80/20 Training to Ride Faster | Dr Stephen Seiler

[@jt.8144]

The take away. People tend to OVERTHINK nowadays.. with so much High Expectations at so very little effort.. much more any consistency and lack of discipline. The desire for THAT HACK to shortcut themselves is pretty much what everyone Nowadays want. Doesn't work that way. I'm so glad Dr. Stephen Seiler, PhD. Threw in the truth.

[@THECONTROVERSIALCYCLIST]

I think this has been one of your best guests yet👍👍👍 Complete logical sense, no marketing, no hype, no marginal gains that cost $1000s, just your strongest resource yourself... Body, mind, spirit and soul.... Road cycling has lost its soul and this guy has brought back to us. Thank you guys 💪💪💪💪👍👍👍

[@rleague685]

Excellent observation!

[@Rick-zx2ik]

There is also something very important that has become almost extinct since the “Covid cycling boom”: Cycling Etiquette. Has anyone else noticed this on their local group rides? It seems to me that none of the newer riders even know what that is.

[@bg147]

Yea, all of the videos I see advertised on YT about the secret to this, the key to that, a miracle to accomplish this. Gobbledygook.

[@ketle369]

As a Norwegian who did cross country skiing in the 80ies and 90ies I can confirm this absolutely 💯 true. I also know Gustav Iden dad and he made the youth rider walk the hills if their pulse gets too high on a zone 2 session. As an older man I did my best century ever when I did two sessions of 3-4 hours of zone 2 a week and one session of intervals or threshold.

[@starlitshadows]

This might be the best Seiler interview I've seen. For me at least you guys touched on a lot of things I needed to hear. Had a hard session of an hour of intervals riding at my FTP and a bit of VO2 early last week in a 2 hr ride then followed it by another long ride. Come Friday and I do one VO2 interval and just couldn't get my heartrate up or put the power down in my second. Totally gassed, felt like total shit like I had nothing. Been fatigued after as well. Lined up with Stephen talking about people calling it after the first interval. Realizing I need to listen to my body more and make some adjustments. Appreciate this one.

[@jnatiw]

Seiler is always spreading gold, but this one takes the cake. I sometimes take notes when watching videos like this. I'm less than halfway through and I've got two pages. We live in a wonderful time, friends. There absolutely are secrets to successful training. But they're only secrets because you have to get through the noise of distracting advise from so called experts. Find something like this amid the noise and confusion and cherish it. Thanks for a great podcast.

[@shepshape2585]

I have been doing polarized training for years now, but you guys touched on some topics that I had never heard Dr Seiler discuss before, and I'm grateful. I have never had an issue with not being able to get my heart rate up, but I have a friend who this happens to all the time, and now I know why. He always goes either tempo or intervals, never taking the time to train properly. That's an issue with so many cyclists, especially if you're doing group rides or even just riding with a friend or two. You don't ever want to be thought of as slow, so you go out and hammer all the time. I train almost exclusively by myself, because I do so much zone 1 training, and I know nobody else is going to want to do it. No matter, I love doing zone 1 rides, enjoying the scenery, listening to music, and just enjoying being on my bike. Makes the hours go by so nicely. Thanks for the great podcast!

[@annelisenorth8670]

Best podcast yet!!! This polarized or 80/20 is such an old concept. Arthur Lydiard brought this concept into running way back, I think the late 70's. It was then known as LSD... Long slow distance. I used to cover about 80-100km per week in distance running, and I was a 400m sprinter!! I'm so glad the mention of the zones, I've been a mountain biker for almost 15 years, but recently changed to gravel riding, with my first race about 4 months away -160km (at the ripe age of 65), and I struggle to keep in this damn zone 2. Well, after listening to this podcast, these damn zones can take a hike. I think a good mixture of distance, tempo, intervals, hill repeats, recovery and rest should do the trick. Thanks for a great show, from Cape Town, SA.

[@wang220]

Yep. I did the LSD too 40 years ago. Then the hard days were pretty damn hard too back then.

[@norsangkelsang7939]

my girlfriend used the in the late 70s... she got slower. I did low distance, high intensity, never lost. I wonder if different people respond differently.

[@clippingin1593]

Spot-on! I was looking for a Lydiard reference. Arthur was advocating his 100 mpw system in the early 60s when Peter Snell was all-conquering at 800 & 1500. A lot of people misinterpreted his perceived effort levels and thought it was just steady mileage but the quality was always there.

[@adydanner]

Lydiard system was train don't strain. Listen to your body and build a massive aerobic base that allows you to do high levels of anaerobic work. The boys in his local town trained with him and at the 1960 Olympics snell won gold in 800 halberg gold in 5000 and magee bronze in the marathon. Bill bowerman visited Lydiard and took the lessons back to USA and the jogging craze started about the same time as Nike took off.

[@Northwindbreeze]

@@norsangkelsang7939absolutely. I have a natural muscular build. I despise endurance and loved as kid to sprint out my friends. Any time literally any time I ride above my LT1 or tires me. I am happy doing long very easy and damn hard intervals at zone 5. And lastly, my genetic test tells me I am not an endurance but a 90% sprinter. Some people will ride hard everyday at the middle and still recover, not me.

[@jpmorgen5726]

When I was in my early 40's, during the winter, I did ten weeks, five to seven, three hour rides a week, keeping my heart rate between 100 and 130, the results were crazy good!.

[@ketle369]

I have the same experience, but only did two sessions a week of zone 2 and one interval session.

[@Northwindbreeze]

@@ketle369how many hours per session?

[@ketle369]

@@Northwindbreeze zone 2 one hour or more, but most where 2-4 hours. Interval is 4x4 or just ride for a minute up a hill as hard as you can and repeat 5 times. This will go a long way. You probably know yourself when it’s time to do more. The “hardest” part is actually going easy enough on the zone 2. Done correctly you should feel like could do it all over again the next day.

[@Northwindbreeze]

@@ketle369 kudos for the input! Yes, Zone 2 training improves aerobic capacity but is challenging. So you do basically what Seiler said many times, go easy on easy days and really hard on hard days.

[@Northwindbreeze]

@@ketle369 ok thanks. It is good to get different training insights and zone 2 is a brain toaster.

[@jacksonhayes6218]

The good old principle 3 principles of cycling performance still holds true and always will: ride your bike, ride your bike, ride your bike (with the modern adaptation of eat carbs and sleep a lot)

[@b-manz]

Soon to be changed to eat fat

[@richardmiddleton7770]

​@@b-manz yes, far more essential! Carbs work in a lab on one 'time to exhaustion' test, tested on athletes who aren't fat adapted!

[@richardmiddleton7770]

Yes, that's the beauty of zone 2 training, you can do it everyday without much fatigue build up.

[@87togabito]

Not really. Technically it’s just providing yhe stimuli for adaptation; you don’t need to ride your bike for that tbh. Case in point, I spent the entire of 2023 riding indoors doing structured rides; regular trainneroad HIIT intervals and 3-4 hrs long z2 weekly. I think I rode outdoors less than 10 times? Main reason being that I wanted to game on my console since I found gaming/nerflix > cycling in enjoyment. FTP is up 20% from the start of 2023 on a conservative 6-7hrs ride time weekly. I’m now able to catch up and pace the folks that I couldn’t keep up with before, even though they ride way more than me. So, you absolutely DO NOT NEED to ride your bike; you just need to spin your legs.

[@paddyotoole2058]

@@87togabitoCool story bro

[@Damian-eh9vl]

One of the best pods i've heard on training principles. I've been very unsure of training direction and how much intensity i should add into my week. Thank you

[@fhowland]

LOVE what he said about rest days. I’ve always intuitively felt that recovery days on the bike hurt me more than help.

[@erlendsteren9466]

I was sittin on my Rocky Mountain Rail on a wahoo Kickr virtually riding trough Taiwan and really enjoyed listening to this very competent interview. Thanks a lot! This was interesting for me even though I am a semi fat middelaged biker. You added knowledge to my training philosophy. I am not as structured as you so if I go long and slow or hard, or playing vith various speed , those choices are often based on how I feel and what I like. If I want to go hard one day, I feel powerful. Next day I dont have that much power and cruises with far less effort. I am not training for victories, but only wants to get a bit more fit.

[@jongoerke8983]

Really, really good. I’ve been doing structured training since 1995… still going , although now it’s not so much about gains, but lessening the losses at 66 and my power curve drops each year 😢🤪

[@jimsjacob]

@jongoerke8983 I feel your pain! 64 now and fighting the big C, but as always in my life, riding is healing and I'm doing well. , 👍.

[@Northwindbreeze]

Well but at least you guys have something to cry about 😂 at 48 and two kids in the kindergarten and school, staying out virus seems impossible and I get every year to keep a FTP of 210-240 then c omes winter and viruses, throwing me back at 200 ish. So disappointing.

[@dusty_hoods]

Your covers and titles for video are often misleading. But the content is good 👌 thank you 🙏🏻 So I click and watch for some time to see if it's interesting for me. This time I just saw Dr. Seiler's face and that's enough to watch 😊

[@aznick102]

When Seiler speaks I listen.

[@rickguerrero2282]

Very insightful re: signs of overtraining being a LOWER heart rate for a given power output. I just had this happen to me a month ago. And I internet-rented the lower HR as a positive adaptation, not a negative one. I am on a plan from a coaching system that will remain nameless, except to say the the training is supposed to be regarding “peaks”. The master’s plan calls for lots of Zone 3 because of limited training time. I questioned this approach because it goes against much of the training concepts that are widely discussed now. I almost ditched the plan midway through, but I decided to stick with it since I paid for the plan. I stuck with it once VO2 max work came into the mix. I am in the final few weeks of the plan I purchased so I will stick it out until the end. And I will evaluate the 2nd plan I bought from them for summer to see if it is more Zone 3 centric. If so, I will probably just look for good workouts in it….. ut ditch the Zone 3 focus.

[@freddierodriguez1973]

Can’t wait for the chat about the next wave of performance. In my opinion the realization of what was good came long before we started getting data. It came from self discovery and data is now there to help us confirm it. From the perspective of winning races we need to help riders develop race logic through global cycling habits that are happening in situations of decision-making in the game of cycling.

[@rothaicc]

Fantastic content my man. This was the hardest part of structured training for me to get used to - not klilling myself on each and every session every day

[@philadams9254]

Wake up babe, new Seiler podcast dropped 😍

[@sarahegan4723]

not just me so!

[@ToddWilsted-en1ki]

BRILLIANTLY SIMPLE!

[@cjcrawford1958]

What's old is new. Going back in my time machine 35 years ago what do we find: LSD long slow distance training and using HR as a training guide rather than power. I like it. Cheap and easy.

[@timcarnes3467]

Man, Dr Seiler is so good at using common language to convey some pretty techincal ideas.

[@clippingin1593]

Great stuff. Packed with info & concepts. I like the emphasis on psychology, well-being, and his "stress bucket". Interpreting his daughter's turn of phrase when tired and finding new ways of doing the same type of session was a real throwback to the in-person coaching greats - Cerutty, Lydiard, Igloi et al.

[@3TZZZ]

The shift to focussing on power over heart rate as the training measurement, is caused by two things. 1. power meters becoming common. 2. The focus on elite athlete performance. Most of us are not elite athletes (even if we once were LOL). Heart rate is more important as a measure the older we get. The majority of cyclists are over 35 years old (ie not or no longer elite). The range of HR between zone 2 and zone 4 shrinks with every year, as max heart rate reduces. Power figures become irrelevant when your zone 2 is 110-130bpm, and your max HR is only 160bpm. Staying below 130bpm is simply slow riding and power figures are irrelevant.

[@yellowquantum4240]

I raced in USA from 10-26 yrs Crit. If you are not getting paid as a pro you are just a recreational rider and that's a okay!! I ride 3 x week old dude nothing on bike got rid of all computers etc. Just me in the road and clouds ⛅️...❤❤❤❤

[@sarahannegan4605]

This is a brilliant breakdown of periodisation 🙂

[@FIREblade2704]

Thanks for an engaging and interesting chat. Lots of nuggets there to feast on

[@bg147]

LOL. When I was in college, we had a mainframe.

[@zikaperic2133]

some of the best comments i heard about endurance.. good job !

[@PerryScanlon]

Cardiac drift is a way to increase mitochondria of Type IIa fibers. Some of us have a lot of them to train. Dudley 1982 rat study shows fiber specific adaptations do vary with intensity. ( relative VO2 has an error from extrapolation and biomechanics)

[@johntrumbull2910]

Very interesting. Thx. I wish I knew these things a few years ago. I actually developed Afib from, what I believe, was over training. Also I am a 200 lbs cyclist which, I heard (GCN) , increases the likelihood of developing Afib. One big misconception I had, and still have not really figured out, is stress is stress. I operated under the idea that a hard ride would mitigate the stress that came my way from life. Rest wasn’t the solution. It’s crazy that we spend all day and night in these bodies and are often at a loss. Thx again

[@MTNMAX88]

Really awesome podcast and interview. It was super interesting and I really enjoyed every minute of it

[@jeremyleake6868]

Great interview, thanks. Always interesting listening to Stephen Seiler.

[@philhorne3293]

What a great conversation. Very informative for those of us that are Challenged finding time for getting on the bike.

[@geofftaylor9796]

This was a great interview. With great questions and insight. Thanks.

[@User85306]

Stephen Seiler is awesome. Precise and symplifying without „falsification“. Love to listen and learn from him!🫵🏼😎👍🏼

[@jt.8144]

Thank You so much for this episode!!

[@User85306]

Powerequivalent HR Drop (vagus overshoot) is for me one of the best signs for fatigue. Better then low HRV (it doesn‘t always correlate)

[@VendetaBrown]

Anthony 110hr at over 200w for a few hours… Jesus I’m out of shape. I’m 110hr getting dressed, 130hr with any effort whatsoever.

[@topcat304]

In terms of training cycles/ periods- speed skating national team programs in the 70's and 80's was a 10 day microcycle ( 3 per month). So for example, weight training was done 3x per cycle. Now image over time using a 7 day cycle and weight training 3x per week, how much less time to adapt and fit in other types of training.

[@uclaalum88]

Wow, I really enjoyed this podcast. Great stuff. I do wonder what the extreme push for sugars / carbs might be on pre-diabetes and/or diabetes decades later as we all age (and that’s when the Type 2 Diabetes get to be a legit concern for too many of us).

[@markwright5969]

Superb episode. Lots of great information. Thanks to you both.

[@michaelpayne8337]

MAF Method. Phil Maffetone….Mark Allen’s training guy. This stuff was around for years, backed by science and clinical testing, and the whole training community thought the guy was a crackpot. But he was correct. Now we hear from the folks following after this ground breaking guy as if this is something new. It’s more just widespread acceptance of something too wild to consider being true at the time.

[@kineticvelo5523]

Fantastic interview , 👌 Many newcomers to the sport especially those that start in their 40’s and perhaps coming from a successful business/work career carry that enthusiasm in to their new sport maybe a dash of ego too … Fast burn then boom injury’s or burnout , slow burn is best understand the basics and practice the process with passion and you’ll reap the rewards. Will add there are a rare few that can handle high load training from the beginning and adapt quick but see many more burn out chasing these rare beasts 😂

[@curtbentley]

This was excellent. Really appreciate it.

[@LordTangWu]

Valuable content 💪

[@joshceo1270]

That was fantastic, thank you!

[@SupercarAlex150]

New episode 🔥🔥🔥

[@swites]

Funny I did a hard race simulation the other week and once I'd finished all the hills after ~3hrs there was a flat bit to the finish. I hadn't bonked, but my legs were so full of lactate it was an absolute maximal effort to stay above 200w's for the last 10minutes! Which is usually my comfortable Z2 level.

[@ApaX1981]

What is the underlying cause of heartrate drift? Is the oxygen uptake also going up?

[@patnoonan8874]

Excellent podcast 👍

[@timcarnes3467]

Dude, Dr Seiler is part clinical psycologist, and full on clinical physiologist!

[@martincburns]

How you determine if HR is low because of overtraining / fatigue or adaptation / FTP improvements?

[@SuperKettMan]

Good question, and it's one that I myself have struggled to answer. After a couple of years of trying to find an answer using metrics, I have found the best way is to trust how I feel and my own rating of perceived exertion. Low HR for a given power when RPE matches the HR (that is, it seems low), means I am fitter. Low HR for a given power where my RPE feels high, means I am cooked.

[@anthonysears871]

Actually, social media has created so much noise it's counter productive! People are just all talk! Sorry but true!

[@alistairoswin7787]

That 90 minute block at 300+W sounds like a killer...

[@adamgurule1458]

Ride fast get faster

[@WesCineLab]

Roadman time 🕰️ ❤

[@MrPeperoni79]

The "easiest session" with a "high mental load" I know is "Funeral in Carpathia" in Xert.

[@ישראלשורץ-י2ק]

Like and comment before watching.

[@Gozzilah]

Bro took no time to let it rip

[@JamesBoz]

Take away : It's not a massage gun it is in fact a massage PISTOL!🔫 Just joshing, really informative guest👍

[@jt.8144]

900th VOTE UP. It all begins with "Habit". Simple. follow it. Be Consistent. Forget the results and the PRs. Just Be Consistent.

[@s2pacific]

Just a new take on MAF really.

[@iancarson8614]

Hey Anto, Get Kollie Moore on. he's another great source of Knowledge

[@fhowland]

200 watts and 92 bpm? Holy crap

[@turtles4health]

Great info …. Some of which I haven’t heard Doc Seiler share before. Some constructive criticism for the interviewer - please stop interrupting your interviewee. Make a note of your question and introduce at the appropriate break.

[@zineelabidineghafiri4673]

Unfortunately doesn't work for me, partly I progressed in z2 but never beyond z4, so I did change policy, yes we need a good fit base and endurance but it doesn't mean you 'll progress with a great margin beyond z4.

[@ericlehman53]

If a cyclist trains 5 days a week, that means only 1 intensity session and 4 easy ones. It might work for base season, but that won't cut it for race season.

[@johnbienaszii7729]

....Didn't he work wit Dr Masbuse ....

[@CharlieSanders0216]

are you sure you didn't just interview your dad? brilliant podcast, loved it!!

[@Avianthro]

It seems to me that 80-20, "polarized training" is simply another way of saying that we need to be sure we are recovered before we do another session that puts us into overload (and that's for physiological strain, the time integral of stress). Those easy sessions in between the overload sessions (real training sessions) are really of questionable value if our overload sessions are in the ballpark of our planned event's strain and power envelope. Sure, an easy session can be an overload too if it lasts long enough, but do we need to be doing that, or shouldn't our overloads be in our event's envelope? 80-20 means Train (overload), Recover Repeat. That's all. Good ol' common sense but like all common sense it too often is thrown out the window by people getting a bit overenthusiastic and forgetting about recovery.

[@linesided]

No matter how many "experts" tout their "plans" remember that the only one worth a damn is the one that works for you. And guess what - the plan that worked for you last year might very well not work for you this year. The "plan" for you might need to be changed on the fly. It's meaningless to extrapolate training concepts from pro riders to casual riders and racers.

[@chrisbuggy4849]

Whole industries based around stuff that most of us pretend to care about then we go out for a curry and ride like kin idiots the next day and long may it continue.

[@utube7930]

Nice to cut through the bs once in a while

[@oldtwinsna8347]

Too much latency in the connections seem a common theme going on in all your interviews. Please invest in a better internet provider or enhanced package. It is annoying to see the big lags between your exchanges.

[@DDai-qd8uk]

why do you always look like your hands are handcuffed behind your back?

[@zaahierstanley955]

I am wondering if he is actually coaching top level athletes? Any pro tour athletes? Why are they complicating the training this much ? Keep it simple... Endurance plus efforts once or twice a week in some form of structure does it. When you want really more than 8 or 10 hrs a week of training then you probably need a coach with some more experience

[@BenAroundo]

This video is too long. You’re not helping anyone is he get tired of watching and stop learning this gonna be probably broken up into three videos that we can actually concentrate keep her attention and learn some thing that we can give it to the people that we coach. Explain slowly and in detail all the text technical stuff. But shorten this damn never ending video.

[@anthonysears871]

Easy. Eat well, rest and "f'n" pedal. Not rocket science!

[@danfox8819]

15:20 he states that low carb high fat protocol will damage your physiology and then in the next breath invokes evolution. News flash for all the listeners, humans did not eat a large amount of carbohydrate pre agriculture ie starting 8-10 thousand years ago. Stable isotope testing of human bone marrow proves this idea. In fact, before agriculture, it was a rare event when a human ate fat and carbohydrate at the same time. Stick to training methods and skip human nutrition and metabolic science please

[@nateso9390]

He’s speaking of athletes engaging in high intensity activities and seeking peak performance. No LCHF diet will get them there. Peak athleticism aside, you’re probably right.

[@danfox8819]

I race and do lots of high intensity vo2 max workouts and am full carnivore for over a year. My power curve for 2023 is pretty much identical to 2022 when I was eating 120g CHO/hr.(even slightly higher at a few durations). I'm not saying that you can do a grand tour on LCHF, but you can perform at the highest intensities without exogenous CHO. All the "studies" have been done are 2-4 weeks in duration and it takes 4-6 months to fully adapt to the body upregulating for efficient fat oxidization.I wish I knew about this when I was racing back in 1991. @@nateso9390

[@Foxtrottangoabc]

News flash , humans did eat alot of carbohydrates before farming became common . All indigenous tribes eat a high amount of carbs , they eat lots of tubers , grains and nuts .Australian Aborigines even though not farmers had a very sophisticated agroforestry setup , along with man made waterhole. They farmed nuts tubers and made their own bread from grains . Humans eat what resources are available at the time where ever they live . Farming developed because hunter gathers were already eating grains , fruit vegetables

[@starlitshadows]

​@@Foxtrottangoabcyeah, you are correct. Tribes that tend to be cut off from civilization do tend to eat a lot of carbs. I watched something on this several months back. They also do tons of walking everyday as well.

[@danfox8819]

@@Foxtrottangoabc you should go back and read the words I wrote. I specifically said that humans did not eat a lot of carbohydrates compared to the point at which agriculture became the paradigm shift or Homosapien. For the vast majority of the 350,000 years we have been, Homosapien sapiens, we ate very little carbohydrate, and the carbohydrate that we ate, as you stated, were very fibrous non-starchy, tubers and fruits that look absolutely nothing like the fruits and vegetables we have selectively bred over the last 10,000 years. Look at the actual science of stable isotope testing of human bone marrow pre 10,000 years ago you will find that humans did indeed eat a diet of mainly fat and protein. And that is how we evolved our DNA. And now look at us, our diets have changed even more towards ultra refined, processed carbohydrates, which are completely contraindicated for our metabolic health, and we layer this new way of eating onto the construct of athletic performance and we wonder why we get sick. Glycation and inflammation are real and they are caused by elevated blood glucose via exogenous carbohydrate. Meanwhile, we have exercise physiologist that are recommending massive amounts of carbohydrates in order to boost, athletic performance, and most of these people could not give you the actual definition of a calorie, how the PCR works, or what the Randall cycle is like I said, it would probably be very difficult to ride the grand Tours without carbohydrates but this does not mean that you cannot compete at a high level as an amateur cyclist.

[@gweflj]

The F1 analogy is junk.