ACC vs Florida State & Clemson: Major Updates with Special Guest Attorney David McKenzie.

[@menemenetekelupharsin3007]

David is the only one on KZbin who gives very logical insights into this whole mess. When it got all started, my initial thoughts on this have always been that FSU and Clemson signed the GOR. So now, all of a sudden, just because they don't think they got paid as much as teams in the BIG and SEC, FSU and Clemson believe that they have ample reasons, excuses, and rights to sue the ACC? You mean to tell me that when FSU signed the GOR, they had zero idea what they were agreeing to? Regardless of whether FSU is underpaid or not, they can't just throw a fit and walk away simply because they don't like what's happening right now with the ACC. Why sign any contracts, then? Signing one means absolutely nothing. Lastly, I am a tad surprised at how pompous and hubristic FSU fanboys are behaving in this matter. "Oh, yeah, we are a perfect match for the BIG. SEC is not exactly what we desire. We are way better than joining a subpar conference." You can't make this crap up. Really.

[@talkingcfbwithJJKitchen]

@@menemenetekelupharsin3007 couldnt agree more. David is truly the best. Thank you for this incredible comment.

[@McKenzieLaw]

Thank you.

[@genewatson4093]

I’m pretty sure you were not ready for the new information!! Phillips tried signing for all members with out permission!! He literally sold the conference membership out !!

[@menemenetekelupharsin3007]

@@genewatson4093 I see. So you are essentially saying none of the ACC ADs, especially FSU and Clemson, knew or even were aware of any of the allegedly new information that just came out prior to all the lawsuits. In other words, they have absolutely zero idea what they actually signed with both the ACC and ESPN. Or did they? If they did, then what does it say about these schools? Yeah, I want to have the cake and eat it too. Don't we all. "Oh... Oh... Oh... we have been duped. How unprofessional our ACC commissioner really is? We just trusted our commissioner. It's not like we knew exactly what we signed. I can't believe we were so naive, clueless, and incompetent. We are so, so, so innocent, you know. All we want is to be paid as much as BIG and SEC." Sorry to burst your bubbles. All I know is to grab the popcorn. However you want to slice and dice this, FSU is acting like a pompous, spoiled, entitled kid. Sometimes, we better be careful what we wish for, because we never know how it may come back to bite us in the rear. Lastly, there are lots of KZbin talking heads spreading all kinds of misinformation. Until the courts confirm any of the alleged misconducts, I won't get too excited about any of this. Then again, that's just me who never likes to just jump the gun on anything.

[@HOF-CFB]

Great stuff brother. You’re the man, JJ

[@talkingcfbwithJJKitchen]

Thanks brother! Good to get out real info and facts in this. Thankful for David to come one and go so in depth with this.

[@HOF-CFB]

@@talkingcfbwithJJKitchen he was great, man. Reality is hard to come by nowadays, and from all sources it seems …

[@LockedOnWestVirginia]

Thanks for the info, J.J. Good episode!

[@talkingcfbwithJJKitchen]

@@LockedOnWestVirginia thank you Paul!

[@dp26385]

Good interview. Thanks, JJ

[@talkingcfbwithJJKitchen]

@@dp26385 thank you sir. And thank you for the support as always. Good to get some legit info out here. I’ll have David back on for more updates in the future.

[@shawnandrews329]

The issue is with the grant of rights term and its relationship with the ESPN contract. There appears to be some language tying the two together. The ESPN contract ends in 2027 unless they exercise the option to extend. The question is whether schools could leave the conference if the ESPN contact ends in 2027 or are they bound until 2036 regarless of the media contact? If that is the case, then the ACC would negotiate a much smaller exit fee.

[@talkingcfbwithJJKitchen]

@@shawnandrews329 first, if it’s not extended they can leave at a lower cost, but as everyone knows especially Commissioner Jim Phillips is working on the “Look-in” with negotiations to allow the ACC to add teams to a full share when they join. It will be extended because the ACC Network makes them millions in profit.

[@mattlippiatt1273]

The espn contract has a clause saying members can leave and it's understood members can leave. The agreement is only to home games played while member of conference. The school is responsible to provide media access etc not the conference etc. If a school leaves it does not effect the acc in ability to perform its contractual obligations. The gor specificly states espn and the conference obligations.

[@markpaul1871]

I don't agree with the assertion that "they signed the agreement and took the money...case closed" because FSU was paid for services that FSU rendered. I do like to listen to other perspectives in an effort to be objective but this seemed to be a little self serving. On one hand, David is saying FSU is taking money and on the other, he's saying that if they don't play, they won't get paid and even referenced Christian Wilkins holding out. The ACC along with several member schools have exceedingly benefitted from FSU and Clemson's participation in the conference. The FSU snub proved that the perception of much of the country is that the ACC is an inferior conference and Phillips did nothing to combat that narrative. Now the ACC wants to have something to say. Where was all this fight when FSU was getting snubbed? The ACC is fighting because their cash cow wants out and bring the gravy train is coming to an end.

[@talkingcfbwithJJKitchen]

@@markpaul1871 numerous points in here I disagree about. David did a great job of showing all angles. More importantly, ACC is in court because FSU doesn’t want to pay. They are conference, they benefited, and they signed it…..twice. FSU wants to leave, it’s simple: Pay.

[@McKenzieLaw]

My sense is that you are conflating the issues and the points made. The part about taking the money and staying silent goes to key equitable defenses the ACC is going to have. Moreover, the alleged "snub" is legally irrelevant-- so is the ACC being an inferior conference. This is about the intent of the parties at the time of contract signing, and performance under the contract. The ACC has performed, and FSU has accepted the benefits of that performance without protest. That creates a big problem for FSU.

[@markpaul1871]

@@McKenzieLaw Hi David, I understand and perhaps I stand corrected with regard to conflating issues. Indeed you are correct that the "snub" is legally irrelevant but it provides some motivation to see this through in my humble opinion. I would also think that the performance under the contract is a big part of the problem. It appears that FSU is performing much better than the ACC. I'm reminded of NFL contracts that get evaluated all of the time for performance. Player doesn't perform well and team cuts him at a lesser cost. I know it's not apples to apples considering that the NFL is an association governed by arbitration to an extent. I'm open to learning more and I appreciate the different perspectives.

[@lorenzohaynes3886]

This was a good interview.

[@talkingcfbwithJJKitchen]

@@lorenzohaynes3886 thank you for the support!

[@talkingcfbwithJJKitchen]

David presenting a lot of good information here. A lot of it has been true so far! Not shocking.

[@samsnyder4433]

The ACC and ESPN are to blame

[@talkingcfbwithJJKitchen]

@@samsnyder4433 for what?

[@anthonysuarez8547]

Great show. Great guest. Best explanation of the controversy i have heard to date

[@talkingcfbwithJJKitchen]

@@anthonysuarez8547 thank you for the support! David is one of the best.

[@rs2024-s4u]

No other conference would ever be dumb enough to even whisper a desire to any of the litigants of a possible deal. The tortisous interference amounts/judgements pretentiously would bankrupt any league including the mighty SEC. ACC has no interest in destroying much of its value so talk/rumors of the ACC settling are almost certainly fiction or wishful thinking so the only way forward is to pay the ACC it's exit fees or wait until current agreement expires. Ray

[@talkingcfbwithJJKitchen]

@@rs2024-s4u couldn’t agree more Ray. ACC is in a strong position and no reason to settle for dissolve.

[@McKenzieLaw]

Thanks for having me on. I will try to respond to reasonable comments brought in good faith and with decency. It may take some time.

[@talkingcfbwithJJKitchen]

@@McKenzieLaw no problem and thank you again for coming on. I got plenty of great responses so far.

[@rickdeez09]

1. What is written in the agreement if a member is voted out of the ACC per the GOR? 2. We’ve heard nothing but the ACC retaining a members rights through 2036 in all scenarios. Hence my first question - If there is no explicit answer to question 1, how does a member ever retain their rights assuming the ACC is still intact? If a member properly files to exit and pay the exit fees, per the terms of the ESPN/ACC agreement, why does a conference retain those rights? What happens to the GOR if ESPN does not chose to execute the 2027 extension by Feb 2025?

[@EuroNole]

It is utterly absurd to say that FSU would have to pay the “hundreds of millions of dollars “ back. Pay it back? Why did FSU receive money in the first place? Did they not perform services for which they were paid? If they did the work and were paid for that work, what would there be to pay back? If you worked for a company for ten years and then found a better job and served notice, would you have to pay back every dollar you earned for the ten years before you could leave? Why not?

[@McKenzieLaw]

First, let’s clarify: FSU received substantial payments under the GOR because it agreed to specific terms and conditions, which included granting its media rights to the ACC. This arrangement is akin to any long-term contract where benefits are exchanged for commitments. Over the years, FSU has received hundreds of millions of dollars from the ACC based on this agreement. The irony lies in FSU’s current stance, which ignores the fundamental principle of equitable estoppel and waiver. Equitable estoppel prevents a party from asserting a claim or a right that contradicts what it previously stated or agreed to by its actions. FSU has benefited from the ACC’s payments under the GOR without protest for years. It cannot now turn around and claim that the same agreement is invalid or unfair without addressing the fact that it willingly accepted those benefits. This is not just about performing services but about adhering to a mutually agreed-upon contract that has been consistently honored by both parties. Moreover, the analogy of working for a company for ten years and then finding a better job does not hold in this context. Leaving a job does not involve attempting to nullify the entire employment contract retroactively-- and an employment contract is one of the worst analogies to an intellectual property license that I can think of. FSU’s position implies it wants to exit the GOR while retaining all the benefits it received under it, without compensating the ACC for the loss of rights and the financial arrangements predicated on those rights. My suggestion about FSU repaying the money it received under the GOR was chiefly to show the waiver/estoppel and inconsistency in its argument. If FSU genuinely believed the GOR was unconscionable or violative of antitrust laws from the beginning, it should not have accepted the benefits without raising objections. To put it plainly, you can’t have your cake and eat it too. If FSU could repay the funds, it might make a colorable argument that it hasn’t waived its right to contest the GOR. However, FSU cannot realistically repay these amounts, highlighting the impracticality and hypocrisy of its position. Bottom line is that FSU’s acceptance of the ACC’s performance and benefits under the GOR for years without protest nukes its current claims. Equitable principles, including waiver and estoppel, are likely to resolve this dispute before any substantive examination of the GOR’s alleged unconscionability or antitrust implications. The idea of repayment underscores the lack of merit in FSU’s attempt to disregard the binding nature of a contract from which it has significantly benefited.

[@genewatson4093]

@@EuroNole exactly!!

[@noles9998]

@@McKenzieLawyou are stretching here 😂😂😂

[@noles9998]

@@McKenzieLawyou can continue to work and receive benefits from your job, while simultaneously been greatly underpaid.

[@talkingcfbwithJJKitchen]

@@McKenzieLaw exactly. Thank you David.

[@samsnyder4433]

More importantly 😮

[@Joe-sm9qj]

I still think the big 12 and acc should stay put, but split revenue. This way we, together, get four auto bids to the playoff, and half the basketball revenue. Just have a side-agreement to divvy up all revenues.

[@LEE_65]

You and David are fooling yourself if you think that the ACC wont negotiate a buyout. These two schools will get out and will pay no more then 300 million and if i was a betting man i would bet they get out for less then 200 million

[@talkingcfbwithJJKitchen]

@@LEE_65 from everything you heard, from a legal expert…….really? Ok. 😂👍🏼

[@McKenzieLaw]

Thanks. Reasonable mind can differ. I don't think anyone knows what the full value of an exit would be, but there are separate contractual elements at play. One is a raw exit fee, one is broadcast fees, and the final and most valuable is the value of the copyrights. FSU itself has valued an exit at 572 and 700 million in recent pleadings.

[@talkingcfbwithJJKitchen]

@@McKenzieLaw Amen.

[@terryrich4889]

ACC just needs to foucs in football winning. Were in a day and age where football is the money maker. Hell with fs and Clemson, they should go independent an see their true value. Tired of hearing about them carrying the ACC. Both schools are broke with low endowments, fs less than a billion dollars and Clemson barley a billion. Carolina, Duke, Virginia, Stanford and Cal all have 6 or more billion in their endowments. ACC don't need to break up they just need to win football.

[@talkingcfbwithJJKitchen]

@@terryrich4889 couldn’t agree more. That’s one thing I’ve been very happy with the ACC the past 3 years. Major money, (millions) being invested into football.

[@genewatson4093]

I don’t know how I found the but it won’t age well! You have 2 Homers with Capital H’s. Acc is a JV football league w/o Clemson and FSU. Get ready

[@talkingcfbwithJJKitchen]

@@genewatson4093 everything was based on actual legal analysis and certainly with legal expertise. Sounds like someone doesn’t like the truth.

[@genewatson4093]

@@talkingcfbwithJJKitchen We shall see!! Legal opinions are like A-Holes!!

[@talkingcfbwithJJKitchen]

@@genewatson4093 a lot like yours I guess from what you are saying lol

[@menemenetekelupharsin3007]

@@talkingcfbwithJJKitchen FSU wants to get the much coveted AAU status. To be honest, I am not impressed at all with what FSU is able to produce in the classrooms. That's just my personal observation and opinions.

[@sherlundlucke7566]

Another great job JJ! As Dave McKenzie said: The law is the law. They took the money. They signed a contract. Nothing more to see here. Screw FSU and Clemson for trying to destroy the ACC out of GREED!

[@talkingcfbwithJJKitchen]

@@sherlundlucke7566 couldn’t agree more. All facts. Thank you for the support my friend!

[@tomsmithdeal8286]

Took what money? Where did the ACC get the money? Did any of the member schools perform any services (work) to earn that money? Did every school contribute to earn that money? Was the value of the work done by some schools worth more than the work done by other conference members? In fact, wasn’t the work performed by two schools 40% of the value of the entire conference? Weren’t those schools merely paid for the work performed at around fifty cents on the dollar? The reality is that those two schools were the benefactors and the ACC the beneficiary. If you lose 40% of the value of the conference, why would ESPN renew? That’s the real reason that the ACC is fighting so hard. Hasn’t got a thing to do with ethics or anything, just money. Tell me again who the greedy one is?

[@talkingcfbwithJJKitchen]

@@tomsmithdeal8286 you totally missed so much on this i don’t even know where to start lol.

[@tedharris8244]

LMAO at ya'lls BS. The ACC will fall and fall hard. You all just keep dreaming but the ACC is toast!!!

[@talkingcfbwithJJKitchen]

@@tedharris8244 truth and information we have now hurt your feelings that bad? Lol

[@EthanCohen-r2p]

Not as awful as I thought he was and he was kindof funny but still arrogant about his opinions There is no way that it is astronumerical as he said. He's probably worried about Duke playing Valdosta State or Furman but he is smart but short shighted

[@talkingcfbwithJJKitchen]

@@EthanCohen-r2p idk about that. 25 Years of law says otherwise. Very factual as well.

[@McKenzieLaw]

Thanks. Not trying to be arrogant or even funny (I'll take it). I do think that the exit for FSU and Clemson will be substantial, if not astronomical, and I don't see how either get out of the league without satisfying their obligations under the contract or the copyright license, if that makes sense. I realize it may not. But I am grateful for your response. (BTW, I love Furman . . . Go Purple Paladins . . . Grew up in Clemson.) If you want me to address something specific, please say so. Again, thanks for your input.

[@davidfloyd9134]

Pitt needs to focus on getting a Big12 invite

[@talkingcfbwithJJKitchen]

@@davidfloyd9134 not at all at this point. Especially with what was talked about, especially legally. I’m not sure you followed the conversation and legal expertise at all.

[@willieworkman9616]

Keep thinking that fsu and Clemson are out of the ACC

[@talkingcfbwithJJKitchen]

@@willieworkman9616 never said they weren’t. When they pay I’ll buy it.

[@kingbaldwiniv5409]

"Change in market conditions" doesn't void a contract. That was great and absolutely true! If the ACC/ESPN contract was such a big nothing burger, then why did the two of them try so hard to ensure it couldn't be seen? I know Clemson recently hard-passed on a Friday game arrangement with South Carolina offered by ESPN. I am way more suspicious of ESPN shenanigans I think than you gentlemen. I've had friends work in Bristol for ESPN and they had a lot to say negatively about ESPN's contract integrity. That true, if you're forcing schools to stay in a conference who otherwise don't want to be, you're dead already. Almost half of the schools were willing to leave the conference last year, which would have ended the conference. ESPN is not loyal to anybody and they will be more than happy to sell out the ACC if they can move towards a 2 super-conference. I don't want a 2 Super-conferences scenario, but the ACC and Big XII are fighting for their lives here. The ACC had better wake up and aggressively try and stay alive. I think they are being out maneuvered because of their long grant of rights duration.

[@willieworkman9616]

@talkingcfbwithJJKitchen I really think they got that money to leave in any scenario because ESPN can easily say we aren't renewing the contract for 25, and either way, it's over . This gone be just like Maryland leaving pay 25 million to 80 million and call it a day .