Across the Spider-Verse was made with abuse

The article that broke this story can be found here: www.vulture.com/2023/06/spide...
Amy Pascal quotes read by ‪@Princess_Weekes‬
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[@CouncilofGeeks]

Minor Update: Beyond the Spider-Verse has been delayed indefinitely. Now, this is an objectively good thing, especially that it doesn't have a new date right off because that would indicate that as much time as needed will be taken. However, it is a little disheartening that the reason for the delay is not consideration of workers, but due to the WGA and SAG-AFTRA strikes. That doesn't preclude this from being used as an opportunity to better streamline the process so that it won't require 77+ hour work weeks, I really would have preferred if the delay would have been announced pre-strike. Because right now it only feels like the animators are being given a reprieve by outside forces rather than because any of the executives or producers actually care.

[@IceNixie0102]

One year later (having FINALLY watched the movie) it still doesn't have a release date. Current rumours are leaning toward Oct 2025?

[@auditect950]

Saying "Who cares if their workers had unreasonable working conditions? They got paid and they could quit anytime!" is like saying "Who cares if he beats his girlfriend? He pays her bills and she can break up with him anytime."

[@unseenmolee]

fr, thats actually a good comparison 🙃 capitalism is like my abusive ex who wont leave me alone no matter how many times i move away or change my phone number

[@FunFilmFare]

And if they're poor then no they can't quit anytime

[@butter9713]

@Reni-kit they are emotionally attached to their work, they are artists before they were workers. They’ve went to animation school and got a certificate or something, they have worked to do this for a long part of their life. They are working for a big ass label on a big ass project, the least the label could do is to have humane working conditions, because they totally have the money to do so

[@mere2394]

I think the “suffer for your art” cliche needs to be put to bed for good. Workers rights for all artists in all industries.

[@WolfBoy-om6dw]

Amen

[@nailinthefashion]

Imo artists should be the rich ones not CEOs who profit off of them, idk how we got here or why lol

[@WolfBoy-om6dw]

@@nailinthefashion I couldn't agree more

[@Ouchimoo]

It's why after I graduated from Animation Mentor I basically noped out of my longed after career in animation. All the mentors basically were like Yeaaah you have to love the art because they basically just abuse the f out of you. Great.

[@zwowens5741]

preach!

[@clickymcclick7924]

You 👏move 👏 the 👏release date 👏 back . YES. These fans are LOYAL. We will WAIT! Give your animators reasonable conditions and hours!!!

[@amandalewin2872]

Its not made for the fans, its made for the shareholders.

[@TimothyCollins]

Bingo. I mean, there was no external reason I know of that absolutely required a specific release date for this movie. They could have moved it back 6 months or a year o accommodate for everything. Sony isn't hurting for money right now, this movie isn't in the MCU where it HAS to be released at a specific time and it was gonna be a hit whether it was released in spring 2023 or winter 2023 or spring 2024.

[@Yickerd]

I was so excited to hear the March 29th date, its on my birthday and it’s so soon, I was soooo excited but the second I heard about what was going on it was no question that they need to delay it HOWEVER LONG it takes to allow the animators, or anyone working on the project, to be able to make the movie with a healthy amount of time off. There is no way to validate the way the animators were treated and they need to push the movie back, I don’t care if it’s pushed back 5 years it might have to be.

[@nailinthefashion]

​​@@amandalewin2872ovies being made for profit instead of to tell a story is getting so obvious and absurd, Moana is about to spark a whole new era of haute garbash

[@foxesofautumn]

@@amandalewin2872 True but, if people don't go and see it, the shareholders don't get their bikkies.

[@Vesperitis]

Suddenly the line “It’s a metaphor for capitalism” isn’t so funny anymore.

[@nguyenhoangnam8609]

The whole Spider Society might as well be an analogue for what the crew was going through to be honest!

[@matt0044]

Many movies bite the hand that feeds them. Studios let them because it’s not like they’ll do anything. Or so they think.

[@sarahts21]

I figured it was funny "Hmmm" rather than funny "hehe" because ya know it is a ever expanding void of nothing that sucks up everything bright and happy in the world... pretty good metaphor for capitalism ain't it?

[@johannageisel5390]

Capitalism coopts everything, including anticapitalism.

[@okami425]

It's not really capitalism imo, sounds like hmmm idk bad people. Sounds like the boss lady's mindset was this just another movie and not the mindset of an this an animated movie and it's different. Probably wouldn't been so bad had they just been redoing takes but from what I gather animation doesn't work that way. You don't just get to constantly tweak and reshoot to get it perfect. It has to be done before final animation basically. When they raised complaints she just acted like they were being absurd. As if their complaining for doing what was expected, when in an animation movie that isn't what's expected. I'd call her an ass in my head probably and go confront her about it. From the sounds of it probably fired as well. Like what stops something like this from happening under any other form of system? You can't stop bad people from existing and bad people from obtaining power. It happens in any format of government or power. I wish they'd be fairly compensated for their work and some form idk closer? She gets some consequences for being an awful boss and not caring enough about her coworkers complaints and working conditions.

[@wagerobot5231]

Spiderverse was amazing. Imagine how much better it would have been if the workers weren't working 77 hours a week.

[@tommarsdon5644]

they are simply stating that more time would mean better quality, how does that imply that worse conditions justify exploitation?

[@Sky-bx9mn]

@@tommarsdon5644 Either you accidentally replied to a different comment than intended, or you didn't understand the comment you're replying to.

[@tommarsdon5644]

@@Sky-bx9mn I was replying to someone who has deleted their comment

[@za-ir5ni]

I mean, Pixar has pretty good conditions for their animators, and their movies lately have been lacking. It was Lord and Miller being perfectionist that both caused the film to be as good as it is and why the animators were overworked.

[@mirlinsnooze1705]

Pixel movies are not bad because of the working conditions it’s because they’ve been losing more and more creative freedom for years. They could’ve made the same film with good working conditions. It would just take longer and the fact that they had made completed shot that were deleted in order for that to happen they have to approve an animatic of that scene and since they were rushing instead of pushing back the release date, they just approved it which just lead to work and time being lost when they decided oh we don’t like this anymore because they didn’t put the time into preproduction.

[@tropicata]

There's absolutely no reason Part 2 needs to be out in less than a year. We had an almost 5 year gap between this movie and the previous one, we can wait however long is necessary for Beyond to finish production at a labor pace that's reasonable for the artists and staff involved.

[@Roxie_ET]

YES!

[@smoky7451]

At first I thought it was because they animated both movies at the same time, but no. I'm pretty sure the movie already has been pushed back a year or two, which is good, because it juste wouldn't have been physically possible to finish on time

[@mmegukori]

​@@marcosloldeli agree with this one

[@zer0luv]

Completely agree, it's not like the actors will age out of the roles. There's literally no reason to rush it.

[@emcrolls]

this isn't "just" abuse,. It's exploitation.Crunch/hustle culture like this is compounded by the prevailing myth that. creative, technical, emotional or other intangible labor isn't seen as 'hard'/punishing labor. "all you have to do is sit in front of the computer" . Any technical effort is very much work & taxing. Anything that requires full/primary brain usage is actual labor for both mind & body. There is no such thing as cheap labor.

[@Stephen-Fox]

For an illustration of how much of a myth that is - And I say this not to diminish the toll of 77 work weeks even if this specific thing hasn't been reported to have happened in this case - some video game studios have reported people leaving projects due to... I think the term used in the reports as a quote from the sources for the report was 'stress casualties' - a term which, IIRC, is usually reserved for military personnel who are discharged due to battlefield stress. ...Plus, you know, IIRC there were reports of animators for I forget if it was MK10 or MK11 getting PTSD due to a combination of crunch and the research necessary for animating the fatalities in that more realistic art style compared to the older MK games. Nothing against violence or sex in media, just... Not if it's hurting the people making the media. (Plus, you know, the fundamental stuff - The human body didn't really evolve to sit for prolonged periods, typing requires fairly unnatural movements hence RSI being such a common thing, and so forth)

[@stvltiloqvent]

Also: art *_is_* hard labour. Lots of artists get carpal tunnel or other hand injuries because of the strain on their fingers and wrists.

[@emcrolls]

@@stvltiloqvent absolutely

[@HonoredMule]

@@stvltiloqvent Technically true but a poor vehicle for making the point. As a programmer I can attest that _mental_ labor is hard labor and doing it for a long time under pressure breaks brains and sometimes leaves them so broken they never fully recover. Next to that my RSI and all other physical ailments combined are utterly trivial.

[@LinnaAP]

"They can just walk away" is an ideal excuse at the moment, until everybody has housing and food guaranteed without having to have a job in order to have it, they, actually, can't "just walk away" from a job just like that.

[@asiabrew81]

Also animators get work based on, among other things, how they got along on their last production. Also, if you work 2,3 years on a project and leave before it's done, your work may get scrapped and you wasted 2,3 years of work and have nothing to show for it, nothing you can show. They got you by the balls.

[@Elwaves2925]

To my mind, the only people that say "they can just walk away" are either in some form of education and haven't entered the world of work yet, or are sitting comfortably in a job that gives them the life they want, or something similar. They are ignorant (or just don't care) that it isn't like that for others and while walking away is always an option, it's doesn't mean it's a good or viable option.

[@Vesperitis]

3 of the 5 years this movie was being made was during the pandemic, so anyone on the project with any sense couldn't very rightly 'walk away' from a paying gig and work somewhere else.

[@GamerWho]

With that excuse, where does one "walk away" to? It's a systemic problem in the industry, generally

[@KatsyKat]

Especially when if someone does replace them and has so much to catch up on with so little time, they’re gonna get talked down upon alot by the animation supervisors even when they’ve tried their best.

[@chaoscryptid4092]

As someone who worked on the film and is a former employee of the studio, thanks for this. The solidarity helps and I truly hope we can move the industry towards a future where we take care of crew and artists. Where burnout isn't considered the norm. VFX work (which Imageworks also does and is its own kettle of fish) is also trying to unionize but it's an uphill battle. Supporting labour movements makes things better for everyone!

[@margoalex.]

Sending all my love to you and your coworkers because you all deserved better. And please let me just say thank you for this beautiful movie. I truly haven’t seen a film that’s meant this much to me in a while and I don’t know if I can express enough gratitude for you all. And I’m so so so sorry that these are the conditions you all had to make this in. It really breaks my heart to know that something I love was made off of the pain of the animators. Still, I’ll be here rooting for you anyway like I would root for Miles. Animators deserve more than the bare minimum for everything they do.

[@chaoscryptid4092]

@@SirMaddaMMetzo Much appreciated. I think amplifying artist/crew voices is incredibly helpful -- too often in film/series and so on the focus is on the idea of an "auteur". So Lord and Miller or the big execs can get interview time no problem and not have to be anonymous unlike artists fearing for their livelihoods. Things like Vera's video, sharing the artist interviews, making that information known to those who maybe don't engage with media analysis or discussion is huge to getting our side heard. It's easy to forget the vast number of people who work on these projects but the collaborative element really is the beauty of them.

[@acutelilmint8035]

The biggest issue is the audience just want to consume. Until people say no until thing improve, they can just consume abuse like in anime n gaming.

[@omorinintendoswitchedition]

sending love and support to you and everyone who had to suffer to make this movie. its a fantastic film but nothing is more important than the health of the workers

[@Jonathanest90s]

We are here for you. Hopefully the whole studio will get unionized.

[@jamesbarr8218]

The shame is that the quality of the film will be used as an argument in favor of abuse and exploitation as being not just acceptable but preferable

[@bevinbrand4637]

Or that the conditions the film was made under justify not taking risks in animation or pushing to make anything outside the formulaic cookie-cutter animated fare. Either option sucks.

[@araquen6360]

The standard when I was young was 40 hours a week. Society did fine on 40 hours a week. OT was meant to be a “disaster recovery” mode, and you got paid Time-and-a-Half. You also got paid differentials for overnight and weekend hours. This was industry STANDARD. Oh, and for many, these were “professional hours” meaning you got paid for lunch, so you were paid 40 hours for 37.5 hours of actual work, salaried people were paid MORE to compensate for the lack of OT, and hourly got guaranteed 1/2 hour lunch and 2 15 minute breaks. The younger generations need to fight for the return of sane work weeks, though I am a fan of 4 day work weeks...so I’m not saying to try to roll back to “my days” but rather frame your needs based on the fact that the current “work 900 hours a day for pennies” is hot garbage.

[@Stephen-Fox]

Though, that division of labour that results in the 40 hour week (8 hours work, 8 hours rest, 8 hours sleep, 5 days a week) counts commute time as part of the work side of the equation. Plus while Vera mentioned studies showing , IIRC diminishing returns of output compared to input starts at about 30 hours based on studies - Even ignoring the human cost, if you need 60 hours of work, you're better off hiring two people. If you need 40 hours work, there might be an argument for hiring one but you're probably still better off with two people.

[@FabbrizioPlays]

With the amount of labor that has been displaced by automation in the time since then, the average work week should now be 20 hours if we could just take a flamethrower to wall street. The amount of labor-necessary-to-sustain-humanity per capita should be constantly dropping, and yet for some reason, we still have to hear stories like this one and have them not even be rare.

[@mihailoveselinovic7151]

​@@FabbrizioPlaysIts because we arent sustaining humanity. We're sistaining the 1% at the cost of the world health and basic human rights

[@loethefox6938]

@@FabbrizioPlays Hmm... I had to read through Animal Farm last year and I'm noticing some similarities lol.

[@sortascouseace]

Ironic that a film that features a open anarchist punk rocker spiderman as a main character, has problems with systemic crunch in its development, maybe hobie is a cry for help😢

[@JoyHatcher]

The Writer Guild of America is still on strike, let's hope they can get something to address this kind of abuse.

[@davidbjacobs3598]

Unfortunately, no those guilds don't overlap at all, and the writers have their own problems to deal with. Also, it's technically illegal to strike "in solidarity," which is just so much poop. Animators need a strong union that will prevent any sort of loopholes from hiring non-union workers. In live-action, we're all independent contractors but are still unionized. If a film budget is 1.5M or higher, it's union, and if a production tries to get away with making it non-union, the union will chase them down and make them flip (to the point where I've seen productions flip seamlessly because they literally budgeted for the possibility of the union chasing them down, which is absurd really). Of course, VFX workers in live-action still put up with similar poop as animation workers (not my field so I can't talk specifics confidently). And many many movies will just outsource overseas -- we should be restricting that as well, although at that point we may need the government to get involved? I'm not sure if it's possible for American unions to invite overseas members doing remote work, but if so then that would be ideal. Remove all loopholes.

[@GeoffroiRidel]

@@davidbjacobs3598 Yes, it won't help. Different issues, different jobs. If anything this strike is unfortunately hurting VFX artists tremendously at the moment.

[@born_creating2487]

⁠@@GeoffroiRidelHow so? This is my first time learning more about the VFX unions. I don’t hear about them often in Movie essays.

[@christinewalker7242]

@@born_creating2487It would be creating lag in work, meaning less artists will be hired as less projects are going into production. I know as I am in the sound department for film and television, and at the moment, there is little work and that will be the case until a month or two after the strike ends and things go from pre-production to production.

[@mahogara]

Thing is entertainment industry as its whole don't respect animation, animators and artists that work BTS in general much/or not at all. If they are treating writers whom they at least view as a necessity (to a certain degree) very poorly, there is not much hope for animation artists.

[@dashafurrow7456]

I hate hate hate this ends justify the means mentality in the film industry. I just finished a screenwriting course where I told my professor that I was struggling to keep up with the pace of the work because the dark subject matter of the work became a strain on my mental health. My work then was really good and she told me that I was “special” because of my depression and that the pain helped me “tap into some emotional truth” that the others in the class did not have. Then she upped the weekly page count from 30 pages to 70 and my work stopped being good because I was being stretched too thin, and I had a panic attack in class. She told me what did I expect when I signed up for the course. That’s what making a movie takes after all. Suffering does not create good art. That is also literally the theme of Across the spider verse? Miles is literally fighting against the notion that you need to experience trauma in order to be a good spider man. My heart goes out to all the animators and I really hope the next film gets delayed.

[@omorinintendoswitchedition]

holy shit your teacher is an absolute asshole

[@ArtemisMoon90]

This is why we need UBI, so that people don't have to put up with this kind of abusive work environments.

[@WiloPolis03]

I dunno, I'm cautiously supportive of UBI but it shouldn't be seen as the be all end all solution to income inequality or worker exploitation

[@nailinthefashion]

​@@WiloPolis03of course it's not an end all be all but it's objectively better and sustainable to a further degree than what we are currently socially addicted to: excess, freedom to hoard, etc

[@WiloPolis03]

@@nailinthefashion Oh absolutely, I'm just saying UBI is an essential part of the solution, not *the* solution (subtweeting Andrew Yang a bit here)

[@nailinthefashion]

@@WiloPolis03 but there's never gonna be just one solution, so when people like you push back on UBI unintentionally like that it helps licherally no one, and it's why bills have stagnated or gotten denied instead of passing. It's a centrist take, but it helps rightists more than us This is why I wanna move to Canada so bad lol they're the new USA imo

[@WiloPolis03]

@@nailinthefashion Yeah maybe I could've phrased that better initially then lol. I am pro UBI, it just bugs me when we get tech bro politicians that use it to justify welfare cuts and lack of pro labor policy. I'd support anyone who can advocate for both, not just one or the other

[@matt0044]

The saddest part? I’m… not even surprised by this point. I mean, the writer’s strike alone has had stories come out about how bad it is on that level and streaming services are giving animation the shortest stick possible. Frankly, it’s disappointing because… this wasn’t just a garden variety Disney or Dreamworks movie with a tried and true art style. This was going above and beyond. Yet… it seems like nobody knew the limits on the “beyond” they were shooting for. Spider verse isn’t an exception but that’s never a reason to make it the rule.

[@benjamintillema3572]

When I first heard the reported budget of only $100 million (which, I know, SEEMS like a lot but most blockbusters these days spend at least twice that and some three times as much) it felt like something was wrong. You do not get a two and a half hour movie with the largest group of animators working on a single film ever (at least that's what I heard) without cutting corners and underpaying people.

[@yeeyeeyeeye]

So many people, when they see something like Across the Spiderverse or Puss in Boots: The Last Wish go, "see what happens when you pay your animators/ take your time/ etc." even when it is not the case a lot of the time - just only because the film was good. If we want real change to be done, we must all have to admit to ourselves and acknowledge that 1). this is an industry wide problem and 2). your favorite film/ cartoon was made off the backs of overworked, underpaid workers, and it doesn't go away just because it was good and has a high rating on Rotten Tomatoes.

[@imrustyokay]

"Oh, come on, we can't have SHIT IN THIS HOUSE." Also, I will say, having worked in Live Action before, I feel like certian parties are just treating the Animation process as basically a carbon copy of the Live-Action process, which it absolutely isn't. Such a shame that the parties in question can't seem to comprehend it.

[@whiskeyii4515]

I read the linked article; this quote in particular stood out to me, emphasis mine: "they attribute to Lord’s management style - in particular, his seeming inability to conceptualize 3-D animation during the early planning stages and *his preference to edit fully rendered work instead.*" I want you all to know that I screamed internally when I read that; folks, it can take supercomputers literal HOURS just to render a single *scene*. And now think about all the weeks spent by people and departments to make a normal Disney scene--the animators, the lighters, the VFX artists, the hair and cloth simulation stuff, etc., etc.,--and now add on all the uniquely Spiderverse stuff like the comic line shaders, the smear frames, the half-tone comic print, all that jazz. This is why the layout stage of animation EXISTS--to help you visual what the scene will look like beforehand. That is frankly just flat-out unprofessional.

[@Stephen-Fox]

"his seeming inability to conceptualize 3-D animation during the early planning stages" - Dear lord, that should be a disqualifying trait for doing 3d animation

[@ronjaj.addams-ramstedt1023]

​@Stephen-Fox , could he have some extent of aphantasia? And if yes, it definitely is a disqualifying trait for this kind of work.

[@Y-E-R-I]

he should AT LEAST hire someone that can conceptualize this. AT LEAST. but the most important thing is, if he wants to do that, is GIVE THEM MORE TIME. HIRE MORE PEOPLE. GIVE THEM MORE PAY.

[@emilyrln]

What. The. Fuck. ???????

[@thelordstarfish]

The perpetually frustrating thing with cases like this is, even assuming that people *do* end up boycotting Beyond in large numbers that meaningfully affects the bottomline... studios never, ever take the message people want them to take from it. It's never going to land as "Oh, I guess massively overworking our staff is harmful to our bottomline", it is *always* going to be "Oh, I guess they didn't want a movie with a black lead" or "Oh I guess nobody wants this crazy experimental animation". Like, somehow, in their eyes it always comes back to "We should make movies that are less creatively risk-taking and/or diverse because that's *safer."* ...I mean after two phenomenally successful installments that are both those things one would hope that they might look to other explanations and, y'know, maybe look at what fans are actually saying... But this is an industry where you get regularly disappointed even if your expectations are at rock bottom. ...And yeah, Beyond the Spider-Verse *needs* to be delayed. 2025 is the *absolute earliest* it should come out. I would not object to a 2026 release, even. Heck, I would welcome it. From the perspective of wanting animators to be treated fairly, absolutely, but even just from the perspective of *wanting a good movie to watch,* it seems absolutely impossible that they could make a satisfying finale in just, what, nine months?

[@PeanutsAssorted]

Honestly this is why I wish they'd stop announcing release dates so far in advance, because that encourages this. The audience knows that they should expect a film by a certain date and a certain element of that audience will be upset at any movement. Just wait to announce the damn film when it's made, I don't need to know that in March of next year I might get to see a sequel because I don't know what I'm doing in March of next year. If they didn't announce that they could actually take their time with these films and give them the treatment they deserve, instead they have a release date set before they even know what the story they're telling is and how can that end anywhere other than an intense crunch period?

[@DavidBeddard]

I came out of the cinema thinking "Now that was a movie clearly made with love!" I am a naive fool. 😫

[@CouncilofGeeks]

No it was also made with love. Just sadly not love alone.

[@limespots]

The film does drip with passion and you can see it bleed through, but there's a hand that punches to make the blood spill more.

[@DavidBeddard]

@@CouncilofGeeks Aye, a good point.

[@DavidBeddard]

@@limespots Poetic

[@katlegoassegaai9235]

​@@CouncilofGeeksI saw the movie at IMAX and I loved it. I can still love the movie but I hate Phil lord and Chris miller. Animat was right about cloudy with a chance of meatballs! 😡 Cloudy 2 was one of its worst and I should have never watched it in theaters back in 2013.

[@Venemofthe888]

Animators are treated absolutely horrible and its disgusting what companies think they can get away with cause they have been for right now. There needs to be a change and there needs to be a union to finally protect your workers for your present and the future. I know its easier said than done but rock the boat and realize you deserve better. Amy Pascal has a horrendous opinion and the absolute arrogance from her is disgusting. Treat your employees like people who are alive, have loved ones and deserve their time off from work. 77 Hour work week is ridiculous and treating your staff like that is disgusting and bordering on a slave wage hell it might even be at this point. Do Better Animation Companies and respect your workers and dont blacklist people who dare to stand up for themselves for the amount of BS they get put up with. Everything we have and is produced has a rotten core somewhere its just harder to see or harder when you want to see it.

[@thecosmichiroshi]

Though unfortunately for the creatives actually putting in the work to actually make the movie, animation companies CAN and WILL get away with whatever malpractice they want to afflict on artists and creatives all for the sake of getting these productions done on time to have their executives reap unfathomable amounts of filthy shareholder money to buy "just ONE MORE YACHT FOR ME TO TAKE TO MIAMI AND PARTY OUT LIKE HELL OVER THE PEASANTS." Until real legislation protecting animators and creatives is passed onto these Hollywood companies that prevents them from using loopholes like outsourcing and hiring non-union workers at a whim, horribly inhumane conditions like the ones in Across the Spider-Verse will not only continue and become the standard for all studios moving forward, but it may even lead to record-high suicide rates like in Eastern animation studios and a gradual trend of homogenized animated films deprived of any soul or creativity (a la AI-generated "films").

[@margoalex.]

I just discovered the news yesterday and I feel like I’ve been in mourning ever since. I truly haven’t discovered a movie that I loved this much in so long. Yet, it breaks my heart to know that these are the conditions it was made in.

[@oliviayeates3931]

Follow-up question (for anyone who reads this): now that fans and would-be fans of Spiderverse are aware of the horrific work conditions, is there anything more we can do to support these animators in addition to spreading the word and, as Vera stated she'd do, not go see Across the Spiderverse in theaters?

[@emilyrln]

Something an animator on ATSV said in another comment is to *elevate the voices of animators and crew,* as the article does. Lord and Miller get interviews where they can share their side of the story, but workers are in danger of losing their jobs and being blacklisted if they speak up, so *those brave folks who do speak up should be amplified wherever we find them.*

[@LabiLabi777]

There has been a whole lot of conversations on the "future of animation". And with these accounts and the horrible mistreatment of Pixar's Elemental(their hardest ever) it shows that we as an audience or even as producers and executives are so f**king ungrateful. We've grown apathetic towards these people who not only do this as their career but as their livelihood. We have forgotten that these are PEOPLE behind these projects and these PEOPLE are the ones making these films. And, the worst part is, we are pitting animation studios against each other. WHY?! They don't do this in the industry because it's stupid, why the hell must we?! I am sick and tired of the complaints over the lack of 2D or too much 3D or how 2.5D is getting saturated. These arguments are unimportant in comparison to the people who not only make these films but also do not f**king care. There are more important things to be resolved here besides how "Puss in Boots made Disney fall off". We all need to grow the hell up and support these animators. Also, if they move the release date, GREAT👍

[@bevinbrand4637]

I wish I could like this more than once.

[@IshtarNike]

Good points. I think the problem is consumer boycotts are hard enough to pull off in a city let alone globally. To effect a meaningful consumer boycott we'd need a worldwide movement on a truly massive scale. It would also need to be organised in fairly short time frames. I just don't think consumer boycotts for this kind of stuff will work. I think energy would be better spent in trying to help artists and animators unionise. There's a lot smaller of a bottleneck at the creation of these things and they have far more leverage.

[@wyvern723]

My husband works for a food distribution warehouse. During the height of the pandemic, he was working up to 80 hour work weeks. He barely saw me or his children. He was working 14, 15, 16 hour days. It was awful. He was always tired and sore and emotionally exhausted.

[@kirbycobain1845]

"they're not doing data entry" I'm literally listening to this at my data entry job and I can confirm that although it's easy and pays the bills, it isn't fulfilling in any way. I'd leave this job for a better one a lot more easily than something I actually put my heart and soul into Also that was a hilarious coincidence lol

[@maglorian]

To paraphrase Jordan Mallory: ‘I want shorter movies with worse cinematography made by people who are paid more to work less and i'm not kidding.’

[@brandelynnefreleng7597]

CGI workers absolutely need unions. That’s part of why practical effects, no matter how simple, have been phased out. It’s just cheaper for some overworked CGI studio to do it in post. I haven’t seen Spider Verse in theaters and won’t now. All CGI workers, ALL WORKERS, need protections. Meanwhile some states are trying to reduce child labor restrictions. Write to your representatives or leave a message. (Tip: handwritten letters and phone calls get paid more attention than emails.)

[@TimothyCollins]

I have to say - if this is what these animators produce in this type of environment then pay them more, let them have time and watch the brilliance they could produce. Because this sounds like a really bad environment that still produced a really great movie - I have to wonder what might come out of a good working environment.

[@dan1435]

As an animator myself, I appreciate your openness in showing your anger because I think a lot of people just think it’s okay because it happens kinda often. I hope this movie gets delays AT LEAST a year to give these people some time to rest. I also really think that something like what is happening with the writers guild could be a good thing to happen with artist. Appreciate you shining a light on this, keep doing what your doing ❤

[@ChannelPup]

I feel you. I'm tired. The animators were already admirable, but perhaps even moreso now knowing that they worked through this and had the courage to speak up. Also I like your hoodie.

[@sagebuttercrunch]

No one should have to work that much. During my first job I was working overtime, late at night every day except Sunday and it wrecked my mental health.

[@cheyblake2475]

Did you quit?

[@sagebuttercrunch]

Yes

[@cheyblake2475]

@@sagebuttercrunch ok, glad you did if it's hurting your mental health

[@Emily_The_Cartoonist]

The way they talk about their animation “process” reminds of how the black cauldron, was made with a person who didnt understand animation overworking and undermining the animators…

[@johnvinals7423]

If it weren’t for the striptease mouse sequence done by Musker and Clements for “The Great Mouse Detective”, Disney Animation would have completely folded and gone away forever.

[@erinfee5104]

This situation absolutely brings to mind Katzenberg demanding "reshoots" for Black Cauldron. It seems like, unlike Black Cauldron, Spider-verse's positive reception made the leadership think that their success was BECAUSE of their "process" and not in spite of it...

[@johnvinals7423]

Friendly reminder, people: “Encanto” and “Raya and the Last Dragon” both got made without any substantial crunch. Same for “Strange World”, by the way.

[@johnvinals7423]

@@WiloPolis03EEAAO isn’t animated, though it was made very ethically.

[@WiloPolis03]

@@johnvinals7423 Oh yeah true lol that completely went over my head

[@FabbrizioPlays]

Weird to me that Disney of all companies is the one not putting their animators under crunch.

[@lilbread1717]

The Super Mario movie was made in the Illumination Studio in Paris, and so, had to follow French work's laws, which are way better than the USA ones (legal working time is 35h to 40h and unions are a part of our blood at this point.)

[@kbreezy1581]

Those weren't nearly as visually impressive, and cost double of what spiderverse did to accomplish this but yea at least they weren't made with time crunch. Apparently BTSV isn't even close to done and hailee steinfeld hasn't recorded a single line for it so the fact that a march 2024 release date was announced is scary. How much more were the animators gonna go thru to make this possible??

[@StylusShade]

Given how people are starting to wake up to the importance of confronting workplace abuse, I feel like this won't be forgotten so easily, even if it's allowed to continue. Part of me expects another strike.

[@reyfan011]

I’m looking for work to become a character designer but not gonna lie, news like this scares me. I know it’s no secret that artists get put through the ringer to meet deadlines, long hours, calls for edits and redraws or a complete overhaul of scenes that are halfway done. I always thought that was part of the job that I was warned about in school. But hearing the conditions like this and especially like the artists who worked on ‘sausage party’, it’s enough to be nervous about what studio you’d be working for will put you through.

[@KaminoKatie]

Same here and I have been scared of doing my GED due to my horrible math skills outside the four basics

[@Quoyth]

It's terrible that most great things are made by or under abuse. =(

[@sericsmith5770]

Yeah. Stuff like Ren and Stimpy comes to mind, and don't get me started about the Anime industry! (Though I may not be an Anime fan, I know that most of these studios are just straight-up sweatshops!)

[@ainevy]

The animation industry has been on fire for years. I don't even know when it started, just that one day I looked up and it was. Likely it's been building up towards these catastrophic levels for a while; getting worse the more executives realize they can get away with, for less cost and more profit, unrestrained by any proper regulations and fueled by technological advancements that they think justify treating workers as even less. I've spent years studying and struggling to get into this field, because I love it, I love the process and I love what it can do. But lately... It's like I'm running towards a burning building with people screaming inside. Rubble falling, sinkholes forming. And despite everything, I still want to get in. And I don't know what to do about that. Because the only ones with the power to stop the fire are the ones who started it in the first place. And they've made it look so, so normal to get crushed under debris, most people don't even bat an eye when another building goes up in flames, if they even notice it at all.

[@snuffythefloof5448]

This is such a good way of describing it! I feel the same…

[@katiem9025]

When I saw the comments about how Lord would try to edit this as a live action film, i about screamed "THATS NOT HOW THAT WORKS! THATS NOT HOW ANIMATION PRODUCTION WORKS!". I graduated with an animation degree (done fuck all with it but it be like that sometimes), and our senior overview projects were staged like a production. It was "if you don't have a script/storyboards/character turnarounds by week 8, *you will fail*". I took a different route with a concept art thesis, but everyone else did films. So much gets dropped. I think we were the first class in years where more than 50% of the class was there at the end vs the beginning. (now, i could rant about how our class and department was set up and the timing of it but thats a different problem). I saw most of my classmates trim the shit out of their projects because of time crunch to make a finished product. And thats a semester long project. I think the majority of the class had to get extensions. So to hear professional, experienced, animation production being run like my college senior overview class is ***fucking appalling***.

[@Sailortwilight]

With great power comes great responsibility to your crew. ❤

[@LoucheWoman]

Deleted scenes from The Emperor's New Groove are in flip book form. It's not like the industry as a whole doesn't know, it's that the directors/producers are used to working in film and are being treated like pampered princesses and possibly not told about the real cost of a request to see scenes in finished form before making revisions. I can totally see this being a request passed down the line and everyone under them just knuckling under out of fear of being penalized for speaking up.

[@Maw0]

Amen.

[@tristezaeternal]

This movie is such a mind-blowing masterpiece, I can't even imagine how much more brilliant it would've been if workers hadn't been abused. I am just as sad and furious and I hope they realize thanks to who they have so much money and rewards and postpone the release date as much later as animators will need

[@beatrizcosta9945]

I was waiting so badly for this not to be true, but I also understand the conditions of work for animators are abysmal. This sucks so much

[@jaybee4118]

My partner works in game audio. Because they’re at the very end of the line, this happened all the flipping time. Writers would change something, animators worked on it next last minute, THEN audio got it and were constantly moaned at for “taking too long” when they were working 80 plus hour weeks. They didn’t get overtime because they were salaried. It caused him a lot of stress when he worked in house. Now he’s freelance and thankfully it’s not nearly as bad… but it still happens from time to time.

[@theleafinyourhair]

it's really sad that something like art can be corrupted by capitalism, lack of empathy and greed always seem to surface, even in an industry filled with supposedly creative and worldly people. i also loved this movie, the animation is absolutely phenomenal. i'd hate to see a world where people are discouraged from helping creating things like this because the work culture is so toxic.

[@X08-Chill]

They really, really need better deadlines for Beyond The Spider-Verse and less hours per working week

[@Stephen-Fox]

"This really does happen on every film" - Then why do cut scenes from various Disney films from the 90s have with full voice acting to storyboards. They were storyboarded, in enough detail to do an edit once the VAs recorded their lines and/or songs, then the cuts happened, and then the animation occurred. We know that, at least in video games, crunch correlates with lower RoI, lower meta-critic scores, and buggier products. Even if you don't care about your artists, as this studio apparently doesn't based on those... Fascinating quotes... You still compromised your chances of success by having a production that required crunch. Some projects - like this one - get lucky. But it's the quality that it is despite the crunch, not because of it.

[@KaminoKatie]

Majora's Mask is made with massive crunch and yet it was good in spite of that

[@theaveragecomment1014]

@@KaminoKatieYep, and that makes me sympathise with the people who were in those horrible working conditions even more. They made something incredible despite what they went through. And they don’t get any reward for it. It sucks and it’s so exploitative

[@wildwesley9328]

It’s so disappointing that some of the best things are only available through horrible means.

[@CatHasOpinions734]

When the general public first started finding out about the horrific crunch problem in game creation, I was TERRIFIED to find out if that applied to my favorite games, because I still replay my old favorites a lot, and how do you find joy in something if you know that the people responsible for your joy were harmed as part of that process? On some level, sure, "no ethical consumption" and all that, but I'm not talking about just being an ethical consumer, the point of fiction, and art in general, is to make you feel something, and hearing about crunch or other sorts of workplace abuse just taints that, at least for me. I haven't seen the movie, but I've been looking forward to it and carefully avoiding spoilers. Knowing this, I'm not sure if I want to watch it anymore.

[@WaitWhatWho]

I expected this. I mean the next movie is (scheduled to be) coming out in *nine months* when the last movie took years to make, not including pandemic time

[@DeonTain]

It could have been done ethically (clearly it isn't being). If it had all been in the works from the start and just split up and expanded into two movies later on the timing would not prove anything on it's own.

[@will8994]

I have no idea how Amy Pascal is still working in the movie industry after those Sony leaks a decade ago as well as absolutely failing to make ‘The Amazing Spider-Man 2’ the billion dollar movie that the studio needed

[@spacecat6022]

I'm so glad you talk about this. I studied in animation and yes, those things are all talked about among animators. So many companies abuse their workers with those crunch forced work... Then people are so tired that they quit and lose some financial benefits by quitting themselves and also hate the movies they worked on.

[@dunaruiditos7620]

Thank you for this video. It's really important to humanize the people behind creative projects that you like, especially underpaid, overworked and underrecognized workers, and to move towards them having equal conditions. Because we LOVE these movies, we should want a fair and just conditions for the people who make them.

[@resident-evil-jerma5389]

this is my favourite film franchise ever. that’s not saying a ton as most franchises are bad and spider-man is my second favourite superhero, but it is. i won’t be watching beyond the spider-verse unless there’s a delay. fans don’t want it early. fans want it good but most importantly pain free. no art should require the suffering of hundreds to 1,000 people in order to come out on time. no art should require that.

[@AsterInDis]

I hope that the animation union grows and they can push back on abusive shit like this. I hate that they can make beautiful work and yet end up as the buttmonkey and holding the bag.

[@Brunoxsa]

Thank you for the video, Vera! What is disgusting about the discourse over that kind of situation is, if the media work is successful and well received, the accusations of abuse and exploitation will be treated and dismissed as hate and negativity against it. But if similar work is bad and unsuccessful, the same discourse is only used as an excuse to criticize it even more and justify its failure. In both cases, these accusations are worth of denouncing the toxic culture of the creation process behind them! Actually, if the work is really that successful, it is even less reason for that to keep happening. Some people will argue that "the media is good, so the abuse behind it was a worth trade-off" or "despite having an exploitative work, you should be grateful for be able to pay rent and buy food with it". What The F*ck! And the CEOs, shareholders, directors and producers dismissing the abuse and "crunch" as something common across the media industries, they always take a share over the profits of millions or billions, but at the same time, they are not willing to share it with the rest of the "faceless" professionals directly involved into the creation process. It is such hypocrisy! And "no ethical consumption under capitalism" and "you criticize society yet you participate in it" are literal losers' arguments. I really hate how they imply that we should do nothing, accept the things as they are, and do not try improve the world! Well, at some point, we all have to "draw the line in the sand" about what is tolerable or not, and eventually that kind of situation will affect everybody (except for the millionaires/billionaires of the world)! By the way, Vera, I love you for quoting our beautiful enby mess Jim Stephanie Sterling!

[@nathanyou1899]

If a film genuinely is a masterpiece, then it will still be a masterpiece even if you have to delay it for a year.

[@PogieJoe]

Thank you for sharing your rage. As someone similarly employed at a non-unionized media company, the comments in the Vulture article were painfully relatable.

[@roberts.2300]

How has Amy Pascal not been fired? She is basically the female version of Bobby Kotick. The email leak scandal alone should have ended her career. She scapegoated by saying she was targeted due to sexism (which I laugh at). She is one of the most devious manipulative people in the film industry. Even Kevin Feige knows this. She threw a sandwich at him. By the way even if she was ever let go she gets a golden parachute like so many of these creeps get after being tyrant of their company.

[@thaios4863]

Heya, thanks for making this.... Im an animator - I'm a humble student and not yet in this meat grinder of a creative industry, but hearing stuff like this rings true to what i already know.... And i know for a fact how hard it is to redo work that im doing for MYSELF. work i do on my own. I often redraw, reanimate, tweak and redo entire shots or illustrations to get things how i want..... So imagining doing ALL that to have my work swept from the final production because the script of the movie CHANGED COMPLETELY.... It blows my mind. As you said before, the pre production is where you work on what is happening BEFORE you put thousands of animators to work... i have a chaotic workflow, but if i was directing that many people, i would respect individuals creative inputs, quirks and changes in their own shots because IT WOULDNT ONLY BE MY WORK. Knowing these destructive "guillotine" changes were done by writers and management makes me beyind angry... Thank you for making this, and i appreciate your genuine emotion.

[@lilSapphireFox]

"Welcome to making a movie" reads like "welcome to the real world" when people try to justify unfairness without any arguments. Usually said to children who try to make it right.

[@timothyboykin9318]

As someone who loved Marvel movies and Who Loved superheroes in general as a special interest, it pains me to see this. These people should not be working 11 hours a day even on the weekends because that's all make 77 hours. That is inhumane

[@ThatFlamingFroggo]

Big oof. I recently saw this movie in theatre, and it was amazing. I typically get overstimulated by a lot of colors, and flashing lights but it was one of those instances that it was enthralling to the point it didn't bother me as much until towards the last 15 minutes. To find out that the artists involved in creating this beautiful, intense piece of work were overworked and essentially, abused....yeah, that pisses me off. I would have waited to see it, if it meant giving the artists their dignity. As an artist, it really pisses me off how undervalued the form and those who create it, are treated.

[@WedgeOfSpite]

Yeah, Hayao Miyazaki despite being all about unions and workers rights! as a young man...Studio Ghibli is just as bad as the rest. According to a former Producer, "it’s about as time-consuming as you’d expect." He said that, during a crunch, "he would only get a few hours a sleep per night and nobody would get any days off." So the supposedly charming thing about Miyazaki making ramen for his workers, should be put in the context of he was going so because everyone was taking turns to cook, during brutal "crunches." Oh so people like the finished product? Okay, but lots of people suffered to realize Miyazaki's vision. This should be called out as not being okay. Animation, VFX, video-game workers need a LOT more rights, and yeah stronger unions (young Miyazaki would agree).

[@jesterfairy3845]

As a huge fan of Miyazaki's films, I totally agree. As much as I love the art, it should not come before people's health and wellbeing.

[@aylinitzel.]

We waited five years for the second one, as much as I’d love to see the third in less than a year it’s not worth it. We can wait. I had no idea they were barely in the beginning stages, that’s insane turnover.

[@EmlynBoyle]

Animators are treated like writers...a movie doesn't exist without their hard work, and yet they are the ones most poorly treated/exploited. AI doesn't help matters.

[@randobeantv7712]

How many of us would actually walk away from a job like this realistically? A dream job, a job you believe in, something you've poured time and talent and care into. You wouldn't. Or if you did it would be so hard to do. Even one person walking away from a project like this is a reason to raise eyebrows, let alone 100+.

[@theyakkoman]

I loved Across the Spider-Verse. I loved the animation, I loved the more details we got into Gwen's life, I loved how Miles had grown and his relationship with his family. And I freakin love Hobie Brown aka Spider-Punk. Such an awesome character. And although I saw the twist coming (or, well, half the twist, won't spoil it) it was still satisfying and it left me wanting more. Now, that taste for more has turned bitter. You DO NOT treat your workers this way. It is incompetent! It is inhumane! And it is inexcusable! Shame on you, Sony. Do better!

[@imverygay7572]

Even right now i feel like not a lot of people are talking about this which sucks because this is not okay and shouldn't be forgotten. I cant image working non stop animating and making sure it looks perfect and with the expectations of fans and higher ups. I hope more people talk about this and hope the animators get better working conditions on BTSV

[@s0phi3e]

Oh that stupid "welcome to making a movie" line made me livid while reading the article. Saying this in response to a 77 hour work week is so disrespectful. They better delay Beyond The Spiderverse. I would wait another 5 years, hell I would wait 10 years for it. And if they can't find a way to make it ethically, I don't want it at all. It's heartbreaking because there's so much heart in this movie and amazing artistry that deserves to be seen. But not for any price. Great video, you really summed it all up well. We just can't have nice things.

[@aquapyro1]

You know, Disney and Pixar would have story meetings every couple of weeks for a couple of months to even years, just to get it right.

[@percyaguirre2970]

I loved the movie and you are 100% right throughout this video. I still wish for it to win awards and do well for the people involved, but I agree, it would have benefitted from a delay and less hours. I would hope they not only delay BTSV, but can make things better for workers/animators involved. Maybe if people outside of this niche audience knew and caused enough ruckus the conditions could be better but I also worry it'd hurt the animators who spoke out:/

[@lordgamermon]

We're in the middle of a writer's strike, possibly about to see an actor's strike, and more of this stuff keeps popping up. How many more people will speak up before something changes?

[@Dunybrook]

Considering how much money these companies make it doesn't seem that hard to limit workers to a 50 hour work week. Unfortunately a work week that is over 70 hours seems common for cast and crews in Hollywood even with all the unions. The only difference is that they usually get one day off a week. There's also the fact that even super profitable companies like Netflix are outsourcing things to companies in Japan or other countries where the work culture is even more extreme and the artists get paid way less.

[@GoofyGE3K]

Part of me wonders if these late changes were because it's part 1 of 2. That maybe because of tweaks to the second movie, things had to be changed here. Part of me understands that could happen. That that's a good reason to make changes late in the game you normally wouldn't. And yet the other part of me knows that's not good enough. It's no excuse for 77 hour work weeks. Delay the project

[@Stephen-Fox]

If you're planning it as a duology, as opposed to a film and then a sequel movie, you should be doing all of that storyboarding process that Vera mentioned and which allows you to lock in an edit before anything gets locked.

[@GoofyGE3K]

@@Stephen-Fox absolutley. But if something, for whatever reason, changed dramatically in the second one betind their control then it makes sense that something would change. Which is giving then a lot of benefit of the doubt, and isnt an excuse, but could explain how we got here.

[@gota7738]

Reports on Lord's style of producing are putting it down to his alleged difficulty in making decisions at the layout stage and waiting till the rendered animation stage to make differences. I recall rumours before it was officially announced that they were having difficulties settling on the story and were considering cutting it into two. Overall I've been getting the impression that production had some major issues for quite some time. A delay is certainly needed but also a reassessment on production scheduling and if reports of them overriding the directors more on this film, accountability on Lord & Miller's parts as producers.

[@jackaylward-williams9064]

If Spider-Man was real, it wouldn’t just be a dream come true for my 7 year old cousin, it would also solve most of the problems in our society by making people realise that with great power, comes great responsibility.

[@aliservan7188]

This all boils down to America's longing for the days of slavery. There's an attitude that workers should bow and scrape to management, being treated like surfs. Worker protections are enshrined in LAW in the EU, we need to have that here.

[@angellover02171]

There really should be a world wide union for animators

[@StarCraven]

It’s hard to even comprehend how anyone would think a big movie like Beyond the Spider-Verse could be completely finished in less than a year… ESPECIALLY ONE WHERE EACH FRAME NEEDS TO BE TEDIOUSLY CRAFTED BY ANIMATORS AND DESIGNERS/MODELERS!!!

[@alwkw3783]

Thank you for highlighting this. It's so common anymore in so many sectors. I feel like my head is spinning. Edit: I wish I could like this video a million times. Every word you said is absolutely correct.

[@Elwaves2925]

I said a similar thing myself except that I've become convinced it happens at all major companies, across all industries. The difference being whether we hear about it or not.

[@alwkw3783]

@@Elwaves2925 Totally agree

[@nancyjay790]

And sadly, many people who loved Across the Spider-verse will run to be in the cinema, and will be screaming if it comes out later than 2024. Ye spake truth, Vera. Thank you. I'm sorry we can't have nice things.

[@Maw0]

It's already been confirmed.

[@Starbush69]

I understand having conflicting thoughts on this chain of events, so do I. Art isn’t an easy process, but it should be fun to make. It should not be a living hell, even if the final product turns out amazing.

[@AJ-wh1tw]

7:48 I’m not surprised about the overtime. For the very brief time I spent doing some non-union work in television, one of the reasons that stint was so brief was because the pay (which was already low) was as it turned out an AVERAGE hourly rate quote. The actual hourly rate was even lower, but with overtime would average out the the quoted rate over the course of the week. I had just come off of nearly a decade in the military and that set job was the most abused/disrespected I had ever felt in a job.

[@Deathlygunn]

Honestly I hope anination departments unionize and go on strike soon because without them Hollywood doesnt get Avatar, Marvel, DC, Star Wars, Spider-Verse, Lord of the Rings, Toy Story, Shrek, etc... making them the big bucks and theyre going to realize animators arent just people you contract to make effects, they've become the lynchpin of the modern blockbuster

[@sunsetvibe1063]

I don’t think you can name a single Marvel product nowadays that doesn’t overwork it’s cg artists. First the entire MCU controversy with how many projects they have to work on now. As well as this new Spider-Verse controversy. It’s pretty much a condition now to work over the proper conditions. Kind of sad, but at the same time completely terrible because I can’t think of one Marvel product at the moment where their production processes aren’t completely disorganised.

[@isaacrichter3269]

Toxic work environments are, sadly, very normalized at this point. The day I learned what "quiet quitting" means is the day I realized just how messed up our working culture is, and why so many in the younger generations are fighting against it (which I believe could be the beginning of the end of capitalism... that and the fact that AI may soon be able to do all the highest paying jobs, but that's a topic for another day). Looking through the article, here's a quote that struck me from one of the animators: "The frustrating thing is at the end of the day the work is good. There’s a lot of high praise that comes out of it. So there’s this rollercoaster of emotions where you go through hell but it makes people happy. And it makes you happy that people are happy. And you want to do it again." I'm guessing this is why a lot of productions get away with these kinds of working conditions. No matter how hellish the experience is, the people working on it are convinced that it was a good experience because the product is good, or even if they still admit to it being hellish, they look at what came of it and decide it's worth going through all the abuse if it means you're part of that. This doesn't just happen in animation, there's a large culture of management abusing the workforce and then holding up the finished product, loudly praising "this could not be done without you", which of course convinces people that it's ultimately worth all the sacrifices. Great video as always Vera, though you did make one mistake. The first quote you attributed to Amy Pascal was actually Michelle Grady, the executive vice-president and general manager of Sony Picture Imageworks. Letting you know because I know how thorough you are, which is greatly appreciated always...

[@DiM2404]

I’ve done some 77+ hour weeks in post production and can confirm it really has a snowballing effect on the work, you get tired, you make mistakes, then the hours blow out exponentially. And that’s just ignoring the toll on mental and physical health that follows. I’m lucky to have mostly had producers who recognised this, would give very generous time in lieu after these crunch periods to recuperate, but they really are the exception in the industry at large, and it’s still an imperfect solution to a very abusive and dangerous practice.

[@DiM2404]

And when I say post, I mean the offline edit. Generally within the post industry Post is shorthand for VFX and colour (a really confusing and inconsistent distinction), but the hours I’ve seen people do in the actual Post bit of post are often even worse.

[@daisyfox2452]

I've had a job where I routinely worked 50-55 hours a week. Even if you are getting paid properly it starts to break you. I can't imagine working 77 hours a week.

[@samhill618]

We as designers abuse ourselves constantly. When a company does it and doesn't even reward the artist exponentially it's criminal and shouldn't be allowed. We shouldn't allow them the ability for such abuse (for this there needs to be stronger unions and really changes to the entire political system). It's one of the reasons I moved to Europe where (at least the extremes of this system) aren't allowed. It will get worse until we do something collectively.

[@HotDogTimeMachine385]

Back in my day people wrote movies first and then started making them.... That was one of the FIRST filmmaking and animation rules they told us

[@SebastianSeanCrow]

20:43 we’ve had traditionally published comic series go on long hiatuses because the creators weren’t taking the limited vacation time their editors insisted they take. We’ve seen people self employed nearly mill themselves with work. It’s one thing when you do it to yourself, still not good, but you still… have some agency at least? It’s incredibly abusive when another is MAKING you donit

[@cuearesty]

Learning about this today is heartbreaking. Its not fair to do that to their creatives. Having them scrap everything and redo stuff without a solid storyboard is not how things should be run... there are times when you have to do some OT, but this should be minimal - additional touches, going the extra mile, some flourish here and there. NOT THE ENTIRE PROJECT. Ive worked in broadcasting and I also work still in the creative field in a different capacity. The hand-to-mouth way of doing things is not sustainable, is very toxic, and becomes super expensive in the long run.

[@resident-evil-jerma5389]

you can edit late, you can do it loose, you can go back and replace work. if you don’t have a tight deadline. if you do have a tight deadline, it’s bound to become either a bad situation or a bad movie. this deadline would’ve been tight if it wasn’t this complex. pushing the deadline back is necessary to avoid abuse, it’s not just okay, it’s RIGHT.

[@Elwaves2925]

I haven't said it here until now but I have said it elsewhere. I'm 100% convinced that this type of thing happens at ALL major companies, whatever industry they may be in. Not all the time but at all major companies. The only thing that sets some apart fromm others is whether the general public gets to hear about it.

[@ronjaj.addams-ramstedt1023]

It's rarer in most of Europe and Canada. Laws that protect workers need to have teeth, and in the US, the teeth have been all but removed. And in developing countries, the teeth are few and far apart. 😢 (sad)

[@Elwaves2925]

@@ronjaj.addams-ramstedt1023 Yeah, I've heard a lot over the years about how rough it is for workers in the US. Having spent a year in New York myself, I heard it directly from them. It's heading that way in the UK too and is one of the reasons I moved to self employment.

[@shay5479]

Imagine how good Beyond the Spiderverse would be if the workers were treated well vs if they were treated as they are rn

[@ookamiblade6318]

This is what has worried me about movie filming moving to Georgia..... Georgia has looser minimum wage laws, including one that allows a sub-minimum wage for the disabled that can go as low as 0.25$ an hour....