Stats are USELESS in EverQuest!

Stats are useless in trilogy era EverQuest. Shift your mindset on TLP servers, gear sucks!
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[@classicmmoguy]

Regarding comments negating the results from the needlite test: I just finished two overnight agi test versus the level 50 combat dummies in the arena (I faced toward the dummy during the test). I can now confirm that the results are very similar versus a gray con and a white con, and that agi does not impact dodge, block, or riposte chance. The decrease in the mobs accuracy was slightly slower at -2.44pts (58.44% unbuffed vs 56% buffed) with a net change of 145 agi. The average hit also did not change due to the miniscule gain in mitigation side AC. As others have pointed out the ~3pts of avoidance is worth ~8% less dmg taken. Not an insignificant number, however, I do still stand by the conclusion that the return per point of agility is very low, and given the option, you should choose items with higher AC as a defensive stat. EverQuest isn't played in a vacuum of course, and some items may come with both AC and Agi (gasp). This entire subject also doesn't matter for very long as we become stat capped without trying as early as velious. Thanks for the discussion!

[@legbert123]

Your math in everything is sooo bad. You dont take position into consideration and fail on so many levels.

[@Aziuno]

I think 25AGI = 1 AC, it is very marginal. That is Armor Class, not avoidance. You can see on the character sheet there is AC/Avoidance. If you Buff AGI you shouldn't see avoidance go up at all, just AC, roughly 1 per 25 points of AGI. Also in this demo, you are encumbering a monk which gives them an AVOIDANCE penalty. You should probably use another class or have a non encumbered monk. Either way, I agree, Agility is a very minor stat other than the min maxing warrior who is trying to get as much AC as possible. This AC is flat, it is not modified by AC Softcaps. The results you are seeing are actually from AC being increased, nothing else.

[@roboparks]

@@Aziuno Does AGI affect Doge skill? And AC only Effects Chain and Plate wearers . Wars get a special AC buff each lvl I believe.

[@FirstNameLastName-okayyoutube]

I've been thinking about this video lately and I realized that it is possible that the live and test servers skewed stats like agility in order to accomidate for lvl 100++ to normalize % outcomes. Such that it screwed over the lower levels. Making dummy tests unable to represent TLP server outcomes. It could be they even intended, succeeded, or entirely overlooked, how that change to % per point ratio would adjust due to active expansion on that server.

[@Merknilash]

I played EQ back in 1999 and one of my pet peeves even back then was how obvious it was that most of the stats in the game were absolutely useless - or did so little for massive amounts. I had a Shaman and early on we thought stats mattered so I would buff everyone's agility, dex, str, etc. Turns out dex and agi were both completely worthless, stamina was just a tiny HP buff, and str was a crappy damage buff. Of all the things I miss about EQ, that isn't one of them

[@Fueamil]

I could be wrong but I thought agility helped dodge but you won’t dodge when getting hit from behind.

[@classicmmoguy]

I don't think that it does, but now you got me wanting to parse it to be 100% sure.

[@CAiNiAC]

The needlite test is flawed simply due to level discrepancy I think. I believe level has an impact on mobs landing hits as well. In addition, you're not accounting for the AC reducing DMG per hit as well.

[@classicmmoguy]

The additional Mitigation side AC that it added was not enough to decrease the average hit from the needlite (I did check for this). I agree it is not a 100% perfect test, but I do believe it is directionally very accurate in concluding that agility is a terrible stat.

[@CAiNiAC]

@@classicmmoguy I think testing with mobs and players of equal or within 5 levels of each other to yield a much more conclusive result.

[@hom-sha-bom]

@@classicmmoguy why didn't you parse the level 50 test npc hitting you from the front? you can make it heal all your damage, so your parse will still see his accuracy and damage an you will still live for an hour of tanking him.

[@stevenadams9887]

I mean, I'm 5min into the video and the stats are effectively doubling everything?

[@jdestef]

Lv22 attacking a 50 is already going to be missing most of the time. You need to do even con or blue con.

[@bdetert82]

Armor, HP, Mana, Strength. Those are pretty much the only stats you care about.

[@bluman1bm]

For many many years. I have always said AC is king. Thank you for proving it.

[@hom-sha-bom]

Hold on. A 3% absolute decrease in mob's hit rate when it's hits you 35% of the time, is really an 8.5% reduction in damage taken. It's a lot more useful than the way that you are choosing to phrase it.

[@classicmmoguy]

I hear you, but you're going to have to get 50 agility to get 1/3rd of that benefit. My point was that at that low of a return, it's silly to stack agility, and very silly to wear gear with small amounts of agility here or there.

[@elevatormusicirelia9043]

The math is terrible, and I'm not even a math guy. I understand stats are meaningless at low lvls without combining a lot of factors, but at the end game things really do mesh well together when you combine it all. It's very complicated and raising one stat alone will never yield accurate results.

[@classicmmoguy]

Yes it is only relevant during early game. Late game you are auto stat capped so none of this matters.

[@dluxx7378]

His math is way off in both tests, not to mention he can't take into effect game mechanics. A more accurate test would be a lvl1 vs lvl1, not a lvl 22 vs a lvl 50 for example. His data would look a LOT different if he compiled the average hits across consider levels. Greys are going to hit at a different rate and amount simply due to level, it's reduced by the game so severely that testing a grey isn't a good or accurate test. Perform that same test but reverse the roles and mobs who are nearly 30 levels your superior are going to smack you around for nearly max hit every time regardless of AGI or the benefits it may provide or any other buffs you might have for that matter. For accurate data you need to perform an apples to apples. White con npc's which you can't do accurately (without a lot of trouble anyway) with in game mechanics on live servers due to bouncing agro from external heals etc. All of this is easily blown up by a survivability test. Stand equal level/class/race toons in front of the same mob getting beat on, one naked and one with full gear. If the Character with more stats dies last Stats aren't useless, if he dies around the same time then run free with the knowledge that you can just play EQ, experience ALL the content and don't have to worry or care about acquiring gear....

[@legbert123]

@@classicmmoguy But is it useless as you say and are there some combination of gear that can take advantage of this?

[@Igorath]

Did you take into account the skill (hand to hand, dodge, etc) levels? Also regarding procs, soe nerf'd them long ago and I don't believe dbg reverted them. Just look at the Headshot, Decapitate, and Assassinate nerfs. They can only proc 1-2 times a minute. This might affect the results.

[@bzrkmaniac7157]

Good to know. Not going to lie, I thought DEX was super important.

[@herogibson]

it is. doubling your proc rate is super important

[@gabrielbachman6154]

So long time EQ player 99-current only done 2 TLP server's, mostly stick to live. This is a great video for new players (sorta). Sometimes i take forgranted whats "common" knowledge as a long time player. Most veterans understand most of this information. Most items classic-velious that are high value are those that provide raw stat boosts like +100 hp or +25 attack ect .. i think this video is great quality but me personally would have liked it if you included the mentioned above for new players. Keep up the good work

[@Merknilash]

the uselessness of primary stats in EQ, and stat caps - which was awful game design - is why the gear started focusing on +hp, +mana, +regen, and +atk - and then other modifiers later on.

[@johnsullivanmusic2719]

most important thing for AGI is to not have under 75. So ogres almost always wanna put 5 points into agi at char creation being under 75 is like a 20-30 AC Penalty and slight movment penalty. After that point agi is wholly useless except for buffing yourself as a buffer for any agi debuffs so u dont fall below 75.

[@elevatormusicirelia9043]

The reason you aren't seeing gains is because you are not putting into perspective the big picture and how various systems affect each other. When ONE stat is raised above others, you miss out on how these systems work as a whole when working in conjunction with one another. I'm not really a math guy, but even I can see that you are not doing this math correctly either. Consider this, if you were to isolate AC but itself, it along with HP are easily the best stats for surviving, but when you are at max lvl, with max defense skills, have high AC that is pushing diminishing returns, and you will see a much better idea how the stats like AGI add padding to the ceiling. You might be very close to reaching a new breakpoint from AC, but it will be 50 points of AGI that actually pushes you to it with all your gear on. Likewise, you might be very close to reaching a new threshold in your melee damage ratio, but its the combination of several stats together that make it happen, No Single Stat by itself is capable of doing it. I could be wrong, but I think stats play a slightly higher role than you are giving credit for when you are talking about a max character with a full set of gear. When you already have great AC from armor, AGI and Dodge add onto the top end in a way that pure ac will not be able to, due to diminishing returns. It isn't just ONE stat getting raised that makes the change, it is having high str, Dex and ratio together that makes a difference. 255 str and 255 dex play off of each other like flavors in a dish, you have to use them both in order to get the full effects of the other. Cool video, but woefully inaccurate. Even your sample sizes aren't large enough to be considered an actual study.

[@classicmmoguy]

This is really only intended to be directional, and is admittedly only relevant during very early days in EQ. The reality is your stats will be capped in Velious and from then on there are no stat based decisions to be made. The entire point of the video is to state that equipping a +3 dex or agi item is doing effectively nothing for your character. So is equipping 10 of those items. Thanks for the comment.

[@MP-db5dx]

Agi buff has 2 uses; getting a caster of the 70 point minimum threshold and to be used on tanks since it gives % mitigation though not a ton. Dex buff gives small gains to all and passing that buff between multiple characters multiplies the amounts you mention by each person benefiting from the buff. In classic EQ all gains are small; most gear doesn't even have stats in classic Era. Warrior increasing proc rate might not sound like mich also but one proc and you have agro; increasing that and your ac is king in classic and most gear with high ac has no stats. Same with str buff; each person that has the buff in the group adds to the overall benefit of the buff. Just as Dex and the melee stats might not apply to some classes Wis/int doesn't apply to melee. Each buff has its place and although they might be small gains and not seem obvious a lot of that has to do with them changing the way stats worked from beta to live. For example in original EQ int was a useful stat for leveling warriors to keep your skill stats higher (maxing took forever). Great video I love delving into the numbers so keep it up.

[@everlasts]

Interesting, I used to believe STA is king for melee class in EverQuest after Shadow of Luclin, STA == more HP , gives more room to take higher hits. And STA gear are not common and usually quite expensive to get . STR is fairly easy to max out in high level. So my eyes alway shine on high STA , HP and AC gear :) just my 2 cents.

[@e-rock2564]

We've known most of the stats are useless since the game released. The only stat to mostly focus on would be flat hps then stamina

[@ClassicEverQuest]

Mmmm nom nom nombers

[@Thebuffshaman]

Unfortunately what this video fails to calculate is if you're calculating the agility in a vacuum like this it looks worse than it ends up being. Agility dents to get you over certain break-points with higher end encounters for both avoidance and mitigation. Testing vs the needlite is a bad test because a lot of what's going into the equations for the one being hit are not being accounted for here and a ton of extra not being hit is happening due to level differences. Playing tanks in raiding situations you notice when you gain 5 points of agility even though the piece you equipped has 1 less hard AC on it because you gained it back and a little more through agi. It also bears out in parses and though you might not think small % boosts mean much Everquest is a game of inches. Gain an inch a little better, gain an inch a little better, gain an inch a little better, eventually you gain that inch that suddenly changes the whole calculation. A few inches after that and it changes again. Your goal isn't to hit 255 in a stat, it's to gain just that one more inch, it's small but not useless. In terms of useless stats Charisma comes to mind. They figured out at some point that it was bugged since the beginning so it wasn't actually doing anything for chanters and bards until stat cap increases and then very little. Level gains however were doing things that were supposed to happen with said increases that were similar to what charisma claimed it was doing. It went pretty much unnoticed until Daybreak took it over.

[@DraconiusDragora]

If my memory serves, the higher level you go, the more Dexterity and Agility you also require for them to really take effect. So a level 1 may get way more from 10 Agility, than someone who is level 50. While other stats is the opposite where their effects are stronger based on higher levels. But since the Stat Cap is 255 (Till lvl 61-75 which will add a total of 75 more to the stat cap for a total of 330), and you need about 6 times that, for Agility and Dexterity to be of decent to great use. Yeah they fall off quickly. However this is only if my memory is correct, I might just be mixing another game up with Everquest, and misremembering things.

[@retrofamilyfun]

What about dex for bard?

[@TheBMWBUM]

MASSIVE reduction in missed note, soft cap ~170ish on dex - also where it hits 2 proc per minute and goimg to 255 from there is only like 2.2 proc per minute

[@YawnGod]

Cool video, but I can imagine during the age of slower internet and graphics cards that going from 1 proc per minute to 1 proc every 30 seconds would make a player feel they are playing 100% more than they otherwise would be. I mean, EQ can't just be a MUD with graphics, now can it?

[@Daygard1]

Truly one of the worst games ever made. soooooooo boring and near impossible to level just grinding mobs. Stats, gear, do make a small difference. still its just small zones with some quests that are way to hard to do without reading some info on another site. 1 to 10 id give this game a solid 3!

[@2snek]

It's not hard to cap dex with shaman buff in Kunark era and doubling your PPM as a Warrior is pretty good. Worth the buff slot if you ask me.

[@ErikShaferFaelor]

I look forward to the videos from people who are disputing the claims and stating the testing wasn't comprehensive enough.

[@Merknilash]

the comments are full of it and then you have people like me spam commenting back at them, which is almost just as bad

[@legbert123]

Why do people play the first three expansion in eq over and over and over again?

[@michaelswenson6599]

To get items only available then

[@nickschott8343]

Was the best version of the game to some. After these, many players felt the game started to go downhill. Luclin, and planes of power were big hits to the younger players because it was "easy" and required less work. (Traveling) Where as the original 3 that everyone replays was more difficult, had a much stronger community and came with a greater sense of pride / accomplishment when reaching your goals. It's all about preference really. It was the classic game as we knew it. Before all the gibberish was added. Not saying I didn't enjoy the newer stuff, because I most definitely did. But back then, we had no bazaar, if we wanted to travel, we ran or interacted with others to catch a ride. Just a simpler time for an older generation of gamers

[@robertfugate2232]

Because it's when the game was good. Everything after Velious was bad. The true trilogy

[@mogwaiman6048]

It's considered the golden age.

[@pinnacleexpress420]

so are they gonna fuckin drop Luclin on blue and red or what? give me kerran and kejekan skins if needed bro idgaf Ill draw a set of armor for them myself Luclin added way too many good zones especially lower level ones and apparently it made Rangers ranged attacks viable? the spires were such a cool mechanic before PoK

[@redthorne1129]

Doubling a proc rate is bad? SSoY has one of the worst proc rates in Vanilla. Take something that procs 5x a minute and make it 10. Big noticable difference. Also, where's dodge? parry? riposte? Isn't dex or agi supposed to help with the rate of those? Small increases on multiple ways to avoid damage can be very useful. And suddenly 1% more damage per 10 str is a ton but 9% less damage taken from 150 agi isn't? Buncha garbage and you're lucky to have 263 people willing to take this crap as gospel.

[@classicmmoguy]

Stack agi and dex and prosper bud, GL!

[@elevatormusicirelia9043]

@@classicmmoguy Classicmmoguy is just mad because his stats suck, so now he made a video to prove it doesn't matter his stats suck. Why not just take two monks, one with great gear, one without, and see who parses better while they hold the same weapons.

[@classicmmoguy]

The only damage increase would come from Strength....which is why I isolated stats.

[@richardlonigro4178]

Don’t play with math people they’ll come for ya 😂

[@flalife904]

At the end if the day esp leveling from 1-59 +HP +MANA is king , at 60 maxing a stat to 255 give Huge diminishing returns . You want AC from gear prices, HP , and mana ...

[@mogwaiman6048]

Yeah power progression from stats was minimal in EQ. You're trash and your friends are trash, so get to grouping. Unless you're a good solo class of course.

[@legbert123]

Play on live FFS why do you care about ancient mechanics that are probably changed every tlp for years and years. Find a baseline. This player base has schizophrenia.

[@Drew_2308]

except if you're not getting hit then AC isn't doing shit for you and the hps from stamina can be helping you absorb more ae's and if you're a monk every bit of hps you get add to the heal you get from mend

[@UndefinedVibe]

Never played EQ, but enjoyed your analysis thoroughly. :)

[@tommcclellan3284]

I'm not trying to be a hater but did you legit just fight the mob once without AGI and once with, and call it a day? Its like you rolled dice once and solved the game of craps. Also the proc rate literally doubled, that sounds worth pursuing no?

[@classicmmoguy]

Haha fair question. No I stated at the beginning of the video that most parses were 1-3hrs in length. I did not mention this in the video, but some were 12+ hrs in length over night. Going from 0.1 cent to 0.2 cents is also doubling, but that doesn't mean I suddenly have a ton of money in my pocket. It's relative. Proccing twice in a minute versus one time in a minute isn't going to move the needle AND you have to stack absurd levels of dex to achieve this result in the first place. It's a bad stat.

[@tommcclellan3284]

@@classicmmoguy Lol fair play on the parsing, I was flabbergasted by the quick cuts. I think we just have different definitions of USELESS. I'd take the player with the better stats in my group 100% of the time, if all else was equal. Since all the stats are USELESS the tiny gains and advantages you create become fun to mess with. But yes at the end of the day we are all nerds playing elf sim number game - cheers and have fun.

[@clwnthr]

​@@classicmmoguy If you're e.g. proccing Ghoulbane at lvl 20 in classic, it's somewhat worth it. It's all relative, really 😊

[@piromaniac9999]

That is bullshit Stamina=more hp tanks stack hp Necros stack stamina and hp for more mana shamans need stamina for more health every 10 int is 100 mana pre 200 and once over 200 the conversions is less This is MASSIVE pre luclin where gear is a lot rarer and getting to 200 adn up is harder You don't know what you are talking about man you are clueless. Your misinformation is going to get people killed.

[@superinfinityfilms]

It's just a game bud they'll respawn.

[@tren380]

Your level sample is far too small. This video has so much wrong with it.

[@smellygellybiscuits3814]

Dexterity makes a huge difference for bards and missed notes.

[@roboparks]

Dexterity only raises skill lvl once its maxed well? It could add to more Critical hits . But I thinks is class specific so at max skill Roges only benefit from it in classic. Everything in Classic has a soft CAP

[@turinhorse]

this has been tested many times. And as a guy who mained a bard for 4 years in this era... and played every emu and TLP... it doesnt. maxing dex makes like 5% difference in a missed note. and who cares cuz it doesnt cost mana and you just restart the song immediately anyways. not until Luclin and the AAs do you start to seldomly miss notes.

[@tristinbulko6786]

I mean.. later on heroic stats matter alot - I just now heard you say we're not talking about them but yeah lol I cha does effect prices aswell

[@Merknilash]

heroic stats were basically the game developers realizing the original stats were useless so they came up with an entirely new stat system to lay on top of the original one

[@roboparks]

The context of the Vid was classic so 1st 50 Lvls

[@Crabby928]

Using 2 data points and assuming everything is linear is probably not the most accurate way to look at this...

[@classicmmoguy]

No it's not. But it's directional, and it's directionally correct in showing that stats are bad.

[@FirstNameLastName-okayyoutube]

Really love this video! A lot of things are taken for granted and a lot of things have been tested a lot. It could very well be that a TLP today is not the same as a few years ago

[@legbert123]

Yes this so much

[@adamb306]

Sooooo....about shield AC to stam conversion.....

[@kibblewibble1]

I still remember what an ssoy is

[@dollors1]

Pvp matches on red server have been won spamming bow

[@joshrobinson506]

I always won with flash of light spamming while my ranger friend bow spammed.

[@toamaiusdvignir9468]

Great video can you do a deep dive on AC :)

[@Jaybird-be1tt]

Use plate class not leather see how mobs hit then.

[@douglasc886]

you should tell me 24 years ago, lol

[@EQOAnostalgia]

0:15 Funny you say Master Class, as that's EQOA's AA system lol. Well to be more accurate, Class Mastery which leads into Master Class.

[@ehliaskarim1520]

This video was fuckin awesome. I’ve played EQ on and off since right before velious first launched (main was a DE SK) and would’ve LOVED to know this info. Since then having played on P99 and several TLPs I never knew the extent to which most of these stats sucked. I got the general feel of it from always gearing up my toons and finding relatively little change but this really puts it into perspective. If you have the ability and time I’d love to see one for casters although the formula is a bit simpler. Mostly my big question is whether CHA effects charm spell durations for enchanters (I suspect not or so little as to be a non factor). Great vid, made me subscribe. Hope to see more!

[@nfefx]

Max out strength at char creation, got it

[@paulmitchell4876]

there are too many things to consider. you will have to have many different mobs beat on you. their different accuracy rates often make some stats less meaningful. I'm not saying that you are going down the wrong road about stats as they have changed the game so much since the early EQ days. However, since there are so many variables, any testing needs to be able to cover all the considerations in order to make an accurate assessment. Also, any parse on a PC character will be completely off. There are tons of nerfs on PC vs PC damage. Any parse with PC vs PC is going to be wrong when it comes to NPCs.

[@paulmitchell4876]

Your best bet to get a solid set of data is to actually KILL tons of mobs in kunark. Luclin mobs have significantly buffed up combat stats compared to kunark mobs and luclin is when the stats game started to not matter. If I were looking to test what you are, I would settle for no less than 10 hours of solid killing with a wide variety of mobs. Being a data engineer, I would also clean the parse to include the same percentage of caster type mobs and melee type mobs in each comparison, or separate those into their own groups entirely. This way you get to see the effects on mobs with hardier combat attributes vs less. This can help expose the underlying mechanics to see where the impact of stats actually might come into play.

[@paulmitchell4876]

Another thing to consider is there are "shelves" inherent in the damage and avoidance formulas where the involved stats have low impact up until that shelf, once your stats push you past the plateau/shelf , that's when the benefit is apparent. Armor AC and avoidance AC both have these. Once you get your base value to a certain level, the benefit is extreme in comparison. The plateau is different for each mob depending on their inherent combat attribute assignments. Its possible that all luclin mobs' threshold for accuracy is higher than 255 agi (since they have tweaked the damage tables a few times at least since classic era) So you may in fact be correct. But to know for sure, you would have to have more scenarios covered by your data to say one way or the other.

[@TheJofurr]

Yeah, that's how we played OGEQ raiding through PoP. Even for DPS it was STA, HP and maybe resists > everything else. EQ was more about player skill and cooperation than gear. Pay-to-winners could never.

[@axel8406]

I dont play everquest but i love math and seeing how stat affect a game.

[@awesomeonion8717]

Now do charisma!

[@dalamar1035]

If I recall it also increased your AC stat which then lowered the dmg you taken. And on raids when high level mobs hit you 4 times a attack round every little miss and or less dmg per hit matters. For Dex and crits think its a correlation if recall between attack rating and dex as a modifier. Depending on what weapon and class you are affects your Attack rating differently. Being a Enchanter class we used to buff alot for these stats seeing huge differences. Dex helps alot for Rangers and ranged used weapons to hit the ATtack and AC ratings is what game calculates most of the dmg off of. Reason at higher level gear stats did not matter as much as raw ATtack and AC bonus more over gear with saving throw stats met more and your over all level mitigates incoming dmg.In my final years of gaming original EQ up till 13th expansion I was playing one of top level rogues on server and my stats and gear made me far better then a Warrior as a group tank my dps out put held agro and my hp ac mitigation stat and gear stats kept me up with a good cleric and support class for slow which I ended up farming a wilsapper for slow proc to just fill in when no slow.

[@packatk7431]

Not sure if it's been said or if you've done it but it sure would be nice to see a classic era parse on the affects of charisma to the length of charm. I swear it feels like the higher my charisma is the longer the charm lasts, and I've been told that's how charisma is suppose to work. Charm length also, at times, feels random and charisma not a dependable stat to increase to make my charm more effective. Great video breaking now melee stats.

[@ryanb4343]

hey thanks for your 11 videos. do you have upcoming videos on other MMOs? your knowledge of the classic and the first two expansions is something every new player should watch. it is a good foundation for learning the simplest form of the current state of the official game. I'm looking forward to your knowledge of other classic MMOs

[@TirpitzLuminare]

A little off topic here, but I love this nerd stuff I wanted to share a similar experience. Warning: Wall of text incoming. It's wild how old this game is and how often things like this still come up. People get so stuck in what they've heard over the years they refuse any hard evidence to the contrary. Again, this is a bit off topic but I came across this when testing Ranger Headshot with Bow of the Destroyer, and its DPS viability vs. other end-game bows. There are people who will die on the hill of stating that a lower attack delay will not increase Headshot rate - spoiler it 100% does, and it's not even really close. You can easily dispel this myth without even parsing the game. Simply equip the slowest bow in the game and BotD and see for yourself in about 1 minute… There was a reason why they didn't give the new Bow of the Destroyer from the Rain of Fear expansion a 17 Delay. It’s because it would have been absolutely broken, even in modern expansions of EQ. There is no “Headshot Proc-Rate Hard Cap” like many people will argue. In fact, the normal Bow of the Destroyer on a Ranger, with Headshot viable targets is more DPS than any bow in the game until Vae`Aender, Stitch's Bow, which comes from Ashengate: North raid in the Serpent’s Spine expansion, and it’s barely better. Fun fact; Vae`Aender, Stitch's Bow is more DPS than Transient Bow of Solar Winds, which comes from the next expansions final zone The Buried Sea! Bow of the Destroyer is not only competitive, but can potentially outperform bows up until Stormbolt, Recurve of the Heavens, which any of you fellow EQ geeks out there will know comes from Kerafyrm the Awakened, the final boss of Secrets of Faydwer - a level 80 bow. I came to this conclusion after extensive testing on the Test Server. I pitted BotD vs. other bows up until Secrets of Faydwer. The goal was to go all the way to the current expansion, which at the time was the Terror of Luclin. However, I was unable to acquire the final bow in The Underfoot expansion due to bugs preventing progression until I had to step away from EQ due to RL. I just never got back to it. While I knew beyond Secrets of Faydwer BotD wouldn’t be the best DPS, but I wanted to know if it was still comparable. Heroic Dex is such a massive damage multiplier to Headshot and its proc rate I was very curious how it was going to stack up against the raw damage from bows later in the games life-cycle. This wasn’t a simple test, I was going all out. I had a Ranger that did all the tests starting at level 70. Starting with Planes of Power / GoD. I had the idea to tests after I leveled up from 65… Needless to say BotD “destroyed” both the bows from PoP and GoD. Seriously, it’s not even close. Bows in question are Bow of the Tempest and Bow of Whispering Wind. So the criteria on the test was Level>Expansion. This means that each bow from each level range that was the “end-game” bow for each expansion in that level range was compared to BotD. For example, both Plaguebreeze and Soulseeker, Death's Sigh are from Omens of War and Depths of Darkhollow respectively, but they are both level 70 bows. Therefore they are in the same test bracket. All this data was parsed, broken down, and put into a spreadsheet. All extra stats for each bow are included, such as Archery %, Sharpshooter, ATK bonus, etc. As well Bane Damage and bow-specific damage procs. Everything is categorized. My ranger would be geared out in the best possible raid-tier gear and augments at each level break within that level ranges era. I never go out of era with my gear, such as using the gear from The Broken Mirror. Exception being Quiver/Arrows, more on that below. All buffs are self-buffs. Haste was from the Lizardscale Plated Girdle. Overhaste (8%) was from the Organic Ring of Darkness. Arrows and Quivers were the best in the game at the time, Ancient Arrows and the Prescient Fleeting Quiver. Again, at each level break my Ranger was optimally geared with best in slot items and augments. Overhaste is consistent in all tests due to how they made it an AA once clicked. AA’s are all AA’s that affect Headshot or any type of Damage. These are capped at each level break before testing starts. The tests would include; Bow of the Destroyer - Fastest bow in the game. Rough Darkwood Recurve Bow - Slowest bow in the game. This was to show Delay 100% is a factor. The data was overwhelming in support of delay being a major factor in HS procs. End-game bow as stated above. There would be five tests for each bow. Live-fire tests. Obviously the most RNG of the tests. I would go to an on-level location where Headshots were possible and kill 300 enemies. Gear and buffs were best gear, and self-buffs only. I would do this test for each bow with the exception of the Rough Darkwood Recurve bow as that would have been far too painful… After that test we moved onto the Test Dummy. Test Dummy ran for 6 hours for each test. And no, you do not need 12, 24, or 300 hours to get accurate consistent data. The results would have been the same in a 4 hour tests as the 6 hour tests. How do I know this? Because I started with a 4 hour tests. Then I figured people would make that argument, so I re-did the tests for 6 hours instead. So let’s just put that argument to bed. Each bow had 4 Test Dummy tests with different set-ups. It’s important to note that Heroic Dex becomes available at level 70, so this is a part of the test as well. The Four Tests for each bow were; Test #1: Self-Buffs / Full Haste / Full hDex Test #2: Self Buffs / No Haste / Full hDex Test #3: Self-Buffs / Full Haste / Low hDex Test #4: Self-Buffs / No Haste / Low hDex The level 70 tests did not include test #3 and #4. I felt that it would be an important tests to make moving forward, and I had already moved on to the level 75 test. So what were the results? Eye-opening actually. I was always under the impression that delay was a major factor, but I didn’t think BotD would hold up as well as it does. As I said before; it’s not until a level 75 raid-tier bow until BotD is outperformed. And even then it’s still very close. For example; Stormbolt, Recurve of the Heavens, a bow that drops (rarely) from Kerafyrm the Awakened - the final boss of Secrets of Faydwer - only outperforms BoTD by a marginal rate. We’re talking 5,603DPS vs. 4,313 DPS. BoTD still has nearly 60 more Headshot procs on 300 enemies than Stormbolt. People may argue that that is a difference of 1,290 DPS. However, you need to remember; this is a level 80 bow vs. a sub-level 60 bow. Maybe someday I may go and do the Dummy Parse between these two bows, who knows. As it stands now I have the most optimally geared out in-era Ranger you’ve ever seen. I have a Google spreadsheet of this test I’ve never shared outside my friends who helped out on it. It’s not finished, but tests 70-75 are done, and the live-fire level 80 test is done. I’m convinced from this test that due to the insane power scaling of Heroic Dex that BotD would still be competitive with current end-game bows based of Headshot procs alone. Obviously not the best, but still good. Also you can put the aug from Breakdown in Communication in it, which is awesome. If you made it this far, thanks. If anyone has questions I will try to answer them as best I can. This test was done 2+ years ago, and I am an old geezer with a fading memory.

[@ksmith4712]

Buffs are not as significant as gear stats. Try your tests using max gear stats there might be a difference.... in the classic era high end gear has alot of Agility.

[@richardwallis9374]

Where’s my WIS calcs? IMO wis gives pretty decent mana pool but until Velious it’s not a big deal. Most bosses die too fast for it to be a factor. And even in velious mana regen is 20x better.

[@sundayfun9446]

Where's this music from?? Arx Mendes??

[@classicmmoguy]

Yeah, never been to the zone, but this track slaps

[@Gummytrains]

Back in velious I had a raid bard and I stacked stam and HP and Dex I built my PvP toon like this on ToV to joust and proc my two SoDs and I got to say I felt a difference when I sang my dex song and when I did not

[@godsfavoriteant9293]

You lose nothing by adding stats to your character so even minor gains are a positive effect.

[@daethe]

You lose nothing, but you also gain literally nothing if they aren't doing anything.

[@godsfavoriteant9293]

@@daethe they are doing something though. It might not be much, but it isn't nothing. We could make an exception for int/wis if you're not a caster, priest, or hybrid that uses one of those stats. But that was not the thesis of the video.

[@civrev]

Awesome vid! I enjoyed the deep dive.

[@toastyroach1199]

Can you please make a video about the other stats like intel and wis so we can see how useful they are please

[@EXP_Jenova]

Trying both Live and P99 as a new player, I was kind of appalled at how much higher stats were on leveling gear in Live. It makes much more sense after watching this video.

[@MrKveite1]

So, just play on live where stats actually have an effect:)

[@fredsmith9945]

Very interesting video! Going to keep getting them dex buffs on my warrior it looks like haha

[@roboparks]

AC - Is more important than HPS . That's all you need to know STR -Weight and DMG ? I guess DMG ? AGI - Only really affects when you are overweight and encumbered pretty much Useless. STA- HPs of course . STA most Important for Casters who eat themselves. Necros and Shams, DEX - Melee skills gained in Combat , After Max it only applies to Rouges for Crid hits (on Back Stabbing) That's it . and Rangers Range (actually I think its any Archery. But Rangers do get Special AAs for this) WIS- Mana Pool size on Priest classes. And Some Hybrids . Rangers , Pallys, BST (Trade skill lvl only. Chance of combine is base on your trade skill lvl vs the item lvl) INT- Mana pool for INT Casters . Necro, Chanter , WiZ. Some Hybrids SKs (Trade skill lvl only. Chance of combine is base on your trade skill lvl vs the item lvl) CHA - Chanters only for Chram (well I guess Droods and Shams for early Animal Charm pet ?? ) . Faction doesn't really matter anymore for NPC merchants. Being Good Looking doesn't matter anymore LOL Magic Resist - MMM don't get started LOL

[@TheBMWBUM]

shm/dru/nec charm do not get the extra charisma check. Enchanters basically get a 3rd check just for them to save charm breaks via charisma. Otherwise its a dice roll on duration and a chance to break every server tic along the way

[@reuter66]

any difference if you DONT have ur back towards mob?

[@legbert123]

You need to watch your video " Why you suck at Everquest"

[@ironmalice93]

the game was never polished, and was always broken. Sony used it and abused the player base terribly. Love it but with it would get a major graphic upgrade and repair from ground up.

[@superinfinityfilms]

Dude your smoking . Eq classic thru kunark was perfect and pvp was great. Nothing broken. Just whiny babies

[@ctheg2299]

The dex proc test is too basic. Proc chance is limited by spell and item. I think it it would be more accurate to find items with high proc chance as dex would have a greater effect. For example, if SSOY’s average proc is 1/min, then the dex actually had a 100% increase. Thats huge. I think PWC in Kunark had a very high proc coefficient. Testing that would give a more true estimation of dex scaling effects.

[@classicmmoguy]

Dex does not add accuracy to melee hits, or raise attack power. Reasonable point on proc rates, maybe I will dive deeper into items with high ppms. However, I still stand by the fact that the amount of dex required to raise the proc rate is a bad trade, and strength is a far better offensive stat.

[@kraze1982]

part of the proc rate issue might be tied to the proc change that happened and limits on procs per timeframe due to shaker paging

[@JeremiahCommons]

I am pretty certain avoidance suffers from behind?

[@Nilvantha]

Best stats for Bard?

[@SuperADUSE]

kronos

[@jacobshandymantreeservicel2522]

Good info! I’m guessing stats don’t affect casters in anyway? How come you didn’t give any love to them in this video? 😢

[@roboparks]

Just your Wis, INT or CHA. . STR is important to carry all that VT Loot.

[@Reshtarc]

I was there back then ...... it is what we coined the term grind.

[@hellglaser3450]

Trilogy era...first up lets test out luclin content

[@MrRlsquared]

Explains why rogues are trash

[@Gummytrains]

I am a Nerd like you… good video I’ll follow

[@Waterlilystyles22]

So stats do work, test warrior with BoC,

[@pdj672]

but… but.. muh rogue…. /sigh…

[@classicmmoguy]

Strength is the way brother

[@Erekai]

I have wished for decades that DEX played a bigger role for Rogues. Something like, DEX scales up both your Backstab accuracy and damage. But no... STR STR STR.... the beefiest Rogues are the best Rogues... go pump some iron, stomp around the battlefield. Stealth? What's that? Gotta be a big musclehead. I know it's probably just a limitation of the way the game was made originally, but it's just so dumb to me.

[@classicmmoguy]

I agree that would be cool if dex improved backstab in some way.

[@stus2159]

Kind of a click bait title. Everyone already knows that in classic era you want to stack resists/AC/HP. You showed the stats do have their benefits, they just aren't as impactful as you may have thought. Dex does increase proc rate as you showed, and every melee class should have at least 1 proc on each weapon. (melee vendor augs). The stats become much more impactful later in the game though.

[@piattnd]

Your conclusion on procs per minute is a bit flawed. Not all weapons have the same proc rate, so the test should expand to higher proc rate weapons and see if the increase is flat PPM OR if it's a % of PPM. 1 PPM to 2 PPM is a 100% increase in PPM. But if you used a weapon that usually procs twice per minute, would this test increase the PPM to 4 or 3?

[@TheBMWBUM]

wrong. And his test is too, soft cpa for dex is 2 proc per minute around 180dex or so? 255 gets you like 2.2ppm. As with most stats diminishing returns kick in WAAAAAY below cap.

[@donfolstar]

You're doing the math backwards on AGI misses. From the monk's perspective, avoidance reduced incoming damage by ~8.5%, plus whatever mitigation from AC. Still fairly lackluster for such a huge amount of AGI, but reasonably useful for meatshields (who may or may not scale similar to monks- who knows).

[@classicmmoguy]

Not entirely sure what you mean here. You can't know how much the avoidance reduced incoming damage unless you know the average size of the hits that are being avoided (I could calculate this, but you don't have this data, so not sure what you mean).

[@axel8406]

As the hit chance lowers, it increases in effectiveness in damage mitigation. A white room example it 100 hits that do 10 damage apiece. At 35 percent, you would take 350 damage. At 32, you would take 320 damage. Approximately a 9 percent decrease. Another 3 percent reduction would lower the damage to 290. Approximately an 18 percent decrease. Stacking hit reduction gets better the more you have. So AGI might not be a bad stat to invest in if you are tanking or have the buff or free equipment with it included. Edit: changed Dex to AGI

[@classicmmoguy]

1) Stacking anything gets better the more you have 2) We're talking about agi, not dex, just to clarify for readers 3) You still have to stack absurd levels of agility to reach this number. Equipping an item here or there with +3 agi, etc, will do effectively nothing for your character.

[@hom-sha-bom]

@@classicmmoguy You can know how much damage was reduced. You do not need to know the average size of the hits being avoided. It doesn't matter if they hit for 100 or hit 1000, either way the mob landing 8.5% fewer hits directly translates to 8.5% reduction in damage taken. 100 average damage per hit, 35 hits landed out of 100 = 3500 damage taken. 100 average damage per hit, 32 hits landed out of 100 = 3200 damage per taken. 300 damage reduced is ~8.6% less damage taken. 648 average damage per hit, 35 hits landed out of 100 = 22680 damage taken. 648 average damage per hit, 32 hits landed out of 100 = 20736 damage taken. 1944 damage reduced is ~8.6% less damage taken.

[@classicmmoguy]

You are right thank you for the clarification!

[@WhyYouAskingMe]

So, for an Enchanter... all points into Stamina. Got it.

[@richardwallis9374]

I’ve been doing that for a long time. Wis is easy to cap once it matters anyway.

[@WhyYouAskingMe]

@@richardwallis9374 Enchanters are intelligence?

[@ChaosSlayerZX]

2 things i wait to note on: 1) when it comes to hit chance you have to keep in mind that behind the screen game sort of combines avoidance and armor together, so consider 2 different situations - you tried to hit the mob but MISSED, and you hit the mob but dealt 0 damage due to its armor - the game will show it back to you as you MISSED, rather than - you hit for 0. And this is precisely WHY you see so much more gain from STR than DEX - STR penetrates enemy armor, turning those MISSes into at least some dmg. While high DEX let you score a hit more often, you still not penetrating armor, and therefore hitting for 0, which reported as a MISS. 2) if you taking this tests on a TLP server you have know that they NOT running actual classical/trilogy game code - its been lost DECADES AGO. It uses NEW CODE , which was slightly adjusted for classical era, because over time internal coding for combat and hp/mana formulas changed SIGNIFICANTLY specially from Classic to Kunark, Kunark to Velious and so on.

[@classicmmoguy]

Dex does not increase the chance to hit or add attack rating for melee damage.

[@ChaosSlayerZX]

@@classicmmoguy oops, i messed up, i was thinking about something else as I was typing. All i wanted to point out, that it looks like STR improves your hit chance, while its actually improves armor penetration, because games shows 0 dmg hits as misses.

[@WhyYouAskingMe]

What was the level of the character your warrior was hitting? Also, does PVP versus PVE change things?

[@Merknilash]

your #1 point is entirely myth and not based in reality whatsoever It's like I went back in time to the summer of 99 and all of the bullshit rumors back then lol

[@turinhorse]

this is one of the reasons why EQ is a mostly crap game. especially TLPs

[@kevinblaha6287]

That 1 proc per minute is so important for a raid warrior.

[@dustindouglas9912]

The crit chance increase is better than it looks as well. Yes, crit chance only went from 1.45% to 3.24%, but that is more than doubling your base chance.

[@Aorthaf]

It also affects proc augments and he isn't taking into account off hand for warrior. Off hand procs at half the rate of your primary.

[@turinhorse]

hope youre being sarcastic heh.

[@donteatpaint]

You're a legend for doing this testing. There's so much incorrect information shared by players that the echo chamber is deafening. Thanks for the analysis and not letting your "feels" get in the way.

[@randomposterguy7097]

anyone with 2 brain cells could do the testing, why play the game for 25 years and just assume everything like an idiot

[@rpscorp9457]

Everquest is useless.

[@Unchainedfury]

Ahh...TLP servers is your answer on how you came to this conclusion. Live stats (TLPs) are nowhere near what Live was in the Classic +2 expansions. There was a change in luclin, and perhaps in further expansions later on down the road. Cool testing though 😊

[@TOHL1995]

At lower levels, it matters. The small buffs are the difference between being annhilated by same level mobs and winning somewhat comfortably. Best MMO still.

[@jmswillow5969]

Based off of how many attack attempts? How many times teated? Didn't list that. What's up next bards are a wasted slot for groups on raids?

[@everwake2689]

Bro, my character needs those big gains. It doesn't matter if the stats don't do anything, he's got to show off those 255s!

[@PrivateUsername]

Coming from someone who used to raid in classic back in the late 90s and early 00s.....no.

[@Merknilash]

i'm sure your 25 year old memories totally outweigh actual math debunking you as a 1999 shaman player i can confirm for you that stats were meaningless.

[@Forevergames-vn6gd]

I am not sure but on my melee using the aug from the vendor dex does make a big difference in those procs. I notice 3 or more procs, Dex is also for wizards in the critical department. Now its the way you pose things. In the grouping fights sure but longer fights these things pay dividends. When you go from 1% to a 2.4% this is a 140% increase and minute stacked over minute increase in over all dps. Defensive skills once again is now a calculatable over time. 3% was how many dodges that negated how much damage? It's like the natural regen argument, you may think 2hp a tick is nothing but over the life of the toon and its fights its a mountain. Eq has always been a game of inches and to those capable it's as fast paced action as any modern title. Most people just arent that good at eq to be on that pace. Yes if you are a casual prioritize the gear with stats that give the most benefit is the moment but as you grow you the inches you leave on the table are important.

[@highdesertbiker]

this game looks terrible