Adam Ondra tries Rainman (9b): Britain's hardest climb

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BMC TV

BMC TV

6 жыл бұрын

One of the highlights of 2017 was Steve McClure climbing Britain's first 9b: Rainman at Malham. In November 2017, Adam Ondra paid a flying visit to the UK to speak at Kendal Film Festival. The very next day, he dragged Steve down to Malham to have a go on this epic new route.
What would he think of it? Was it definitely 9b? Would he climb it?
Keith Sharples grabbed his camera to make this short clip for us. Thanks to Black Diamond for their help.
#CLIMBING #9b
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Пікірлер: 281
@LiamGallagh
@LiamGallagh 6 жыл бұрын
"The grade doesn't matter, but I'm so thankful that you fell"
@SoupCannot
@SoupCannot 2 жыл бұрын
Spoiler!
@robomend
@robomend Жыл бұрын
Envy
@jordanf8797
@jordanf8797 Жыл бұрын
Normal to have that many ppl at a climb?
@BANKO007
@BANKO007 2 жыл бұрын
Quite a nice easy climb, especially the relaxing bit under the overhang.
@ferdi6594
@ferdi6594 2 жыл бұрын
9b's are easy for you??
@brodykrysa9986
@brodykrysa9986 2 жыл бұрын
@@ferdi6594 *Whooooosh*
@Raverzdreams
@Raverzdreams 2 жыл бұрын
Yeah they need to build some new mountains
@ferdi6594
@ferdi6594 2 жыл бұрын
@@brodykrysa9986 haha lol don’t know why I took it seriously at the time
@plutoloco2378
@plutoloco2378 Жыл бұрын
Rainman is pussy stuff.
@andreschneider2713
@andreschneider2713 5 жыл бұрын
Seeing just how fluid and exact Adam's climbing is, it's truly incredible
@wailer27
@wailer27 3 жыл бұрын
people say that about me, not that i'm bragging or anything, but you should realise it's not that hard to master... just because you haven't mastered it
@jackfinlay6175
@jackfinlay6175 2 жыл бұрын
@@wailer27 😂😂
@wailer27
@wailer27 2 жыл бұрын
@@jackfinlay6175 I bet you haven't even done an 8b so you can't chip in to this discussion at all
@luislaija
@luislaija 2 жыл бұрын
​@@wailer27I have never climbed anything, I don't even know the sport, but your arrogant attitude is very funny and sad.
@wailer27
@wailer27 2 жыл бұрын
@@luislaija then your words cannot possibly hold any weight until you've been to at least 2000m, then you can choose between funny and sad as I will give you a voice but I won't allow that level of ambivalence on my thread (not until you've been to 8000m)
@icedbannanas
@icedbannanas 2 жыл бұрын
I always love Ondra's passion and energy for climbing. Incredibly respectful as well.
@biomorphic
@biomorphic Жыл бұрын
Whatever will be the grade one day Ondra, Seb, Megos or Ghisolfi will give to this route, we must all appreciate what has been done by Steve in 2017, when he was 47, if I am not mistaken. It is insane. Only Dani Andrada climbed another 9b, Chilam Balam, when he was 40. So, even if the route will be degraded to 9a+, well, it is still an incredible achievement.
@dennis1802
@dennis1802 5 ай бұрын
Yeah and then imagine who Dani was, he was so far ahead in those days, now its a bit forgotten but he was the man back in the day, mister 8A
@cppoppin12
@cppoppin12 3 жыл бұрын
So lame people are arguing over ondra and honnold. They literally don't do the same thing. They're both freaks of nature and the fact that we get to live alongside their achievements is an honor.
@harshmanohar6163
@harshmanohar6163 3 жыл бұрын
I feel like Honnold is a daredevil like a rally driver mixed with Evil Knieval. But Ondra he is an F1 driver, just focusing on how fast he can go or in his case what routes he can do. I completely agree that they are not comparable.
@niquil7800
@niquil7800 3 жыл бұрын
@@harshmanohar6163 Honnold probably doesn't climb 9+ without ropes. He likes living too much.
@harshmanohar6163
@harshmanohar6163 3 жыл бұрын
@@niquil7800 Really smart on his part.
@chelfyn
@chelfyn 3 жыл бұрын
It's like comparing a sprinter to a marathon runner. They're both amazing, but different.
@wannahockachewie897
@wannahockachewie897 3 жыл бұрын
@@chelfyn Yup, like comparing Usain Bolt to Eliud Kipchoge.
@alessandropintus
@alessandropintus 6 жыл бұрын
These two are bringing so much positivity to the climbing community!
@NiekkieNick
@NiekkieNick 2 жыл бұрын
Watching Adam climbing gives me somehow energy! He seems like a real nice guy!
@robomend
@robomend Жыл бұрын
He is
@frankbush8368
@frankbush8368 5 жыл бұрын
Funny that Adam felt the need to say to Steve "you can be relaxed". Steve was pretty much like "yeahhh.... so about the route.."
@72resonate
@72resonate 4 жыл бұрын
@like_totally_pending_approval Ondra was saying Steve can relax about how he'd graded it. Basically saying it was hard.
@coldworld5
@coldworld5 4 жыл бұрын
Steve got very defensive when Adam said that.
@robotickidx
@robotickidx 3 жыл бұрын
ReZo yeah it was obvious he was worried about the grading and I think Adam was agreeing with him about 9b
@freddie_connor9202
@freddie_connor9202 Жыл бұрын
@@72resonate i thought it was a ‘you can relax’ because he didn’t on sight it which would undermine his years of effort
@thor1511
@thor1511 5 жыл бұрын
That knee bar was revolutionary
@justinyoung387
@justinyoung387 6 жыл бұрын
Adam is such a nice guy
@q1wer1
@q1wer1 5 жыл бұрын
Justin Young y
@christinegerard4974
@christinegerard4974 5 жыл бұрын
Superb !
@arthurv8905
@arthurv8905 6 жыл бұрын
I loved that little look after he said he still has Mutation to do, like "please god try it, no one else is". There is a reason for that Steve.
@BlocBusters
@BlocBusters 6 жыл бұрын
nice uncut climbing!
@waylandsmith8666
@waylandsmith8666 5 жыл бұрын
If you climb a route in your late forties that even the world's best climber can't repeat, I think you can feel pretty good about yourself.
@ondrejvlk2099
@ondrejvlk2099 5 жыл бұрын
He probably can but it will take him a little more time to do the research and give it couple mote tries. If you have seen the video where he does the 9c, you must know it took him quite some time...
@michaeltrumph121
@michaeltrumph121 5 жыл бұрын
Ondra is not the world's best climber, Honnold is.
@ondrejvlk2099
@ondrejvlk2099 5 жыл бұрын
@@michaeltrumph121 how do you actually determin who is the best?
@michaeltrumph121
@michaeltrumph121 5 жыл бұрын
@@ondrejvlk2099 that is very hard. In terms of actual ability to climb, Ondra and Sharma might actually be better. However I consider Honnold superior cause he free solo's the routes.
@michaeltrumph121
@michaeltrumph121 5 жыл бұрын
@@uga290 Did u read my comment or not ?!?? I sai I have no problem admitting that Sharma and Ondra might be more technical, but nowhere near as impressive. Free solo is the most impressive thing out there.
@ItsOnlyRyan
@ItsOnlyRyan 7 ай бұрын
Adam Ondra is one of my biggest modern day heroes for climbing… absolutely savage climber
@nkyryry
@nkyryry 2 жыл бұрын
I think Steve WAS a little concerned about Adam climbing the route and not seeing it as 9B. He shouldn’t have acted like he wasn’t when Adam said he could relax. Always be honest with yourself.
@spoopy2587
@spoopy2587 5 жыл бұрын
I read the the title as adam ondra tries raman.
@AutomticHeart
@AutomticHeart 3 жыл бұрын
Ramen?
@jonasjohajohanson9517
@jonasjohajohanson9517 5 жыл бұрын
2:53 - it is always astonishing to see what a simple foot slide can do when you are climbing a difficult route. First, everything looks good and you think he will sent the route first try and then his foot slipped and all goes down the drain...
@bluecollar825
@bluecollar825 Жыл бұрын
Im sorry but how is that astonishing? If you slip during a climb you should 100% expect to fall off immediately, thats kinda how it works. No malice in my reply friend just a different perspective. Hope you have a great 2023!✌
@maleficenthardware
@maleficenthardware 6 жыл бұрын
great insight
@TheScreamingSeal
@TheScreamingSeal 6 жыл бұрын
It'd be cool to be related to Steve
@guillaumevidal8656
@guillaumevidal8656 6 жыл бұрын
I'd love to see him on the 9a slab Meltdown! So many underated climb there in UK
@doublevgreen
@doublevgreen 6 жыл бұрын
Guillaume Vidal lol slate climbing is cancer just like speed climbing
@DesmondRayBeltrop
@DesmondRayBeltrop 5 жыл бұрын
He'd find a F'ing kneebar somewhere on it...
@uremawifenowdave
@uremawifenowdave 5 жыл бұрын
Jamie E your comment made me laugh so much. He really does seem to magic holds out of thin air.
@joemilner7710
@joemilner7710 5 жыл бұрын
Ondras a beast bruh, there should be a separate grading system for him lol.. I’m projecting a 5.ondra minus... minus minus minus minus
@benmercer4942
@benmercer4942 3 жыл бұрын
5.ahhhhhhhfuuckahhhterrible
@onsight2822
@onsight2822 6 жыл бұрын
I love it ☺
@bowserhoudini5588
@bowserhoudini5588 2 жыл бұрын
I dont really care for climbing all that much, but Adam is such a joy to watch. This sport is in good hands
@keithmorgan3929
@keithmorgan3929 2 жыл бұрын
Adam Ondra at Malham: nice quiet day at the crag then!
@VivienJ
@VivienJ 6 жыл бұрын
0:49 Nice belaying !
@katzen3314
@katzen3314 5 жыл бұрын
Obviously not too fussed about being "that guy who dropped Adam Ondra".
@partykrew666
@partykrew666 4 жыл бұрын
thats Neil Gresham too!
@edcunningham5562
@edcunningham5562 4 жыл бұрын
honestly not that bad, hes using a grigri and concerned about the rope getting in adams way. its extremely low probability that the gri gri wont lock
@EKdlwoasred
@EKdlwoasred 3 жыл бұрын
You’ve clearly never used a gri gri...
@masterrook9329
@masterrook9329 2 жыл бұрын
@@EKdlwoasred when you use the grigri in the correct way, you minimize the risk of It failing and dropping your partner But you have to know how to use It properly first
@balke7935
@balke7935 6 жыл бұрын
'it doesnt really matter, the number is not important' HAH! always makes me laugh when obsessed sport climbers say that.
@dahui58
@dahui58 6 жыл бұрын
But he did get the number right, so it's not as if he is saying it isn't important after overestimating it
@balke7935
@balke7935 5 жыл бұрын
we don't know that yet as it hasn't been repeated.
@simonbailey8796
@simonbailey8796 4 жыл бұрын
@@Adam-qs6ef He really isnt, super down to earth guy
@wombra8314
@wombra8314 4 жыл бұрын
ik he kept contradicting himself....he was obviously obsessed with it 😂😂😂👍 the first post interview was hilarious... not dissin him,,..,there is an equivalent in every passionate discipline.,,,,but he was tryin waaaaay toooo hard 🤦🏻‍♀️😂😂😂
@callumscott2650
@callumscott2650 4 жыл бұрын
@@balke7935 That would probably tell you it's correct then. If a route hasn't been repeated by even the worlds best climber, it's probably correctly graded or at least very close to the grade it has been given. 9B is fair.
@noahbigelow5691
@noahbigelow5691 5 жыл бұрын
does anyone know the brand of the baselayer Adam Ondra is wearing?
@zediminer8921
@zediminer8921 2 жыл бұрын
Montura
@assemblyrtsdev
@assemblyrtsdev Жыл бұрын
3:42 I think Adam was about to give it a rating and they cut it out 😅
@bobrickleson2087
@bobrickleson2087 6 жыл бұрын
pretty coo
@df4291
@df4291 5 жыл бұрын
wouldve been hilarious if he crushed it on the first try
@partykrew666
@partykrew666 5 жыл бұрын
woulda been kinda sad, imo. sad for steve and all the older generation. I mean i know theyre stoked the new kids are pushing the limits, but it might make someone feel dated or irrelevant. and thats not a good feeling.
@samhaokip9126
@samhaokip9126 5 жыл бұрын
@@partykrew666 respek
@plasmaastronaut
@plasmaastronaut 4 жыл бұрын
there was a real danger that would happen. But it didn't. Great to know Steve is absolutely in touch wrt grading hard sports routes.
@TiffMcGiff
@TiffMcGiff 4 жыл бұрын
DF, not really, just par for the course for Ondra. Good to see him fail. Everyone needs failure at some point to grow.
@ciepularys
@ciepularys 3 жыл бұрын
@@plasmaastronaut no there wasnt a slightest chance of this happening
@motorboatmygoat8748
@motorboatmygoat8748 6 жыл бұрын
Why was the fall cut? I feel like you can learn from safe falling outdoor by a pro.
@HardIsEasy
@HardIsEasy 6 жыл бұрын
It looks like that camera just missed the fall :)
@jrblackify
@jrblackify 6 жыл бұрын
What exactly would you have learned from someone falling into space that you can't learn from the 10 billion other videos showing someone fall into space?
@motorboatmygoat8748
@motorboatmygoat8748 6 жыл бұрын
JJ Sevins Hes a pro, when to ditch/how to position your body.
@fvux5393
@fvux5393 5 жыл бұрын
I might be late to reply to this, but when climing, there isn't much to falling. You just fall. In this case, it's even easier since there is an overhang, so you don't even have to catch yourself against a wall. It would only be learnful when they film the belayer while someone is falling, which isn't the point of this video. The hardest part of falling is belaying a fall to make it safe and comfortable.
@fvux5393
@fvux5393 2 жыл бұрын
@@brianwilson7624 I'm talking from experience...
@alexk1486
@alexk1486 5 жыл бұрын
4:33 look Ma, no hands
@freebee8221
@freebee8221 3 жыл бұрын
4:33 he is holding on just with his knee.
@hbdc6957
@hbdc6957 3 жыл бұрын
yeah its called a knee bar, they're adams speciality
@freebee8221
@freebee8221 3 жыл бұрын
@@hbdc6957 thats incredible. must hurt like hell
@hbdc6957
@hbdc6957 3 жыл бұрын
@@freebee8221 you can get knee bar pads that make it slightly less painful but yes they are known to cause bloody knees
@freebee8221
@freebee8221 3 жыл бұрын
@@hbdc6957 im guess adam and all the top climbers have endured a huge amount of pain in their careers.
@wailer27
@wailer27 3 жыл бұрын
Anyone who doesn't know what a knee bar is has no business being on this channel... Recommending a block on this user.
@matthewmollica1547
@matthewmollica1547 5 жыл бұрын
3:50 this mans hands are literally the size of his head
@noahborthen3533
@noahborthen3533 5 жыл бұрын
For a brief moment, I though he was wearing gloves there.
@artisdying
@artisdying 4 жыл бұрын
What are you talking about? They are not that big. Normal size hands.
@hbdc6957
@hbdc6957 3 жыл бұрын
@@artisdying they're just CHUNKY
@tehalexy
@tehalexy 3 жыл бұрын
You could fit 5 Donald Trump Hands in Ondras :D
@ericastier1646
@ericastier1646 Жыл бұрын
you're confused, big hands are a disadvantage due to reduced leverage.
@rschreck876
@rschreck876 3 жыл бұрын
I was like really, 9a? He’s hiking it. And then the video hit the 2:15 mark. Lol.
@4dub802
@4dub802 4 жыл бұрын
That man is fucking crazy!!!
@dietmartreptow8940
@dietmartreptow8940 2 жыл бұрын
My last concern was TWO years ago ! Steve - whats wrong with you? Has this has something to do that my mate is Stevie Haston - or what ? We have f... nice routes her on Gozo . Even for Dev . Wait for your answer ! DD
@apostatepaul
@apostatepaul 4 жыл бұрын
Has Ondra climbed The Indian Face? I’d like to see that
@benjaminlecter
@benjaminlecter 3 жыл бұрын
I'm always asking myself how often you have to repeat the route to climb it that fast. Cause I couldn't believe that he's climbing *always* that fast! Or does he????
@benjaminholbrook8848
@benjaminholbrook8848 2 жыл бұрын
He'd researched the route but that was his first time actually on the rock. So yes he's just fast.
@nkyryry
@nkyryry 2 жыл бұрын
@@benjaminholbrook8848 on these high level difficult climbs you can’t be slow. Even guys like Adam blow out their forearms.
@mosley3485
@mosley3485 2 жыл бұрын
That's just Ondra's style. He climbs fast and takes risk. He says he would prefer to push himself and fall than climb safely and succeed. That's why he doesn't free solo.
@FliegenderKeks
@FliegenderKeks 6 жыл бұрын
Wow😂i can't see there any holds😂
@Pikachulova7
@Pikachulova7 3 жыл бұрын
That was ridiculous
@ericastier1646
@ericastier1646 Жыл бұрын
To me it looks he could beat it, it's just that this 9b krag face forces anyone to make quick decisions due to the amount of energy it drains from you. It's like speed chess, you have limited time to decide where you put your feet and fingers which makes good decisions harder. He could train on speeding up his mind (his body is fast enough) or get pliers like rock pinching fingers endurance. Oh and Adam Ondra is my favourite of all climbers.
@jammydodger9288
@jammydodger9288 3 жыл бұрын
Northumberland grading: I'm about to end this man's whole career
@frenchy7103
@frenchy7103 4 жыл бұрын
if you have ever watched an adam ondra video and not heard him shout to the top of his lungs, then you are lying
@frenchy7103
@frenchy7103 4 жыл бұрын
@like_totally_pending_approval wym
@constantinosschinas4503
@constantinosschinas4503 3 жыл бұрын
bit of sound mix problems. voiceover is more like voiceunder, too high nature sound.
@ab8jeh
@ab8jeh 10 ай бұрын
Unconfirmed 02 grade
@nizamchannel384
@nizamchannel384 Жыл бұрын
Salam pemula teman baru hadir menyaksikan
@brookesd4979
@brookesd4979 5 жыл бұрын
the strangest neck I've ever seen
@johnmortimerjbmfitness7753
@johnmortimerjbmfitness7753 5 жыл бұрын
Llama boy;)
@wra7h
@wra7h 2 жыл бұрын
I think he was trying this at the weekend when I went down
@Kefford666
@Kefford666 6 жыл бұрын
Pretty sloppy belaying at the start O_O
@miguelpt1
@miguelpt1 6 жыл бұрын
Why do you say that? seems perfect to my eyes
@headchip26
@headchip26 6 жыл бұрын
looks like he's using a grigri
@rknewell9547
@rknewell9547 6 жыл бұрын
Matthew Kefford I'm confident that the relationship between father (his belayer) & Son (Adam) is more dialed In then you realize
@zahnstocherjoe3843
@zahnstocherjoe3843 6 жыл бұрын
and i am confident to say that it is not his father belaying him. the belay is completely fine anyway. the guy is only preparing to take out the first quickdraw as soon as adam has clipped the third one.
@dropsnooze5274
@dropsnooze5274 6 жыл бұрын
That is perfect? He completely let go of the rope, wich is a big big no go., even when he is using a grigri. Of course normaly he wouldn't be secured anyway because he has not reached the first clip, but common, how can you say that this is perfect?
@markdavidsonjewell
@markdavidsonjewell 6 жыл бұрын
I didn't know the British bolted routes. I feel disappointed. I was excited to see Ondra place some gear for a change...
@vktesla
@vktesla 6 жыл бұрын
if you were excited to see a guy shove stuff into cracks try porn, much more interesting.
@ashleyphotog
@ashleyphotog 5 жыл бұрын
we only bolt stuff that isn't really protect-able with trad, if people try to bolt in places that it hasn't been agreed to, then the bolts will get removed.
@badhorse84
@badhorse84 2 жыл бұрын
traditional climbing is much more popular and fiercely protected in CZE than UK that I find this very insulting Mark.
@doug2279
@doug2279 5 жыл бұрын
you see these guys are far better than honnold but honnald has far bigger balls
@434x18
@434x18 3 жыл бұрын
climbing skill is more impressive than skill at being an idiot anyway
@MrShadowfax42
@MrShadowfax42 3 жыл бұрын
@@434x18 Yeah, that's why you're not a climber I guess.
@stephenr80
@stephenr80 5 жыл бұрын
Looks hard but not beautiful no?
@ziptiedk7301
@ziptiedk7301 Жыл бұрын
commentary, needs to get sacked
@dennishanton3181
@dennishanton3181 2 жыл бұрын
A job would be more impressive.
@ctoaun23
@ctoaun23 2 жыл бұрын
Lol. Anyone can get a job. Except my housemates.
@impyrobot
@impyrobot 2 жыл бұрын
Climbing is his job? Anyone can get a job anyway what's impressive about that?
@MrMajsterixx
@MrMajsterixx Жыл бұрын
jealous
@dennishanton3181
@dennishanton3181 Жыл бұрын
@@MrMajsterixx 🤣
@ab8jeh
@ab8jeh 10 ай бұрын
Do you say that to ALL sportsmen and women? Climbing is no different.
@Insolation1
@Insolation1 Жыл бұрын
He'll never come close too Alex Honnold
@ab8jeh
@ab8jeh 10 ай бұрын
🤦‍♂
@Perrythedrummer
@Perrythedrummer 5 жыл бұрын
Why is there so much coverage of this guy. So many more climbers that don’t seek fame that are as good. Yet this guy gets all the coverage
@PO53286G
@PO53286G 5 жыл бұрын
Who is as good?
@uremawifenowdave
@uremawifenowdave 5 жыл бұрын
Perry the corpse Flower as you mentioned many climbers don’t seek fame or promote themselves that much. Adam has carved out an impressive climbing career that allows him to travel the world continuously. To do this he gets as much exposure as he can, though I do feel much of it is organic. In every video I’ve seen of him he comes across as very personable and passionate, which is perfect for interviews and films. If people don’t want to create opportunities for themselves then that’s up to them.
@Masterdebater14
@Masterdebater14 4 жыл бұрын
Perry the corpse Flower Maybe cuz like you said, the others dont seek the attention? 🤪
@ericastier1646
@ericastier1646 Жыл бұрын
It's all about personality, Adam is a gentle positive guy bringing a lot to the sport, not an egocentric hard ass maniac trying to make you feel like a unimportant speck. I won't name names but that's quite common in the sport. He is also extremely talented.
@Scalabrio
@Scalabrio Жыл бұрын
believe me. If someone was as good as Adam he'd get the same coverage.
@dada-nd4eg
@dada-nd4eg Жыл бұрын
People who are climbing with rope is same as taking an elevator. if he is such a good climber, try climbing without a rope
@Insolation1
@Insolation1 Жыл бұрын
Like Alex Honnold
@ab8jeh
@ab8jeh 10 ай бұрын
This is so dumb it's hard to know where to start.
@2ndAveScents
@2ndAveScents 4 жыл бұрын
Adam was joking with the guy about the rating and the dude was so smug about it I wish I could take my view back. Adam knows it’s embarrassing to have someone hit your route and then grade it easier. This dude lives there and has probably spent many hours climbing it and testing problems, then when Adam falls at the crux, the guy acts like an uptight prick about it.
@BennyH11
@BennyH11 4 жыл бұрын
Your interpretation
@racerschin
@racerschin 2 жыл бұрын
Steve did this while being 47. 47 is certainly not the end of the world, but it severly adds to an accomplisment and marks the end of self progression in max power. Anyone in his position would be a bit anxious. It is a competititive (inner or outer) sport, after all.
@ericastier1646
@ericastier1646 Жыл бұрын
english people do that, they're very protective on their turf and will shoot you in the back if they feel they are lesser.
@boulderingollie4479
@boulderingollie4479 3 жыл бұрын
What an ego Adam has telling a legend to be relaxed. What ever happened to complimenting somebody’s route
@christophernicolson5086
@christophernicolson5086 3 жыл бұрын
He was, he could see that Steve didn't really know how hard the route was and it was him saying ""Steve, it's really hard, i'm not going to downgrade it" Adam has repeated some of Steve's climbs and obviously respects him to redpoint something hard and interesting so that he wanted to be the first to repeat. That''s why he was there.
@dietmartreptow8940
@dietmartreptow8940 5 жыл бұрын
Its me again . DD What the hell is it ???? English climbers prefer TRAD climbing - or not ? Every route is prepared with quick draws ?????????? I am not impressed !
@ondrejvlk2099
@ondrejvlk2099 5 жыл бұрын
You mean it is standard to do 9+ routes with all the iron hanging on your butt in England? :D
@thatfriggingbathroom2656
@thatfriggingbathroom2656 5 жыл бұрын
What do you mean "every route". We only see one route in this video and yes it's bolted. Plenty of trad climbing out there, but not exclusively
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