SpiderVerse Broke Its Animators - Art Commentary

A big thank you to ‪@fxllxngofficial‬ for helping with audio editing and providing the music!
Intro - 00:00
Part 1: Into The Rabbit Hole - 4:31
Part 2: Across The Fandom - 15:49
Part 3: Beyond The Prospects - 31:45
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Resources:
Vulture Article: Spider-Verse Artists Say Working on the Sequel Was ‘Death by a Thousand Paper Cuts’: www.vulture.com/2023/06/spide...
‘Across the Spider-Verse was made with abuse’ video by Council of Geeks: • Across the Spider-Vers...
The Direct Article: Spider-Verse 2 Star Confirms Lots of Last-Minute Changes: thedirect.com/article/spider-...
‘Spider-Man Across the Spiderverse: TWO VERSIONS of the Film Confirmed! (Every Change Breakdown)’ by New Rockstars:
• Spider-Man Across the ...
LegoMe_The OG:
/ @legome_theog
BBC Article: ‘Windrush 75: What is Windrush and who are the Windrush generation?: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43782241
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My Links:
Twitter: ItsFionapollo?t=j...
Tiktok: / fionapollo
Instagram: / fionapollo.yt
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Software:
Clip Studio Paint EX (illustration)
OBS (speedpaint recording)
Audacity (Audio)
Adobe After Effects (Editing)
Adobe Media Encoder (Rendering)

[@Fionapollo]

So as it turns out, the letter provided towards the end of the video from Sony turned out to be a fake. I'm sorry for including that particular image within the video, however it is highly likely that the film will in fact be delayed Sorry bout that guys!

[@kittypink]

It looked fake, why would Sony admit poor management?

[@JustClem001]

OMFG I love spiderpunk nice drawing! And I love the people and labor as well as the passion that went into such a piece, and in of all things spiderman. Stunning work! (also) fuck the shameful culture around animation, and the effort put into this art and even cgi

[@Kimonia6]

It's officially confirmed that Beyond The Spiderverse will be indefinitely delayed.

[@JustClem001]

@@Kimonia6 As of yesterday I assume? I heard about the workplace stuff but dang it went that far?

[@omorinintendoswitchedition]

crazy how some people are like “abusing the animators is key to making an amazing movie” when the main point of across the spiderverse was that you dont need to suffer to be something special

[@maninanikittycat4238]

I don’t understand people who think this. We’ve waited 5 years for ATSV I can wait 5 more years for beyond the spiderverse

[@kozy7477]

Facts

[@pn2294]

Well, some people sided with Miguel 😅

[@Cubeytheawesome]

@@pn2294eah, and he made that canon event crap up just so he could make an excuse for miles being a mistake.

[@JayMehKay]

You should see Japanese animators like MAPPA. . .

[@kaciekk]

People think Miles is a delinquent??? Huh??? You mean that sweet boy, always paying for his food AS Spiderman, caring for others, tries his best at a double life. ??????

[@Fionapollo]

EXACTLY LIKE WHERE TF ARE PPL GETTING THAT FROM SOMEONE PLS TELL ME

[@mjangelvortex]

​@@Fionapollo Karens: He makes graffiti art and listens to rap and R&B. Clearly a horrible human being.

[@commandercorl1544]

Let's be real here. We all know why they think that.

[@medtle1]

We all know why they think that. [They have thought this since the first Sony spiderman movie, but tried to denied it when that movie made a lot of money and got sequels.] It's the same people harassing, demonizing, and threatening Halle Bailey for playing ariel, the biracial black actress for playing tinkerbell, Kelly Marie tran for playing a female character in a star wars movie, the black actress who played starfire in the cw teen titans show, the black voice actresses voicing april o'neil in tmnt (even though she as originally biracial and black before they whitewashed her to "appeal/pander to readers and watchers"), and black female cosplayers for cosplaying as white female characters and anime characters (even though those anime characters are Japanese, not white). It is the same people mad that spider-woman in atsv was a pregnant black woman and that the barbie cast reminded everyone that the barbie movie is a barbie movie (not a movie that they use to demean movies featuring female characters of color, girly/feminine stories, and stories written by poc and gals just because barbie and ken are white in the movie, ken is much older than barbie, and barbie isn't played by amy schumer). It is the same guys mad that margot robbie is in movies and shows like birds of prey and barbie when they were ***ping to her when she was in male-gazey shows and movies like suicide squad and bombshell. It is the same people who claimed that the mario movie would tank because of girlboss peach but then backtrack after the movie made a lot of money and now they claim the movie was good because the main characters were white, it was a video game movie that focused on the male characters, and Chris pratt (who was the worst part of the movie). It is the same people who made memes about ruby Gillman having a "real" ariel and being "anti-woke" just because Chelsea was white, then didn't bother to show up to see the movie because the movie had a main female teenage character that was coded to be non-white. These are the same people who praised Warner studios for going against "cancel culture" when they cancelled a bunch of projects focused on poc and gals to save The Flash and then claimed the movie tanked because ezra miller was trans (even though the character played was not trans) and supergirl wasn't "hot" because she was wearing a bodysuit with 100% coverage and had short brown hair. It is the same people who demanded the Warner studios released a director's cur of a DC movie Zack Snyder was involved on, then either didn't watch the movie or said it was terrible and a waste of time when Warner studios complied and released the movie. It is the same people who claimed that astv was "anti-woke" just because it was an action superhero movie aimed at guys even though it had plenty of woke messages in there and those same people were mad that Gwen had a "protect trans kids" poster in her room and that one of miles's items showed that he supports blm.

[@ellanimation816]

@@medtle1people are attacking Halie, why, it’s a kids movie, I wasn’t interested, nightmare Sebastian and bad cgi turned me away from that movie, no Halie she actually has a good voice and acts well can’t say the same from what I’ve seen from Tristan though😂

[@themythosarchives7520]

The news has me conflicted. I loved the film, it’s one of the best films I’ve ever watched. But I’m also angry that the animators are treated so badly. Those are inhumane working conditions. The industry needs to change.

[@lennydickson8845]

I stand for the argument that there needs to be a delay for Beyond the Spiderverse. Sony, I doubt you’ll do it for them, but take your sweet time.

[@omorinintendoswitchedition]

i mean it’s basically confirmed at this point that there’ll be a delay. gwen’s va hasnt recorded her lines yet and theyve barely made any progress on it at all. and all the negative press and controversy around the mistreatment has gotta make them more wary

[@egateqa1351]

@@omorinintendoswitcheditionThat, or the Actors vs Writers Strike caused everything to be delayed.

[@lProN00bl]

They delayed to 2026

[@boyishdude1234]

Not likely the film will be delayed. Across the Spider-Verse was originally conceptualized as a two-part story, so in all likelihood much of Beyond the Spider-Verse has already been animated.

[@luminousdelight5097]

​@@boyishdude1234 afaik they pretty much confirmed they havent started yet at the point across the spiderverse released

[@chob1ts_luv]

To be honest , I feel as if the audience forgets that the animation as a whole is really draining and time consuming as some who is an animator myself, I understand that that the two movies were mind blowing (Like seriously it is) but if you think about both movies took time so I feel as the demand is a bit much. As for me I’m waiting, let them take there time!

[@jfoster8624]

Across the spider-verse only took 5 years because they split it into two movies and added more stuff too it

[@JayMehKay]

I tried animating stick figures and I could barely get 2 frames to look clean, I can’t begin to comprehend the strain of actual animation

[@chob1ts_luv]

@@JayMehKay Yeah it is a bit difficult at fist but keep practicing and you will get it!:D

[@chob1ts_luv]

@@jfoster8624 Exactly My point! I agree.

[@ghostlydari5070]

I actually really love how because Hobbie used a lot of slang some of the characters didn't quite understand. As a person who moved to the UK from a non-English speaking country, that definitely took me back to when I first came and could barely survive the day, as I did not understand half of what my classmates were saying 😂❤ That felt really real and relatable wich made it even funnier with the pop up translations!

[@waterworks_yes]

as a person who has lived in england their whole life, i often don’t get what my classmates are on about either. hope you’ve managed to adapt alright, most english slang makes zero sense and we all know it but continue to use it anyway

[@KatsyKat]

I’ve lived in the UK all my life and i still come across dialects i don’t understand XD

[@KiyoshiArts]

I honestly believe this is one of the best animated movie to ever come out. But after hearing how the animators were treated it starts to become concerning. I can’t image the conditions they had to work in, even worse having higher ups not care for animation as a whole. As much as I would love for the sequel to come out as soon as possible, I do believe delays to the movie will be for the best all things considered

[@kozy7477]

A bit of a rant- Being an animator myself, the news of how overworked the animators were for this film is really really upsetting. It’s one of the best films made recently, but if it required unethical conditions to have an end result like this, then I really can’t look at it the same. It doesn’t matter how great it was, animation is extremely time consuming. I can cheese my way through things bc I work in my own time for fun, but having high expectations of quality while also being forced to work tons of hours everyday just for your product to most likely end up scrapped is just really aggravating to me. I wish executives understood how time consuming and draining it is. If workers are put through hell, then it is less likely we will get good movies. I really hope things change

[@mileidyclass]

As a Miguel O'Hara simp, I do not claim the weirdos who fetishize him being Hispanic (especially since I'm a Hispanic woman myself, being Puerto Rican). Also, Hobie is based too. Also, as someone who kinda ships Miguel with Peter B., I approve of Miguel and Ben being shipped. That sounds based. Overall, great video. 👍

[@GreayWorks]

Hope this video is received well, sometimes I fear how defensive audiences can be at times.

[@reverseshin]

Proof that Treating your animators horribly is a Word Wide Problem.

[@joeblaster8770]

23:10 The whole point of Peter Parker was that he wasn't the "ideal man" he was a nerd where are these people coming from?

[@dairy-drink9159]

TY as a brown person I noticed this trend of ppl sexualizing POC characters, esp in particular brown characters I keep seeing them in this overly submissive and super sexualized position that ppl put them and I can’t help but feel icky about it! It keeps happing again and again and I’m scared to speak up about it! It’s feels exploitative of our skin color and over fetishized. It reminds me of the “hot exotic person” trope

[@dairy-drink9159]

Example: I was scrolling through twitter just to see someone call a group of brown character’s their “chocolate bottoms” I- WHAT

[@BlueBear13]

@@dairy-drink9159 wtf ...”chocolate bottoms” 😂 bro that’s funny lol

[@Qdrake]

I think it's less sexualizing poc's and more so the internet being horny, it's just so happens more pocs are being made that are considered attractive and as a result they ge/ sexualize. It's not really unique just something with the internet

[@joh_kun5530]

@@Qdrake So long as they have their own charisma and get anywhere too close to the realms of conventional attractiveness, the characters will get that treatment. Nothing to do with race unless they have some race based fetish or preference.

[@Polychi1998]

And? That’s the internet.

[@TheDeadmanDante]

With the information Fionapollo has presented in this video, I now feel even more conflicted about how "Beyond the Spider-verse" was delayed. For those unaware, the film was originally set to release on March 2024, until an announcement by Sony Pictures Animations that the film would be delayed to July 2026. While I'm glad that everyone working on this film is getting all the time they need to perfect the film, I'm very worried about how much of that time is being spent on Phill Lord's micromanaging and indecisiveness. While we currently can't get full insight on the production of "BTSV," whether Lord and Miller are taking the steps to draft storyboards and animatics, I can't feel like we may be looking at another instance of animators and artists being overworked.

[@aquamarine13yt]

Honestly I’ve been waiting for someone to bring up the sexualisation of Miguel. With Hobie, I absolutely love him, new fictional crush right there. I’ve seen a lot of headcanons saying that he’s a terrible person and would be toxic and awful and it just makes me really sad. The age discourse thing, I believe he’s a young adult, around 18, but seeing how passionate some people get about justifying that their ships are okay and that they can ship him with Miles for example is just upsetting and kinda weird.

[@aqualinebutbetter]

I have been thinking about the Hobie's age thing, especially since I have been seeing a lot of non-platonic Pav × Hobie and it just rubbed me the wrong way. I dunno, maybe it's just me.

[@aquamarine13yt]

@@aqualinebutbetter yeah it rubs me the wrong way too

[@amazingspiderlad]

29:55 I think what throws people off about his age is the fact that he mentions going to the pub, which implies that he's at least 18

[@Fionapollo]

There is that, but also if he is actually british now then there is a culture of underage drinking here (literally from about age 13)

[@amazingspiderlad]

@@Fionapollo While that is true, generally someone that young won't get served or even be allowed in a pub. Either way I wasn't saying that's what I think, I was just pointing out that that's probably why some people are confused about his age.

[@Phoen1xFeathers]

Hobie is definitely the type to underage drink

[@amazingspiderlad]

@@mk_gamíng0609 That's a stereotype, most of the ones I've been to absolutely do care

[@LadySkyLaaa]

This is SUUUUUCH a well made and informative video. :) I have yet to see this movie (or the first one) but hearing about the horrible treatment of animators on this movie is BEYOND frustrating. Of course, what the producer said is also equally frustrating: "If the story isn’t right, you have to keep going until it is. To the workers who felt demoralized by having to revise final renders five times in a row, I guess, welcome to making a movie.” This type of attitude towards animators is *normalized.* It needs to change.

[@kozy7477]

PREACH.

[@omorinintendoswitchedition]

amy pascal is such an idiot. you know that youre supposed to make the big changes during the drafting stage right??? thats the whole point of drafting????

[@mysticalteration498]

I plan on owning my own animation company and I strive to NOT be like the producer that was micro managing everything. And knowing I'm going to help animate most of everything, I will try my absolute best to already have storyboards, scripts, animatics, character designs, narrative structures, and the final product idea already finished and will NOT change anything unless someone has an idea and every body else is ok with changing some things around. (Plus giving people reasonable amounts of breaks, animation is hard and a tedious job, I don't need anyone feeling overworked and stressed out)

[@Superkid33]

Honestly, do it! Best of luck

[@carlosmattessich3883]

Hope you can succeed :D

[@aqualinebutbetter]

Good luck!

[@landmindssoul4636]

Though it's important to learn to delegate tasks since studio is a team. Delegating is key. It's not about being lazy but knowing how to change focus. I hope you get your studio.

[@Tails2020]

My issue with Peter B Parker's portrayal was how flipped his philosophy was compared to the first film. Before he said being spiderman was "A leap of faith" and that it's about "saving one person", which is exactly what he tries to STOP miles from doing in this film! I feel that him being included in the spider society was done out of fanservice rather than necessity, and if he was to be included he should have had the role Spiderpunk had, being the traitor on the inside

[@ligand27]

Good point, I didn't catch that. However, Peter was there when Miguel saw the fallout of a broken canon event. Granted I don't know if this was pre or post original spiderverse as I don't remember very well, but I could see that causing Peter B to be really cautious about screwing with canon events. Interested in seeing how that is resolved in the next film.

[@mimi_h]

I would counter that by pointing out that with a kid and a happy family now, Peter B has a lot more left to lose compared to where he was in the first film - I feel like it's actually a pretty normal jump that he's afraid that his reality will be destroyed when he has more reason to care about it now - making him afraid to take that leap of faith - and that change makes it hit harder, almost as a full betrayal of their shared principles, in his one-on-one with miles who took that advice in the first place

[@mjangelvortex]

@@mimi_h I agree. He was there when he saw Miguel lose his "adopted" universe and daughter. So I could easily see Peter B thinking, "If Miguel lost his family like this, I don't want to lose mine so I have to prevent this from happening to anyone else." And to add what I was saying, Peter did have multiple roles in this movie. He was there to prove to Miles (and to the audience) that Miguel wasn't lying about losing that dimension. It could have been so easy to make Miguel into a one dimensional villainous liar who was dilberately manipulating the other Spideys but the film chose not to go that route. They made Miguel into a flawed person who wants to do good but is ultimately too wrapped up in his own trauma to see how he could be negatively affecting Miles (and possibly the other Spider-People). Peter is also a character foil to Miguel and those aspects of their characters are used for both comedy and drama. They're both older Spider-Men who have a lot of experience, were fathers, and have heaploads of trauma. Peter B is a bit more jovial and playful because he is in a better spot in his life. Whereas Miguel is stoic and closed off emotionally at best (and can fly off the handle in an animalistic rage at worst). Peter B being there shows the audience how similar and how different Miguel is to the "traditional Spider-Man". Peter B was also there in the story to show how much he's changed as a person compared to the first film: he's a happy father now and he has Miles to thank for that. Miles is his inspiration. He wants his daughter to be a good kid like him. That's important character development for Peter. And Peter explaining this to Miles, at a time when Miles felt so alone and outcasted (even among other Spider-People), was a VERY important thing for Miles in the story as well. And Peter is also there to further drive one of the big overall themes the story has: sometimes "good" people can do "bad" things because of their trauma. Gwen's dad was guilty of this, Gwen herself was guilty of this, Miguel was guilty of this, and the rest of the Spider-Society was. So yes, Peter B doing that wasn't a mistake on the writers' part. I believe that was all deliberate. And I completely disagree on the notion he was only put in the movie as a secondhand thought for fanservice. He's important to the story.

[@makine8013]

So changing as a person is hypocrisy?

[@ondiiina]

@@mjangelvortex I would also add that Peter would be against Miles breaking the canon out of fear of losing him. He cares deeply about Miles so on top of wanting him to do "the right thing" (sacrificing one person to save a whole universe), he likely wanted to be sure that Miles would live. Plus him being on Miguel's side at first makes perfect sense and is the same reasoning all the Spider-people had: if sacrificing one person means saving everyone, then so be it. It's a classic super-hero dilemma on top of a classic Spiderman mentality (sacrificing yourself/your happiness for the greater good). It makes him multi-dimensional. Even if it were hypocrisy, him changing his mind or being a hypocrite makes him flawed and not a flat character. It'd make him human!

[@toastella6650]

I stand behind the idea that good art should not cost people their health. I would much, much rather wait more time for something where I know that all the artists were taken care of versus watching something that was hammered on for a short amount of time and dangerously difficult to work on.

[@mickymcbryan4814]

I’m mixed, and my dad was an Caribbean indigenous/Black/North Irish in East London during the Thatcher administration. He tells me all the time about all the “big brothers” he had around his town who were basically all Jamaican, and Trinidadian and Tobagonian punks and anarchists who took care of the area and the people. They ran food drives, protested, patrolled areas police wouldn’t to help stop home invasions. Seeing a Jaimacan cockney punk rocker with a lot of nods to anarchist values as spider man, literally it’s enough to bring me to tears. I could totally see Hobie Brown being one of those east end (big brothers) my dad talks about

[@strikerwott1222]

AAAAAAA this drawing came out absolutely incredibly!!! Amazing job with it!!! Across the Spider-Verse was absolutely amazing (I love the LEGO scenes so so much especially), and the new characters are great!! However, I feel so awful for the people that were mistreated behind the scenes, and I really hope the work environment is improved and becomes much better soon. I'll keep on saying it, animators deserve much much better.

[@jacoblee21]

HOLY HELL!! This is one wild ride when it comes to this video. Not only that, but the fact that all of this craziness has happened DURING the production process is truly a sight to behold. Amazing work on the video, but I will say that these animators deserve to be treated fairly. My head hurts... xD

[@sarispooks6366]

funfact about hobi brown in the original spiderman and cartoon he was the prowler he is a prowler varreint and like with miles idk i love it

[@LadyCay129]

Upset that it’s gonna be 3 years until BTSV, but very content if it means a better film and more ethical work practices

[@Phoen1xFeathers]

There have been no official delays yet all dates youve heard so far are rumours

[@mayoral_fabrication]

Just quick. Thanks for saying Latin and not latinx love you for that

[@Achieme]

As a person who loves to draw OC i hate hearing that animators have to go through so much BS to the point of exhaustion and even death. This is one of the many reasons why I wouldn't want to become an animator, all the high demand and long work hours can impact anyone's mental health even comic/manga artist go through similar problems. I'm pretty sure studios hardly pay them unless I'm wrong but still a harsh environment to endure, animators will always have my respect

[@King_Eris]

off topic but your spider punck drawing is fire. it looks amazing

[@Fionapollo]

Thank you!!! It was so much fun to just kinda let loose & do whatever in an art piece! 😄

[@bigiron1311]

I want spiderverse 3. I want it now. I don’t NEED it. Those artists NEED the space to live well and work well, not only for a quality product but also for human decency’s sake?? I fucking loved the spiderverse movies! But artists deserve respect! People deserve respect!

[@adastic]

I don't know if I agree about Miguel's design supposed to be attractive, but that's more of a I don't know what the philosophy was in making him. Entirely willing to be wrong, and the point I was trying to make is it is possible to make a character attractive without intending to do so. No matter what, love the video so far!

[@SillyandgoofyAnim8or]

omg i cant believe the worst part of this movie is CAPITALISM!! who could have predicted this?

[@kamilululu2515]

Hobie, probably

[@justdracir8197]

Yeah i was wondering during watching the movie in the cinema if the animators are getting paid / treated well because it´s insane what they delivered there. Unfortunately it seems i was right Q.Q

[@jeremyyates1026]

Yep it sucks its kinda the go to in animation and even the game industry. Not getting paid enough and overworking the artists and others involved. It's the main reason I decided to stop aiming for animation and go towards comics instead. I wouldn't make it in that industry atleast then I can generally do it on my terms. Hopefully one day the industry will change.

[@BaobhanloreArt]

I might just add a couple technical points and corrections that don't matter as much in the long run but I'm autistic and details are kind of my bread and butter. Firstly, Miguel may not actually be half Irish genetically. He is legally but his mother actually cheated on his Dad with his and later Miguel's boss Tyler Stone, and we're not sure about his ethnicity. Comics are complicated I guess lol. Secondly, I also think a lot of artists actually have a racism issue in regards to Miguel and not just fetishism. People whitewash Miguel all the time. They give him Eurocentric features and justify it by saying he's half Irish (which again technically isn't true when talking about genetics) but even if it was, nobody argues that Zendaya is white or Lukas Arnold is black because of their biraciality. Miguel is visibly brown and has brown features. And it's so telling that these people sexualising his identity will go out of their way to make him light skinned and white presenting but also sexualise his hispanic identity. Because it's just the idea of the "exotic Latine" that they like but they don't actually want to represent a large group of Latine people. They'd rather erase what little representation they actually have for their sexual desires than accept Miguel for who he is and how he's portrayed. There's a huge issue of light skinned Latine folk being overrepresented in media to the point where non Latine people like Ronni Hawk can pretend to be Latine, with brown Latines being stereotypes and afro Latines having little to no representation besides Miles, and this is just an example of that. But yeah, great video and it's important to have these discussions.

[@sithdude2436]

You must be in some very different fandom spaces than I am, because Miles and Gwen's romance probably the second most talked about part of the movie (at least on the Spider-Man subreddit) after Miguel and Canon Events. The only other ship I've seen with any sort of traction is Peni x Miles, but the comments on every piece of ship art are always about how people don’t think it makes sense. I have definitely noticed oversexualization of some of the Spanish-speaking characters (Rio and Miguel), though. Also glad to hear my suspicions that Spot was Tumblr sexyman material confirmed, and that Beyond the Spider-Verse was delayed.

[@TheGoldenCapMan]

Ok the Peter B Parker segment is really funny with how you mentioned the people aren't happy with how he is portrayed because one scroll in the comic community, when they announced that Peter was finally married and had a daughter, and you will see how excited comic spidey fans were on the news. We have waited for so long for Peter to be married again and moved forward in his life and not be in this constant cycle, so seeing that was so refreshing for us.

[@aninamated3984]

I loved the movie and look forward to part 3 already, but I also completely support the animators taking their time on it. Good art takes time and people need to rest to make good art. It'll be worth the wait

[@davidzhu4301]

I have a friend who worked on the film as an animator, and she post something on social media actually defending the company and called her co-workers who stood up ungrateful, I was pretty angry at the post before, but as time pass on, I realized I shouldn't judge her, I don't know what really happened and she might be under a lot of pressure to keep her job (I am speculating, she has since deleted the post), but I hope animation companies treat their employees better and hopefully things like this will never happen again.

[@roselynyoung3805]

Looking forward to the kid later growing up and spilling the beans on how it was working with his liaisons, and the whole child labor bit. I kid partially because this kid (better) may be getting some good royalties for his work in that one scene, but also I wonder just the legal logistics that included 👀👀 seriously hope for the success of that kid though, talented bugger ain't he?

[@gamerkingfmc863]

This is a GREAT informative video. Ever since I heard about this, I was just stunned because my favorite movie of the year has abused it's animators heavily. I'm not an animator, but I drew a lot of drawings and those took WEEKS to a MONTH to do. So I would rather wait for the third one because the animators need a HUGE break after this movie.

[@Toa_general]

16:51 Miguel and Hobie have faced so much mischaracterising that it is scary, the worse thing is, it’s because of the fact they are two people of colour. All the other characters have faced bad mischaracterising but those two…I need pepper spray for the fandom due to them And miles being headcanoned to steal things??? That’s so random I haven’t heard of that before, haven’t seen it, I’m glad I haven’t see that before Oh with Pav I am so mad about what the fandom did to him, making him entirely a tea joke??? He literally talks about in the film about how non Indian people put Indian people and their culture to these stereotypes which include “chai tea” and that feminine Pav?gross

[@BastionUnity]

24:18 "Why am I saying somehow? I might be gay, but I still have eyes" I'm sorry, but I was NOT prepared for that!

[@Fionapollo]

Afffhdjgfj apparently attractive men turn into pixelated blobs to ppl who aren't actually attracted to them

[@discordiacreates6669]

I wanted to say something about that as well because it was very much unexpected but welcome lol. Like I haven't been following any Spiderverse stuff but I still felt that comment in general, like yeah... One can admit someone is good looking without being personally attracted to them and I've got that a few times with other characters so thanks lol

[@kootunesscrewy]

They say that Spiderverse started this cartoon/advance-looking CGI animation style, yet I've seen Pocoyo done this before, lol. Spiderverse famously popularized it and made it more advanced, but it didn't really changed animation.

[@mjangelvortex]

Yeah, the blend of 2D and 3D existed long before Spider-Verse. That's just the movie that popularized it.

[@_kaleido]

Seeing the name “Pocoyo” dropkicked me 12 years into the past LOL but yes you’re right, ITSV just made stylized 3D more normalized in theatrical animation.

[@mikhaelgribkov4117]

Yeah, it's honestly baffling when TMNT 2012 had a lot of animation gags with combining 2d with 3d and Nerd Corps Entertainment were mastering that since 2004. 2007 Storm Hawks still looks pretty good on a budget.

[@kootunesscrewy]

@@mikhaelgribkov4117 Actually, since 2007. Their first cartoon was entirely hand-drawn.

[@aqualinebutbetter]

For anyone wondering about the shoelace code in punk: White: White Supremacy Red: Neo-Nazi Blue: Anti-Cop Yellow: Anti-Racism Purple: Pro LGBTQ+ Black: No Affiliation Keep in mind, some people may have White and Red shoelaces but they aren't punks. Some people don't know, and sometimes the shoelace code can change depending on your area.

[@mrj1897]

Gotta love when businesses see the passion in a product, their first reaction to it is to crack the whip and force the staff to work harder, Executives make mr krabs blush sometimes Istg

[@VampireQueenAmy]

The only thing close to illegal miles does is vandalism and thats a completely harmless thing (as far as i know)

[@Temperans]

"Delinquent streak" does not mean its harmful, just that he does stuff that is not entirely "following the rules". Taking stuff and just dropping the money, graffiti, the way he ignores orders, etc. Yeah he is not doing any harm but he is no saint either, hence a "deliquent streak".

[@Temperans]

Regarding the animation being hard. Animation almost always runs into delays and crunch because there is so much that goes on. You cannot just add more time because that means more money, you also cannot just add more people because that might actually back fire. So you are left just doing what you can with the time and budget that you have. There is the concern of "just starting everything again if something is wrong" making it worse for artists who just want to do their thing. But then it is also the job of the director to say what should be redone because something feels wrong. Its not unreasonable to have 1 director in charge of making sure everything looks good, while you have other making sure the individual parts looks good. That attention to detail helps a lot to make sure you have a consistent narrative and imagery. But like I said, that type of movie making will feel bad for the animators who had their work be redone because something didn't work. It will of course also feel bad later on when the inevitable time crunch arrives. Idk it feels to me like a case of trying to balanced a lot of opposing goals and doing what is best at the time.

[@misaeldoesanimation4408]

The whole miguel situation is weird for me. I'm a brown skin mexican guy, and whenever i see someone who is like me being represented on the big screen and fans receiving them well, it always makes me happy. If people find him attractive I'm all for it because as long as it's not racism I'm all for people loving this character. I also understand when it can go too far

[@mileidyclass]

Tbh some comments here and on the community post make me feel bad for finding him attractive, like I'm a bad person somehow, even though I don't fetishize his Hispanicness/Mexican-ness and don't really feel the need to (also, keep in mind I'm Puerto Rican, so that could be part of it, Idk). I'll admit I'm pretty obsessed, but that's probably because he and the Spiderverse movies are my current hyperfixation (for context, I have Autism), along with me just generally liking them, but the hyperfixation makes me more obsessive, and I can't really control it. I know it's probably silly to feel called out by these comments, especially when they wouldn't or most likely wouldn't even apply to me, but still. I guess I'm scared of being caught in the crossfire or labled as "problematic" or "cringe" just for my interests/hyperfixation/who I'm (sexually/romantically) attracted to.

[@mjangelvortex]

@@mileidyclass No, I get how you feel. I feel the exact same way too (even though I'm mixed Latina myself).

[@santiagocorbo4327]

Sooo people is talking a lot of cool things on comments, but to not repeat them I wanna talk about that Cheek kiss that Milles gives his mom. That moment was the most latin thing I have ever seen in a movie, Im from Uruguay and even here we say goodbye to our moms in that way. Also, latin america is very diverse and big so when people form USA write characters from "Latin America" they tend to focus on people from Central America forgetting all along that is very different from people that live on south, like me. So as time has passed we have an identity crisis in media where we do not feel part of this comunity, even if we are! But again, that Cheek kiss is one of thouse things that unite us all... and it was an awsome feeling to feel part of.

[@peepawcow8288]

I talked about this so I will mention it here but I am at the 13:07 mark and I feel like this behavior is out of pattern and a big reason why feels like audience demand. as, given that demand was so high, it was likely there was not just pressure on the animation team, but the entirety of those working on the project to make it as flawless and perfect as it could be, which can result in a lot of unnesscessary actions taken by management. I don't think this is regular and it is simply because of how many people banked on the idea of spiderverse's sequel being as good as it was, and it is majorly good, but I think there lies the problem : great expectations can be a lot. so while the way that lord miller acted is really unfair to those around them, as it led to a lot of problems and heartache, I do feel like, we should all be respectful to the animators and those managing this film, because if we do so, it'll allow people to better work within a way that doesn't lie a lot of pressure, and it is a major amount of pressure for a film coming from something that changed the flow of animation, and not only that, stories for spider-man and super hero films. there's a lot in this and I do appreciate that people are looking out for the animators, I, myself, am an artist as well and aspiring to maybe be a comic artist or animator, but I do feel like to not acknowledge what maybe was going on in the head of the management, not just the animation teams, is really a one-way perspective which I kind of don't like to see from your content, if I am being honest. because I endorse a lot of what you're saying and I do agree, but I feel like some of what happened is a lot more than that and I'd like to see on whether or not this is a pattern from previous films these people have worked on because it would likely let it be known if this is just something that is accepted and from that point, I would like it to be taken with scrutiny, but again, these are people, and people do have minds of their own so while we cannot assume what was going on in their heads fully, we can make basis assumptions that do provide a good explanation that, things weren't right. I do hope beyond the spiderverse will see the animators AND the management be better, the vulture article I do think needed to happen so that way this behavior could stop in its' tracks, but I would rather this film take longer than nine months, because I do not believe that is enough, and I think given the previous deadline for the film, this sequel we're seeing, it is likely that maybe that really wasn't good enough in general for what these people had envisioned for. if hobie brown's animation took two years, I'd say I would like beyond the spiderverse to take longer so people can have time to figure out the animation and get to the root of where the story should go. maybe it is naive to want to perceive the management in a better light, but I do believe it is the right thing to do, because I don't think anyone had as good as a time, not just the animators, but writers, those working on the music, etc. It is a lot for these people to deal with. I just hope maybe it will be reassuring to know this movie was a success in their eyes, so they won't burden themselves too much. and likely considering the strike with actors and writers, it might just take that break it needs to simmer regardless as given people really do deserve more, and I feel like tis production for spiderverse is an example of how there is more to gain through better working conditions, not just on the part of animators, but actors and writers, everyone as a whole. because with the way things are, a lot of movies are flopping because of low effort and love given to them, or corporate not promoting them well enough, or streaming just really being a detriment, even if it is needed within a time of pandemics and etc. I hope this doesn't come off as malicious or me being upset at the video, I'm just more hoping people to consider not one perspective, but multiple. /gen /lh ( note, I use tone tags given I have ADHD )

[@lafolleauxmostisma]

Hobie is my favorite character of the movie and I like how you said that in the VO he's using true british slang that's always a nice detail. I said this cuz I saw the movie in the french canadian dub and his voice was so weird!! It was like a quebecois trying so hard to do a french accent 😭

[@Shinigami88X1]

About Miles and Margo...its because not alot of people like interracial pairings esspeciallly when its with black person. Even Into the Spiderverse was suppose to be an romance with Miles and Gwen but backed off.

[@tsuntsunsweetie]

Great insight Fiona! And the artwork looks fantastic!! Thanks for the vid! ❤

[@hakimitus]

I really enjoyed this video. Very insightful, thoughtful, and considerate observations made.

[@jleahy]

25:24 I think the issue with Miguel is also tied into the idea of mestizo folks being idealized…which is something to look into 🤔

[@ZeldaMaster64]

The Spider-Punk picture looks amazing! Can't wait to get my hands on Across the Spider-verse and re-watch it. The animators who did the scenes did an amazing job, and hopefully they're treated with more respect. Also, your character art reminds me of Naru from Sailor Moon

[@tinibuilds3398]

Just saying as a punk, probably shouldn't use sex pistols as an example, don't blame you for it but the band isn't a good example due to a bunch of controversies revolving around them basically being not good people.

[@Fionapollo]

Yeah that's fair, they were just the first band that came to mind

[@tinibuilds3398]

@@Fionapollo that's fair, the band is kind of touchy in the community and it kind of sucks that they are one of the more well known punk bands

[@Temperans]

Wait how is that not a good example? Although yeah the controversies are bad, she was commenting on the imagery. Its like saying that X looks like Y is a bad example because Y is bad.

[@Chaos_Fantasmic]

I've seen so many ppl saying "It's not that bad, if they can do it before they can do it again!!" Like excuse me?! Have you ever animated a movie with animation that detailed and good!? No, you have not! If y'all can wait 5 years for a sequel y'all can wait 5 more

[@silveramyknux241]

Peter having a child is surreal, knowing that another Spider-Man k***ed his wife when trying to have a child, because of his spider genes.

[@malachimccarty6270]

This movie is genuinely insane. It's literally my favorite movie of all time, which I find almost impossible since my favorite movie before this was Coraline.

[@SuperRandoms.]

Can we talk about the fact that covid happened while the were working on it

[@bevinbrand4637]

Great video!

[@Tr7.713]

I feel like beyond should be delayed 3-4 years, and personally, i would not mind this as a film that has roughly the same amount of animation, is coming in less than a year, which will be grueling for the animators

[@felixheitzer2262]

Thanks for the vid 👍

[@joshyboyyy]

33:30 is a shitpost. There are multiple spelling errors in the "announcement" such as "promse". Also the mention of a panic attack at the end is a joke on animation twitter LOL

[@nomadrl91x]

on that topic of workers burnout, you're not exempt from it, take the breaks and time you need ^_^ your videos are lovely and insightful. take care fionapollo

[@justdracir8197]

18:40 i think the deliquent part is kinda applying and kinda not SPOILER: First off we had his uncle who was in fact affiliated with crime. But he also was the prowler. And at the end of Across SpiderVerse we saw that miles was the prowler in that other unisverse while also his dad died during some event.

[@erikroman1880]

Miguel's suit is a hologram

[@devofficialchannel]

First part: I feel that it would be for the best if Beyond the Spider-Verse was delayed and to give more time for animators to work on the film. I'm just upset with the current mistreatment of animators and VFX artists who get mistreated by their employers. Second part: 20:46 In regards to Gwen being afraid of repeating a "Gwen Stacy death", I'm assuming she's afraid of MILES dying instead of herself. In her own universe, Gwen has her own "Gwen"...in the form of alternate Peter Parker who became the Lizard. 24:33 I believe that while Miguel does have a hologram suit, his "webs" are also made of lasers and are still capable of interacting with hard objects, so it's not like Miguel's somehow naked since the hologram probably solidifies all over his body and becomes a "cloth". 25:40 Pavitr Prabhakar is best character. I love that he's played by the same guy who plays Dopinder. (Still don't like the idea of fans infantilising him or dumbing him down just because of his cheery attitude) 27:31 Hobie Brown is also great and I feel like he's very much how I imagined Londoners actually. And I like that in this film, they surprisingly didn't demonise anarchism as just "mindless chaos" and much of his anarchist takes do show up with how he views the Spider-Society and stealing and rebuilding tech to make his own watches. Third part: I feel like art in general isn't something that can (or even should imo) be made by some massive industry since art generally has a more "lifelike" and "imaginative" touch which isn't replaceable.

[@DWN037]

For a REAL hot second I thought Spider-Noir was going to be mentioned when "Problematic Headcanons" were brought up and I would've been so mad

[@keo_bas]

I really wish folks took the time to understand how much work goes into these production. whether its triple A blockbuster, or one shot short film.

[@DanielAngArt]

Awesome takes and analysis, Fiona!

[@TheFuntimeCrew]

"I might be gay but I still have eyes". That made my lungs go inside out. That was random...

[@iHateFridays]

Great video!! It really sucks about the animators, not even movies with love put into them are without suffering :(

[@luigiboi4244]

I think an important reason why people are so thirsty for Miguel O'Hara is his voice actor, Oscar Isaac. For those who don't know his filmography, he's Poe Dameron in the Sequel Trilogy, Apocalypse in X-Men Apocalypse, and Marc Spector/Steven Grant/Jake Lockley in Marvel's Moon Knight. The dude just screams sexy AF.

[@bbexpress]

i definitely see the trans idea for gwen. Hell, i related to her and im bisexual and NOT cis. Im still not trans though. I also related to Miles for his problem that he cannot tell his parents that he is Spiderman. I have not been able to tell my friends/family everything, but the thing I struggled with the most was telling them im not cis/straight. I just couldn’t, it was too hard. I related to that problem he had sm that i cried multiple times BC i saw myself in him. If LGBTQ+ kids wanna see themselves in a character that isn’t LGBTQ+, who cares. the people against that idea are so hung up on her not being trans are not realizing how many trans kids would love that spidergwen is trans. I have seen headcanons/ideas that i dont agree with either, but i realize how many people would love said headcanon/idea, and therefore i shut up. Im not gonna die on the hill, and im gonna let others have their opinions.

[@Phoen1xFeathers]

Your either cis or trans. Cis is remaining as your agab while trans is anything under the umbrella of being different from your agab (assigned gender at birth)

[@bbexpress]

@@Phoen1xFeathers I know, i am under the umbrella but im not trans like gwen could be. that’s what i was talking abt however i appreciate that!

[@Phoen1xFeathers]

@@bbexpress makes sense, np!

[@discordiacreates6669]

​@@Phoen1xFeathersor you don't fall under either bianary gender as nonbianary, agender or genderfluid, which I think are all valid identities that can say they're not cis since they technically aren't, trans is just the furthest extreme of a spectrum imo

[@thescarceonell4926]

"And if your unsure just go with blue" 🤣🤣🤣

[@GDRhythmic]

10:47 he became president business basically. The VILLAIN of a movie he directed. Good grief

[@phangkuanhoong7967]

A director that cannot visualise the scene until he sees the finished work, is unfit to be an animation director.

[@SophieSelberg-bk2xy]

I hate the Hobie x Pavitr ship because in the movie Hobie was 18 and Pavitr was 14

[@neigeshusband5327]

What? Isn't Pavvy 16?

[@Galatea_ZX]

I personally love this movie a lot and it might be my favorite movie of the year, but it sucks that sony crunched the animators to this extent. I hope beyond gets the time and love it deserves as much as the first two films… these movies were made as a love letter to spider-man, the mythos, the history and with a strong sense of story telling on top of all this.

[@leilarandall9518]

Legit my favorite Miguel ship is him with LEGO Spider-Man

[@FBI_Master]

So, Lord became Lord Business with his micromanagers, ironic.

[@KamillsWorld]

I was glad they the date was delayed for the 3rd movie to come out, not only so its not rushed but because too much of it at one time people will get bored of it and then hate on it like the minions

[@melasnexperience]

I really want to see this movie, but between (a) the working conditions, (b) the fandom response to the working conditions, & (c) the fandom responses/interpretations to the characters being even more detached from the film itself than usual (for obvious reasons that are simply too "rude" to name), I have had that enthusiasm significantly dampened. The internet does a darn good job of turning even the most interesting & high quality things into ridiculous mine fields that just make me want to avoid them, even if I wanted to engage with them at first.

[@DeviousDryad]

We all know the one true Miguel ship is Miguel x Lego Spider-Man

[@Crystalcreates333]

i would join an animation union in new york so fast

[@robodress4051]

33:25 Hey, I wasn't able to find a source for the claim that the movie got delayed to 2026. Any news articles about a potential delay are just speculation and that image seems to be a joke posted by some twitter user (the blu-ray for the new film has a short where "the silly little guy" Miles experiences "a realistic depiction of a panic attack"??? Have I missed something?

[@GustavoSuperSonic2001]

I've work as intern in animation and comic industry while studying university, and yeah I understand. Is some amazing undertaking and overwhelming amount of work and bad payment. And yeah this is not the first time has ever happened, just is the first time is going this public awareness in years. Kinda funny

[@mozax8118]

I liked the movie, loved the animation and character moments, but found it overall unimpressive. But I really hated how these animators were treated because of the directors lack of concrete vision.

[@Urvy1A]

Seth Rogen learned about this, and he treated the TMNT Mutant Mayhem animators well and didn’t overwork them.

[@darkroninmarvel]

Actually I've seen people being harshly critical towards Peter and Jessica, calling them irresponsible in their own way when it comes to handling children

[@JJNero]

Honestly, Jessica definitely. I don't know why she thinks it was alright to put herself and her unborn child in danger by willingly fighting villains like Renaissance vulture that involved explosions and straining to stop a helicopter from falling. But Peter less so. He didn't come in with his daughter with the intentions of fighting or really doing anything that would put in her harm. And when conflict did break out, he wasn't in the forefront of it. He was trying to peacefully revolve it by talking it out with Miles.

[@cureaurora7591]

I felt weird seeing Jess and Peter on screen like this because pregnancy is dangerous for the body and it can lead to many complications like placental abruption. That's how I knew the ones making the story didn't know anything about our body and they still think pregnancy is nothing serious in 2023. For Peter and Mayday I was worried because in my opinion it was just the cliché of dads being careless with their children and putting them danger. Yes it was funny and cute but I couldn't help feeling uneasy 😅 I would have felt a bit better if she was at least 4 or 5.

[@mjangelvortex]

Or, hear me out here, she has superpowers and could probably handle things that would otherwise be dangerous to people without powers.

[@fullmoonhowlpro]

i believe that post about them delaying it is fake cos i havent seen any official accounts say it has been delayed to 2026.

[@epicandpila]

lets be real here, miles morales is now the new goat for marvel like shoot he's getting rumors about his own live action movie like come on you kinda agree with me on this one fionapollo

[@bookishdelight]

(I was very curious as to how Hobie (the GOAT) was going to go over with UK viewers; guess I have an answer 😁) Don't have the time to say everything I want on this video, so just going to go with "great job." Also, appreciate you shouting out the Vancouver peeps.✌️ They fightin'!

[@datenegassie]

33:25 Pretty sure that's a parody post. The part stating "the short The Spider Within where you can see Miles having a realistic depiction of a panic attack", while accurate to what I've heard, is a common meme on animation twitter and not how a marketing department would sell it. And calling Miles a "silly little guy" is weird. And it's missing the colons between "Spider-Man" and "Into/Across the Spider-Verse" which marketing would never do. Besides, I haven't heard anywhere else about this delay. (Though I do hope it gets delayed for the animators' sake)

[@NotThisAnonymous]

33:31 I’m pretty sure that letter isn’t real

[@Fionapollo]

Damn, turns out you were right 🤦‍♀️ Thanks for mentioning it, I'll write up a pinned comment once i have a sec

[@ClumsySquid]

Now I feel so bad for not liking the movie, because everyone apparently was worked almost to death to make it.

[@ActualLadyLuck]

I like Miguel o'hara but how the way the fandom became obsessed with him and sexualised the man a lot, It made me very uncomfortable nowadays..

[@danielgudinojuarez6729]

Because of that news report, I am gonna not watch or support across and beyond the spider verse!!! The animators at Sony image works need to kick out Lord and Miller as producers!!