Adding LEAD to your LITHIUM battery bank [Capable Cruising Guides]

[@Nerd3927]

Just Excellent. I have an electrical background and have studied this topic quite a bit, this last year. If only these videos were out last year, I would have saved many hours studying! Not only that, but your solution to the BMS issue can help many sailors get a much better and safer experience with Lithium. Many thanks for sharing your knowledge!

[@popsoldboats3406]

Total eye opener. And I already knew about burning out alternators from just running dead lead due to nothing to absorb the load. Loved it.

[@Aliskandr]

I really appreciate your channel. I’m a photographer going “digital nomad” living in a sailboat outside of Stockholm. I’m following the Dream but haven’t a clue about living in a boat, thank you so much for these absolutely down to Earth tips🙏

[@michaelphilip9378]

Just starting to look thru the provided Wildebeest link. WOW, This is a GREAT topic. Thanks, Michael

[@rontherational8008]

I had the same concern with the alternator going to no load and burning the diodes. My fix was to install a 6 cell super capacitor in parallel with the lithium battery bank. This absorbs the srtay voltage from the alternator when the BMS shuts down and acts as a battery. It also filters most of the electrical noise, absorbs surges, and removes instant loads from the inverter. I am also testing super caps with the lead starter battery to extend its life by helping with surges.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Interesting Ron, But, I'm concerned about the use of caps there. Think about what would happen when this lithium disconnects and then reconnects. I'm concerned that with even a small voltage difference reconnection could cause a very powerful inrush current. Lithium has a very low internal resistance and super caps about none.

[@rontherational8008]

@@Clarks-Adventure My BMS has separate FETs for charge and discharge cutout. When charge is too high on the BMS it cuts the charge FETs but keeps discharging. As the super caps dissipate, the voltage equalizes with the discharge FETs. Same goes with low voltage cutout. Discharge is stopped but able to charge. As alternator kicks in and raises super cap voltage, BMS charges with same voltage. When threshold is met, discharge is open but does not matter because voltage is the same and charging. The only sync issues I see are initial connection of batteries ( as you discuss) and BMS low/high temp discharge cutout. This is where both FETs are cut until temp is in range. Around 0C the BMS blocks charging, and -10 it stops discharging. When it returns above -5C or so is where you could have issues. Being that I am in the Pacific Northwest and my batteries are in my boat, I do not foresee this being my biggest problem if temps drop that low. My super caps are also only 20 farads. BTW, I love your channel! Keep on tossing out great ideas.

[@rontherational8008]

With large super caps, you could put a power resister in series with the caps (only a couple of ohms) to soften the surge. Since most BMS can hand 300A for a few seconds it would not take much.

[@kevinh265]

Excellent video. Thanks We are upgrading to 300 ah lithium for the house but keeping 2 lead for bow thruster and windlass and 1 for starter. Will also upgrade to a high amp, over rated but limited by external regulator, alternator. Will have all batteries linked with a 200 amp 3 bank isolator. Based on what I’ve just learned from your video I think I’m on the right track. Also adding serpentine belt system. Cheers

[@Clarks-Adventure]

I'm a little concerned about the isolator. It's not necessarily a great idea to combine li with batteries of different voltage/charge state. But I imagine you will be ok especially if you use small wire to link front lead batteries with back lithium. The resistance will help you. As a proof of it working I have an agm in the bow for windlass. I've owned the boat 30 years and since I set it up it's been charged with 6 or 8 gauge wire. Works great.

[@Joshua-dw8wu]

Your battery ideas are fun to listen to. Thank you

[@Clarks-Adventure]

You're welcome Joshua. Tell your friends.

[@rabukan5842]

What can I say Clark... yes, you made this video just for me :) Now to search for your video on charging systems. Domo arigato gozaimasu from Japan!

[@stevesheliflying]

Another great video Clark. I am doing what this video is about for the reasons you talk about. Not sure you mentioned what your charging gizmo is, but for me I am going to use a diode and fuse from my LiFe batteries to charge my lead battery. 1,530 Watts of solar will be charging my LiFe batts, and running our normal daily needs. Anyway, I look forward to your next video. I hope you get really technical and Geek out with the details. I love that. Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with us.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

I'm sure you have a plan but I can see why you would want to use a diode. Seems like a needless voltage drop that will really hurt the leads ability to charge.

[@stevesheliflying]

@@Clarks-Adventure The lead battery will be charged whenever I run the engine. The diode is to isolate my LiFePO4 bank from the alternator. The voltage drop is only 300mV, so no big deal really. The lead battery will think it is being float charged. Hopefully that explains my plan better. If not, well maybe someday we'll meet and we can talk over a beer or two. :)

[@svphoenixandme776]

Howdy sir. Glad to see more content about lithium in the Marine world. You are doing the community a service. Those are very good points as well. The point about redundancy speaks for itself. Your second point... Having lead acid batteries in your system to act as a capacitive load in the case of unintentional disconnection of the lithium bank is hugely important. There are other ways to accomplish this of course. However, none are so simple and foolproof. I do disagree on the cost of lithium. Initial cost is high.. But ultimately, they are significantly less expensive than lead acid. This is especially true for a full-time Cruiser using them each and every day. Further, a person prone to study nor opposed to used cells Dramatically reduces cost. Another point that you may perhaps focus on in a future video is that charging a lithium Bank with your diesel engine rather than a generator (or more sophisticated charging equipment like a flywheel mounted PMAC motor/generator) is FAR more advantageous and cost-effective. Also, when a large lithium bank is decided upon, 48V starts to make a Lot of sense. World's of possibly open at 48V. Thanks for the video.

[@rocktech7144]

Having just switched my lead to lithium I have run into some of these issues. I have a diy lithium bank with no bms currently connected. After a cloudy week my voltage started teetering around low shutdown. One morning my bank read 16 volts on a 24 volt system. Ouch. By hooking in my available lead I saved my $2000 battery bank from destruction. Those 'smart' chargers will not charge a battery at that low voltage the lead brought the bank voltage up to a point that the charger could recognize. Always have a backup.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Thanks RockTech. One I hadn't thought of.

[@marscan1]

very cool, I will look forward to it

[@40watt_club]

Very educational and entertaining.. TY .. if someone would have told me some weeks b4 that (as a non sailor/ solarusing person) I would enjoy that stuff :-) Sail safe the both of you.

[@bobuncle8704]

Clark, I’d never want to show up to a ball game and see you on the opposing team. You hit it out of the park every time. I’ve shared your other battery video with a bunch of people. I wish there were a way to make sure everyone setting up a battery system could see this. I am really hoping to become a Patreon subscriber soon, but being laid off things are a bit tight. You and Emily have such fantastic content. Daley, just recommenced your outboard fin install video this morning. He said “ I’m not going to go into detail. If you want to see how it’s done Clark did a video go watch that”. Me basically tapped out and tagged you in cause you did such a good job. Rock on guys.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Thanks Bob. We'd like to see you over on patreon but do worry about it. Just enjoy our stuff. We always look forward to hearing from you on a new video.

[@c34webmaster28]

You describe the charging issues well. I'm adding 280ah of lithium house alongside a lead starter battery so charging w/ std internal regulated 105ah alternator w/ V-belt likely can't handle much over 60amps w/o overheating or eating belts. I haven't decided on converting the alternator to external regulation /w temperature control (MC-614) or a 50AMP B2B w/ a built in MPPT charger controller @ 3/4 the cost. You bring up good points about B2B but also have some nice features. Side note: Sterling makes an alternator protect device that could be used with LFP only setups.

[@MICHELDILLIONS]

amazing explanation , thank you , Blessings

[@SVFresh2Salty]

This is really cool. Thank you for putting this together

[@Clarks-Adventure]

You're welcome. If you think your friends might also like our work would you consider sharing this video on social media? I'd appreciate the new viewers.

[@SVFresh2Salty]

@@Clarks-Adventure know the feeing :-)

[@TrabberShir]

As a backup power source, I think a backup generator is probably a cheaper and lighter solution. Although a lead bank set up in this way may require less maintenance and, combined with your existing solar system, be usable for the class of extremes where your lithium is dead and you will be unable to resupply in the near future. If worried about the environmental impact, that is a point for the generator as well. A cheaper and lighter solution if your main concern is blowing out your alternator, is to switch your charging circuit from the battery to a great big resistor in the event of a BMS shutout. Most BMSs have a signal line that is used for killing the alternator, but if the alternator/generator is not protected internally, that same signal line should be used for engaging a dissipative load. That load switch be on the provider line and also trigger in any over-voltage situation, high quality systems will have that part of it built into the alternator itself. More generally, if your BMS locks out your battery, that is an event you need to get a record of, ideally with details for which safety triggered it. In a well configured system, that should basically never happen and when it does happen you should take steps to prevent it in the future. A BMS is usually configured to only lock out the batteries if they are already taking damage and close to becoming a fire risk.

[@srira7910]

Absolutely great videos Emily and Clark! Thinking about combining FLA start with Lithium has us thinking about the amount of current that flows during a crank start, its effects on the Lithium, and Lithium's have lower impedance than the FLA's. Especially for example two battleborn 100Ah (200Ah Combined) system, tied to a FLA start battery. Maybe a 'start position' controlled relay to disconnect the lithiums during an engine start.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

I use two Battleborn. I haven't done a study of this but I crank my 4 cylinder yanmar. What seems to happen is between the wiring (engine wire goes to starter battery first) and switches and regular voltage drop that happens with a big current load the voltage at the started drops below 12.8 so the lead helps out. As I said I haven't done a study but I haven't noticed the li BMS kicking out. Take a look at wildevans document. Link in my recent charging video. We talked about this, he did some studies with his smaller loads and lead got involved as one would hope.

[@srira7910]

@@Clarks-Adventure 12.8, well, that's comforting. When you did your balancing between FLA and Battleborn's via a high wattage resistor, what resistance value did you choose? Also, what wattage? can't imagine a lot of current flowed when you initially did this given the voltage potential between the two types of batteries. Thanks again Clark.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

I just waited till the voltages we're the same. Just an ohm or two would be plenty. My BBMS device will do it for you every day.

[@srira7910]

@@Clarks-Adventure When is your initial release slated for the BBMS? Is there any specs available on it?

[@Clarks-Adventure]

I am having supply chain issues just now. But I managed to order 10 of what I hope are the final boards. Once these check out I'll order as many as I can get chips for but expect it to start with limited availability. I might do an auction. I talk about them in adventure logs and live streams. There will be a Bbms video soon when I have product in hand where I will go into details. But in short. The Bbms oversees charging li similar to how the Battleborn manual says to charge them. It provides some extra safeties including protecting the li from recharge without discharge and a few other optional tricks. If course it controls safe reconnection. The BBMS+ adds the ability to charge based on current flow. I have become convinced that this is important for the li cells. It's possible that our Battleborn BMSs do some magic in this direction but I haven't verified this yet.

[@kirkdykema7093]

This is an interesting concept, and relevant to us. We recently bought an RV and I replaced the lead batteries with a single 200AH lithium battery. I now have 2 new 100AH lead batteries and your video is making me consider using them as part of my power setup. I replaced the stock converter (charger) with an inverter/charger, to increase 120V availability in the RV, and the inverter has power bypass, and automatically switches between charging and inverting based on connection to shore power. You don't discuss the connection configuration of the batteries to each other or to the charging system. I assume the batteries are connected in parallel, and I'm wondering which "side" is connected for input/output - the lead batteries or the lithium? I have a single set of cables connecting the battery to my system, through which input and output flow, and if I added lead am wondering which of the battery types should be that connection (in your schema). Also, you only touch briefly on this, but I assume you set a charge profile that blends the absorption and float values of the two battery types, but may lean toward a lead profile. This means less than a complete charge for the lithium batteries, but the trade off is nominal and overall worth the gain.

[@michaelphilip9378]

Just watched again. Wondering if I could use 4 12V Motor-Cycle batteries in series as a kind of a charging buffer for a 500 AH 48V Storage/Distribution lithium bank

[@Clarks-Adventure]

In theory sure. I haven't tried a lead bank that small but I use that as an example all the time. I'd say it would work. But I'd think seriously about one of my BankManagerPlus units. A 48v boat in this bay is planning on doing this with 4 group-24 batteries and a BankManagerPlus. www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms

[@kevinluddington4439]

Hi there really interested in marrying up my lifepo4 to existing acid but can’t understand how to isolate the alternator charging of acid if connected inline with lithium does the lithium not draw from alternator as all connected together ? Many thanks for video I found it very informative and a great watch !!!

[@Clarks-Adventure]

I go over that someplace. Though it was this video. Protect your alternator from overheating either by using a regulator with a thermo probe or just buying an alternator that can produce max amps continuously. The big risk for alternators that charge lithium is the BMS going off and burning the diodes. This won't happen with lead in the system.

[@captaindrew3061]

Great information

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Thanks Drew

[@PVflying]

Thanks for your well reasoned video. I decided, having watched it, that adding lead to my lithium system would not be worthwhile, which maybe sounds like a criticism but it’s not. Just that the advantages you outlined don’t seem to be important in my situation and the power drain from lead’s self discharge seems like a cost I don’t need to carry if there’s little chance I’ll ever get that lead battery into discharge mode.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Sure we all have our own needs. And glad you enjoyed the video. But consider the alternator protection is something that could effect anyone. We are not talking much power. My 1500ah AGMs cost me .5 amp to hold up. Imagine how little a motorcycle battery would cost you.

[@kurtilingus]

One large power diode between the parallel lead/lithium setup that's forward biased towards the lithium bank(s) would essentially negate all of those concerns. I'm actually surprised that wasn't at least suggested as an optional "peace of mind" thing to add to the circuit/system, but then again I don't run them in my Pb/Li-ion setup either as it stands, heh... I do the "human BMS" thing that I wont bore w/specifics but only just to mention that I consider it a much easier arrangement for dual chemistries when lead is kept on primary duty and Li-ion is considered "accessory power" & disconnect-able (or isolated like previously mentioned) in order to administer its desired topping charge. Otherwise I'd likely see lead in a similarly burdensome light day-to-day as you already concluded you would have. Just food for thought is all.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

With the diode you no longer have a bi-directional system. Using a BBMS link my BankManagerPlus solves this in the best way possible. Not for li-ion though

[@PVflying]

@@kurtilingus I suppose with a suitably large FET switch between the two battery banks and some kind of programmable logic based on each battery’s voltage you could connect and disconnect them as needed. Maybe that’s the principle Clark’s system works on. But the FET switch probably has to be rated for high currents, so can be expensive?

[@kurtilingus]

@@PVflying I'm rather new to DIY electronics tinkering & switching components/transistors are my next frontier for my knowledge-base as I'm definitely aware they're capable of handling some impressive tasks/energies, but w/that said I'm painfully undereducated in general w/their specs and/or how to utilize them. What I have set up that's in-line w/the components I **am** familiar with is to have a very high rating starter solenoid/relay specced for "continuous duty" wired to a on-off-on SPDT toggle switch that connects and disconnects the li-ion to the main lead battery as needed & also uses the second "throw" position to power a dc-dc boost converter which charges the li-ion to a more nominal level than the lead battery & alternator can provide as-is. Eventually I'm going to complicate the arrangement to a more fail safe one to where I'll install a 3 or 4 throw swtich w/however many poles needed + an additional solenoid & li-ion bank as an "aw-crap" backup that's on it's own circuit in order to have a untouched & fully-powered bank always available for the inevitable occasions when I run the lead & primary accessory li-ion bank down past cranking levels. I'd probably have that reserve bank at least in a 5s configuration to ensure the ability to easily jolt the whole system back to life & not worrying about a crippling voltage drop if the larger batteries are waayyy discharged

[@40watt_club]

Hi Clark ... might your idea not also help the islands to create cheap VirtualPowerPlants for the inhabitants ? sail safe.

[@willgeorge5644]

There is another advantage to just hooking them in parallel. A lead acid cannot be charged in a few hours, you need 10 or more. But lithium can be charged in less than 1 hour sometimes. let's say your batteries are pretty flat, you used them for an all night party. Next day you run the engine to charge them (it's raining), lead lead battery comes up quickly in voltage but it's not fully charged in an hour. After 45 min the voltage is 13.4V, most of the current is going into the lithium now, but the voltage of the lithium does not increase until the lithium is fully charged. After 1 and 3/4 hrs the lithium is charged fully but lead is still not. You turn off the engine, lithium now charges the lead acid! the lithium will keep the voltage up and the lead acid charging until the next day. So you only ran the engine for 1.3/4 hrs but if you had no lithium you would need to run it all day! Lithium prefers to be not fully charged but lead must be, so this is ideal! Just make sure your alternator and wiring is up to the increased current the lithium can draw. I would also say add a resistor in the field like he said if you can.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Yes Will. You are right. I feel mixing makes my solar panels larger. This is how I'm doing it now. www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms

[@joenovak9366]

Truth be told I don't have a boat I have a class B RV. I use an Ecoflow 3600 watt Lithium to run a 40 quart freezer and also my insta pot. I charge the Ecoflow with a suitcase solar 160 watt and sometimes off the vehicle alternator when driving. My RV came with 215 watt solar and two AMG house batteries that charge from solar, 12 volt vehicle alternator and a vehicle 12V starter battery that charges only off the alternator. can I merry these two systems (house & Ecoflow) without killing the alternator, AMG batteries or the Ecoflow Delta Pro??? I try to only charge the Ecoflow with Alternator when the house batteries are full and not drawing a charge since I must manually plug into a Cigarette type charger. Any help? THANKS!

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Hi Joe, That seems like a handful. Since I made that video I have learned a lot and have developed just what you need. kzbin.info/www/bejne/jIu2o2mlast_fqc We use it in our truck camper (see other videos on our channel). We run AC off solar and everything works great. Basically this lets you connect it all together. It is the only choice to properly charge your LiFePO4 batteries. And it becomes a set it and forget it system.

[@pawnmove]

Do you use a battery monitor? How does it work with hybrid banks? I use a Balmar SG200 with my AGM bank and love having the monitor.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

I just use volts and amps. I have a monitor but use it like a meter. I don't personally care for monitors. They seem consistently wrong.

[@davidl1338]

It's horses for courses, but unlike Clark I love monitors as well (data obsessive that I am). But when you have a Hybrid Bank getting a monitor to be accurate is a challenge as the charge efficiencies of the two technologies are so different and the Peukert Effect is so different as well. What this means is the monitors accuracy will vary depending on the overall discharge level of the bank. - For the upper part where the Lithium is mostly doing the work, the monitor needs to be configured as if it were a Lithium Bank - For the lower part where the Lead is working, the monitor needs to think it is monitoring a Lead Bank - And in the small window in the middle where both are busy, the monitor needs to setup somewhere in the middle You can't get a monitor that adjusts itself like that :) In my own Hybrid Bank, I have 3 (Victron) Monitors - one on the Lead, one on the Lithium, and one for the overall Hybrid Bank. The two dedicated Monitors work well configured in the normal way. The Hybrid one needed a touch of tweaking to get the right settings but I find it pretty accurate now (but I would not be surprised to have to make further tweaks as my usage pattern might vary)

[@Lordlindef]

Can you have lead bank x 2. And get litium smaller batery conekted together and make it all stronger??

[@Lordlindef]

Have 200amp acid and 200 amp gelly. But the gelly bank i Wonder if i can add smal litium batery and make them work together and get stronger?? I Wonder cos i live in Europa and we have dark time in the vinter so we not get so much out of sollar. Will be Great to mannage to get some help to this. Keep up the good work learning all of us this Great experians you have. And hope you answer me so we can get in touch. Best regards from norway man lives and sailing motorhome true all of european wather ways in the next couple of years

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Sorry I didn't understand your question.

[@benkanobe7500]

Clark (or anyone that already knows in case I just missed it), how many watts of solar does Temptress have?

[@Clarks-Adventure]

We had 900 watts but 300 watts of them were badly shaded by our radar. I recently added 200 on the bow due to all the battery review videos eating up so much power.

[@petercocks7209]

Would there be a problem with lowering the lithium battery to a lower voltage than the lead bank batteries before connecting them Would it still be dangerous

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Id make sure both banks are of the same voltage. I have a device that does that and much more. www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms

[@petercocks7209]

But not for sale in Australia

[@Clarks-Adventure]

There are lots of them in Australia. It was an Australian who suggested reship.com. Next to the US Australia has bought more of these than anywhere else.

[@Knoklsnedkr]

Thanks again for a very imformative video. :) Money for a beer on your way. :)

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Thanks! Are you from Denmark?

[@Knoklsnedkr]

@@Clarks-Adventure Yup :)

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Thanks we saw your donation. We will think of you when we enjoy it.

[@Knoklsnedkr]

@@Clarks-Adventure You deserve it. Both of you - plural. :)

[@richardcaldwell6159]

Hi. I thought of this while watching your other video (good stuff), but for other reasons. My thinking was that a starter battery can protect the lithium battery from spikes. I wrote a comment but deleted it because now I'm pondering lithium's low internal resistance. What do you think? Would a starter battery provide enough of a surge buffer to matter to the lithium?

[@Clarks-Adventure]

No. Low resistance wins. There are tricks I can think of to make a big load (like an inverter) draw more from the lead. Simple to implement but hard to explain. Not something I'd suggest here. It's more of a phone call thing.

[@richardcaldwell6159]

@@Clarks-Adventure Yeah, supercapacitors have lower resistance than lithium so incorporating something from Maxim sounds more promising than fiddling with lead. My build will be rather unique. I might choose to retain intellectual property rights on some of it (I've already divulged some of my flexible PV solution on Tito's and Will's videos where they dissed flexibles). Anyway, I'm looking forward to learning and exploring. See you around for sure.

[@billfipp1719]

I watched both videos and enjoyed them but I have a question; if you were starting fresh, how would you balance the amount of lithium to lead batteries? Would you go even, kind of the same amount of lithium to lead or more lead or more lithium and what percentage of difference? I apologize if this has already been asked but I didn't see it... ;-)

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Enough Li for one night. Enough lead to last as long as you want. That will change once Li comes down in price and gets better Then kinda flipped.

[@jimbo5635]

Lithium 100ah batteries are about the same as lead. So it only took 3 years. Still adding some lead because I have it already.

[@yvesst-jean6395]

merci

[@allynonderdonk7577]

I have a lead acid starter battery and a DC-DC charger. I turn it on after starting the engine and waiting about ten minutes for the starter battery to get a little bit more charge on it. My last post went by-e by-e for some reason. The problem with lead-acid and solar for instance is efficiency. The lead doesn't convert the solar into stored capacity as well as lithium. Not leads fault, but every system should really have at least a little lead. It keeps the cost down, and is a great dummy load for the alternator if it does nothing else.

[@thekiteboatparty3568]

I just watched both your Li+Pb videos, its a interesting idea especially in the first vid for keeping both batteries at their ideal resting voltages to prolong life but I still think a ‘standard’ (standard since a few years now) non isolated DC-DC converter system would be better. You can incorporate a regular selector switch to transfer the house loads to the lead start batt if somehow your house bank dies. If both batteries are wired together, everything dies. Finally, you seem to think your start battery dying is fine because they are cheap. Aside from being wasteful that could leave you drifting onto a lee shore with no communication and no motor and its not like you can have a spare start battery on hand because they lose charge overtime without regular starting or a trickle charge from solar.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

You can always start off your house bank. I have since developed a device that manages the charging of both of these banks efficiently. I feel dc-dc chargers waste too much power and aren't bidirectional. It's called a battery bank management system (BBMS). It's running on Temptress and a couple of other boats. Beyond doing the obvious it charges the lithium more "correctly" then any commercially available charger that I've seen. Figured if you are going to do it might as well do it right.

[@thekiteboatparty3568]

@@Clarks-Adventure yes well the lack of bidirectionalness (haha is that a word) is certainly a thing and so are losses in the dc-dc. So have you got these BBMS’s for sale? I would be interested to keep my existing lead house batt connected to a lithium to keep them both happy. I still think a switch isolated starter circuit is a good idea though in case of total house bank depletion. By the way my current house batt definitely does not have the cranking amps to start the engine but maybe a lithium bank might at a pinch. To get around the lack of bidirectionalness i was thinking to keep my current votronic solar controller that has a second 1amp outlet for a start batt trickle charge. Not sure why Victron’s offerings don’t have that feature?

[@Clarks-Adventure]

First. Go to eBay and type in "voltage sensitive relay". These are cheap and will hold you start bank with your house bank while there is a high enough voltage to charge lead but split them under loads. Also handy to get power from your alternator to the house batteries without a bunch of rewiring. If I could ship out of the DR they would be available now. But I need to find someone to do the finishing, packing, and shipping. Soon I hope.

[@thekiteboatparty3568]

@@Clarks-Adventure why not talk to victron or redarc and get them to license it from you or even you could contract to design it remotely?

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Though about it. I need to get the patent sorted first.

[@josepeixoto3384]

Ther is a THIRD kind of battery that marries WELL with lifepo4s; *AUTOMATICALLY* ; i use them in my off grid 1500 watt solar system.

[@andrewswingler]

The BMS is required for safety - there's no way around that. Undercharged LFP cells can become dangerous due to increased short circuit potential. Interesting concept of using lead as a robust back up 'crutch'. LFP shuts off like this quite often in my experience - i.e. high battery cutout - even at relatively low CV voltages. I think alternator voltage regulators should generally be more robust than you suggest. If not, a capacitor across the output can fix that. Again, mitigating chronic undercharge of the lead bank is compromised in this kind of a parallel combination. Interested to hear about your independent charge control idea.

[@benkanobe7500]

Someone should ask Will P. to describe why his flashlights still have lead-acid batteries. Then us old (engineers) folks can sit back and wait to see if he blushes...

[@dwfletch]

A person wanting to build a 1,00Ah, 12V bank without Lithium might use five 200Ah, 12V Lead batteries in parallel, but Victron's document "Wiring Unlimited" suggests that one should avoid having more than 3 or 4 parallel strings in a bank, perhaps by switching (in this case) to six 1,000Ah 2V OPzV batteries wired in series. What do you think of OPzV batteries?

[@Clarks-Adventure]

I personally use l-16 case size so 3 pairs (they are 6v) gives me over 1000ah. I like having some parallel batteries. Gives a fall back if part of your collection goes bad. But really, you should consider Lifepo4. www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms

[@teekay1785]

Same thing happens to a car alternator when PB battery gets full nothing new but you could always use a Buck Converter dc to dc to charge the lithium bank from the alternator too rather than direct from alternator and Pb battery is in the system same as it always was.

[@mikasjoman]

When you add your videos on how to build a low energy AC, let me know! That's when I'm gonna add that Patreon account!

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Subscribe and push the bell button!

[@westmc45]

Just curious is this channel called "Emily and Clark" ? kinda hoping to see Emily rebuild a winch or climbing the mast to install a radar or something cool

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Hi, Well you should subscribe and watch our other videos then. To start you off here is Emily rebuilding a winch. kzbin.info/www/bejne/nXKoapedZr5-mas She is the only one that goes up the mast anymore that's on video a few times and here is a series of her building her own boat alone. kzbin.info/aero/PLsT7_jPsZM5qrTdxolBxRZAsUfuacyiE1 Enjoy.

[@nonyayet1379]

if i'm correct, follow the boat did that, made their knowledge only available to patreons, while other youtubers grew by leaps and bounds their growth rate slowed down and dropped them well below the previous top ten list (as compiled by slow boat sailing). i was one of them that quit watching them for probably a couple years after they pulled that stunt. i always thought sailors took care of each other. i'm thinking the only folks interested in your knowledge is fellow sailors, or wanna be fellow sailors. i have asked myself why your previous responses to at least one of my questions seemed short, as if my asking annoyed you (depending on which project i was working on, it might have been under my other profile). now i get it. I'm not a patron, so you have no obligation to share knowledge with me. as a subscriber we are only entitled to positive comments, but not educational questions? or am i taking it wrong? most folks can't logically afford to support all the sailing channels with money that they watch. like wise, i do support the good youtubers that are struggling so long as they are ethically adept and trying. i do go out of my way to comment just for ya'lls added benefit. many of the questions i ask, i already have the answers too, but i do that for your benefit and your other viewers benefit. One of the youtubers i supported didn't recognize my user name and was quite rude to me (and others) asking educational questions. that costed them about 50 a month. that was a year or two ago. there is one fella with a video. he isn't to bright, but he tries hard. a particular video isn't even so great with extra knowledge, but by stirring up conversation, when we do a search for his topic, he's the top hit. that's just an example. a few of us made his mundane video turn i think 1.5 million hits by nothing more than controversial nebulous comments, stirring the senses and even emotions of some. no harm done, lots of smiles and for him, the boost his channel needed. I felt insulted. Regardless of your normally entertaining educational content. it may as well be click bait when you solicit content that needs extra pay to view. it's not unusual that i refuse to comment, refuse to finish the video and do a thumbs down for click bait. to do a video such as "patreons priviledged content preview" that'd be different i suppose. they do deserve more, absolutely no doubt. that's my two cents. I'll shut up and go back to trying to mind my manners (not always and easy task for me ) but now you have my thoughts (which i am sure is quite similar to many others, as follow the boat proved). good luck to the two of you.

[@jerrygilbert905]

I don't understand how to keep the lithium batteries' BMS from tripping with high amp loads, suddenly shifting the load to the lead acid batteries. Here is the scenario: all batteries are fully charged BMS max discharge capacity is 100 amps Lead acid max discharge capacity well exceeds the inverter max draw Inverter is used to power the microwave and draws 150 amps. As I understand the mixed lithium+lead system the lithium discharge voltage is higher than the lead. The draw from the higher voltage lithium would exceed the BMS max and so the BMS would trip open. The load would then suddenly shift to the lead batteries. This seems unstable and prone to failure. Where an I not understanding the operation of the example system? If this scenario outcome is right, what happens with the circuit? the equipment?

[@Clarks-Adventure]

I thought much the same. I have 200ah of li that should be good at 200 amps. My microwave is my chief load but heat guns for varnish come into it as well and it seems we have 10a going to laptops most of the day. I first figured an occasional BMS trip would be no big deal, lead is there after all. What I found was surprising. For me and for a friend in Scotland as the Li (even fully charged) gets close to limit it's voltage goes below 12.8. And of course lead starts helping at that point. I have 200ah li and 1500 ah AGM. Friend has 100 ah li and 100 ah carbon foam. One should have enough Li BMS capacity for max loads and I don't know if this would always work for everyone but it seems to just work out in my small testing set His findings are published on his webpage "wild bus". It's linked in the description of my charging video. As I first read your comment I thought you were referring to initial connection. I talk about that of course but I now have a device that handles these issues. See most current videos.

[@apivovarov2]

walmart sells rv marine deep cycle batteries for $80-$90 . capacity is 101-115 Ah depends on the size - 24, 27, 29

[@fredfrederick2246]

An amp meter between batteries shows positive and negative current flow would give an indication of relative health of both batteries..would show lead charging lithium and lithium supporting voltage of lead at different charge and discharge cycles..batteries are connected via an amp meter that provides information rather than a dumb piece of wire that tells you nothing except that it may be getting warm..high current devices connected to lead side of battery bank and low current devices with long discharge cycle on lithium side and amp meter tells you what is happening relative to each battery ..

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Shure would. I've snapped my clamp in meter on the wire when I was working this out. I've been working with a guy in Europe who has done a through instrumented study if this. I'll be sharing his results in my next video on this subject. In short it works just as expected.

[@fredfrederick2246]

Battery technologies still support each other but now a little more information about how they perform relative to each other ..

[@Clarks-Adventure]

As I mentioned in response to your other question, that info with detailed graphs will be in my next video.

[@sailingeden9866]

You should write a book.

[@PVflying]

Lithium is cheaper than lead today. Lots of folks are buying lithium iron phosphate prismatic cells at under $100 per kWh

[@nostric4237]

Clark, are you worried of the economic crisis coming and how it would affect your portfolio?

[@Clarks-Adventure]

No just the opposite. I expect the holdings to do well but the cash to fail through all the inflation that is coming. That said I took enough cash out for a while just in case.

[@PrivateUsername]

Lead is still recyclable. Lithium is, almost 100%, sent straight to the landfill because the cost of mining is so far below the cost of recycling the components. So I'm not sure lithium will ever be lower cost than Lead (for a particular power rating). You can also get a larger pulley for the alternator to slow it down a bit, or a smaller one to speed it up.

[@SailingInfidels]

Lithium is already recyclable and there are some companies doing it. The industry is young but growing. Lithium Iron Phosphate has a lifespan far greater than lead acid and by the time our current generation of batteries is finished, recycling capacity will be far greater. Lithium batteries are often repurposed to lighter duty applications when nearing the useful end of life in heavy duty applications. LFP is already cheaper than lead when you adjust for the huge differences in depth of discharge and charge time due to internal resistance, and the cost per cycles compared.

[@MiQBohlin]

Aye m8’s, maybe another vid about what battery combo would make sense on an all electric sail boat, with no Diesel engine. Especially the ones with two motors, and recharging in the same unit. Just like in the episode from Sailing Uma kzbin.info/www/bejne/oKGkn3qApcihh7c

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Same as here. Lithium. Big lithium of course since this powering your prime mover. But, still a bit of lead for failure protection. Especially if you have a diesel generator on board. The lead is just cheap insurance in this case. You could even have it be agm that you keep in storage and only top off it's charge every few months. Just something to run the autopilot and instruments after a big failure. And only for voyaging boats of course. I guess in the case you describe I'd carry spare BMSs before I'd carry a spare battery but knowing me (and you do) I'd likely carry both! Thanks for joining our Patreon crew. I'll write you there later today.

[@jimfile7158]

Clark you explanation "not" to use a DC to DC charger seems a tad disingenuous when alternator charging FLA & Lifepo4 at the same time.....incorporating a DC to DC charger would be safer. easier and cheaper than risking the blowing / replacing of an alternator or FLA batteries when charging with a dumb alternator.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

The alternator won't blow if it's connected to lead. One could safely connect the alternator to the lead and charge the li with a dc/dc charger. A dc/dc charger is a buck/boost converter and do waste some power. I have another idea. Just as safe but more efficient. Working in it. Video coming. Though might be a while since parts are hard to get out here.

[@TRAINSUP1]

I watch a lot of KZbin, on different subjects, You are really good at explaining the subject in a way that a average Joe like me can understand what it is about. 👉🚐👍 Later

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Thanks Dennis