thanks for sharing. I had some of those experiences early on as well, with those battle of the bands that you get invited to and then wind up paying for tickets to play. Haha. Brutal.

[@bobbystereo936]

Same here! 2005 battle of the bands. My band mates talked me outta it. We would've had to sell $10 tickets & pay for what we didn't sell,then stick you in a shitty time slot because of poor ticket sales. We said no, a week later we get a phone call from the promoter, hey! What time you guys gonna load in? Just a $$ making scam.

[@floydburney6060]

....Soooo, did you hand over your money for those tickets at that Starbucks?

[@lucyfuir6386]

I am from Massachusetts I have been doing gigs for 30 years. When I 1st started you couldn't get a gig unless you were a cover band. Then you can only get a gig if you are willing to not get paid. Then it was you have to sell x amount of tickets to get on the bill Now it's straight up give us $500 or you can't get on stage. This happens slowly over the past 25 years and I have not played a gig in 3 years because of this.

[@vincentvanghool6723]

Back when I was working as a rapper, I got approached by a record label that wanted to sign me. They wanted me to pay them $500 a month, and all touring options with my own labelmates were $10,000 buy-ons, I had to pay $1,000 per labelmate if I wanted to collab, and my album would be shelved for 2 years before release. I think the contract stipulated that I was obligated to 2 albums a year, and I'd get $1000 an album. My manager at rthe time, my lawyers and a couple of former artists of that label told me not to do, as I would wind up with negative monies per album, because I had to pay all expenses for studio time and for all my expenses on the road on top of the buy-on fee. I'm really glad they talked me out of it. Oh, and they would own my stage name, likeness, and all of my masters, INCLUDING my back catalogue of 5 albums, 3 eps, and 25 singles, and I wouldn't be paid for that.

[@TankTheTech]

That’d sound like a record deal. That sounds like a straight up scam.

[@vincentvanghool6723]

@@TankTheTech as I said, inevitably, I declined to contract, and founded my own label under which I can release my music and still own the rights to it, my likeness, my name, and my back catalogue. I'm SIGNIFICANTLY happier.

[@toddlavigne6441]

unless you blew up on a massive scale that deal is horrible

[@vincentvanghool6723]

@@toddlavigne6441 that's why I said no, and started my own.

[@t.c.v.t.]

"working as a rapper" tells us all we need to know about your rapping.

[@tanktop8572]

I love these videos that give you a peek behind the scenes in the music industry. Keep it up Tank

[@mcmanusrichard]

Well said. My band got offered a spot at the Whisky and jumped on it. We’re not from Cali so travel, hotels and food on top of the $500 tickets buy out put us in the hole about $2000. But that resume bullet has given us some local weight as well as checking the bucket list. Btw, the whisky staff was awesome to us. We’ll probably go back at some point. Live the content. Keep spreading the word. 🤘

[@scalefreakgaming]

That makes great sense. A long time ago, I saw In This Moment open up for Megadeth. Never heard of them before. ITM floored me with an amazing show, and I have dropped a lot on their albums and merch since. It works out.

[@FINELINEVAN]

You are a smart guy and wise in your outlook. I played many gigs my life being 64 now live in Nashville. Over my years I saw many young bands get sucked into this situation I might have myself when younger. Your advice hopefully will make some of these young bands think before jumping in. And being used. Me I’m happy just doing clubs around this town still and enjoying life. Love your channel.

[@jakeishere]

I played a show this one time. I was in the headlining band as well as the opening band. The promoter made us as an opening band buy our tickets up front. He at least gave us a deal for half off. What I did was stand out front of the venue and sell them for a dollar less than what the venue was charging. Sold all of my tickets though.

[@MrChopsticktech]

I'm surprised you got a way with it.

[@theofficialdiamondlou2418]

Scalped your own show .... classic 😂😂🤣✌️

[@TheTsunamijuan]

if your going to sell tickets from a pay to play, write your bands name on them IMO, helps let the place and promotors know whose doing the working and bringing peeps in

[@petergumbrill1898]

Very clever idea, but didn't that clash with the time you were supposed to be on playing? Ie wouldn't the opening band have been due to be on really early, at the same time most people were arriving? How did you manage to be in two places at the same time? - Genius idea though. :-)

[@jakeishere]

@@petergumbrill1898 doors opened at 7. I didnt start till 8. I was there at 3 for setup and soundcheck.

[@dlvox5222]

My buddy got signed in the 90’s. They learned the hard way that every penny spent on the band is fronted and basically a loan that gets paid back FIRST when the budget reconciliations occur quarterly. Most bands run in the red, even if a record and tour does very well. The expenses are fixed and the revenue is variable.

[@MrChopsticktech]

I didn't get signed or play out in the Nineties, but several of the Guitar/Bass magazines here in the US frequently had interviews and/or columns by musicians that explained the business/touring side, so my friends and I knew it wasn't going to be easy! Those stories were much more useful to us than lessons on tapping, modes etc.

[@Pushrod_Criff]

Most bands don’t do their homework. You’d usually be in the red until your 3rd album dropped that’s the break even point. So much easier to remain independent in todays scene.

[@Tim85-y2q]

The problem is that a lot of bands see (or saw) signing as the end of the rainbow, when it's more akin to the start of the journey. Since labels don't know which acts are going to blow up huge, they sign everyone with some buzz knowing that out of 30 or 40 acts they might get 1 or 2 big hits. Those 1 or 2 bands will make a ton of money, everyone else, not so much.

[@toddlavigne6441]

As much as that sucks, you open any business and you have to pay all your operating expenses before you can even pay yourself. Any business is tough. But the odds of success are probably as low as they can get in the music business. Even if you or your band are incredible you need the masses to appreciate this and support you.

[@floydkingi4364]

Definitely, all that money the Record Company spend on you, you have to pay back!

[@mbo191]

Thanks Tank for the quick response to all our questions on this subject! Cheers / B.

[@alexalive9742]

I absolutely love those insight videos, as well as reactions on things you can actually deliver something interesting on, like the Stevie T country reaction or the Dave Mustaine comment. Keep doing these, please. By the way, we did one of these bigger pay-to-play gigs and got absolutely nothing out of it. It was a scheduled all-day festival comparible to Vans Warped, and what naturally happened was that the fans of the two, three main bands showed up some time in the evening, degrading the first half of the day to your average local gig with bands playing just in front of other bands and their girlfriends.

[@angryshack]

I remember learning that this was a thing when I heard a story about Crazy Town paying to be on the Ozzfest tour, even though at the time they were a "top 10" band. It doesn't surprise me that there is "pay to play" and buy-ins, I've worked in the air cargo industry for 10+ years now and even there, if there is any space for a person or a company to become a "middleman" to make some extra money, you better believe that gap will be filled very quickly.

[@excxmoody]

didn't think pay to play was as common as mentioned

[@happybenjful]

Crazy town we're terrible live

[@kendallevans4079]

Greed....it's in every industry. If a vampire smells blood and can figure out a way to make $$ by squeezing his name in there, they'll do it.

[@erikstorm8935]

Yeah I was about to mention Ozzfest. All sorts of stories back in the day about 'pay to play'. Dont know how exaggerated it was, but it seemed to be a thing.

[@randa4382]

@@happybenjful was at that riverbend ozzfest show and they got booed right off i do believe...

[@jakestauffer.musicx]

This dude speaks nothing but the truth. Great videos man! Always get a little nostalgic listening to tour stories.

[@TankTheTech]

Thanks man!

[@jjerkamillo]

The Whiskey A-Go-Go was notorious for doing this shit to small town SoCal bands. My old band fell for it a couple times. One time they overbooked the show and threw us on after the headliner, so we played to an empty room lol. Once we signed to a major and they couldn't do this to us anymore, so instead they gouged us with merch sale skimming, fuck that venue 😂

[@relativetimeworx8459]

The "glory days" of the Sunset Strip, every venue did this and the bands ended up giving the tix away to ensure there were pulses in the room.

[@bobbystereo936]

Shit! I've play in front of the trash can. That's it! Bartender of you wanna include that?

[@FortressofShred]

I'd never play the Whisky. Fuck that place. That owner has their head so far up their ass.

[@FranciscoRodriguez-ly9so]

Yup, I played the whisky twice both things it was pay to play. Once my “band” opened for a bigger band that was capable of selling out the venue we played at, we still had to do PAY TO PLAY. People were hung up on “but it’s the same stage Jim Morrison played on” but those days are long gone.

[@tooernn]

Thank you tank, the content where you teach of how the industry/music/whatever is one of my favorite content. Thanks man for this vid! 🙏

[@Goldie1977]

I’ve been out of the loop for a decade myself so I don’t know how it compares these days!? I was in a metal band called Tribe - the band is long time dead. This was around 2009/10. We toured the UK with Hammerfall and Dream Evil. 5 dates as opening band. That cost us £1200 which was at ‘mates rates’ because we knew the tour promoter very well. This was basically to cover his costs of advertising the tour in uk magazines. Metal hammer/Kerrang/Terrorizer etc. We did sell quite a lot of merch but it only covered our expenses to travel, diesel, hotels and food. It didn’t cover the £1200. The tour was a success and we made friends with people we are still friends with today. Straight after that we got offered two buy on tours. Both 30 date European opening act tours with Lordi and WASP respectively. £26k for each tour. Yes £26,000. We had no backing/support at the time (we were working with a label that we’d had to pay to release our record worldwide - Monte Connor said if we were American then roadrunner would’ve snapped us up and put us out with Nickleback on tour etc) and all had homes, jobs, kids etc so there was no way we could fund it so we declined both tours. The band didn’t last much longer after that 😂. I’ve known bands borrow £28k from their parents to do full European tours supporting bands like Magnum and just breaking even too. On the flip side I was drum teching for my good friends Evile supporting Sepultura on their 30th anniversary tour. Derrick Green was adamant that Evile were the band on that tour. Huge fan of the band and wouldn’t take no for an answer. He also said they didn’t want Evile buying on the tour in any way shape or form whatsoever. This is the biggest band I’ve known do this as the emphasis seems to always be on money and the business side of everything. (Absolute gentleman of a bloke, in fact the whole seps band and crew were just fantastic). UK punk/folk/rock stalwarts New Model Army don’t ask for buy on’s either. They only ask bands they like to open for them. Not enough bands do this for me. It’s all money money money and never in the bands pocket 💙🎼🤘

[@BeatsAndMeats]

Monte Connor, David Bason, and Mike Gitter from Roadrunner we’re all top class dudes.

[@Goldie1977]

@@BeatsAndMeats Monte Said he would’ve signed us (Tribe) straight away if we weren’t English but as it fell under a different territory he couldn’t do anything about it. We needed all 33 uk execs to say yes over here to get a deal and we got 2/3. What could’ve been 😜…

[@BeatsAndMeats]

@@Goldie1977 Damn… do you know how many HUGE bands Monte had signed? I scouted a band and got Monte to come see them. RR East Coast U.S. offered them a contract. If they would’ve signed, I would’ve gotten a job as an A&R guy for their LA office, but the band turned them down. ☹️ They ended up signing to Indianola the same month that A Day To Remember signed, so they got no push and flopped. They were such a sick band… Odd Project

[@garyhen2028]

I love your videos man, as a drummer primarily, I think it's very cool your pulling that curtain back some, to put light on how things work. Much respect!

[@TheBiglittlebugger]

What a great video! Everything said was 100 percent true!!!!!

[@KitKrash]

Old guy here. Back in the 90’s we were signed to a label who saw us play locally in NYC where we are from. The label payed for us to tour Europe, even giving us a per diem of $75 (maybe equivelant to $250 today as the dollar to deutchmarks and franks were very high - no Euros then) a day to just enjoy ourselves with or save. We opened for Prodigy, The Chemical Brothers, even Kraftwerk. We didn’t shell a dime ever for anything. We were promoted with posters in the local cities and were set up with radio stations to do interviews. If I asked any musician from my time that today people will think that there is a legitimate concept called ‘Pay for Play’ or ‘Tour Buy-Ons’ they would be as shocked as I am hearing this. The labels payed up front and took the expenses out of CD sales (of which we actually didn’t sell very many in comparison to other artists on the label), so we didn’t make money, but we didn’t lose money either. I think social media being a pay for play promotion vehicle has legitimized pay for pay all across the board for artists. What does this mean for culture. Also when I was even younger as a total unknown, I could play a venue like CBGBs. No one said which band they went to see, so all bands regardless of popularity were paid evenly. But the culture back then as an audience is that you may have come to see a specific band but looked forward to seeing three bands and getting exposed to something new. Established bands were fine and even ecouraging in sharing the stage with new comers whos music they liked. Such a different scene and I am glad I lived it. I would never want to be a professional musician in today’s world.

[@pin-upmariposa412]

I forgot about premiere (I dig in wrestling too much) but I would like to say that appreciate your knowledge. I know it's experience taked from your work and touring time. Still it's fantastic that you want to share it with us. Thank you very much. ❤️

[@TankTheTech]

Thanks Mariposa!

[@NiniMusic]

Thanks for videos like these. People not in the scene don't understand the sort of struggle musicians go through to just try and survive off of their music. I can't believe that those fests would charge though.. I can understand paying in exposure but to charge is just criminal.

[@GorgonsAlter]

I was the drummer/ vocalist in my old band and I think the most money I made personally in the 10 years I did touring was maybe 60$. Everything had to be divvied up to cover overhead: Merch, gas, lodging, food ( beer). We toured with Dark Castle, opened for Zoroaster, Bong Ripper, The Showdown, Baroness, mouth of the Architect. But we made nothing but memories. I say all this to say I can't imagine on top of overhead, factoring in the venue/ promoters charging us to play. Wild

[@OneoftheLastBand]

Great video Tank! Really enjoy these insightful breakdowns. Pay to Play is an interesting concept. What it should be is for promoters to see which local band can draw and help them play bigger shows down the line. What it became is promotors getting a raw deal from a booking agent and taking it out on local bands. We're in the NYC area and I don't think we've ever played a show that wasn't some sort of pay to play. Logic being there's a shit ton of NYC local bands and not too many spots. We get that. What we don't get is wanting to open up for a bigger band and getting the old "no problem...but can you also take this show from some one hit wonder from the 80s and sell 50 tickets at $20 each?" If you fail to do that, you magically don't hear back from the promoters about the show you originally wanted! There are some great promoters in the area and we work with them all the time. Others just use the allure of "playing in NYC" as a chance to rip you off hundreds/thousands of dollars. Quick story: we opened up for a band that was signed to Metal Blade Records and had to sell $1k worth of tickets to play. It was the only area show and the venue wasn't too big so we decided to do it. For the locals, the show was in Queens NY and we're based out of Brooklyn. We had a bunch wanting to come out since they supported us and loved the headliner. Right before we get the tickets, the headliner decided to add 4 OTHER AREA SHOWS, one being in Brooklyn! We tried to jump on the Brooklyn show but that promoter had their locals picked out already. We were stuck on the Queens show and of course all the people that were interested...were going to the Brooklyn show! Long story short, we paid a lot out of pocket to play. It gets better: we then find out there were 6 OTHER LOCALS on this show! The show sucked since we didn't sound like every other band and got screwed royally. Live and learn I guess but we haven't found any venues that don't do pay to play in the NYC area. Could anyone recommend any?

[@teenageanarchist861]

I love these types of videos Tank! I have promoted a lot of shows in Vienna (Austria) and some in the countryside around. Pay to play was always an absolute no go. There's also the "you get x amount of money per ticket you sell" kinda deal, that gets confused with pay to play a lot of times. This sometimes comes with a "you need to sell y amounts of tickets to get x amount per ticket". I'd love a take on Bandcontests, as those are a controversial topic too

[@NealVio]

To open for Van Halen - You don't get paid at all and the management handles merch sales. One story - when Ed found out, "Hey Al, these guys aren't getting paid". They pushed to get the opening act to get paid but to no avail.

[@gostrangely9674]

Around 2005, all of the venues in our city decided to start making bands sell tickets to their gigs. We would receive $1-$2 per ticket. We would consistently sell 100+ tickets to all age 21+ attendees (that loved to drink). We did the math and Venues were making on average $3k when we played, promoters on average $350 (for doing absolutely nothing). When we started asking for a flat fee of $500 they ghosted us. Fuck the live scene. I put a significant time of my existence on this planet working to create a viable, professional product, only for the bloodsucking vampire "promoters" (they did shit to promote anything) and bars to leech every penny they could from our hard work. I miss the energy, but I dont miss being exploited.

[@Pushrod_Criff]

Oh damn right brother!!! I remember those times extremely well…. They would always sell us on “exposure” 🙄🙄 yeah that doesn’t pay for studio time, merch, gas,gear….you name it!!! Great comment bro!!

[@LunarWolf]

Quit playing live for the same reason. Can completely relate to your last statement.

[@lunatictumor]

For real. I have known so many "pRoMoTeRs" over the years that just booked gigs and collected money. Shameful.

[@brianpinion5844]

i had a friend in death medal band and he told me pretty much same thing, he had to sale so many tickets just to open for other guys

[@deloresadkins8525]

Yea I had to just learn to love recording. Playing live was so much fun but no payoff except adrenaline rush.

[@ByronNemeth]

Brilliant video 🤘

[@fixpedalboards1969]

It’s not really related but my pay to play story is this: Back in the early 90’s I was in a band that was offered a demo deal (remember those?) from Warner Bros. Which is code for our singer had interest from a few majors. They invited us to a big party they were having at their office in Burbank where they had this humongous movie screen showing the pay-per-view fight of Tyson rematch against Buster Douglas so that’s the time period (he knocked him out in like five seconds so the party was very short to say the least) however at the time our A&R guy got a little lubed up and told us that because there were so many bands in LA to sort through at the time any band that took p2p gigs (Gazarri’s, The Roxy, The whiskey or the Troubadour) were immediately dismissed because “ they are riding a wave that’s too close to shore and we’re looking for the next big wave yet to hit“ I’m glad it didn’t work out I know that people who don’t make it always say that but we were NOT ready (they suspected that too which is why they had demo deals to begin with) At the end of the day I got good story to tell and as many free CD’s as I could carry from the Warner vault. Great Channel!

[@TankTheTech]

Pretty rad story!

[@nyaxzuldoraghor5673]

There was never a Tyson- Douglas rematch. Maybe you were watching a REPLAY? And the knockout didn’t happen in 5 seconds haha it was the 10th or 11th round I believe. The fight went the distance damn near.

[@fixpedalboards1969]

@@nyaxzuldoraghor5673 I’m sure you’re right…it was probably some other fight… remember that our memory works different than we think we it does. We’re more likely to remember the last way we told the story as opposed to what actually happened. It likely it got corrupted (I don’t wanna think about how many gallons of booze have been filtered through my brain since 1992) somewhere along the way and I started telling it that way I do know that it was 1992, a big fight and it was over in a few seconds or what felt like a few seconds definitely not late rounds. Tyson might’ve already been locked up for all I know to be honest with you I’m not really a historian of that stuff that’s just the way I remember. One thing I’m quite clear on is when they let us in the vault to take whatever CDs we wanted while I was grabbing all kinds of ones I wanted to listen to, our bass player was grabbing all kinds of pop crap like Madonna and whatever big sellers would’ve been on WEA in 1992. I remember saying holy crap Charles are you on acid?!? He taught me a valuable lesson though, he hit every used cd store in the valley the next day and probably pulled down $1000 (and those were with the ones with the holes in them which got a dollar less!). Just like those guys in that Seattle documentary that figured out to go to the dollar store and got several rolls of all the colors of drink tickets. Tank is at the rider level but when you’re still scraping your mohawk on the roof of the 15 passenger van?! that’s shear brilliance!

[@MeinGottHatDenLangsten]

When i was at WBR in the early 00s (last "class" with physical product and barely-watched expense accounts), I kept my office stocked with promotional product solely for the reason you mentioned: having stuff for people to sell when they needed money. I figured Warner ripped enough people off over the years - they owed it to the musicians who came through the office. I miss that building so much. (The "forest" building - what a beautiful place to work) They moved downtown and I haven't even seen the new building. Good riddance. Glad you avoided being exploited by that machine. 😃

[@chrisw5742]

@@nyaxzuldoraghor5673 The staged fight you mean? YEp all his fights were fake. "Sports ENTERTAINMENT"......

[@Hfoutdoorsyt]

It’s the same with social media agents. Companies recoup the ad and promotion for channels/pages to get them views and followers. .. good discussion. Thanks for posting

[@viggler]

I was in bands active in Chicago from '04-'19. One of my bands was very anti-pay-to-play, except our singer the one who always wanted the exposure. It was always the same story with him: "Hey, I got us a show opening up for (insert mid-level metal band)" Us: "We're not selling tickets." Him: "Don't worry, you guys don't have to sell any tickets." Then him day of the show: "Uh, I need forty bucks from everyone or they say we can't play." Some shows we did like HOB, Mojo's/Forge and Reggies were good mainly because there was always a crowd and the venue and crews were always pro and nice. House of Blues even paid us $200 over and put us up in their small rehearsal room with beers and cold-cuts. Those three places were the typical one or two local bands opening for a touring act. Bada Brew was the worst experience, when we got there, there were like 10 bands in the parking lot all expecting to open up for some has-been metal band and no one knew what was going on. I remember our singer, with cash in one hand and unsold tickets in the other talking to some guy. He comes back still holding the money and tickets and said we were going on second or fourth and we just left, with the money and tickets. Honestly, if you're going to commit like $400 to playing a show you need to come up with a plan other than just being really good musicians. We never had a banner, or custom drum heads or T-shirts or CDs, nothing that would make people remember us. We were just five guys in a garage trying to drink and party. Once, after we got off stage from a P2P show at The Forge a guy walked up to me at the bar and introduced himself as the guitar player from Disturbed (which wasn't even the band on the bill) and said he thought we were really good. All I could do was mutter "Uh, thanks... Check out our Myspace." Crickets... And that was the extent of our conversation. True story!

[@prettyponymonster]

Lmao once I played a bar in the middle of nowhere, PA, and there was who said he was the guitarist for a big metal act. I think it was Alice Cooper or something so I Google the guys name (who he said he was) and it was like a massively jacked dude huge muscles. The guy I was talking to looked like a slinky with a whole ass different face 😅 he did buy us a round of shots though

[@RasCuban33]

Played in the late 90’s early 2000’s, punk/ska NYC circuit. Never had to pay to play, played CBGBs, Wetlands, Hard Rock Cafe, BB Kings, Knitting Factory, Tramps, Roseland Ballroom, NEVER HAD TO PAY TO PLAY!

[@whatinthehellisrickydoing7116]

Reminds of friends of mine who were playing music in the early 1980’s through the mid 90’s. They were a folk duo doing well playing the bars and mini festivals in the NE. They got signed by a mid sized label that specialized in Folk and Indie music. and within a year they were making a little money. Interestingly 1/2 of their sales were in Europe . So the label told them they needed to do a 20 date tour in Europe to support their newest. album. Excited,They signed the contract without reading the terms and financials(no agent) Tour goes good, several shows sold out, Merch and CD’s sold well. They get back and sit down with the label to settle and that was when they found out that everything spent on the tour comes out of their money first. They ended up over 10k in the hole . It got nasty when the label wanted them to do a Canadian tour , but they refused fearing they would go worst in debt. Label dropped them. They got fed up with the struggle and got day jobs. It was another 2 years before they saw the first royalty check.

[@floydburney6060]

....Yup....That's how its done.....

[@DominickChirchirillo]

I was from Chicago too, if I remember correctly The Riviera did that a bunch in the '90s too.

[@joeshoe6184]

Ah the Riv.

[@jamiemcparland]

This is why my band never went anywhere. We refused to do this stuff. But, at the end of the day I have a record that we released 15 years ago that i'm super proud of, and we never did anything we felt gross about.

[@KevinBower-gy5be]

Pay to play is 100% OK. My band opened for Black Sabbath at a festival in Hyde Park, England. It cost us £5k. But we absolutely nailed it, we made a lot of new fans who bought a lot of albums, and we sold £10k in merch on the day. I'd call that a win.

[@bschuss1]

I was totally unaware of this, so thanks for making this video, Tank! Explains why ever so often you have support acts that don't fit the headliner _at all_, always wondered how that happens. I do wonder how much this happens in different countries though, because local acts only opening for a single show is something I don't see often in Germany. But then again, I mostly see foreign bands, so it might be different when they are coming over. Anyway, I think if bands DO decide to do this, the most crucial thing to turn it into a success is being available to talk to people afterwards. Being at the merch for a bit, taking pics, all that. Otherwise, many people will basically forget to check them out, even if they think they were pretty decent.

[@TankTheTech]

Yup. Many bands forget that there is super important work to be done off stage, especially when you're trying to win people over.

[@vincentknipping9496]

It happens a lot in Germany too. And you’re absolutely right, you have to make it worth it and put enough effort into that day 👍🏻

[@DeadlyRivfader]

I remember when i saw Udo many years ago. They came to Sweden and had two opening acts. Sister Sin who fit perfectly with Udo, and some death/hardcore band I dont remember the name of that didnt fit at all. For years I have wondered how they ended up there and this might be how.

[@Mr_Clean]

Vans warped tour used to give bands a choice between either getting paid or a van to use for the tour. One of the other.

[@djlurch1049]

1989 was the first time I saw the pay to play in action. The local live music venue I worked at used it to try and break even on weeknight shows and of course the openers for big acts that came through on the weekends. I could see both sides of it and your perspective is right on the mark. So funny to see it is still in practice. Great video

[@339blackdiamond]

Man... been dreaming of this since I was 6, but every time I digg deeper into bands and touring, the more hopeless it feels.

[@TankTheTech]

Never know until you get out there, though. Even with all of the shit that was thrown at us when I was in bands, it was still an invaluable experience and ultimately got me to where I'm at now.

[@thevanburenagency6664]

@@TankTheTech agree! if nothing else hiring managers love tour stories in job interviews

[@giffimarauder]

Videos from Your point of view and experiences about 'behind the scenes' You released the last time gave so much insight. That was really interesting and new to me, I would like to see You sharing more of these kind of informations.

[@MaggotCorpseMusik]

One of my local promoters doesn’t do buy ons, but he gives you better time slots depending on ticket sales, more tickets sold you get a better slot later in the show. We did this with Soulfly and got direct support slot for opening that show while 3 other locals played first. Some other promoters don’t ask for the money up front, but expect it at door opening. Heard some bands shelling out money for unsold tickets just to be able to play.

[@davidgunsberg2475]

Thank you for this video. I love your reactions but I also love your industry insights. I especially love the obvious care and love you have for emerging bands and helping them by sharing your thoughts and knowledge. Rock on Tank! 🤘from Australia!

[@clayfoster8234]

I did one pay to play (ticket advance type) in the 90’s that I still have no regrets over. 1st off our fan base was pretty decent so in the end it only cost us like 50$ out of pocket, but more importantly we got exactly what we wanted out of it; we got to play at the Rivera, aka “the Riv” in Chicago. In the end we looked at it like paying for an experience much like going to an amusement park or skydiving or whatever. For me it was super cool to have been on the same stage I saw megadeth and soundgarden and anthrax and testament and primus and at least a dozen on bands play on. I’d definitely never do it again but it was absolutely worth doing once, and for a realistically achievable goal.

[@Tim85-y2q]

That's a fair way of looking at it. That said, I think "advance sales" is a little different than an actual buy on. If a band has a fanbase and can hustle, it's at least possible to get to the break even point on advance sales and maybe even make a little money in some cases.

[@thevanburenagency6664]

watermania? my band did the same guys show. i dont mind p2p , prob the only way ill ever play the riv and be in that big of ad in the illinois entertainer

[@clayfoster8234]

@@thevanburenagency6664 hell yeah!

[@frankiehdrum1]

Congrats with everything brother. Hope all is well. The rave section made me laugh. Absolutely true.

[@TankTheTech]

Thank you my dude! Hope you’re doing well!

[@robertporter6683]

If you do a pay to play outside of your area use the name recognition of the big show to book an opening slot in a small club the day before (gas money) and a direct support slot for someone in that area a month later (give the fans in that genre a few paychecks before you expect them to buy another ticket)

[@lowelldenney7255]

When you said that you had no idea about who is getting this pay to play money, i appreciated the fact that you were honest about it..Starting to follow

[@billharbadin4345]

It's super interesting what the pandemic did in my town to the "pay to play" situation. Live entertainment attendance is still nowhere where it was pre-covid days. So this being said, promoters in my area are using the locals way more than ever. My band has opened 3 national tours this year alone, and are about to do a 4th. Each time, there was no ticket requirements. It's now "here's a stack of 50 tickets, please do what you can, we would like to see at least 15 sales from you guys, but you are not going to be held to the whole stack" it's just a way of hoping to get bodies back into shows. Let me tell ya..the stress level has gone from the roof to the floor. I'm not complaining. I'm sure every city is different tho.

[@stevel.6046]

Dang that's both awesome and sad. Good y'all don't have to sell tickets but also shitty the expectation has fallen that drastically where a local opening for a touring band is only likely to sell 15.

[@floydburney6060]

@@stevel.6046 .....The business did it to themselves. They've ripped off bands/fans for so long they thought it would never end & so there's no incentive to change anything. Now no one wants to do music cause they know what's waiting for them.

[@bootdownthedoor]

Haha great reverse psychology from the promoter.

[@parajerry]

Yeah, we had a venue contact us to perform, then asked us to pay to play and sell tickets. We laughed at them and hung up. Right next door is a large city park. We called the city and got permission to use the park stage the same night...for free. We put on a free show and had over 2000 people attend. The venue had about 30 people show up. We made bank with merch and album sales and gained a lot of new fans. Venue was pissed. We just laughed and told them they can hire us...but they have to pay our regular rate.

[@JavyonVISION]

Great perspective! Thanks!

[@JavyonVISION]

What band were you in that you gained this experience with?

[@markfitzurka9995]

I think I figured out how your channel got into my stream list. I am loving it so far and am giving you the thumbs up and comments to help however that works. This video is definitely like a Rick Beato feel. I have gone down that rabbit hole and the Al G Rhythm linked me to you. I am happy it worked out this time. How it gets from a Buck Owens song and 3 songs later it puts a Luke Brain one in my mix is way off the mark. Keep up the great content

[@notaveytare]

I worked a tour (with two pretty big bands in their respected scenes) where one of the bands, paid to play just for the WHOLE TOUR, even though this band had NO social media presence and not a lot of fans for a cross CANADA tour, with maybe 2-3 shows in B-market US cities. They even bought (not rent) themselves a newer model Ford Transit, hired a tour photographer and brought on this kid to do lights and merch for $0. I believe the guitarist had settlement money he wanted to blow it on so he got his band on this tour. I think their guarantee was like $150 when we were making 10x that and the headliner who knows how much else. I felt bad for them, they opened to maybe 25% of what the crowd eventually became, sold no merch but somehow kept their energy up, mostly because they were a very fresh band. One night, the promoter had bumped them to play first and had 2 local acts who drew much better, play after them instead of the other way around. That was an insane thing because I have never that since going to shows/touring. After the tour, they made a little "tour music video" using footage from that and they somehow made it look like they "made it". I don't think they've done anything since 2018 but, at least they had some fun? Either way, I think any other band would've done this so I give them a little bit of props for having the balls to do it.

[@daleonov]

Thank you for sharing this! In my city, there are a lot of those usual pay to play fests that hold 4-5 bands a night, with a fee equaling to 30-40 tickets or so. The funny part is when I realized that most of the time those venues don't have the capacity to hold even half of those "required" guests, so they are designed around bands losing their money.

[@willnewsome6222]

Our first run in with tour buy-ons was back in 2008. We were offered a 6 week tour (through a major booking agency) with Franz Ferdinand for $30k, with LOADS of stipulations. Essentially we would be playing to houses of 1,500-2,500, 5 shows weekly (minimally), 20 min set as doors opened, only getting billing if show pre-sold out in advance, AND we were told we needed to match merch prices (in addition to paying the average 20-30% merch fees to venues). Needless to say we passed. Most festivals we looked into were $1k+ per 30 min slot/per day on a side stage, seeing anywhere from $5k-$10k for an average monthly buy-on in the rock scene for signed bands that are pulling in 1,000+ heads. Not naming anyone, but some cats from my area are currently charging $30k for a buy on with them. There’s a local venue (amazing joint) that we do the pay-to-play deal. It’s set up where you can actually make money if you do the legwork, nothing is charged up front and without a high pressure tix sales amount from the owner. At the end of the day if you’re a band that wants to be considered professional, promotional costs are a reality. Whether you take out radio spots, billboard ads, do merch giveaways, or hit the streets to get the word out about your music. One way or another, until you pack the folks in and are in demand, you’re taking a loss and busting your ass in the process. When you break even, that’s when you’ve made it! 🤣 Great channel/content! Newly subbed. Cheers!

[@TankTheTech]

That's insane man, and thank you for sharing your experience on here!

[@willnewsome6222]

@@TankTheTech Thank YOU!!! I’m a fan of your content (your personality sells it bro, genuine). I’m still grinding away in both original and cover bands, now with the day gig again since C19. It kills me how many folks don’t get that just by being yourself, genuine, and kind to others will get you further than not. I started to think the world was full of absolute cunts🤣 Appreciate you bro!! All the best throughout all endeavors! Cheers!

[@willnewsome6222]

@@TankTheTech Is there a way to message you directly?

[@bangkokfed]

I have seen both Metallica and Guns n' Roses as opening acts. '86 and '88 I wonder if they were "buy ons" or added to pad ticket sales. Great content. You have a new subscriber.

[@MountainNatives]

It's a really interesting topic. Thanks for putting this video together!

[@oldskoolmark5414]

Motley Crue on the reunion tour in 99(?) had a Battle of the Bands competition in each city to determine what local band would open the show. There was talk of a compilation album of these bands but that unfortunately never materialized.

[@Rjensen2]

Fuck Mötley Crüe. The actual story is the band that won the honor of paying those losers to be on tour wound up suing them. Mötley didn't even let them play in front of people.

[@oldskoolmark5414]

@@Rjensen2 I don't know what you're talking about I was in the band that won that competition in my city and we played in front of a couple thousand people and we didn't have to pay anybody

[@Rjensen2]

@@oldskoolmark5414 I'm not talking about you, or some stupid "Battle of the Bands" from 1999.

[@oldskoolmark5414]

@@Rjensen2 well than stfu asshole I don't give a fuck what you're talking about then.

[@Rjensen2]

@@oldskoolmark5414 It also wasn't anywhere near 1999. And they opened for themselves. 🤣

[@ozzzy3z946]

Back in the 1970s, my dad knew a man who wanted to sell his orange soda at old Comiskey Park (Chicago White Sox). When he met with the White Sox to discuss pricing, he was surprised to learn that the White Sox were negotiating the price they would charge him per cup sold. The White Sox offer was to keep 100% of the sales profit + his "promotional fee" per cup.

[@joeshoe6184]

Ah good old Comisky Park...

[@ricfax]

Welcome, my son Welcome, to the machine ~ PF

[@PhillipDrumz]

Man I like the honesty. Hard facts for small bands, all about the money in the industry.

[@rosswhite5975]

Over here in the UK I haven't experienced that 'pay to play' thing at venues for a long time (was quite common in early 2000's though). However the 'tour buy-on' side of things seems to have exploded over the past 10 years or so. The days of the 'local opener' are kind of dying because every tour already has 4 bands on (with 2 or 3 of them having bought on to the tour). My own bands have been offered tour 'buy-ons' a number of times but we have always turned them down. We have been fortunate enough to do some cool shows and tours through the years without having to 'buy-on' and basically we are grown ups with kids, mortgages, bills to pay etc so we can't be throwing money away on tours like that. If people have disposable income like that and want to get on tours then that's up to them I guess. I have yet to see evidence of a band who bought onto a number of tours getting big though, so I would warn people to be very cautious about such things. You would probably do more for your band by spending that money on making an amazing sounding album with some cool music videos and a little pr campaign rather than blowing it all buying onto a tour.

[@zachosborne6577]

Watched a couple of tour videos. You’ve earned my subscription sir

[@TankTheTech]

Thanks, man!

[@loboahriman7680]

I've played several of those "festival" buy ons with different bands over the years. Each time I tried to tell my band mates that it was NOT worth it, and each time they insisted that we give it a shot because "you never know who will be there" or whatever (some of these festivals we even had to travel quite a bit for) Guess who was always right? I didn't argue with them tho, let them learn the hard way haha. And I didn't want to look like a poor sport. But yeah, even those battle of the bands are giant scams. I've always found the most success networking and promoting on my own, which doesn't cost a dime.

[@Pushrod_Criff]

The only real winner in the battle of the bands is the promoters…. It goes against everything the scene is supposed to be. Yes my band won a few battles did it help our careers?? Not really. Was it worth it?? Financially…..nope…. But from a networking standpoint slightly, and only because the guys didn’t have egos…sadly most guys did because it was a “battle” never again!!

[@StallionStudios1234]

Lol yeah my friends band did one of those competitions. They got through to the third round. Then some band that came out of nowhere from a different city that wasn't originally in the competition. Since they were out of town they were automatically a "finalist" and despite practically no crowd they somehow won. We are like WTF??? Total scam.

[@floydburney6060]

@@StallionStudios1234 ....Either all the bands were inferior or the promoter was running a scam for the band & their people that "came outta nowhere". there are no coincidences when that kinda stuff happens.

[@bobbystereo936]

Remember in the movie Yesterday? They tell him he's booked at a huge festival! When he gets there, he's separate from the big stage shoved in a tent probably charging $10 admission.

[@loboahriman7680]

@@bobbystereo936 similar thing happened to me when I was younger. I knew it would be that way, but my bandmates didn't listen. Still, a fun trip to SoCal.

[@darrylmoore127]

Good info , been in bands since 15 yrs old , played local festivals did make some money , it wasn't about trying to make it big, only having fun with friends and that was it . Now I can see why bands like The Rockets disappeared and Jim McCarty started Mystery Train as a blues bar band in Detroit area which which is where I am . Now 58 and now disabled because of M.S. which happened at 33.

[@edochtabienski8434]

Great vids Tank! Thanks for the inside scoop. I must be the oldest geezer on here because I’m pretty sure pay to play started at the Sunset Strip venues early to mid 80’s. It was hotly debated then and I’m appalled that it has continued and expanded to the present. In regards to your excellent tour merch venue fee vid, that’s been going on since at least the 1970’s. In regards to label contracts (more accurately loansharks with lawyers), they are drawn up to insure that they receives ALL of their investment back before the band sees a penny. Advances and tour support and video costs (in the olden days), everything was on the band’s tab. They could tour the world and go platinum and still owe the record company money (Van Halen 1978). I’m not trying to be a buzz kill but unfortunately those are the facts. If you love music… write it, record it and perform it for the love of it. And if you’re approached with a contract… hire the absolute best lawyer you can find and really consider if it’s right for you. It’s better to be a big fish in a small pond than a guppy in the ocean IMO I wish everyone the best and take care of yourselves.🤘🤘

[@fredvahldiek738]

I was in a band that played the Sunset Strip many times back in those days. Gazzarri's was the one I remember that sold your tickets to you for resale.

[@firebirdlover4460]

I remember that. The venues in the strip would charge you, because you were getting exposure to possible industry execs.

[@darrylmoore127]

How old are you Ed Ochtabienski, great comment I m 58 , did make some money at local festivals when I was 18 , 19 But never pursued it to make it big , Now it is strictly for my pleasure , had a lot of comments that I should have been a studio bass player, I play every genre from 60s to 80s .

[@edochtabienski8434]

@@darrylmoore127 Hi Darryl I’m 58 as well! Once I read Frank Zappa’s book regarding all the troubles he had with record companies when I was about 19 years old, plus research into what a crappy deal label contracts were, I decided to just play for my own therapy. Basically I got married and figured I could play music and be poor or work and buy a house, travel the world and retire at 55.😂 Music has always been my passion unfortunately the music “business” didn’t seem like a great deal. But that’s just me. I still play, write and record my own stuff and that’s all I ever wanted to do… communicate through music. Take care!🤟👍✌️

[@travisguide4516]

Such a eye opener and the wheel goes round

[@OSJdrums]

Thanks for posting this. The general concert goers have no clue about this. Ive been in local bands that did the tickets gimmick. A few of them where worth it. Recently auditioned for a national touring band. When i asked the pay or per diem, they got quiet for a second. Then i asked ifvthey buy on to all the tours.....didn't get that gig. Lol

[@rodzillarox4882]

I played in bands over the years but did not get to this level.. very cool. I sent your link to some friends of mine that have played the side stages for big tours.. Thanks for the info

[@becmkh]

I'd like to see your input on venues/ events/ festivals being reliant on volunteers, especially for set up and take down. Feel like using volunteers instead of paying staff is far too normalised in the events industry. Was really put off seeing Copenhell festival "hiring" volunteers to help build the site and staging, with the sign up sheets saying the volunteers cant opt out of their shifts after a certain date and if they dont work all their shifts they'll be fined ticket price, with volunteers expected to work between 18, 24 or 36 hours, doing 12 hour shifts usually. A lot of the language used for their volunteering sign up looked like terms and conditions that would be in a paid role and really think crew building stages and sites should be paid.

[@SayKyleNotCow]

“Our merch money basically fed us and got us to the next venue…” truer words have never been spoken for a local band 😂

[@BrandonSills]

in my 25 years of doing music, i can definitely say P2P was never that great for me early on until i joined bands that had pull and power as they've been more experienced in that realm. one of the highlights of getting offered a gig in one of the largest venues in town (1,600 capacity) and we had to sell all 100 tickets to be guaranteed on the bill. we achieved that, and got to share the stage with bands like Coal Chamber, Filter, American Head Charge. it was an awesome night. we were not made aware of another band that was added to the tour bill until last minute, reducing our planned set list to 25 minutes. I still call 25 minutes in that venue a win. we would not have made that show without an impressive capture/edit of a live gig just 2 months prior, and that also landed us an opportunity in that same venue a few months later. I had an easier time selling tickets to play the show due to who we were at the time. however, when i tried starting up my own thing, P2P was harsh enough that I was trying to network around and didn't know the first thing about it. the company that offered the show did not disclose it as P2P until i got a package in the mail from them which gave me less than 2 weeks to sell. i hate selling myself because there's probably not a lot about me or my work to sell, or i just have a different idea of how things should be (more fair for everyone so there's chances of not crushing peoples dreams maybe). i ended up getting threats because i couldn't sell even 5 tickets, and that i would owe money. i told them to go F themselves at that point and they wouldn't see a dime from me and returned any "earnings from sales" to those who paid for a ticket. the "company" didn't pursue anything further (thankfully) even after i called out their predatory practices and horrible business demeanor. if you're gonna start doing music in live venues, do not start out with P2P unless you know your band or music project has enough connections to sell all those tickets in under a week. take gigs where you get a percentage of the door or bar to start out. sure, you might not make anything, but the goal is to get people's attention this way so when you do start taking on larger shows or opportunities, you should be able to cover it if you got eyes on you from those smaller gigs. as far as tour buy-on, i bounced from a band that did that because i couldn't afford to chip in at the time and had significant health issues, so i wasn't able to witness that whole deal at least once for the purpose of knowledge. that dream of touring was crushed in that moment. end rant/story: things do need to change a little bit, i don't know what exactly, but some things do need a little tweak.

[@peecmkr45]

What needs to change is that musicians get paid a fair amount of money for their performance. That will solve a lot of these issues. Don't allow yourself to be taken advantage of!!

[@BrandonSills]

@@peecmkr45 this, all the way. the playing field is so distorted, nobody sees their true worth or refuses to respect themselves in the face of opportunity. if i had a heart, it'd be broken knowing so many struggling musicians just don't stand up for themselves enough..

[@nosambawhcs3664]

Im from Milwaukee. So glad you called The Rave out specifically. I pulled band management for a few small local bands in my younger days, and we fell for that a few times. At The Rave, you're often not even playing the same stage as the headliner with these pay to play gigs. You're playing another smaller stage in the same building, and youre playing at like...6pm.

[@joeshoe6184]

That's unfortunate, because it is a cool and historic venue.

[@jg8398]

Just started watching your videos man; great stuff. I lived in Milwaukee & played in bands for probably close to 20 years & all through this video I'm just nodding & thinking to myself "I don't know where this dude lives or did his time playing live but I bet he has no idea how well he's describing the Moth#%%$&#*%$ing RAVE". Then maybe 15 seconds later you called out the Rave, specifically. No one will ever convince me that it's not at least in the top 5 of the most evil & band-unfriendly places on Earth. Point of clarification: I don't mean evil in the cool, metal way. I mean in the actual "these are bad people and I bet they steal little kids' bikes & scalp Playstations on the side" way.

[@TankTheTech]

Hahahahahaha. Perfect building for it too, considering the history.

[@joeshoe6184]

That sucks cuz the venue itself is very cool and historic.

[@psmith2403]

This also highlights the barrier to entry that musicians coming from households where their parents can't loan them several thousand dollars end up facing just to pursue their dreams. It's really hard not to be completely nihilistic about it. lol

[@TankTheTech]

Agree. Fortunately in that situation, one of our parents was able to help us out, but not everyone is in the same situation. And full honesty, we were never even able to pay him back, which still bugs me to this day.

[@jonbongjovi1869]

YUP. Almost every successful rock band was......RICH KIDS....from Blondie to Talking Heads to Kiss to RUSH (who paid for their own debut record in 1974!!!).....cuz they have too many advantages. Today is the worst. ALL these talentless rich kids doing music to be famous, and daddy bribes radio and YT.

[@Tim85-y2q]

@@jonbongjovi1869 That seems to require a fairly loose definition of "rich". "Not dirt poor" is probably more accurate, but that's true for most things in life.

[@pahwraith]

And now imagine how hard it is to make a movie. Almost all directors are rich kids.

[@greyguy69]

Good explanation. Ì am 70 and been in bands for years. Never knew this was the way it is.

[@agdtec]

I am 58 years old Back (before everybody went to DJ'S) in the day with the big bars they usually had 75-80 percent occupancy regardless of wether or not a band was playing. If you were just starting out you paid or were paid very little, but you could get a percentage of the door. Your fans had to say they were there to see you and you had somebody at the door making sure the bars ticket agent clicked the clicker for each fan you brought in. the more popular you were the more you made. The bar gave you a shot. but they had money coming in regardless of bands playing or not.

[@TheWeebz]

My buddy Frank Watkins (RIP) played in 2 big metal bands. Obituary and Gorgoroth. The stories I’ve heard about paying to play has been going on for years! Your spot on! I will drop a name. Ozzfest …a lot of bands paid to play on that tour.

[@michaelmindiola5810]

In addition to playing in a band for over a decade, I'm a big boxing fan and have been involved with some professional fighters. A lot of people would be shocked to know that pay to play happens in the professional boxing industry as well. Young up and coming fighters are required to sell large amounts of tickets. They pretty much were paying their own fight purse which is usually minimal. It's hard enough to train and stay focused. Having to worry about selling tickets is detrimental to their preparation. This happens because promoters are real promoters anymore. They don't know anything about building a fan base or promoting an event. It's really sad

[@SeventhSalute]

Very similar to what you're talking about, my most experience over the years is when a promoter says you need to sell X amount of tickets or make sure X amount of people show up. Which in a way is pay to play, and if you don't have those people show up or buy tickets, then you don't get paid. I've had this happen when playing shows with touring bands and just local bands.

[@TheLocalFuzz]

There are quite a few good stories in the comments. About a decade ago, I was in a band that was already on the rocks - it turned out our suspicions were true that the singer was taking most of our money to pay his rent. Anyway, we were offered a buy-in for a Black Dahlia Murder tour in India. Even as a youngster, it seemed like the dumbest idea ever, but the singer and his brother were gung-ho about it. I'm so glad it never turned out and I'd jumped ship quickly - especially since we had more in common with Rob Zombie than BDM.

[@floydburney6060]

....In addition to all the other blood suckers outside the band....You had one more inside the band. This is why music is like crime - It doesn't pay.

[@rikfox8812]

I share a lot of your sage experience wisdom with a lot of people in Facebook and they're digging it. Hopefully it brings you more subscribers 😉👍🏻✌️

[@joeferris5086]

I played bass for this local thrash band once, and it was a situation in which I wanted to just join a band and be a somewhat passive member for a change. So I join this band, and we rehearse a bunch. And a show is coming up. And at the rehearsal before the show the singer and band leader starts giving everybody tickets. Then he tells me he has 10 tickets for me, which I have to BUY, and RESELL them to my friends. The thing is, my friends don't listen to metal. I would really have to be ok with being obnoxious and begging all my friends to buy tickets to come see me play music they don't like. Oh and also the drummer needed new heads so he needed money from me for that and also gas. I politely declined to continue playing with them. But it did get me thinking about band dynamics and what expenses should one expect to pay a part of. Obviously I couldn't just play with them and not contribute money when they were, but idk, it seemed off to me. P.S. This was an awesome video. I wanna say though, when that tour came back to you for an extra $5k, I'm afraid they may have bluffed you dude. These situations are awful man. Very interesting content.

[@erikstorm8935]

lmao they really wanted you to *sell* your tickets to your friends? Not give them away like friends do for each other? I mean, I get that not everyone comps their friends free tix. But no one says "I have a ticket for you but you gotta pay for it" lol.

[@masonjones1506]

The new business model is like Amway.

[@alfhelgesson7184]

This was realy interesting to hear about! 🤘👍

[@usedguitarstring]

In another life, I was a TM for a band who was “invited” to open for a well know international metal band. Around 4 weeks before we were scheduled to start the tour we were told that it would be 4k to tour with this band. The paperwork came from this bands management. Needless to say, we turned down the “offer”.

[@excxmoody]

use to book tours and wanted to hold local shows but didn't want to do the pay to play idea, watching this video though just makes me wonder the possibilities back then

[@theCurbSide]

Wow, did that offer come with a slap in the face cause i bet that's pretty much what it felt like when u read it. I think u guys made the right decision, bro

[@usedguitarstring]

@@theCurbSide it was such a blow to the band and crew. Bands that have no investment or tour support behind them barely get by as it is…….

[@cbr9914]

i remember being offered opening slot on a western canada tour. we had to haul the headliner's equipment trailer, pay for all the fuel and got paid zero per show. not even access to a dressing room. we didn't take the tour.

[@kattmazi1934]

I’m curious, how did they justify the $4k figure?

[@cozzconM]

Well, I was active from 83 to 93. During that period there was some pay to play but it was limited mostly to the west coast. In Chicago there were places you could pay to play- mid level venues and theaters. But most of my bar gigs were setup so we got most or all of the door and a percentage of the bar sales. Even larger named venues like the China Club, where they needed entertainment every night of the week, were actually paying for acts- which included acoustic acts for the VIP room. But if you wanted to get into the theaters, or play in LA, then you either rented the theater and self promoted or paid some goon on the strip for a slot. The bands back then who paid to play were aiming to get signed and there was a vast difference between the two methodologies. On one hand there were bands that were buying their stages and self promoting. And there were others who were happy making a living playing anywhere they got paid and self promoting. In my day buying stages was delusional because you could get a gig with a built in audience that paid money- rather than self promoting for one large show that broke even. Now I'm going to name names... Liz Phair got signed and to my knowledge never paid for a stage. She got signed right out of the open mic, and later bar stage, scene. D''Mouls on the other hand took off for LA and played that game to get signed to Atlantic. Paradoxx stayed in Chicago fighting to get signed- and if I remember correctly they self promoted larger stages. Nicholas Tremulous got signed to Island and I think he was buying larger stages. I could go on. However these days there's the 360 deal. And quite frankly that form of deal is so evil that if I were playing for my dinner I'd never sign.

[@TankTheTech]

And we can all blame Korn for making that deal so popular. 😂

[@cozzconM]

@@TankTheTech I just threw up a little.

[@Andrew-Richardson]

When I played on the east coast we avoided pay to play shows and just played house parties, old theaters and local bars until we were known enough to play bigger venues and we dyi until we saved enough and it made sense to pay others to do our stuff. A&R and those pay to play agencies would contact us because of our numbers and they would pull that crap we just weren’t interested in selling tickets and convincing people to come we thought if people loved what we were doing they’d show up regardless and it was the right choice

[@LostLegacyNY_]

Everything you said, is absolutely correct. Good video.

[@twisted2291]

Never got into the Pay to Play thing. My Band and I would always rent venues. Sell our own tickets, Other bands that wanted in would have to sell X amount of tickets to play. So for them it was kind pay to play, but not really. So I was not only the headliner band member, but I was being a show promoter as well. I rented the venue. The venue made their money of the rental fee and concession they sold there. Each band had to sell tickets. They would get paid x amount of dollars for the spot in the show. If they didn't sell all the tickets. That money came out of what they would get paid. For me. 99% of the time. All the band sold all of their tickets, and we had great shows.

[@ryanmorrison2489]

Your right on brotha!! Have dealt with this ova past couple yrs! Feels like your making progress, but then realize later your in same position! Thanks for sharing!! \m/ \m/

[@Synguen01]

I had an offer for a band i manage to "support" a pretty well known and legendary US band from back in the day during their tour in Germany. The heyday of the band is long behind them and they play midsized clubs here (300-500 tops). They would bring only their guitars and we were supposed to pay for backline, nightliner, techs and everything else that might come up. It would have been cool to do this. The shows would have been packed, and we would have killed and gained a lot of new fans and probably sold tons of merch but i dont't think we could have broken even. So we said thank you and declined. Instead we choose a lesser known band from who came to germany. We played the same clubs, and didn't have to pay anything and from 5 out of 6 clubs we got a small token of appreciation (between 100 and 200 € per show).

[@MVProfits]

You put it right. It's a way for bands to make them known, say they played with so and so, shoot video footage and so on. They REALLY have to leverage it all as much as possible as they'll likely lose money, so milk it all for future benefits. What I dislike about opening up when there's 3 other bands already, or playing side stage in the day in most festivals... it means playing in front of very few people, even if there's tons around. It SUCKS. I preferred the first option, but as you pointed out, the side benefit of touring is the connections you make. As for labels, they don't mind overpaying as they likely get kickbacks, and the bands will pay somehow, someway, unless they crash. Thus the labels drive the prices up for everybody, signed or not. That's the big issue IMO. I recall paying to be on a compilation album and doing a short show for it (all 15 bands were playing). The compilation was never produced, but we shot great footage at the show. decent crowd. So it was worth it as it didn't cost much.

[@MorbidManiac93]

I've done a few Pay To Play once and it was awful My old band got an offer to open for Vader & Vital Remains 2 months before the show. It was 1 state away(in the North East so not as far as you'd think) and we were told we needed to sell tickets. Weeks kept passing and we kept asking when we would receive the tickets to sell. Soon, soon he kept saying. Finally the tickets came SIX DAYS before the show. Because they came in during the work we were limited in what we could do. Drive to the show, explain we couldn't sell everything given to us due to timing and he chewed us out for it. Apparantly he did the same thing to another local opener the same night but asked them to sell MORE tickets. Promoter ended up telling the touring band that our band was responsible for paying them and it lead to an altercation with the promoter. Long story short, promoter ended up stealing money from the bartenders to pay the touring package and we never worked with him again. 1 year later, I learned the venue fired the promoter for frequent similar incidents. Venue actually starting making more money once they got a promoter in who didn't make bands Pay To Play. I've opened for other touring acts since, never paid to play, gained new audience and sold more merch. A good promoter doesn't need to take money from locals.

[@RonVanderDussen]

That would’ve been the 2013 tour. I love Vader, they do a USA tour every 3 years like clockwork, play in small nasty clubs - I wonder what their tour deal is?

[@buckyhate7695]

It's right up there, with being paid in exposure. Promoters are like the government. They always get theirs, first- especially in local bars.

[@extraordinary_ordinary]

I guess I'm lucky; not one band I played in ever had to do pay-for-play. Any time we got offered something like that we took a hard pass. We still managed to open for a lot of national acts and even manage to open shows for national acts in cities that were quite a ways away from our home base (and received a guarantee for them).

[@rjens]

It was around when worked as a guitar tech back in the late 80's through the mid 90's. I've even heard some bands were also taking merch and publishing points from o/a's.

[@Santoroz]

This was normal in local clubs for over 30 years in upstate NY (for metal) to the degree I decided to make my own music venue. I almost got into a fist fight with one of the other owners saying "You can't go against how we've been doing things for years" referring to making openers BUY TICKETS to play. I actually try to pay openers! Go figure! I told him, IDGAF how long this has been going on, it's wrong and I won't do it.