A Specific Example Of How Bad Balance Can Ruin An ARPG Like Last Epoch, Path of Exile Or Diablo 4

A Specific Example Of How Bad Balance Can Ruin An ARPG Like Last Epoch, Path of Exile Or Diablo 4
This is just one specific example of how badly designed mechanics can ruin an ARPG and remove possible choices for the player who are determined to have a decent efficiency, not min maxing but obviously not making bad choices.
Build In Video :
• Shadow Hunter Multisho...
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#lastepoch

[@Dr3adful]

*Its acktually 17 arrows per click Dr3ad, actually f tier math*

[@blackomega34]

Just like Giant Slayer, I feel like there are way too many skills in the game with all their viability locked behind a single part of their skill tree. Other examples include sequential fireballs, upheaval totems, glyph of dominion ignite, firebrand buffing your other attacks, blade shield shurikens, umbral blades spinning node, and it doesn't feel like us optimizing the fun out of the game but rather the other options all have crazy flaws.

[@HurrikanEagle]

I feel that Giant Slayer should be the default, and the current Default should replace Giant Slayer in the tree.

[@shrandis]

arrived here before the "balance doesn't matter" comments

[@kunchen3278]

this is my biggest concern. i played the dagger detonating arrow(2nd character) in 1.0, ditched my 1st character after seeing how op dagger detonation arrow was. now i dont want to play it again in 1.1, but im afraid no other skill will come close in satisfaction

[@DicemanCobrak]

I did this exact thing too. Started on a Bear storming around, got a couple of the DA daggers and figured why the heck not. The literal first run I did after the build turned on I just sat there looking at my screen wondering why I even bothered trying to play the bear in the first place.

[@conversefall5928]

I really felt this with Void Knight. I tried a ton of different skills, but eventually my options came down to Warpath or Healing Hands with Rive.

[@Dartlin]

I love how the sentinel hat resembles Raiden from mortal Kombat lol... This video reminds me of when I tried to theorycraft my own random build when I first played a falconer and everybody was like "this build sucks, ur supposed to be using this this and this"

[@rdkone33]

Thanks for shining a spotlight on this issue. I couldn't agree more. I get 90% of my enjoyment in ARPGs from build crafting. That's what keeps me grinding and drives replayability. LE does it WAY better than other games for sure. It's just that when you see the "meta" builds overperforming, every other build feels like it's underperforming in comparison.

[@no_opas]

so isn't it the way game are being done for their whole time being? perfect balance is boring, you are set to achieve everything if the balance is perfect. games were always about getting highscore in less time than your opponent. in Tetris you are always being decision checked: the better place you put a piece, the easier it will be to make multiple lines disappear. in quake same thing: the better your weapon choice at set time and place is being used, the better damage you will deal. in arpg getting right gear for the right build make you way stronger than putting some random piece of magic cloth on a barbarian with 2 handed bonk stick. therefore we see that any decision being made will affect your gameplay and some decisions are obvious and easy and some are not, like if you want to make a non meta skill build and clear some kind of endgame, you will understand that it would be way way harder than it could be with other meta builds, is it bad? no! you know why? because meta is cyclical and you are supposed to play a good build to achieve your goal faster. it's like trying to hammer a nail not with hammer, but with wrench, you will do what you need, but you will look stupid if you would say that "dude it is stupid how difficult it is to hammer a nail with a wrench than a hammer". and if you did then people will look at you and laugh, then say "you made a stupid decision and was punished for it". another thing is power creep and difficulty curve of the campaign that will make a pass for a new player for some time and then face with a harsh reality of not taking right passive and gear with right stats, which is again - decisions.

[@minhocho5487]

Feels like necropolice league is a clear example of bad balancing.

[@RetnabBanter]

That's much the same with Forgemaster IMO. Their big unique skill seems so cool in theory, until you realize that if you want to build pets there is a single build on its tree and the actual skill itself is going to do basically nothing other than get your minions out

[@MrAllbrother]

i agree with everything, however a small touch, blast rain is 2skills, multishot only one. if was a way for multishot to proc ex: puncture, maybe would had the same dmg output after. at least in feel should be the same, even if it did less damage.

[@leodesilva7638]

in the case of last epoch, devs are trying too hard to make the game unique. like a marksman carrying a dagger but only throw traps as best build for the class. then you a paladin carrying a spoon for its best build. for me that's make last epoch so boring to play. i mean you have a bulky paladin on a heavy armor carrying a spoon. i have push my frosbite multishot to 300 corruptions. while knowing most marksman are at 2000 corruption using daggers for display. played tons of hours in poe, and i dont know what the devs in LE are thinking!!! plus the faction system is a joke it only divides players. you guys should try the multishot frosbite build it is really cool. freeze all mobs. i just got tired playing it bec dagger marksman is op.

[@Astrex_lunique]

This season, I felt like they broke rogue with the insane falconer and overpowered explosive trap that can do anything better than other skills (even cap dusk shroud WTF ! ). I actively avoided new masteries because of this unbalanced builds. But I went for marksman at start and when i understood why my overstuffed cinderstrike+decoy was so inferior to any variation of explosive trap, i swapped to explosive trap, played few hours, and then just reroll to druid because it was so boring (and had a lot of fun with a bee druid and it was definitly more enjoyable, moslty cause i could buy insane stuff for free on the market as my build was not meta). It felt they failed the balance of every new skills expect the shaman's one at 1.0. Hopefully EHG will manage to balance at 1.1

[@ntma]

me trying two different bv builds with great damage on gear/tree vs. my yoloed spork raider

[@anthonylowe8819]

I been saying this for the longest I feel like ever since the new class dropped and everyone’s running birds and traps. Marksman has completely lost its identity.

[@travisweber5364]

Good video Dr3ad

[@5I13lV7DI1293]

The ol' 'yadda yadda yadda'

[@simpforsigmar8332]

I tried multshot for a while even when I'm getting good dmg with it theirs just something about it i don't like i cant quite put my finger on it, In the end i just went for carpet bombing the whole screen with detonating rain so much more fun.

[@Dr3adful]

so from how I felt, Multishot has good enough damage, but can't apply it properly in an AoE like a marksman should. In theory Marksmans flavorfully should have meh single target but good clear, while multishot is the opposite where you have good single target and meh clear. And if you don't pick Giant Slayer...it feels significantly worse than it should.

[@HurrikanEagle]

I think part of the issue with Multishot, is that A. I personally think it feels "better" with Flurry. But Flurry can't proc the 5% multishot thing, because I'm fairly certain that's on "cast" of flurry at this point, not on tick of the channel. B. Because there are SO MANY more multipliers in the tree, you need all the base damage you can find to start to catch up. But that's also not necessarily readily apparent to a new player. Things like Blast Rain, or really any trap + detonating arrow build, don't have that searchign for any flat damage possible under a rock need. I don't think Detonating Arrow was necessarily tuned with the expectation that you'd be firing 5-10 arrows per right click, thanks to explosive trap. I also want detonating arrow to be good, without waiting on explosions and just using it as right click. But most of all, I'd just love a pass at the marksman tree. And for the Marksman Talents to proc every tick of flurry. In monos, I'm using moving often enough to have to feather things anywya. But not necessarily while bossing.

[@CoffeeTheFreshmaker]

my main problem with a game like last epoch is when too many abilities feel mandatory and especially when they're just boring buff abilities like dread shroud or whatnot. Another example is shurikens and dash, don't think I've seen a build with shurikens that actually used them for damage and not the defensive aspect. Just feels limiting when every specialization/class have like 1-3 abilities that you have to use in order to get far, except from a few tryhard builds that specifically go out of their way to avoid them. Especially if they're not that fun to use. I don't really care if something is OP. But it's a problem if the game is balanced around that and you therefore gotta bring the "OP" in order to "clear the game" so to speak.

[@TheMrRooks]

I hate playing OP, obviously busted builds. I do not find it fun at all to trivialize the content. In LE specifically, this season has had some of the worst balance I have seen in a recvent ARPG. Abusing ward, Falconer and Warlock being way over tuned, Healing Hands making me immortal, not to mention the plethora of bugs. I do enjoy LE, I just hate how the game is an unbalanced mess at the moment with some builds being able to push 4000 corruption while others top out at around 300.

[@PharCryy]

You speak nothing but fundamental facts here.

[@max417481]

I am glad i am old so my only concern is they dont nerf necros 😅 anyway jokes aside coming from poe to le and this is a common topic until GGG nerfed to the ground tornado shot nobody was playing elemental hit...so balance is always towards nerfs so the game could "last" longer i guess

[@lucinev]

Words cannot explain how quickly I've lost faith in EHG's ability to balance their game in the past year. Exponential amounts of power creep over and over, with basic handwave-y "we'll get to it" responses. Not even touching how much they drummed up 1.0 and it released with barely any help/addressing of the glaring issues that have been around for FOUR YEARS. I want them to succeed, I really do, but I am not hopeful with their track record.

[@Assassinss77]

Most classes end up being do this 1 skill because the others are poorly balanced or the nodes make no sense. The other part is like dark quiver why do I have to pick up the arrows that I just shot into the air? Makes the whole thing clunky. Forgeguard not sure if it was changed but was litreally unplayable because the tree itself made no sense.

[@HurrikanEagle]

Legit, I started the game at release w a marksman. And I was coming in without played. Blast Rain was one of the first I played, after wanting to make a multishot build. And it was just, orders of magnitude better for bossing and monos. And that's not even getting into Jelkhors, which feels orders of magnitude better than that. I had similar issues with sentinel, where smite+healing hands, or melee+healing hands, just became the default. Because what they provide you is just SO much better than the other options. It was only recently I decided to say "screw it" and play what I found fun. (RIP, I still want Dragonsong+Cinderstrike to feel viable). Marksman needs love. I think instead of Giant Slayer, while all the nodes to get to it are great, imagine if Giant Slayer was the default, and you specced a node instead that said "you do 80% increased damage, but arrows can only effect one target). Functionally, that's similar, but it means you get to actually play multishot in a more useable state before then. I also think, that for the investiment in Point Blank, it should be +25% to closer targets, and -10% to farther away ones. I have tried your multishot build, and it ws definitely good. Especially for a cycle starter. I'm more used to Flurry/Multishot in a faster pace, which I'll probably go back to. But I think we hold the same opinion on balance in regards to the video. I also think MM Passives and Skills, need to be looked at with the same microscope they're looking at Forge Guard and Sorcerer atm. Seeing the teasers for those 2 and nothing for Marksman is making my little rogue soul hurt. And I'm trying to decide now which flavor of rogue I'm starting Cycle 2 with.