Adventures in Hacking EverQuest (and getting banned on p99)

[@0xFFFFFU]

The first thing I want to say is that as a fellow software engineer, I'm extremely impressed by the quality and polish of your tools. This is a better UI and experience than 99% of finished products out there. Well done! Also thank you for letting us get a peek behind the curtain. I know that P99 introduced some sort of obfuscation with the netcode at some point to try and deter client-side sniffing. Any chance you can talk about that, how you identified and overcame it? I'd love to have a walk through of how things work, like warping. Are you just sending "my location is x,y,z"?

[@knervous9471]

@@0xFFFFFU thanks man! I try to hold myself to a high standard with writing code and my day job is a full stack programmer so familiar with typical UX and requirements. I’d be happy to chat about the whole process, feel free to ping me on the eqemu Discord under temp0

[@wigf173]

You should update the P99 wiki with the actual ZEMs for zones, that would be interesting to see.

[@SadisticStang]

Everyone bump,like this ...super important to have accurate zone modifier rates

[@knervous9471]

Eheh I can take a look but I think they stopped sending that info in the zone header before Titanium. Wiki theorycrafting for p99 is legit data science as it stands anyway!

[@BoomerElite4u]

Seeing the game from this angle is interesting, and makes me appreciate the level of detail they put into making the zones. Really impressive given the time period.

[@bmo5082]

This is actually really good that you are show-casing these abilities. For someone like me who has never "cheated" or used mods in EQ, it makes me wonder if many at the very top are using these.

[@testng987]

seal team guild on p1999 has a lot of cheaters like this, they have the same kind of tools.

[@knervous9471]

I think competitive gamers willing to cheat just use the most effective and competitive tools, I remember hearing about an era of "harmtouch wars" where guilds would have SK bots lined up waiting for a mob to spawn that would be automatically targeted, warped to and harm touched. Pretty lame if you ask me, but competers gonna compete

[@SoyAntonioGaming]

If the tools are man-made, there is no wrongdoing by using them. It's just enhanced gameplay.

[@bmo5082]

@@knervous9471 that seems to fall within the games mechanics but yes it seems to be pushing the lines. One might say the same about bard AOE kiting - it’s simply way way overpowered and something I don’t think was originally intended by the devs. Mechanically, internet connections and ping were bad enough, not to mention that most PCs weren’t able to hand that type of stress in 1999/2000.

[@BoomerElite4u]

@@knervous9471 I don't consider it competing. It's the same reason I never though hacking in Diablo 2 was fun. It just killed the entire point of the game for me. Like it would be super easy for me to use a VPN to log on my druid for quick buffs/teleports and never be in the game long enough to get caught, but I would never do that because I play EverQuest for the true classic experience. If I wanted to box I would just go play TLPs.

[@DigitalMocking]

Love advanced maps, it's amazing. I just shot you a message on discord about a potential bug, if I'm doin something wrong, I wouldn't be surprised. Amazing stuff, I used to play with MQ and MQ2 way back in the day, but it took so much fun out of things, glad you're not releasing this, but it was pretty cool to see.

[@maxpower2511]

Now I can see how people took advantage on some of the PvP servers I played on which were not P1999. At the end of the day, I do not think they actually monitor things but rely on people reporting people for boxing etc.

[@Misterscout]

DUDE that's awesome just for recording raids, with the map app you made.

[@intisumac8535]

What system would I need to play EverQuest and the upcoming games like Panthron and ashes of creation?

[@Nanan00]

That addon is very impressive.

[@gtomo]

The tech of this is very cool and really impressive. That said, ngl this sort of thing is what killed P99/EQ for me and led me to quit for good. It just made me realize how utterly pointless it all is once you realize there are a not insignificant number of people doing this type of stuff. Maybe not to this level but along these lines and impacting the economy etc.. Hacking has always been a thing of course but idk, this is just.. too much for me. Kudos to P99 devs trying their best though. I can imagine its exhausting fighting it. But yeah it just sucks the joy out of it for me personally I guess. I respect that you were able to change your outlook on it a bit though after getting banned. If this knowledge could be used to someday protect against this sort of stuff that's certainly a good thing, for the health of the game at least. And before anyone says it. I know every game has some level of hacking going on, I know all time spent playing video games is ultimately pointless, life is ultimately pointless blah blah...Just please, don't bother.

[@davidlazerz8564]

"And before someone points out the reason why my whole outlook is pointless just know I will ignore it because I dont want to face the fact that video gaming isnt anything more than tine wasting fun."

[@gtomo]

@@davidlazerz8564 Thanks for explicitly doing what I already called someone would do. Exactly right, because no justification is required for why I do or do not enjoy something. My brain either enjoys it or it doesn't, that's all. Same for everyone else. There are many who feel the same way I do and perhaps some who can still enjoy it despite this sort of stuff, glad if that's the case for you, enjoy.

[@gtomo]

@@davidlazerz8564 Thanks for explicitly doing what I already called someone would do. Exactly right, because justification isn't required for why I do or do not enjoy something. Either my brain enjoys it or it doesn't, that's all. Same for everyone else. There are many who feel the same way as me and perhaps some who can still enjoy it despite this sort of stuff. I'm glad if that's the case for you, enjoy.

[@gtomo]

Thanks for explicitly doing what I already called someone would do. Exactly right, because justification isn't required for why I do or do not enjoy something. Either my brain enjoys it or it doesn't, simple as that. Same for everyone else. There are many who feel the same way I do and perhaps some who can enjoy it despite this sort of stuff. I'm glad if that's the case for you, enjoy.

[@knervous9471]

Totally get it, and I know what I was doing was "wrong" here; I still tried to keep a sense of ethics i.e. not engaging in areas where other people were playing, or just avoiding other players altogether if I was using these tools. I can imagine a lot of people have the baseline MQ2 set up and are using it to get a competitive edge, that sucks imo. Can't compete legit against those types of players. If I had access to the codebase I'd root em out 8)

[@demris15]

That amazing... I 100% agree... there is no need to go above and beyond with this game. I appreciate THJ team for giving people a similar boxing experience as a solo player.

[@alexandermeyer317]

Im having a blast on the heros journey! join us, 1400 concurrent players, kunark comes out this Friday!

[@Aphex26]

Thats so interesting, cant wait for more stuff like this.

[@jdestef]

Very cool. Always wanted JS support for macroquest!

[@knervous9471]

That's the most enthusiastic response I've gotten to the nodejs engine yet, haha. Not many people are on board ;) Not for the faint of heart and this is node14 but here is the repo from years ago for mq2node: gitlab.com/knervous/mq2node

[@haihod6356]

very cool!

[@Sandaormo1]

This guy is a top player if you stay in the first 5 zones of EQ

[@kurticusmaximus]

Bro, as a long time p99 player, this was hilarious. Suffering through EQ’s misery for years, and seeing you warp, just made the whole thing seem like a giant joke. I laughed like a desert madman (desert of Ro)

[@nathanryan12]

“Lua’s not a real programming language, so I embedded a NodeJS engine” 🤔 interesting take 😊 I have to say this is an awesome project!

[@Ykesha]

lmao the tool fan comparison is so true.

[@kirksneckchop7873]

I've been a fan since undertow released, and I've never heard of this.

[@Ykesha]

@@kirksneckchop7873 A lot of it is just tongue and cheek but tool has a vocal sect of its fanbase that is incredibly pretentious and even overbearing on the band. There is an article in NME you can check out with Maynard's perspective on it, its called "Tool frontman explains why he called his own fans ‘insufferable ret*rds’". I think its kind of a thing even dating back to the song H**ker with a p*nis where the OGT (original gangster tool) guy calls them sell outs.

[@guysmiley4830]

How did Tool fans ruin Tool? Actual question, I'm not challenging the assertion.

[@Ykesha]

@@guysmiley4830 Its kinda tongue and cheek but there is a very vocal group of super fans who worship the band and annoy the band members and claim the band is the best in the world and every other band is garbage. The band has talked about them since 96 with the "OGT since 92" line, also check out an online article on NME called "Tool frontman labels band's own fans as 'insufferable r-t-rds".

[@_i_6946]

On p99 in like 2012 or 2013 - I watched Rogean read someone who was cheating their full name over a live stream - Rogean said he only knew it because the windows account the person was logged into used their real name. Whatever anti-cheat p99 uses, it has all the access it needs to prevent cheating and a lot more. Their detection is not automated, but once they have a reason to focus you its over because they have all the access they need.

[@Core1138]

I write lots of advanced PowerShell scripts for work. How do I take this interest and level that up, please?

[@bubbavox]

I have a conspiracy theory: the admins were watching you for a long time before the ban... fascinated by your 1337 hacking, or gathering useful data from it. Seems like a lot of fun though. Macros, UI mods, etc, are the most fun I've had with EQ. I got banned from P99 for using AHK to auto forage. Probably shouldn't have named the macro 'auto forage'. (Well OK, probably shouldn't have been breaking the rules).

[@knervous9471]

@@bubbavox seems like such a small thing to ban a whole account over! Hope those were some tasty roots you were foraging

[@squishfaceofsaryrn]

Love it

[@tmcnairbledsoe]

This is great! I hacked a bit for camping (manastpne 2 day camp) but i didnt know mq and all you did. Its really entertaining.

[@Wade-1]

What are VMs?

[@zatai10]

this is brilliant gdamn, looks amazingly fun too lol. i liked how it does look like a game within a game as you go from first person to an overhead rts style game.

[@shimapanzer9930]

interesting vid, but honestly these kinds of tools really ended up ruining the game for me. never got to see how they work, because i quit before i fell down the "apathetic casual turned cheater" rabbit hole most people have on live, never knew it was an overhead view like that. thanks for the vid, even if i have conflicting feelings on the tools in general lol

[@KennTollens]

Did you make that whole program with node js?

[@VoodooRob75]

Fun little things... not stepping on toes... thats exactly how I used MQ

[@mattmoto]

Was any of this done with ai chatgpt etc ?

[@knervous9471]

@@mattmoto at the time I wrote this, no I didn’t use any ai assistance. I use chatgpt all the time nowadays though, I think it’s a great tool for programmers to get things done quicker. Still have to understand core programming concepts to use it correctly I think, but as long as you toe that line carefully of having it generate code and knowing what that code is doing, it’s all good.

[@BeastmanWatchUrMouth]

i got sent to the qeynos aquaducts for this :(

[@chadwickmccarty4944]

This is one/many of those things I've always thought should be allowed on a specific server. Probably not a PvP server but a PvE server. Id probably still be playing EQ/EQ2 today if I could utilize tools like this & have bots for a complete group. I don't mind admitting a lot of your lingo is above my knowledge lol

[@justinbennett9998]

Mq2 got my ranger banned. Rip "wayfar outhere"

[@brendanpr21]

I like your Tool analogy lol. Same thing happened with Diablo 2 back in the day just crazy amounts of hacking where it was fun at first then just ruined the economy

[@knervous9471]

Haha oh man that’s where it all started for me, Diablo 1 and 2 hacking. Where I learned about packets and client/server communication back in 2001 or so. I remember the dupe method from herzog_zwei sending sell packets with an item on your cursor

[@boot-strapper]

Good stuff

[@blargblarg-jargon9607]

i'm struggling to imagine this making eq fun, can i buy your hacks?

[@williehart2479]

Thank you for teaching me the word copacetic! i love learning new words.

[@MrGlentc]

What do the Devs of P99 view of this application?

[@knervous9471]

@@MrGlentc p99 devs hate this one weird trick! In all honesty since it’s against their TOS they can only think negatively of people using 3rd party software. Maybe silver lining is me highlighting how I (back then) would have tried to overcome clientside detection. I’m an open book and would be happy to talk about how to make their stuff more resilient to people trying harder than normal.

[@F44zz]

@@knervous9471 The GMs were all taking money to create items for high end raid guilds back in the day. They dont want you to impose on their business!

[@alovingrobot406]

Mess with Monsters and Memories at all? We're always down to chat if you find anything fun.

[@guysmiley4830]

@@alovingrobot406 Trying to ruin the game before it even comes out? C'mon man

[@alovingrobot406]

@@guysmiley4830 Hey... we've had decent luck so far with people helping us with vulnerabilities they've found. It's good to get the info, since it's not like they're going away. 😀

[@agnescas3402]

Overpowered like f

[@Kenji314159]

You kinda look like John McAfee if he didn't do drugs and played EverQuest for fun.

[@Electrichead64]

Always great targeting a raid leader to assist and seeing they have a mob targeted that's not in their line of sight.

[@Misterscout]

I also can't wait till someone injects an AI model to play the game.

[@Sourpickels]

Very cool would love to learn how you did it all. But I need you to explain it all to me like I was a year old

[@RobertGagnier]

Your a wizard!

[@archon5951]

you're

[@_Wake_Up_If_U_Can]

I enjoy playing the game on live using Brewall's maps and recently added Good's maps. Every game we own that allows hosting our own server is ruined the moment we enable admin privileges and start spawning stuff in using creative mode. Games like Ark Survival, or Dark and Light, or Rust, or Conan Exiles have creative mode. Any admin mode for EQ would ruin the game for us and because we know this first hand from Ark & Conan Exiles & Rust & 7 Days to Die & Icarus, I wouldn't even try something considered safe like a key broadcaster like IS Boxer because it would take away the magic of the game. Not trying to detract from your clear technical skills and high interest in what you are doing, but it seems to ruin the concept of an escape from reality at least for us.

[@knervous9471]

@@_Wake_Up_If_U_Can I think you touched on exactly what the tipping point was for me with this project, and I completely agree with you. The coding/hacking became the game itself and I lost touch with what I was doing in eq, so I pushed the envelope and went hard enough until something external happened ;) anytime I plan on playing eq in the future it will be wholly without cheats

[@phenolicresinoid]

what was the word Tameeta? @0:54

[@knervous9471]

@@phenolicresinoid themida, they use this software to obfuscate their custom code and make it more hack proof.

[@earshelhogan6148]

Themida

[@yearofthegarden]

It's interesting to see these types of perspectives after the era, because I remember meeting a few everquest players and they were all of a very special breed. Some Los causes but many impressively intelligent. I could see how ever quest was a great game to make your own. I played asherons call and wow

[@_jordoz]

that mic isn't helping. it's just enhancing your mouth noises and breathing lol.

[@losthewar]

Gana need a spoofer

[@IamTCM]

If you want to level up your technical skills, you should reverse their client detections. They're not complicated and you can probably figure out how to bypass them, hint eq doesn't need to run as root, how would you hide a dll from a lower privileged process?

[@knervous9471]

Yep it's on the to-do list, just for academic purposes... I've got the Themida layer unpacked and up and running in IDA, just haven't had the time to dive into it yet. Would want to restore the original entrypoint first and then probably binary mods on the unnecessary parts of the DLL, or depending on the load order make another dll proxy and hook before dsetup is loaded. Could theoretically just write the necessary parts like the packet hashing, list command, afk check packet handling in another lib entirely. If you've got some experience and want to talk shop would love to chat on Discord.

[@jjrevis]

​@@knervous9471I've heard their dll is super intrusive from another developer. Any comment on that?

[@knervous9471]

@@jjrevis Y'know I took a quick look and wasn't seeing anything incredibly flagrant with its custom code... Doesn't seem to enumerate process handles or look for loaded modules. Maybe the only thing I saw was loading a dll called imagehlp.dll that can get information about modules but haven't traced back to where it's used. Themida on the other hand is pretty aggressive and installs lots of low level hooks on kernel32.dll. I'd say the biggest one that I guessed here in the video and had outside anecdotal validation with is VM detection. Don't run p99 in a VM!

[@jjrevis]

​@@knervous9471definitely interesting. Saw a post a while back from Secrets talking about how much information about you and your PC the dll gave them access to but never dug deeper.

[@testng987]

@@knervous9471 themida's VM detection is actually pretty bad and easily bypassable with knowledge like yours

[@The-J-Mod]

Cool video, would like a more detailed breakdown tbh

[@PigNathe]

Cheaters are ultimately cowards. I do not condone.

[@guysmiley4830]

I don't buy the "just for fun" excuse. It's only fun because it grants you an unfair advantage at the expense of non-cheating players. If that weren't the case, they would just be doing it on their own private servers.

[@_i_6946]

This guy figured out anti-cheat - just don't condone it guys.

[@bojcio]

wow yea...great job...ruiner of games

[@whateverppl1229]

nice