Advantage Play & True Persistence Slots with Ari Mizachi

Ari Mizachi explains how True Persistence slots are being milked like ATMs by advantage players, creating an unfair playing field that’s hitting recreational players the hardest and posing a serious threat to the slot economy.
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Host: Mike McKiski

[@MRtwister88]

“We’ve probably all heard the story about the guy flicking a cigarette in someone’s lap” *No sir, none of us have heard that story*

[@flewster]

So he gets his knickers in a bunch because less than 0.1% of players are smart enough to figure out how a game works. I can tell you that I spend more time analyzing and reverse engineering a game than I do playing it. But, somehow, because I am smart enough to do that, somehow, I am the problem. After being an AP for several years, I have seen way more wannabe AP's than actual true AP's that not only know how to analyze and beat a game but also have the discipline to take the money. I understand they are in a business to make money but in reality, TRUE AP's take less than 0.00001% of any revenue. He makes it sound like an AP never loses. I can tell you firsthand that just because a machine is in a great advantage state, it does not guarantee that you will win. I would love to tell the side of an actual AP that can actually analyze, reverse engineer, and has the discipline to win long term. Once a new machine comes out I have to take a ton of metrics to actually break a game down by AVG bonus cycles, AVG units paid per bonus, base game hold, and other metrics that then allow the reverse engineering of it. 99% of AP's do not have the discipline to do this and take wild guesses of what a proper entry point is and lose money long term. I would love to come on and talk about what it takes to be a real AP and what it takes to beat an industry that is hell-bent on treating people that beat them like dirt bags and lowlifes.

[@titaniumpatriot]

I agree, there needs to be more discussion on this. I like these games, and there is a lot to say about a proactive operator that removes the nuisances, I don't think you lose anything in getting rid of these players, and you have variety for your regular players.

[@MaxBetPodcast]

Feels right. We are working to get some casino operators on to discuss this issue from their side.

[@enthusiastjunkies]

How exactly are you ever going to get rid of the player ? People will always figure it out if you keep the same games.... kicking out advantage players when most of them are the ones with the money to finish alot of the games is stupid. I know people who played the must hit by 10k machines who would get absolutely destroyed playing those machines. They would lose 30-40k a night. The average gambler does not have this kind of money to blow. Kicking out high roller advantage players would be absolutely stupid on the casino part, because 9/10 of so called advantage players still lose money

[@SugarShane13]

Or educate yourself and don’t play at a disadvantage??? Oh wait you wanna go plop down and throw your money away, so keep doing it.

[@daabearz123]

A lot of this is true, but the talk surrounding inflated play on a machine because of advantage players is still advantageous for the casino because the casino floor will see an inflated number of handpays and big wins, which gives average joes hope and will keep them coming back to the casino.

[@MaxBetPodcast]

Interesting, I don't know the math... but agree with the psychology. Believing we can win is what keeps us (non-AP players) coming back!

[@thenosa87]

Like they said in the video. It's not all black and white. And this aspect of psychology is a great example.

[@ApteryxRex]

That's not quite correct. The games are not performing abnormally, so the quantity of handpays and big wins would be the same, but the distribution amongst players is different (from non long cycle true persistence games). The conjecture is that recreational players will eventually get turned off the game theme as the paytable is disproportionally weighted to the true persistence prizes, that a) recreational players don't have the time/wallet to pursue, and/or b) recreational players are subtly/overtly pressured into vacating, resulting in poor GX and lessening any loyalty to the game theme. To offset the poor CX/GX the operator would be pushed to keep introducing new game themes and increase marketing expense - and ironically, the marketing expense is likely to g to the players who contribute less to real revenue

[@ApteryxRex]

The long cycle true persistence games can not only contribute to poor gaming and CX experience for recreational players, and foster bad behaviors from AP players (like the old Mystery link syndicates), but the games can burn out faster - making the operator churn the game title / theme faster, making it more expensive for the operator & manufacturers as the pressure to push more game title releases per annum. Implementing new titles to the floor carries a cost, for tech teams, operations teams and marketing. Long cycle games with extremely low top award probability, even without persistence features, can also cause recreational players to experience extremely high house edge. Operators having better understanding of the game math would help with making better informed decisions on the balance of floor mix, volatility, and GX

[@JackpotWarrior]

I play these games because I believe I have skills and strategies AP or not. If you change that possibility, you'd not only lose players like me, the APs, but also the regs.

[@MaxBetPodcast]

It sounded like most of the slot machines these days want to give the illusion that you can predict the outcome, but only a handful can actually be predicted. It sounded like understanding this was the main difference between AP players and retail players. Are you thinking that removing the AP games would make the total casino experience worse for everyone?

[@TrailBlazer5280]

I love this conversation but.. If someone is going to play a slot either way, who cares if it happens to be an AP or a random person? The machines going to pay out in the way it was designed. Kind of silly to boot people on slots imo. I get it for obnoxious people, card counters or other sort of rule stretchers (though i still don't agree with that) but you know, I feel like in the modern day these casinos are nickel and diming people to the point they have forgotten the ways casino's squeeze money out of people. Why they originally offered perks and rewards as well as machine that could pay jackpots etc etc. You keep them there, you keep them tantalized, some lose some win but the house always skims off their profit. Always. Casino's have lost touch with that. Its like they offer a game, THEY OFFER A SCENARIO, an environment, then when they loose oops now they're crying and want to claim advantage play and boot people? That is just shady and silly, get over it. Then again, maybe I'm the one who forgot what a casino is... shady.

[@byrne1916]

Its not a direct cost to the casino, makes everyone feel like they can win and that the house is honest 😜 fills the rooms up... I think hype and fun at a casino is important, if you're too much of an accountant you'll suck the fun out of the place.

[@MaxBetPodcast]

Definitely think that there is a clear inverse correlation between the number of spreadsheets and total amount of fun!

[@shakaslots]

Lots of YT creators already exlpoding with AP players ... thanks for the video !

[@MaxBetPodcast]

Thanks for watching! Agree, lot of good content out there on AP play.

[@pokerstar18]

trust me the casinos are not worried about ap players. casinos still make there profit one way or another. also most ap players i know don’t even use a players card, so the casino is actually losing less in theory since no free rooms, free play food etc is given to said player.

[@aheroictaxidriver3180]

Then why did MGM take away all their points and comps?

[@MaxBetPodcast]

They may not be worried across the board, but I do think they are starting to take notice. For example, it was one of the operators from Hard Rock in Florida that asked us to tackle this interview. I don't see them running AP players out of town, but I do think they are starting to notice.

[@jimmyp7082]

In Atlantic city the borgata and ocean casino have a pay to play system. You pay up to the host they split with top marketing person and let you advantage play the slots and let you keep your promo offers plus they take away your competition who are not paying up. All the casino s are catching on and hosts and casino bosses are making alot of side money with this.

[@tommarsden661]

Losing the coin in from an advantage player can even be plus EV since there's a good chance you make up the coin in from rec players either through offering a better environment with no one hanging over them or from them winning more jackpots and playing more than they are currently.

[@MaxBetPodcast]

Agree. That's certainly the theory, especially the idea that rec players are more likely to re-invest their winnings back into the casino, vs. advantage players who are likely to just Win and Walk.

[@Edward-xd1td]

​Yeah the ones with discipline like myself win and walk and let's be honest we get free play free rooms free gifts free food we win some of the contests and that's the way it is just like in a poker game people who study I can always do better than those who don't the house takes rake from poker games they don't really care who wins and they feel pretty much the same way about slots the coin in is all they care about it's just that we've been able to figure out when to play the games to get the Lion's Share of the Wins.. casinos are starting to crack down the MGM Crackdown and I know a lot of Advantage players that are getting banned these days ​@MaxBetPodcast

[@Sandybestdog]

The opportunity here is being hugely overstated. You aren't printing money on these machines. Also the amount of +ev opportunities are very small, hard to find and there's a lot of competition. A slot player these days best case is to try to break even and profit from the card benefits. Slots still have a +/- 10% hold and that's a lot to overcome. Also no slot ap is ever going to do a long play (more than a couple hundred spins) as discussed without a card. Would never happen. The guy was probably banned at the property.

[@MaxBetPodcast]

Interesting point about using a card. I am with you, I would have assumed that with the amount of play an AP player likely generates that they would be top tier players if they used a card. Hearing that maybe MGM negated the comps, but otherwise, would assume that since AP isn't illegal the points/perks would be pretty solid.

[@Sandybestdog]

@ I doubt MGM is negating comps. That’s not common. They can definitely no promo someone they find less desirable which means taking their freeplay and offers. This is happening a lot these days to people they deem as abusers of offers. But they would let you keep your comps and tier status. Again no AP is not using a card on a slot play.

[@otisreed8951]

If I was a game protection manager, I could identify every single slot AP in about 5 minutes as long as it's at a local casino. In about a week, they'll all be gone. In Vegas or Reno, it's going to be much more difficult to kick out all the slot APs with all the APs who come only for a week a few times a year. Plus in Vegas, APs walk up and down the strip constantly switching properties so it's harder to notice an AP camping at your casino. In general, a slot AP has about a 10%-25% advantage against the casino depending on the specific slot played. However the amount of money you can make on slots is less than in blackjack, because even though counting blackjack only has a 1.5% advantage, when you are betting $100-$500 per hand, you're getting a lot of coin-in. A slot players would struggle to get $10k coin-in per day (unless your playing Thundercash) and then their player advantage percent would struggle. It's very difficult to get a lot of coin-in on slots whilst maintaining a high player advantage percent.

[@SlotChampions]

I thought that the casinos wanted to get rid of APs until they installed dozens of new AP machines. I honestly think they don't care as long as the APs don't directly bother people. AP slot players do have an edge but they do not take money from the house unlike blackjack.

[@Kidpittsburgh007]

If you want to talk about true ap players let me know how to message you. I have been doing high level AP for over a decade now with very high profit. I’d be interested in talking about it from a AP prospective.

[@Kidpittsburgh007]

⁠​⁠@@SlotChampionsthere are certain AP players and teams that will actually annoy recreational players. In the areas that I travel, there are many teams of Asian players that will literally stand right over player’s shoulders when a machine is in a positive state. I’ve had them stand over my shoulder many of times. I find the harassment of players where the problem is. But AP done correctly can be big money. The video is very correct in the amount that can be made in a month.

[@MaxBetPodcast]

Interesting points, and agree not bothering guests is a good move. Though, not sure I understand how this isn't taking money from the house? Are APs targeting progressives, where the funds technically belong to the players?

[@MaxBetPodcast]

In for this! Will message you.

[@wheretoplaygames]

I think they are overestimating the rec players here. I feel like 80% of rec players will pump their $20/$100 predetermined amount into a machine that may even be at 25% HA without batting an eye. If they get a line pay every 5-10 spins, they will spend their predetermined amount. They may not come back to that machine, but someone else will. Especially if it is a popular IP or fun.

[@TheStc123]

Please get a more experienced slot perspective, like Buddy Frank, to discuss true persistence.

[@MaxBetPodcast]

Will reach out to Buddy to see if he can join us. If not, we have been working to schedule other slot operators to come on and continue this discussion.

[@PROmetheusAP]

I have a 22% return with about 300k coin in so far this year on ap slots

[@MaxBetPodcast]

Wow! That's an amazing run.

[@areynolds1990]

Card counting is alive and well.

[@MaxBetPodcast]

Sure seems to be! Just saw an article about a count team who has made over $10 million in 2024. That's a lot of +1s, -1s.

[@jnxythemouse]

Yea I agree… slot APs is what’s new to me

[@areynolds1990]

I actually am torn which one is more profitable because high stakes counting can be a very high hourly.

[@larry08357]

I was an uninformed gambler . now i understand how the game is play by reading the instruction , i suddenly become an undesiarble? it was ok for the casino to take advantage of me when i didn't know how to play ? You aint any more NOBLE than any average person! BUT it 's ok for the industry takes advantage of the uniformed ( i won't use the world STUpd)

[@TheGreatDetectiveKnows]

It’s ridiculous to purchase these games in the first place and then be mad people are considering the mechanics in the game when playing. I wish all these games were removed so that people that actually want to play are there, rather than the same 50 orchestrated vultures circling camping harassing and creating a toxic environment. 99% of APs are horrible people. Even so, I don’t think kicking the players out is the answer that is just not feasible, you are essentially choosing winners and losers. I've seen the casino kick less aggressive vultures in favor of people that treat this like a job, getting rid of their competition; which makes me think backroom deals are going on. The solution is to not have these games be an option in the first place. No clue why that’s so difficult for the casino. It ultimately falls on them to choose non-AP games. Because people are more likely to gamble more if they think they are building towards something? Then create the fake perceived persistence games. Why make real ones and expect literally anything else? Honestly I don’t even understand how these games are profitable for the casino. If you know a game only pays on spin 10 why would you ever get it in spin 1? You might get duped the first time. Once you understand the game there’s no way anyone will sit on that game ever again. Casinos are literally relying on tourists unfamiliar with the game at this point

[@flewster]

Wow, 99%, huh? That's a pretty brave assumption. I would wager that you apparently don't see 99% of APs because 99% of the APs I know are courteous, smart, talented, and have the ability to stay under the radar of casinos and also beat them.

[@TheGreatDetectiveKnows]

@@flewster Well, that's just my experience, and you aren't helping lol. But I think you're more than a little disingenuous if you haven't seen straight up teams scamming regulars off a slot they built up just to swoop in and reap the benefits. And that's APs on a good day. They're horrible, sorry not sorry.

[@enthusiastjunkies]

99% of ap players are horrible people? Little judgy here aren't you ? So the guy trying to make money and support a family is horrible, but the casual gambler who is most likely losing money and dealing with a gambling addiction is the good one ? Make it make sense

[@TheGreatDetectiveKnows]

@@enthusiastjunkies Yes, judgment is necessary. How about you get a real job that doesn't rely on taking advantage of elderly people not understanding a slot? Nobody said gambling or addiction is a 'good' activity, and nobody said making money is bad [it's /how/ you make it] but if you need to resort to straw-manning and trying to rationalize your behavior by saying these people deserve being scammed then maybe deep down you understand that what you are doing is trashy. Again, you are proving my point that you are crappy people when you all respond defensively and arrogantly under multiple comments. I get you're upset that people are catching on but it's the right thing to do. You should be happy I'm /still/ defending you and putting the responsibility on the casino despite being physically attacked multiple times by your kind for warning ploppies. Those aren't your wins. You're like a sleazy car salesman targeting the old person, the tourist, someone vulnerable that doesn't understand what you're doing and scamming them and expecting me to not judge you? Give me a break.

[@larry08357]

card counting is NOT a tremendous advantage! The player can lose foe hundreds of hours!! Lmao

[@MaxBetPodcast]

Agree! We actually interviewed a card counter in the past, and he gave us the insights on the card counting lifestyle... definitely did not sound glamorous! kzbin.info/www/bejne/eoXNiHebp65lZ9k

[@enthusiastjunkies]

This guy acts as if all advantage players make money 😂. I would say 9/10 slot advantage players still have some sort of gambling problem. You can easily lose on so called advantage plays and easily go on tilt inside a casino. I'm sure the casino banks on this.

[@NJslotguy]

THIS!!!!! You have to have incredible control when it comes to being an AP player. I am YET to see a complete AP player as a creator. All of the rest in comments and throughout the web are just word of mouth with NO PROOF. 99.9% of AP players are also degenerate gamblers which means they can make profit on advantage playing but then end up losing it chasing something else. PERIOD.

[@MaxBetPodcast]

Wait... do all Advantage Players not just print money?! Agree with your comments, we will work on interviewing a real AP player(s) and try to get the other side of the picture as well.

[@nickbowenfishing2885]

Facts

[@PearlySportsCards]

great video

[@peterwhite2182]

Not going to sit around for someone to lose leaving a good play, seems scummy. Therefore i quit slots cause if you have to go pee and your machine is built up there no chance it will be available with these vultures.

[@MaxBetPodcast]

I do think this is the side of the Advantage Play program that casinos are most worried about. Especially when the behavior changes from just lingering to more aggressive acts. Though, I think this is a very small number of the AP players, it gets a lot of attention.

[@user-mg4ov6nx7x]

Ari has no idea what he’s talking about. They removed a ton of AP games here in Reno. A market where both locals and tourists are equal customers. As a result the YOY gaming revenue slipped over 4 percent. Whereas in Vegas slot Revenue holds increased. AP’s don’t negatively affect the casinos bottom line at all. The older couple that never wins keeps coming back in hopes to one day win. Now as far as AP’s who take room comps and live on property they’re a different breed who should be 86ed. Which is what MGM did minus the kicking out part. All their comps were removed.

[@MaxBetPodcast]

Not as familiar with the MGM comp removals, but I do know that Reno casino operators took a big stance against true persistence. The owner of Atlantis wrote an open letter against those games, and most of the market followed his lead in removing them.