Adrian Rogers Calvinism The False Doctrine of Election- Correctly Understanding The Potter and Clay

[@dr.joew.aguillard711]

Dr. Rogers is crystal clear in explaining God's love to us - not our robotic choices.

[@Andy-m8b]

Now Rogers has something here that's spot on.

[@oreally8605]

"I'd rather scare you into Heaven than to lull you into Hell" Adrian Rodgers-

[@bobwood5146]

Fortunately, Mr. Rodgers you accomplish neither. It is the Spirit that awakens the "dead in trespasses " sinner of Romans 3:10-18. That person is the Natural man of 1 Corinthians 2:14 who has no ability or inclination toward Christ. Of the people who hear about Christ 95% reject Him and they go to hell. Those who have never heard, probably in the billions, go to hell .. So the 2 or 3% who become believers must be so very humble or very intelligent to be able to somehow understand and figure out what their problem is. Do you understand what you are saying you believe. The God who spoke the universe into existence must have the permission of a spiritually dead person [ see verses above] before He can save them. because without their permission to "ask Jesus into their heart" they will go to hell. Makes you wonder what your biblical understanding of Omniscience and Omnipotence is. The God of the bible has "always known everything knowable" and He doesn't need the permission of a spiritually dead person in order to save him. On top of that Greek grammar explains the truth that non come to God unless they were drawn and that before the creation of the earth. Those of you who do not believe in and understand the Sovereignty of God please present your theology as what you believe and not be so dogmatic. It is embarrassing to listen to you.

[@vlads97]

@Bob Wood, very good observation. Couldn’t have said it better myself.

[@VictorFelipe82]

@@bobwood5146 Is God sovereign? Of course, He is. The Biblical understanding of God’s sovereignty recognizes that He is King of Kings, Lord of lords, the Highest Authority to which we may appeal, Giver of the law, Judge and Grantor of mercy. In this sense, truly God is indeed sovereign! *“For the Lord, the Most High, is to be feared, a great king over all the earth.” (Psalm 47:2) *“I am the Lord, your Holy One, the Creator of Israel, your King.” (Isaiah 43:15) *“To the King of the ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.” (1 Timothy 1:17) All believers agree that God is sovereign. The problem is that for my Reformed brethren, the term 'sovereignty' takes on a meaning that goes beyond its original definition. When the sovereign of a kingdom or state promulgates laws and decrees, these are either freely obeyed or freely transgressed by its inhabitants. If an inhabitant decides to do evil, for example, to commit murder, this volitional decision escapes the control of the sovereign. However, Calvinists argue that in the theological realm, the term 'sovereignty' transcends its original meaning. In their systematic, God cannot be sovereign if it is not He who decrees, commands, and causes absolutely everything that comes to pass. In their attempt to defend God’s sovereignty at unbiblical levels, Calvinists have created a 'god' very different from the God of the Bible. In fact, the Calvinist version of God is, in many ways, the real villain of human history, not the devil himself. Why? Because in the version of God that Calvinism presents to us, it is God Himself, and not the devil, who is the true author of evil. The devil is just a poor pawn in this macabre and cruel game, where the freedom and agency of the created beings is pure illusion. Brother Bob, please, save your strawmanning by saying things like, "The God who spoke the universe into existence must have the permission of a spiritually dead person [ see verses above] before He can save them. because without their permission to "ask Jesus into their heart" they will go to hell." It is embarrassing to read you.

[@sarahgracebrooks2629]

@@VictorFelipe82 Read John 15:16 and also all the verses where Jesus tells people NO one comes to him unless the Father who sent me draws him. Also, Jesus says in 1 verse ...I will lose NONE of whom the father has given me but will raise them up in the Last day. Sovereign actually means to have complete power to do as one wills. Election and predestination are not a bad thing, it's absolutely fair and just by God the Father

[@VictorFelipe82]

@@sarahgracebrooks2629 Morning, sister Sarah. Thanks for participating. 1.- I have read my Bible. I know what John 15:16 teaches. You're taking a verse that should not be used to create a universal doctrine. Here Jesus is addressing his disciples. So it's an actual historical account, in which Jesus is in fact choosing His own disciples. 2.- You bring up John 6:44, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, ...". Again this refers to a historical event. You can't use this to mean that some are chosen to believe while others are passed over for reprobation. Remember that Jesus's main ministry regarding evangelism while He was in the flesh was to bring the good news of salvation to the House of Israel. So this is referring to those who already belonged to the Father at that specific historical moment in which the passage in question unfolds were already believers in the Father, but they had not yet been led to trust in the Son. They had been walking in covenant with the Father through the Law of Moses. However, this was a new era in the history of God's relationship with man. This was the transition from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant in the Son of God. They already honored the Father, but now they would honor the Son through the testimony of the Father. The Father was giving "all things" to the Son (John 3:35, 1 Corinthians 15:24-28). All those who already trusted in the Father were being led by God in the hands of His Son. And, of course, only those who valued God's testimony would be influenced to embrace His Son (John 6:45). 3.- I hope you've been reading what I'm sharing so far. Sister, you seem to be one of those read-only Calvinists, who simply go through the mechanics of skimming through the text but do not actually stop to analyze what is written. I'm saying this because you wrote "Sovereign actually means to have complete power to do as one wills.", but you bring no Scriptures to back that up, while I used Bible verses to support the concept of sovereignty. In fact, my first comment was exclusively devoted to explaining what sovereignty actually means. So I won't go over it again. 4.- You said "Election and predestination are not a bad thing". And I finally agree with you. Yes, election is part of God's plan, and predestination is part of God's plan. Yes, election and predestination belong to our sovereign God. Election and predestination are indeed found in the Bible. The problem is that you have in your mind a Calvinistic understanding of election and predestination, not the biblical meaning of election and predestination. Due to time constraints, we can just summarize both concepts as follows: Election basically has to do with God electing Israel to be the people from whom our Redeemer, the Lord Jesus Christ, would manifest in the flesh. (Genesis 12:1-3, Deuteronomy 7:7-9, Romans 9:4-5, Romans 9:10-13, Galatians 3:16, Ephesians 1:4, etc.). Predestination basically has to do with God decreeing in advance the destiny (pre-destinated, set the destination in advance) of those who, by their own faith, would reconcile with Him through His only begotten Son, our Lord Christ Jesus. So predestination doesn't have to do with "who is going to be in Christ" but with "where we are going in Christ" o "what we are becoming in Christ". (Romans 8:28-30, Ephesians 1:5, etc.). God bless, sister Sarah.

[@stove2717]

Calvinism doesn’t bother to incorporate the Old Testament reference of the potter and the clay. It is abundantly clear the clay became marred in His hand. He didn’t mar it purposefully, but through virtue of itself it became corrupted. Then we see if one repents God will relent upon the disaster He intended to bring. It’s far less genetic or binary than what Calvinism would like to advertise, as biblically you can switch from being a vessel of wrath into one of mercy. The potter makes the rules we just live under His system. Choose wisely

[@williamwagoner7857]

We were subject to vanity unwillingly. Man had free will in the garden and Adam disobeyed and we all fell. We’re all born servants of sin and unless God changes us will continue to be.

[@Qui_Gon_Jinn_76]

Compare Romans 9:22 to Ephesians 2:3. Paul was once a child of wrath which is the same as being a vessel of wrath. Calvinism is a doctrine straight out of hell to confuse and divide people.

[@MrWackywilson]

Only calvinism will prevent you from hearing