A Word With Waves

Just a little suggestion for a way Waves might ease customers' fears about their new subscription only model.
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[@vadimmartynyuk]

I think 90% of the people in the industry decided to ditch waves

[@karo2090]

I hope so. If we don't stand up now other companies will do the same thing

[@jahhe2611]

indeed, i don't see a way subscriptions will work in the music industry. Like someone said about UAD and buying plugins there is no way to actually earn back the money put into buying a music plugin that makes sense.

[@mudi2000a]

@@jahhe2611 yes an indicator for this is that even some which were originally subscription only later offered also purchase. E.g. Universal Audio or Roland Cloud.

[@ChaosPootato]

I can very much see a world where people throw their hands up and say "but we don't have a choice :((((((" (where they obviously have) and just decide to get shafted by subscription models willingly. It's already happening with a lot of other types of software

[@alessiorossi]

I already switched all channels in the project I’m working on to non-Waves plug-ins… WTF are they thinking at Waves! 🤯

[@lauriliinat7262]

Next thing you know, your powerdrill will refuse to spin because you forgot to pay this month's subscription fee or your wi-fi is down temporarily so it can't check from the cloud if you did :) Or perhaps the manufacturer has kicked the bucket in the mean time and there is no cloud service alive anymore to check against so the tool is bricked forever :P

[@nocturnallmusic]

My printer stopped working the other day because I stopped the subscription model. Ridiculous

[@Crazyfistish]

This is especially true for Waves hardware like the LV1 mixing desk or SoundGrid racks and expansion cards. Tens of thousands of dollars could be invested into these things, all of which are useless if you don't pay the subscription or go offline.

[@lauriliinat7262]

@@Crazyfistish Exactly, as someone already pointed out in another comment, at a certain point it becomes more economical to buy hardware that doesn't try to milk its owner, perhaps even analog hardware in certain cases.

[@kehindea]

@@lauriliinat7262er no it’s not. A rack full of top analog effects will cost you $100,000 minimum whereas the most expensive subscription plan $249 a year will cost $17430 over 70 years and most people will be in the grave long before that

[@alessandro.favero]

Just wanted to peacefully and light-heartedly point out the irony by which maybe said Wi-Fi is down cause you forgot to pay the subscription to your internet provider. Which nobody really complains about.

[@arkarmoethouk2445]

I have just 10 plugins from Waves. I use them all the time though. The thing is 3 of them now are available only in Ultimate edition. I don't want anything else. So, is it fair that I'll have to pay 250$ a year to continue using my 10 plugins? They keep saying '220 plugins' but most of them are simply dogsh*t. They really f*cked up this time.

[@LabofmusicRecords]

The problem is, I have been buying Waves plugins since 2008. If I now have to pay for my already purchased plugins, about 95% of everything Waves has to offer, an additional 250.- dollars every year to make them work, then that's a pretty big sum over the years and I start buying hardware again.

[@alkazaryyy]

Purchased plugins will work as usual, just no more upgrades but whatever. A google search told me so.

[@chuckbiscuito]

Their FAQ says you will “continue to own them”, but doesn’t explicitly state you can continue to use them. I assume as much, though.

[@LabofmusicRecords]

​@@chuckbiscuito the T&Cs it says "All updates are provided to you on a license exchange basis such that you agree, as a precondition for recieving an update, that you will terminate all your rights to use any previous version of the software." if you sign up for the subscription, and you update your plugins, no longer have license to older versions.

[@LabofmusicRecords]

@@alkazaryyy the T&Cs it says "All updates are provided to you on a license exchange basis such that you agree, as a precondition for recieving an update, that you will terminate all your rights to use any previous version of the software." if you sign up for the subscription, and you update your plugins, no longer have license to older versions.

[@chuckbiscuito]

@@LabofmusicRecords Agreed, I was referring (and replying more to the other reply) to if you don’t sign up, can you still use what you already paid for? And the answer is an indirect “yes”, from the FAQ.

[@vadimmartynyuk]

Waves also have been running sales on plugins days before they did this. Imagine buying bunch of waves plugins on sale and next day hearing the news that they went subscription only.

[@ChumpyDumps]

To be fair their plug-ins are literally always on sale. Everything about their business model has always felt extremely dated.

[@billB101]

I just did, I bought their DBX160.

[@JoshWiniberg]

I spent £200+ on Clarity Vx Pro just a couple of days before they dropped the news. Incredible unsavoury business practice, I'm not at all pleased.

[@somedood6621]

Yeah I’m not interested in subscribing to access my tools. It’s not an entertainment service like Netflix. I need these to regularly do what I do. Imagine you call up a plumber and they needed to rent out their tools for the job. Just silly, honestly. I can easily find better sounding plugins that I can own instead.

[@DanielStaff_]

Warning: In the T&Cs it says "All updates are provided to you on a license exchange basis such that you agree, as a precondition for recieving an update, that you will terminate all your rights to use any previous version of the software." Thus if you sign up for the subscription, in turn you update your plugins and no longer have license to older versions (that your perpetual license sit under!) Dont support this company anymore and send a message to the rest of the industry! beside who want to put their projects behind a paywall that a company like waves can at any point crank up the pricing? don't do it, own your tools.

[@mudi2000a]

That is really a big WTF. So everyone who downloads the trial and fails to read this will be f***ed.

[@djentlover]

Holy shit that's scary and scummy

[@traveler263]

you say that they have the right to adopt any business model, and we have the right to refuse their business, but the reality is that people who bought waves will now lose their property due to updates ... meh ... I'm sure you know this ... and your suggestion fixes exactly this ( somewhat ). but due to this I strongly disagree with saying they have the right to adopt this business model. the only reason they can do it, is because there isn't a law against it yet. the move is super predatory ... OH MAN how happy I am now thinking how I looked at that Horizon bundle for 2 days ... then got a PA subscription instead 😂

[@TheDarrenJones]

Very good suggestion! Locked-out pause really would be a good idea, although I can't see the MBA-types going for it, sadly. My main criticism of this is how it's been handled - only 2 days before they went sub-only, they sent me a mail with an offer to upgrade my bundle that I have with them. Which while that wouldn't have been totally wasted money, it's not something I would have even considered had I known that it would be frozen-in-time and potentially unusable once an OS upgrade comes along that will mean they'll no longer be compatible with it.

[@jakelondon]

Similar situation. Got an e-mail about that recently as well. Wish I hadn't dropped the ball on acting on it. Would have definitely paid for another year of upgrade on one of my plugins. Don't use enough Waves plugins to pay $110 a year. Will have to find replacements when the ones I've got stop working...

[@chuckbiscuito]

I agree. I would have likely given them one more year of purchase had they given me more than a couple of days to think about it.

[@siriusfun]

A sleazy move, no doubt about it. On principle, they should be boycotted.

[@ZoomRmc]

Pleading with the company when it makes anti-consumer moves never works. Just vote with your money.

[@KozmykJ]

It worked on Bitwig with the Spectral Scandal. They caved.

[@alexeyayzin8512]

The new standard. Unfortunately ownership is being ripped from us in every industry at every level. Not to endorse the practice, but this is a leading cause of piracy. Just read any piracy forum.

[@beatbuildersstudio]

I mean to be fair we own nothing anyways. It's perceptive. You rent the internet, your phone plan, heat, gas, car insurance, property tax. You even borrow your own body. You don't own it. Once you die it goes into the ground for the earth to use.

[@mudi2000a]

Piracy is not the solution. And not because only of morality but because if you pirate them you take away the opportunity from competitors to grow. And also you give them mind share that they should not have. So in my opinion the only option is just don’t use them any more.

[@emveeoh]

Your suggestion is good. However, there is a more fundamental problem that you did not address. I prefer to leave my operating system stable and predictable by not upgrading the OS very often. In order to support old operating systems, Waves would need to make their Subscription application work with old operating systems also. Unfortunately, I do not see this happening. We will be forced into keeping our OS updated, just so that we can remain compatible with their subscription app. This fundamentally changes how I am able to archive projects. I do not wish to bounce every channel to audio going forward. So, from this day forward, I will never use a Waves plug-in again. That is, unless we are able to convince them of their mistake and they reverse course (fingers crossed). Even then, they've lost my trust.

[@beatbuildersstudio]

This can happen with any plugin maker. I have old computers and used plugins I loved. However, the company stopped updating the plugin. You had to buy the updated one. So subscription or not with technology there is a life span Unfortunily whether we "own it" or pay a subscription for it.

[@bfreitas456]

just pirate the shit out of them. why bother?

[@DanWorrall]

Fair point. But I long ago gave up any idea that my DAW would not be online, so I like to have my OS up to date for security reasons. Regarding printing: instruments should be printed at the mix stage anyway IMO, to avoid possible variations in output (free running oscillators, random modulation, round robin samples etc.). But if an old project is missing a few compressors or EQs or something when I return to it, I can probably fix that easily enough. No big deal.

[@harrisbeatsfrankou6304]

@@DanWorrall I'm a beginner mixer that had a Tascam 8 Track...a W30 and some hardware ( Alessis BBE ) And I never thought about what you just said...round robin, oscillators modulators... It's so "Captain Obvious" now you point that out for me. I render the midi. Thanks for that logical advice

[@Music-tg5is]

There are two methods most musicians tend to take when it comes to Operating Systems. Either keep a (mostly offline) stable and efficient system for music production (like Windows 7). Or an online and up-to-date OS with all the latest system and security updates (like Windows 11). Both methods are equally valid, imho. Although, the former is probably still more reliable, overall.

[@damienlewis7882]

Apple needs to chill with the yearly OS updates as well.

[@mudi2000a]

That is true, I sometimes don’t understand how they always break things. On the other hand there are many, even smaller developers for which it is not an issue. Maybe it is a question how clean your code is.

[@chuckbiscuito]

@@mudi2000a The DSP code really only changes when the bit format (32>64 for example) does, but in the case of Waves and other authors taking a long time to support M1 or a new macOS version, there can be issues in frameworks they’ve written or used, which also need to support new apple API changes or processors. Even that isn’t a great excuse, but that is an actual reason some devs have run into.

[@mudi2000a]

@@chuckbiscuito yes correct. But if you update your plugins yearly like Waves does (or did, or at least pretended to do) then this should not be an issue. Just look at Arturia, they have been making plugins for a long time but obviously took care of their code and always bring speedy updates, did not take them long for M1 or new MacOS support.

[@billB101]

Abso-friggin-lutely. Fed up of older software becoming non-backward compatible on Mac OS. My PC has non of these problems.

[@damienlewis7882]

@@chuckbiscuito it's more of an daw issue than plugin related, but it's all one in the same, the new OS is gonna get you somewhere

[@eloigg6419]

If they lock the interface, people can still access the parameters from the DAW (from the parameters list). If they lock external access to parameters, then old projects with automation won't sound properly. I wonder how they could deal with that

[@KCinSD84]

They should allow previous owners to continue paying WUP on their paid plugins, and only funnel newer users into the subscription model.

[@realraven2000]

100% my friend. or at least allow us one last update to v14 and then we can freeze our projects and decide whether to opt in to subscriptions later. this seems very rushed; as a member of the mailing list I do not like that there was zero heads up before changing the model. the discomfort of having various versions forever seems calculated.

[@mergo573]

Agreed! The fact we’ve had to pay the WUP for years and now if we hop on the subscription model it renders our licenses useless is outrageous

[@arturlins4482]

If they went full subscription, but maintained WUP for the existing licenses, the reception to this new model would have been much better received by the customers. It is really shameful that they decided to ignore it.

[@royareyzabal823]

That still feels scummy

[@siriusfun]

OR... better yewt, offer a choice, like any other subscription-based company does. All they've succeeded in doing is to show their competitors what NOT to do. I guess that's a good thing.

[@meis18mofo77]

hate drm heavie companys like waves, never bought one of their plugins, don't intend to in the future :)

[@joeMW284]

At the end of a mix I've started rendering down any channel with plugins to a new take (I'm on Reaper). That way if I need to go back years later I won't have to scour the internet for a plugin I phased out a decade ago. The original audio is always available in the previous take. This is also a useful hack for mixing during plugin trial periods.

[@NgaTaeOfficial]

Everyone should do this as a matter of course after completing a mixdown. Making a stems package or “Remix Kit” gives you a set of WAVs that will always be compatible with any DAW, forever.

[@unclemick-synths]

Very wise

[@Dysjoint]

Should be standard procedure. Try opening old projects from 15 years, 12 DAW updates and three machines back and you will see why. And by you I mean my dumbass.

[@AnimusInvidious]

This is a good general workflow.

[@harrisbeatsfrankou6304]

I'm doing that when I freeze and flatten midi...if it slows down cpu with a reverb compressor etc. But I'll do what you do in the future. And have all tracks as waves in a hidden sub group. Makes sense. I use Ableton and Reaper.

[@annekedebruyn7797]

They should have done with Slate did. Offer both perpetual and subscription

[@frankpaws]

Its a great suggestion but from what I have seen, Waves doesn't care. They have a take it or leave it attitude. Seems like most are leaving it.

[@mudi2000a]

Yes it is quite a bold move to go subscription only when you read everywhere people are cutting on their subscriptions e.g. Netflix etc for economic reasons.

[@heanz]

waves still having no oversampling in 2023, sinking ship. except a few plugins i don't miss it.

[@southernman2]

I have worked 10 years building up my plugins folders. I own almost every Waves plugin. Now I'll spend 10 more years finding replacements. I'm sure that will make other software developers happy.

[@G_handle]

Naahhh.... you'll only spend about 10-Days. Millions of your colleagues will help you out....

[@jeffreyhanc1711]

There’s so many good plugin manufacturers these days; it shouldn’t take you 10 years. I recall the days when only UAD and Waves were the companies building “top tier” plugins. I sold my renaissance bundle and UAD card/plugs years ago and never looked back. Companies of the past IMHO

[@FlorentChardevel]

The issue I see with this idea is that you can control plugins without using the interface. Meaning there's 2 options: letting people use the plugins without the actual interface, or blocking completely the settings, resulting in automations and modulations not working in your projects. Anyway, it'd be nice if Waves went for this idea, but given how they already made us pay for updates, I'd be very surprised if they did.

[@ahreuwu]

Sure, but how many are going to bother digging through the unorganized parameters on their daw to use a (now) unlicensed plugin? I doubt people will do this often enough to be a problem, and I hope Waves (or any dev using Dan's suggestion) would let that use case slip by to get the goodwill of all the others that won't do that.

[@G_handle]

Ah....Good point, automation.....fuck!

[@PolarTrance]

@@ahreuwu People will do a lot stuff to get plugins for free, parameters without ui is totally doable without much hassle. Like on FL you can just use patcher to make a UI for a plugin that has no UI, and then it gets shared on the forums and everybody has it now. It takes more computer resources and is maybe less useful than the actual UI, but you have the plugin and that's good enough. Like people really export tracks with plugins in demo modes when the audio cuts out every x second, so that is nothing.

[@Clarity-808]

You can lock parameters even from automation. Not a big deal.

[@FlorentChardevel]

@@Clarity-808 the point was to be able to open older projects. If automations stop working, then your older projects will be degraded.

[@sm5574]

Dan takes a few months off and comes back with two videos in one day. Works for me. 🙂

[@sm5574]

​@This Guy, that is certainly a pessimistic approach to life, yes.

[@spencerlievens]

So using waves plugins since the mid 90's. Looking like that 30yr excursion is finally at an end... Now where's that UAD website, and my wallet?

[@Tony-yp7ok]

Their total disregard for loyal customers who have spent thousands is astonishing. I expect they will try and roll it back a bit following the backlash, but they won’t see another penny of my money.

[@cowbless]

Making an uneducated stance on consumer rights ("shop elsewhere"), yet lampooning the DJs over their own uneducated opinions. People used to suggest shopping elsewhere to Apple users too, and now their anti-consumeristic practices are being adopted by so many other corporations. There's a difference between "shopping elsewhere" and a well articulated condemnation of such practices. The former suggests that a company should just grow big and influential enough. The latter implies that there's a demand for fundamental change. Waves backtracked their decision, but no thanks to meek and indifferent public responses such as this video here.

[@GingerDrums]

I have the Mercury bundle upgraded to M1. I won't be putting them into any new sessions from today. Done.

[@dirtyharry1881]

Sometimes anger and indignation is the appropriate reaction. Otherwise Say hi to your next Native Instruments and Izotope or soundtoys and softube subscriptions until in the end you will have to pay $250 a month to use stuff you have already paid thousands for.

[@dimitrisgakis9206]

''You 'll own nothing and be happy''

[@rockstarjazzcat]

Your suggestion makes great sense. But will Waves listen? They've long since had me roped in with "pay to keep what you already purchased" working with little or no apparent enhancement of existing functionality. I'll be interested to see how they weather this episode. Their email today was no more assuring than their initial message two days ago. You are correct about their rights and ours. As a software developer, I don't expect "free" by any means. In the context of many, many plugin manufacturers with arguably better business models though, they've earned the ire. Cheers Dan, Daniel

[@Gw49172]

However the cracks will continue working ... so ....

[@razorgarf]

They don't update their plugins enough to even warrant a subscription model, also who on earth subscribe if they just use a handful plugins?

[@Finite-Tuning]

Umm, FK NO! Countless numbers of plugins were sold as stand alone. They MUST stand alone and there is no wiggle room, no option, no excuses, period! Don't be freezing my plugins, somebody's gonna get their ass handed on numerous platters if this is the new game they want to play. Hard Fking NO! Cheers 🍻

[@marcotronic]

I don‘t care anymore. Today I‘ve just uninstalled everything Waves from my PC. Hardly used their plugins anymore anyway. Their update plan stuff was annoying enough already.

[@bontempo1271]

I don't like to interfere with your business Dan, but lots of us spent a good amount of money to own Waves products, and they will be rendered useless. They were pushing sales while knowing this was going to happen. For that alone they deserve to be trashed. I truly want a refund.

[@DanWorrall]

As I understand it your existing plugins will continue to work, you just won't get updates. To be clear, I think Waves are making a mistake and I wouldn't be surprised to see some kind of walk back. But still, everyone got exactly what they paid for. Updates were never included, that's what WUP was for.

[@bontempo1271]

@@DanWorrall I mean, it's an appalling practice to leave their customers without future updates, rendering that very product useless, but they did not inform us that WUP was going to end, so effectively they were selling products with only a years worth of insured compatibility. If i had known that i wouldn't have made the purchases. Whether they have covered themselves legally is a different matter to whether they were mis-selling.

[@G_handle]

So you went DEFCON-6 on Harrison, but Waves gets a pillow-fight. Really Dan...

[@rkdmiii]

/// Waves might not survive this.

[@triplebeam23]

Yea that would be cool and all if alot of us didn't invest 100s of dollars and get baited in then have the rug pulled from you.. I'm good on that .. I'll use what I have till it quits working then spend my money elsewhere..

[@dasczwo]

In the end we will own nothing but be happy. Not with me. Farewell waves, i loved many of your plugins. Your marketing always went on my nerves. In the future I will spend my money on something i can own.

[@siriusfun]

I agree with business models, of course. However those of us who have already paid thousands on their products should not be locked out of 'perpetual' licenses. It's as simple as that. It seems to me they're in breach of contract.

[@gwsound]

Waves plugins, why bother there are so many other and often better options. Most of them even don't support over sampling etc. Waves is maybe what Nokia once was in the gsm market and you know how that ended.

[@macronencer]

I don't like subscription models much (though I do think Bitwig has a good one), but if I had to name a silver lining it would be that the more software moves to subscription-only, the less incentive there will be for us to use a large number of different products. Perhaps the leaner, meaner production setups will lead to less technical distraction and more artistic quality. Just playing devil's advocate :) As for Waves, I gave them up many years ago after I realised that until I bought their premium level support I wasn't even allowed to submit bug reports - which I thought was a step too far. I mean, didn't they WANT help with their QA, or what? Perhaps that policy has gone now, but they blew it with me and I never came back.

[@tntero]

Unfortunately, as we're seeing with TV subscription services, we're very bad t restraining ourselves when we have the choice. So what happens is that we get more and more subscription services if we can afford them, or we resort to piracy. Which I think is the short-sighted thing that everyone moving to subscription services doesn't realise. People stopped pirating because it became easier to use things on a subscription than pirating. Once it starts becoming easier to pirate again than paying for and managing 50 subscriptions, people will go back to it.

[@macronencer]

​@@tntero You could be right. When it comes to music and video, I've dropped out of the mainstream (pun intended) and I mostly only buy CDs and DVDs. I rip them to a hard drive, and I completely avoid Netflix etc., Amazon Prime, Spotify, Apple Music - I'm just not interested. I'm all about the quality experience, not the convenience factor - and I know I'm the exception of course, not the rule. As for TV, I gave up on it in disgust because the advertising was becoming so excessive that I realised that my goal (trying to consume quality content) was now impossible to achieve. I gave up in 2004, and have mostly not regretted it. Without TV, I've watched a lot of KZbin but the rest of the time has filled up with lots of interesting stuff that I wouldn't have made time for otherwise. Although I do like "off grid" media consumption, it is starting to get more difficult as production companies begin to remove DVD from their supported formats. I was collecting Stranger Things, and now I can't any more - same with a few others like Archer, Family Guy etc. But that doesn't matter all that much to me, as I'm more into cinema really. I do occasionally get angry and wonder whether I should just pirate the shows I'm missing, but so far I've resisted the temptation. Sorry, long ramble!

[@NoQualmsTheArtist]

I paid for a perpetual licence, that was the agreed upon contract. Waves is now breaching that contract. As a business this is unacceptable. It's that simple.

[@slayabouts]

Thanks for the rationality as always. As a side note, I think you should add the old waveform behind the logo to your videos. The logo’s great, but it seems a little lonely

[@dabanjo]

It comes down to $$$. Of course. They aren't selling as many plugins because the market is oversaturated. And there are free plugins that's are just as good. How many compressors and eqs do you need anyway?

[@mudi2000a]

It’s kind of sad because besides their usual stuff they also brought e.g. Waves Harmony or Clarity VX which are super cool. And of course Harmony is only in the expensive plan. Fortunately in the past I could resist to buy it.

[@ErreGamer]

Waves it's the Facebook of audio, just waiting for a tiktok app to come and destroy them 😅

[@_allcap]

I don't do subscriptions but I don't mind anybody wanting to go that route. The issue is for plugins I have already own. I should not be penalized. Why would I pay the same as someone who has zero plugins. They should continue the nasty WUP, for previously own plugins only. For the occasions we need to update to the newest version.

[@griffgoldsteinreference]

After this shit they’re pulling: I ain’t getting another waves plugin nor updating any of mine

[@BrofUJu]

Highly recommend unsubscribing to the newsletter to send a message too.

[@delusionwalker8852]

It's time for me to uninstall this crap. I regret buying their plugins.

[@MixedByDotRob]

No need to be flamey! 😉 The waves guys are old enough to decide for themselves whether they still want my WUP money (for the plugins I actually use) or not. And regarding old sessions: print, print, print! 😛

[@mechasartre3694]

Digital feudalism.

[@nomoimusic3096]

I wish it was only digital but late capitalism becomes neofeudalism in all areas

[@visionx272]

I think people would have less of a problem if it was optional. Hopefully the blowback will stop other companies from making the same mistake as waves

[@Music-tg5is]

Yes, but the problem then is, how long until an 'optional' subscription model eventually becomes a 'compulsory' subscription-only model yet again? Especially, for a company like Waves, who I bet many previous customers have long since abandoned for other rival developers offerings. The subscription model probably would make them more money than trying to get any existing customers (who haven't yet jumped ship) to continue to pay annual update fees for negligible software improvements.

[@visionx272]

@@Music-tg5is Yes. They should not be trusted by anyone moving forward, they deserve to be bankrupted.

[@go-away-5555]

I had not heard about this. But also I generally stay away from music production social media except for a select few sources like your videos. Thanks for the heads-up, Dan. Gonna miss H-Delay. I mean I own a perpetual license, but I think I'm just going to uninstall all of my Waves stuff and be done with them for good.

[@donbraga4863]

And this my friends is the burning building at Waves over there....

[@pdxnet96studios]

Own nothing and be .... pissed

[@CypiXmusic]

Tbh i wanted to use Waves before but the whole installation process was a pain, so i never ended up going for it. Was a good idea i guess haha

[@ici1140]

in fact I don't even want to hear from them anymore. Except to learn bankruptcy

[@brianrainsfordmarshall2692]

They're on the BDS list so I dumped them years ago. Not a big loss, they stopped inovating years ago, most of their highly rated stuff is a decade + old. Better companies out there.

[@GRedit1000]

interesting that UA just went the opposite way with their native plugins

[@Magic_carpet666]

Dan that's a rather… tame stance from you regarding such capitalistic practices. The move to a subscription model is just another way to milk people out and deplete them even further of any kind of ownership. It sucks.

[@DanWorrall]

That's just how capitalism works though, right? Either this move is successful and their profits go up... In which case that arguably proves the plugins are currently undervalued... Or they'll lose customers and probably have to rethink. If they were selling insulin, gouging the highest price would be immoral. But they're selling plugins, so it's just annoying really.

[@OWL.]

Plugin market is so saturated that this change doesn't matter.

[@ableton-i3d]

But does it cramp near nyquist?

[@andivax]

Awesome suggestion, Dan! Unfortunately Waves don't give a f@ck😂

[@EdwinDekker71]

Waves went from suck to blow

[@hens0879]

Have you made a video about splice? considering your points and unavailable to you if you freeze your subscription

[@billB101]

Yeah, I have a Splice account I've built up a ton of points with and no longer want to pay the subscription, if I cancel I lose everything that I've already paid for. These companies are a joke with this crap nowadays, just shitty business model after shitty business model.

[@AmeyahOfficialTV]

goodbye waves ;) great video!

[@blankspace0000]

Really happy to see the community backlash from their decision to do this.

[@arpaddanos9416]

I prefer the Melda model. For about 1k when it is on sale, you can make a one time purchase of all software and get free updates + anything new they release for life. No restrictions on how many of your own computers you install on either.

[@myyt4382]

Hi Dan, this was not expected. Mastermind advice actually! They should pay you for that. And hat down for your polite and very to the point and constructive feedback! I would not be able to avoid flame like smaug 😂

[@Abbaddonna]

I use Reaper and switched to using Reaper stock plugins as well as a few free ones for my mixing a while back. I am no professional mixer, my main purpose is to write demos of my songs that give a good idea about the songs. But I was surprised how much I did not need any of the subscription plugins that I had achieving the same result with stock and free plugins!

[@Stefan-]

Im not a pro either and im also using just Reaper stock and free plugins even amp sims and im more than fine with that, im currently mixing an album for my band and it sounds just great so i have no need for any paid plugins.

[@musar03580]

I'm a REAPER user, too. I've chosen REAPER and FabFilter plug-ins.

[@VictorLombardi]

Ditto for Logic

[@Beatsbasteln]

i'm totally with you. this controversy is really lame. it's waves' own fault if they make decisions that can't be easily liked. i don't have to waste my time thinking about it

[@samharrington9342]

I agree with any businesses to charge what they want however if you look at the maths, the more waves products you have brought, the more expensive the subscription service is in real terms. That penalises customer loyalty which is terrible

[@einglert]

Those of us in the professional architecture community (and the wider built-environment professions) have been *suffering* this subscription-based business model for some years...won't bore you with the details (e.g., Autodesk, Trimble, et. al.) My response has been that open source modeling programs like Blender have become a pretty good alternative. Not sure Audacity is gonna cut it for most of you professional producers, though! My concern is with the general hypothesis that seems to apply here: Since professionals have traditionally had an ethic of ownership with respect to our workflows and the tools that we used, then have we lost agency and relevance in this bargain? What does it mean to have an expertise gained over years be involuntarily *shared* with our toolmakers? What is next: shall I *rent* the materials used on site? Subscriptions make great sense for my Netflix consumption...not so much for my hammer. (Read: DAW, plugins, etc.) Hey vendors, mitts off my tool! ;-)

[@petefaders]

The actual problem, not mentioned here, is after spending thousands of dollars there WAS no way to update without renting things you already bought...for life. It's just not well thought out, or greedy...one or the other. Glad it's been rectified. WUP is back! Yay LOL.

[@ThiagoAbdalla]

Don't use Waves... but it might be a tendency for other companies. Will next step be return to out-of-the-box? 🙃Them... rent analog equipment? OMG!

[@tootory9506]

"THIEVES Plugins" WAVES = THIEVES .. We do not like Being FORCED into Subscriptions - When I Open An Old Session for a Client I Want To Know My Plugin Investments Will Be There and Active. Mercury, Abby Road, Studio Classics, Owner - 20 Years Invested

[@SamiJumppanen]

It's good I don't have a bedroom. I have a room full of gear I like to call obsolete, but I'm using them for some sounds and they don't ask for subscription. Once I get my impulse responses right, Reaper will be even better for mixing. The raw maths: sequence + record + mix in Reaper on Linux = the old computer needed for this you get free from a friend. (Disclaimer: to get 24 analog I/O I had to spend 150 and several years)

[@jesperborgstrm3385]

I have missed you Dan. It’s been a while. Looking forward to the next one 🎉

[@Quimmoo]

I don't like Waves plugins at all. Sound is mostly okayish, and I've found some use for a binaural software (CLA Nx), but I just can't stand their UIs. I don't know if there's a single person like me, who cares about a UI, not just sound, but it is what it is. The only plugin I gotta miss is the Kramer helios 69, but I've seen that PA now has one from Lindell, might give this a try and buy on sale, if I like it. Or maybe UAD will add it to Spark somewhen down the road.

[@grdalenoort]

So, some have 4, 5, 6 go-to plugins from different brands (and even payed maybe a whopping 500 to 600 credits), Then all decide to go subscription model , then you're talking maybe 200.- a month 😱 Nope, not want !

[@JK-zx3go]

Don't do it kids.

[@PolarTrance]

They have a right to do so, doesn't mean they should or that it's a good thing. Subscription models for services make sense, but for products not so much. For products it's often really anti-consumer. I can save money up for a one time purchase, you can't do that with a subscription model without changing your income/expense situation permanently. Subscriptions are harder to keep track of, and because it sounds like a small amount, it fools people in to paying thousands. Especially since people don't cancel all that easily. "But I have projects that use it still" "I'll use this month, I'm sure" "I forgot I even had this subscription". The suggestion isn't a bad idea if you could make it work (how would automation work?), but fuck anybody doing a subscription model for products that have no justifications for being on a subscription model. If you can't abandon the product, at least start pirating it, companies that do this deserve to go bankrupt.

[@sh1maru]

They'll never do that, that would be too good

[@DeltaWhiskeyBravo13579]

Very good message, Dan. I'm not hating on Waves, I just don't like their business model and decision to format plug-in access this way. I exercise my right to go elsewhere for my plug-ins, and I will do that immediately. All of my Waves are replaced by Pulsar, Melda, etc.

[@DeltaWhiskeyBravo13579]

@dfasht not for me, I just decided I don't care how they do business and I've moved on

[@Illkacirma]

R.I.P. Waves

[@QuiethouseRecording]

My thought is if you used the plug-in before they switched over to the subscription model then you probably have a perpetual license. And if you have a perpetual license, you should have no problem loading that plug-in. The problem only comes in where you’re using Plug-ins with a subscription plan. Why don’t people who have subscriptions like plug in alliance have this problem? Oh, maybe it’s because plug-in alliance allows you to purchase a perpetual license during your subscription and gives you incentives to purchase those plug-ins. Yeah I am not sure how they thought this through because it just seems like a bad bad business move.

[@SomedayTomorrow369]

Hey just wanna say a big thanks for all your helpful videos , and I’ve now decided to upload my first song and would love your feedback, keep up the great work 👍🏼👍🏼

[@Music-tg5is]

Thankfully, I abandoned Waves years ago, long before they were subscription only, for alternative (and imho better) developer's plugins. I always purchase plugins outright and would never persist with any developer who decided to go the 'never own / rent forever' subscription-only model.

[@mfkrwill]

Hey Dan I just had a thought pop up and I don't see many videos, if any at all, on here: How exactly does a De-clipper (like Perfect Declipper) actually work?

[@Highlineheros]

It’s heartwarming to know the whole audio community came together to throw gas on the dumpster fire that is waves. Don’t stop now more gas and pitchforks we need at the very least free updates!

[@E-1K]

Started using Waves in 2001. This new bit doesn't work for me. As it is, I've already had suitable replacements for everything I use and for the most part just used Waves out of sentimentality (some memorable times being in my early twenties, switching from tape to Pro Tools and WAVES was the absolute uncontested top dog). And me, I'd been plotting out a purchase to grab that new Waves saturator and a few other bits right about now. I really wish they didn't do this without a heads up. I think I have 7 Waves saturators so I'll live.

[@TheBiomuse]

@danworrall , nothing about the *way* in which this was rolled out? Keeping the change secret, including from ever-since-V1 users like myself who's bought most of their plugs and, in one case of a customer support thread, actually denying that it was going to occur? Nothing about how that treats customers almost purely adversarially? Come on, man. Yes, everyone's looking out for their own interests at some level, but letting your customers know what you're up to and not treating them like chumps goes a long way. I resent the strong implication, built into this rollout, that all I've been doing for two decades has been exploiting Waves, so now it's okay if Waves exploits me. That's not the truth. I've been online and in-person rebutting the naysayers and the WUP-bellyachers throughout. No more. Still holding out hope that this is one big April Fool's joke. It sure feels like one to me.

[@ChristopherRoss.]

I walked away from waves years ago, purely by virtue of the nature of their DRM. Also the shady nature of their shift to 64 bit, where they tried to lock me out of my 32 bit purchases (via their DRM bullshit) and buried the access to my legally purchased plugins under layer upon layer of workaround, all in an attempt to have me buy the plugins that already worked for me, once again. Screw them.

[@D-One]

Even if they change thier minds about this people really shouldn't support waves, they have always been shady. Ditched them long ago, happy I did so.

[@bassplayingchris]

Apart from djs of course.... 😅 a pause where the interface is locked seems like an excellent mid ground. I have the waves vu meter but while they have a lot of good stuff I've always seen them as a bit dishonest with the amount of basic basic plugins being sold with a cool "analog" looking interface

[@someenchilada]

Even their old model didn’t work for me. While I understand they’re constantly working on their plugins, the WUP really caught me off guard the first time. Ultimately it just stopped making sense. If you look at it that way, it was always a subscription model.

[@harrisbeatsfrankou6304]

I may go hardware soon. I miss my Tascam days. Ableton for sequencing. Use real hardware via insert Jacks and Send Return Busses.

[@unclemick-synths]

As a consumer I choose not to subscribe to software. No Adobe, no Roland Cloud, and now no Waves. Just like TV streaming services, there is a limit to how many we can afford unless we're professionals who can claim the expense against taxes.

[@gossamyr]

I don't think there is a dialogue in this situation, they made their choice. I won't ever give them money and I will continue shredding the use of plugins and pitch hardware forever, this simply being evidence for that narrative. This situation will get worse as time goes on, because giving a company money for use of a plugin is not ownership of that plugin. You have all been fed a lie that's had its terms of service adjusted slightly over the years. So, here is your solution, rent/demo a plugin, sample the fucking shit out of it. Save those files, back them up and use them. Sampling has advanced(timestretching/pitching/etc). I'm absolutely certain Mr. Worrall could level up your sample game in ways that would make you cry and it won't scathe or burn anyone, it's just alternative rage. Make note of all companies that are stupid enough to follow this path, find out which companies actually own them and do the most useful thing in the world with your anger, don't...give...them...money...