AD&D 1e Movement

[@docsavage8640]

Great channel. Love to see 1st edition videos in particular. Still the best edition. Nothing tops 1st edition DMG.

[@zantharian57]

2nd edition is better because it's basically 1e with magic-user schools, cleric domains, and thief skill allocation.

[@docsavage8640]

😆 🤣 😂 good one, I almost thought you were serious

[@CMacK1294]

Worthy of note. 1E generally considers 3 medium creatures to fit the front rank in a10' hallway. So you should assume each grid is roughly 3.333 feet, or just call it about 3 feet if you're using a grid. I've found this works wonderfully in modelling the scale detailed in the books. It also means your gobins are pulling about 2 squares of movement per segment, and an unarmored unencumbered player about 4.

[@jasoncarpenter5974]

In AD&D 1e the grid was 3.33’ per square and not 5’ because the map was usually 1 square equals 10’. AD&D operated with two scales, floor scale and height scale and they were different. This is according to the DMG. So it was very simple. In a segment the PC’s could move about 4 inches.

[@plumfun6750]

Just make each "square" equivalent to 1 meter (or yard; basically, 3'). Problem solved. You're welcome. :) .. Also, for all those thinking it's "complex and stuff"...it really isn't because the majority of the time the DM and Players only whip out the specific X-feet-per-segment when it REALLY matters. If it's "The goblins move towards you, spears at the ready"... "OK, well, Rex the Ranger will shoot his bow, and Winowna the Wizard will cast Magic Missile. The rest of us move up to meet the goblins". That's more common a situation, meaning the DM just figures out "Ok, shoot your bow and cast your spell, then we'll do the melee". Is that "as per the combat rules"? Nope. But...1e wasn't so much about "sticking to the rules" as "using the rules when appropriate". .. But, if it was a climactic moment, where individual feet and single seconds MIGHT make a huge difference...that's when you whip out the specific rules to see what is best used to adjudicate fairly. .. Basically, in 1e, it was mostly "Wing it...unless something dramatic, significant and important is happening and everyone wants more specific tactical choices". .. PS: "6 miles in half a day".... dude. Go put on some football equipment, grab a snow shovel, toss on some cowboy boots, and heft up 35lb of camping equipment on your back...then head off cross-country through a forest and into the hills, no trails or roads allowed. Now tell me if going 6 miles in half a day is "slow". ;)

[@CraftDD]

Thanks for the comment. I do intend to create a follow up video on movement, as I think I left out some important bits and focused on my "special case" way too much.

[@michaelradzichovsky9366]

Also, you have take into account that back then that virtually all mapping was done on a scale of one square being equivalent to ten feet.

[@CraftDD]

Very true. Thanks for the comment

[@Bluemooism]

Square is 3 feet. Segments for figuring out timing rounds for combat.

[@Tysto]

Old-school systems aren't like modern systems. You don't count squares in combat. Until 3e, movement rate was based on creeping thru a dungeon, looking for traps and secret doors. The only movement rule for combat is "You can move half your movement rate and still attack." That's because virtually anybody can move virtually anywhere in virtually any room in a one-minute combat round.

[@TheEldarGuy]

Ok. Game time has three categories: Segment = 6 seconds Round = 10 segments = 1 minute Turn = 10 rounds = 10 minutes Putting the Survival Guide aside for now (all of that contains optional rules - let's keep it core for now) A character with 9" move can move 90' in a combat round, but will forgo any other action for that round. In the example you have with the white counters vs blue counters, both sides would declare their actions, which could be missile, magic, etc. If both sides moved to engage, each character could move up to their full move rate of inches x 10s of feet. The 9" move becomes 90 feet. The character cannot attack or perform any other action. This becomes a dance between who is going to position in order to attack with as little response. There is a strategy in this. There is also an order to how combat is initiated. Movement and charging is before standard attacks, missile and magic is before movement, and so on. You can't move 3' fire the bow, then move 3' back. One melee round is a minute of action, there is a swirling melee concept quite unique to AD&D 1st edition. When a player says "I move 100feet", the character is sliding to the side, keeping a low profile, moving, rolling, and possibly jumping over things. Moving forward, while keeping the defences up. Combat (irrespective of where it is) and any critical action is performed using rounds and segments. While movement outside and the range of missile and magic is expanded to 10s of yards (30 feet) per inch, combat reverts to rounds. That now that has a 50' dungeon short range, is now 50 yards in an open field (150'). Anyway... I could go on and recite chapter and verse, but you see the point I'm making. I have found that using the 5e dungeon tiles, 3' for each square is the better ratio for 25mm to 32mm models/tokens. Then you also get the most use of weapon length, space required, and speed factors.

[@docsavage8640]

Everyone seems to forget that a combat round is a lot of time. Imagine a full minute of fighting. The rules already assume you're doing your best to avoid being hit so descriptors of how you're attacking really have no meaning. It's already abstracted into the fact that you're at least a veteran and know what you're doing.

[@kaylaa2204]

To be fair you say the distance for miles per day is slow… but as you said that’s goblins that people in hefty armor that’s hard to move in. I don’t know if you’ve ever worn armor before but it’s heavy and not quite like moving in your normal clothes. I don’t care how athletic you are, armors gonna slow you down.

[@jonathanrector]

Stumbling into this video (thank you by the way), where did you get these flat mini's? They look PERFECT and I'd love to make/get some of my own.

[@CraftDD]

Regarding the minis, I made them with a couple of cheap items from Amazon. I forget where I got the idea, but they are 1 inch round epoxy resin domes and a magnet stuck together with a picture sandwiched in between.

[@Qcorbilliowe]

What does in mead when a move rate is something like "8/18"

[@dereklong801]

In 1E you didn't play in segments, you played in rounds. Segments only really came into play in surprise and odd cases like casting time vs. weapon speed to resolve which comes first when the spellcaster is about to get chopped.

[@lloydbrown2713]

According to the rules--including published examples of play--combat is always in rounds except for surprise. Gygax didn't do this. Jim Ward didn't do this. Len Lakofka didn't do this. Tim Kask didn't do this. Frank Mentzer didn't do this. That's not speculation on my part--Jim, Frank, and Tim are on Facebook and available for discussion. Len was, but he passed away a couple of months ago.

[@CraftDD]

I find it interesting that so many people played by different rules. Including the luminaries of the game. I wonder if it stems from lots of people house ruling how time works. I personally like the alternative initiative rule offered on Page 62 of the Efreet DMG where every PC gets to act on a different segment. I do have all of the monsters act on the same segment to speed things up. The game is about the PCs and not the monsters after all. I find that it makes combat much more interesting when things are fluid. So the combat round is broken into segments. And people act on a given segment, or multiple segments if they have more than one attack routine. The cool thing about breaking movement across the segments is that there is more of a chance that the PC can catch the monster or the monster might escape or something else comes up to offer a combat complication. Makes it feel less like Risk and more like anything can happen. Just like in a real fight. Some argue that it slows thing down, but if you use the moral rules combat is still over pretty quickly. Thanks for commenting!

[@CraftDD]

And of course it only works if the players first declare their actions that they will be moving. That way we can track where they are at any given segment of the round. And of course it isn’t always important, especially if they are just dashing headlong at the enemy. Where it really gets important is if the thief is trying to sneak around and the DM wants to track exactly where he is in relation to others to see if he gets smelled.

[@lloydbrown2713]

@@CraftDD Do you mean the section on page 62 where it talks about surprise? And it then says "Once surprise segments are over, melee proceeds normally on around-by-round basis."

[@CraftDD]

Personally I like to have each character get a segment, but that’s personal preference. Combat is still happening in rounds though whether the whole party is going in the same segment or being broken out. It’s only simultaneous within the same segment. (Initiative is tied). Fighters with more than one attack routine go on multiple segments in the same round. Per page 62 you roll initiative for your whole side with a d6 and high roll wins. Player roll indicates segment that NPCs melee and missile attacks happen and DMs roll indicates segment that the PCs melee and missile attacks occur. And of course spellcasters state spells before initiative is rolled. It really is that simple. Yes combat is done in rounds broken up into segments. The segments determines what happens when and doesn’t just apply to surprise, although it definitely applies there as well. Most of the time surprise won’t come into play anyway. Weapon speed comes into play if both PCs and NPCs are in the same segment. Spellcasters spells go off in the segment after they cast them as per GG no spell has a casting time of zero.

[@henrykorvus6954]

If this seemed a little to complex and clunky, then get Advanced OSE (Old School Essentials), it's streamlined, it's elegant, and makes more sense.

[@namelessjedi2242]

Regarding Osric, it’s only fair to mention that it was originally written as a means to legally publish AD&D compatible modules, etc. so if it seems less complete in some areas that is because everyone who originally was using it already had the AD&D game. Osric served mainly as an “excuse” so to speak, to publish other works. It’s taken on a life beyond that in the years since, however.

[@CraftDD]

I've heard that about OSRIC lately. I've also heard that there was some issues between the versions. One nice thing is that it does explain everything in nice clear language without the Gygaxian prose. A definite help to the uninitiated.

[@user-pg3pe4gx4p]

Why 1” = 5 foot grid? We used a 10’ by 10’ grid measuring 3 inches. Figures were based on 1” by 1” base, so 3 figures could walk abreast down a 10 foot wide corridor. We broke our combat into segments. So a human could move 12’ and attack. We made special rulers.

[@PatriceBoivin]

Old guy here, I don't think the Wilderness Survival Guide sold much, most people didn't worry about outside as much. I had never heard of it. Monster Manual II and Unearthed Arcana was probably where people stopped buying books. Most people bought modules and played them. Remember initially D&D was about dungeons, not wandering around outside. Dungeon Geomorphs, the random dungeon generation tables in the DM's Guide, etc. When Rolemaster started publishing beautiful maps of areas of Middle-Earth people started thinking maybe wandering outside could be interesting too, not just go back and forth between the local base (village, hamlet, town) and the dungeon tunnels. Though the characters in Gary Gygax's novels in Greyhawk spent much of their time walking around in the wilderness. Most people also ignored the encumbrance rules. Imagine walking around with 1,000 gold pieces. How much would that weigh? How fast could characters move carrying that?

[@sebbonxxsebbon6824]

1000 gold was 100 pounds in 1e.

[@MrRourk]

You need Osric and the Kellri Cdd 1-4 to make it all more simple and elegant.

[@CraftDD]

I have the OSRIC book in spiral bound. You are right, it is a nice clear summary of the system. Thanks for the comment.

[@tj1993rx7]

Similar to other comments, I don’t remember it being that clunky, maybe we house ruled it but glad we didn’t go “by the book” as this type of minutia would drive me crazy now.

[@CraftDD]

I would never play it like this- would drive me nuts. But I did find it interesting the level of minutiae.

[@retrodmray]

BIG MISTAKE....ha-ha....you said maybe another video on note-taking and mapping. Yes! Do it! 👍 Second, maybe do one comparing 1E vs 2E movement, encumbered movement 🤔, and combat? Just some thoughts! Thnx and take care 🙂

[@Alethra-zin666]

I think that I can walk 40 ft in about 6 seconds.