Does Marvel Crisis Protocol Have A Kaiju Problem?

[@danny222-]

I’d like to see only affiliated characters get the benefit of the leadership and some sort of re work with thanos and the gems to be like apocalypse and his horsemen

[@MrMetallicO]

Great vid Bro. I'm a super casual 0% competitive player and I recently added Abomb to my roster to fight Kaiju's because of the absolute horrible game play experience I had at a recent tournament playing against Thor Hero and his multiple ways to kill you 🤣. From your suggestions I like the terrain throws being equal to the terrain piece size instead of adding the extra 1. What I always wonder is how such over tuned characters get through "play testing" but obviously once released to the community they'll always find the ways to push a characters limits to the max. Really enjoyed this vid and would like to see more.

[@Tyke-Myson]

I'd much rather the lower threat fellas get brought up a tad than high threat get brought down, personally. I love seeing a big dumb lynchpins like Malekith or Cosmic Ghost Rider go nuts and do their thing, but I also love watching my Wong and Clea overcome those challenges. I think the ideal situation is a world where the whole gammut of styles are playable, and just using history from other games, dropping the cielings here and there doesn't normally accomplish that.

[@HenryJackson-sz2lr]

I'd like to see them restricted to affiliation only or maybe I agree with the restricted idea. The devil's advocate point would be, don't models like Shang-Chi, Zemo1, and Wong appear in most of the top lists as well? If the problem with the big characters is that they shape lists and appear everywhere it'd be disingenuous to pretend that this also does not happen with 2, 3, and 4 point threats as well.

[@tarquinsweetbiscuits2472]

@HenryJackson-sz2lr Being a popular/strong character and appearing in a lot of lists isn't the problem, it's when there's very little counterplay to something, or if that counterplay is so specific that it warps rosters in planning to face it. Shang-Chi is a strong character, but there's a wide range of characters out there that have long range attacks to get around his best defence, and he has relatively low health to balance his strength. TLDR; Something being popular isn't bad, it's when something has very little counterplay besides hope and dreams.

[@raygott5712]

Recently came back to this game, but I've played from the beginning. I bought the Dracula Box, my buddy brought his Thor2/Asgardians. When it was over, it felt like I was explaining to a police officer where the bad man touched me. It really made me appreciate how difficult it is to remove models in Shatterpoint, and how important objective play is. In MCP some killers are so effective at killing it takes away from objectives.

[@kgordon7209]

I wish Squirrel Girl would have been a low threat Kaiju killer. Somehow make her a threat 2 or 3 character that sucked against 2-5 threat characters but reliably crippled high threat characters. She would have been automatically included in most list of 10 characters and the Kaiju player would have thought twice about bringing a Kaiju onto the table.

[@ZamboniZone]

Honestly I'm still trying to figure out how to win with Asgard. 6 threat thor is impressive especially when paired with Loki but I feel like I'm missing something. So if you don't know what you are doing it reigns them in nicely

[@tarquinsweetbiscuits2472]

A possible solution is something that they've already experimented with - Make a character non-splashable. They tried this with Dormammu, and while you can absolutely say that Dormammu is nowhere near the power levels of these beasties despite being a more expensive character, the theory is sound. There's plenty of fluff reasons you could implement to account for it; Thanos does not work for other people, he's his own king. Thor could be taken only with Asgard and Avengers as his Asgardian duties keep him too busy. That kind of thing. And then if they're STILL too powerful and meta-shifting, maybe then you look at bringing them down a touch.

[@WadeWeigle]

This is pretty sound. I like it.

[@raygott5712]

100% agree, but it's not just Dormammu. Look at Nebula, for her points she's a beast, but comes with a weakness (no objective play). I want there to be Silver Surfer models in MCP, but is there a compromise where they face off against a Punisher and it's still a challenge? I fully support awesome characters like Thor2, but please give them a weakness so I can have fun with my Bullseye and Green Goblin.

[@williamthierry-ip1fq]

i use shang chi , doctor strange OG , iron fist so it should be less a problem for me i just stagger / activate them and then it s a huge problem for the opponent having so much threats "wasted"

[@stevenwelch5112]

"Intentionally injure the other player on the team". Thats a statement for sure. Seems like the conversion has derailed to wishcasting and making the game unrecognizable. I will happily look for positive solutions to indulgent problems.

[@wookiemart]

The solution already exists, the timeline affiliation lists. Ignore the stupid rule about needing 3 different rosters and you have a tool that let's you enjoy the more narrative side of the game without having to deal with the competitive assininery.

[@AegisbrandStudios]

Personally, I think Timelines is too restrictive (also, I cannot play Fury Jr in it, and that bugs me)

[@wookiemart]

​@AegisbrandStudios what i am suggesting is to have multiple timelines to satisfy multiple play environments.

[@AegisbrandStudios]

@wookiemart interesting thought, though that would be a lot of overhead

[@wookiemart]

If they did it right, a lot of unused models would sell off the shelves

[@DJDadJoke]

The game design around Apocalypse gives me a lot of hope for the future of MCP Kaiju. I think he's astoundingly fun, thematic, and powerful while remaining balanced. The thing that makes Apocalypse so great to me is that he's only competitively good in his own faction. There was no need to ban, restrict, or nerf him because the thing that makes him strong is his horsemen leadership. I'd like to see something similar done with characters like Thanos. Thanos SHOULD be powerful, but he shouldn't be playing second fiddle to Red Skull 3. I'd like to see the "take up to two gems, one ability is free each turn" half his "Being Of Immeasurable Power" limited to when he's in a Black Order affiliated list. Black Order is by no means bad, but they don't have as many crazy options as Cabal does. It makes me sad that Thanos sees tons of play everywhere but his own affiliation. This sort of limitation would keep Thanos great in his own faction, while still letting casual players run him unimpeded in other lists. Thor 2 is a bit more of a problem to reign in because his entire faction is already bonkers. He just needs a nerf straight-up.

[@WadeWeigle]

You’re absolutely right about Thanos. Another commenter stated that having certain characters become unsplashable. Like Thanos cannot be taken out of Black order, just like Dormommu cannot be taken out of Dark Demonsion. That would calm things down in a big hurry with the tournament crowd.

[@AegisbrandStudios]

Restricting splashes is a topic I like (and a topic for another video). I have been a fan of encouraging in affiliation picks over splashes

[@ReallyBigBadAndy76]

I guess I will also add that everyone fussed and cried about the stealing mechanics and they nerfed Black Cat. Well, when you nerf the alternative strategies to “all murder, all the time” then this is what you get.

[@wookiemart]

She wasn't nerfed she actually got a glowup. Bad Luck was a significant improvement to her survivability and making Cat Burglar an action simply turned off abusive play on extracts like hammers.. (Extracts should all be restricted to one per character BTW)

[@AegisbrandStudios]

Facts, right here. Cat is pretty damn good right now

[@Bkorgan1]

I think they're fine, and the best answer is to bring up some of the older characters. Not just the 6s, but quite a few of the older characters from all threats

[@wookiemart]

almost all 3's and quite a few 4's are on that list but I doubt AMG has the desire or the bandwidth to do that

[@mvprindle]

Clearly you haven't been paying attention to competitive MCP if you think Thor and Thanos are fine.

[@claycountryxwing10]

For me the biggest model that causes a loss turn 1 is Thanos. He is so strong at controlling a table that anyone who isn't a top level player will really struggle to beat him. Him in cabal with skull 3 is just bonkers when played well. Malekith always felt like he was super dice dependant. Now he feels weak for a 7 threat with the changes. Having discussed the big bad cat rider with my locals, we reckon he should have been a 6 threat but remove the cloak of shadows super power. No skullls as crits and rerolls are allowed against him. I think the issues with Thor are his higher health pool and size 3 with a medium base. Even at 7 threat he would be good but less likely to be splashed outside of Asgard. The stun condition can really hurt most of the bigger 6+ threat models and there are plenty of ways to put it on them. I do believe that people are very quick to say something is broken without looking into the whole game as a whole and see what is available. MCP has one of the best and worst dice systems of any game. It can really swing and change, this doesn't help with the big bad models floating around throwing more and more dice pools with more access to rerolls. Please amg remove rerolls! Let the dice be what they are., instead use things to alter a result rather than be able to reroll 10+ dice. Easy fix to thanos is that he can only use the gems for free inside black order. Outside of his affilitation he must pay to use them like everyone else.

[@anishantony1723]

personally they do have their time in the sun but things do readjust either by new releases or balance changes and I don't think that's that bad. I think most of them are fine they just tend to launch too high on the power curve

[@mvprindle]

Most of these commenters dont seem aware of Thor 2 and Thanos' extremely high win rates compared to everything else. Regardless of the solution, these two models have to be addressed or the game will die. Im not that worried though. AMG has historically adressed problems and theyre even getting faster at doing so. I doubt it will be too long before some more balance changes.

[@jesserooney2595]

It’s not a kaiju/ big model issue, it’s a splash issue. Shang Chi is basically just as popular and just as overpowered as Thor. Problem is, splashing is built into the game. Those players that want to play a competitive game are going to naturally gear towards including the most powerful splashes they can, which makes everyone’s rooster look similar. The solution is more factions like Servants of Apocalypse that heavily incentivize running all-faction roosters.

[@AegisbrandStudios]

Splashing brings an interesting layer to the discussion, for sure. I think it is actually one of MCP's greatest strengths, but it also makes it a nightmare to balance for, as a result

[@jesserooney2595]

@ this is why more factions like SoA is a solution: it provides incentives to stay in faction rather than punishing for splashing or otherwise limiting splashing. It feels like a lot of competitive lists have faction cores that are essentially shells for powerful splashes. That does not feel like a particularly interesting puzzle for the list builder, at least not five years into the game. SoA asks the list builder novel questions. Hopefully future releases do the same.

[@Dazza0187]

Part of Marvel Comics is very powerful characters and if you truly want to represent them in the game they're going to be powerful. There are a lot more powerful characters yet that could be introduced into the game so Kaijus aren't going away. I don't see them a problem as long as each affiliation either has a kaiju or a good way to deal with them. In a casual setting it's very easy to agree to just not play Kaijus. With regards to throws which is a separate discussion I think making Brace a 6th ttc would help a lot.

[@AegisbrandStudios]

I have never been a fan of the argument that to counter a kaiju, bring one of your own. That warps roster building in a way that can turn people off. Some people do not want to use the Kaiju's, or do not have fun playing against them. A better solution would be to make them so they are a manageable aspect of the game.

[@genesisgackt]

@@AegisbrandStudios well it depends. Most of these people, aren't really good players so AMG shouldn't modify their game around those, ruining it for all others. If those aren't well versed in the game they should home rule out the kaijus but they can't balance the game around those. Because this is a game where character choice matters when roster building and squad building. If a player wanna always play, for example, Venom even when he shouldn't use him because of the crisis combination or because the opposing team is full of energy attacks is their fault for bringing Venom not the other way around. that is what is a warped roster building, not playing answers. And almost every player who says that he hasn't fun because the opponent has brought a kaiju is probably because the player who find it not funny is because he isn't very good at playing the game most of the time. People kept crying about Malekith and now he is overnerfed that is unplayable against a decent player. Nobody brings him in a tourney, not even novices. Now, Thor 2 should use a couple of touches but the kaiju problem is one for the people who have to git good

[@AegisbrandStudios]

So, I am a fairly strong player. I have perform strongly in most events I go to, and have won some smaller events. All the while running shield. The games that I have the least amount of fun playing are, quite often, the ones where I am staring down the barrel of a kaiju. They are not fun to play against. Play with, sure, but against, not as much. Reducing the discussion to a matter of player skill, I think, does a disservice to the game and the community.

[@Dazza0187]

@ Well I did say you either bring your own or a good way to deal with them. For instance stunning Thor, Staggering or displacing kaijus. If the answer is to just nerf kaijus or stop putting them in the game, the future might be quite boring particularly when there are cool Marvel characters like Silver Surfer, Hyperion, Sentry, Hercules, Chernobog and maybe Odin and Zeus. Also if you don't want to face a Kaiju casually I often agree with my opponents to just not bring one.

[@kingbobb007]

Issues with a casual game that plays competitively. I don’t think doubling the threat values fixes the problem, it just spreads the margin out more. No matter what kind of scale you use, the issue is that the game comes from a medium where a literal god shares the page with a spy with a gun and some gadgets, and has to try and balance that. But while comics have (in the words of Stan Lee) a writer to determine how the story goes, And who wins, the game doesn’t have this.

[@SorcerySpeedConcede]

You know, what if priority rules were changed? Some of the strength of a kaiju is in tall lists you can almost guarantee that you get to activate them first before your opponent can interact. A change to collisions may also help, but i dont know if that's going to be enough. Having played my first game against Thor2, he definitely feels overtuned. He consistently took 2 toons out every time he activated and my attempts to displace him felt in vain bc of the pounce.

[@wookiemart]

So here is the thing, quite a few of the team at AMG was over at Privateer Press when Warmachine/Hordes killed itself with a situation that is eerily similar to what MCP seems to be stuck in at the moment. The recent 4,5 and 6 threats have rendered most of the 3 threats utterly useless. Meanwhile most of the 2 threats have insane value. AMG needs to overhaul the whole threat calculation algorithm.

[@AegisbrandStudios]

I have had very similar thoughts, to be honest, but I was not deep enough in Warmachine to make that call

[@vascooliveira4740]

This. I've been saying this for ages. The game needs more granularity in points. The main issue isn't even on kaijus but the lesser tiers. 3 threat characters that out perform 5 threats (looking at you zemo1)... 4 threat characters that are all over the place (Shang and brb) as well as Namor on the 5 slot. Make the point system more granular to account for these differences.

[@Rubo2333]

I agree, they need to double the threat of all missions and characters and then adjust from there. Thor 2 feels super over tuned as a 6 threat but would feel better as a 6.5 threat so in this new system he'd be 13.

[@vascooliveira4740]

@@wookiemart yeah... Compare 6 threat Thor to magneto. Or Shang vs zemo2... Hell.. Zemo 1 vs zemo 2... Some models require a really long good look at. Others not so much

[@MadMax-el2el]

Yes, there is a problem. We had a massive hulk and ms Thanos issue that cost us nearly half the players at prior to the house rule. Most of them came back after the house rule. Our solution, is no 6+ threat out of affiliation characters. so midnight sons can still run ihulk and Thanos is not showing up in Guardians. Going one step farther open affiliations like hellfire club or vampire thralls cannot take 6+ threat characters It was not received with universal acceptance by the competitive crowd, so at tournaments people are free to run whatever they like. We just warn our more casual players that the house rule will not be in effect. There has also been talk of affiliation locking 2 threats and limiting 2 threats to one per list in thralls/hellfire

[@MadMax-el2el]

As for real solutions. I think we need a 2.0 mcp. Double the scenario values, default Double the character threat values, the adjust as required. Fix throw. I would also like to see the movement abilities matter more... like I want flight and web crawler to matter more. I would like to see a unaffiliated status removal tactics card get added, make it restricted. I want to see most tactics cards become affiliated only. I want to see a threat cap for benefits from hellfire club and vampire thralls. I don't like the lazy, oh just take anything approach. I want to see all these early characters get an update. Like dormamu is not an 8 threat his is barely a 6 threat in the current mcp. The whole of Sentinels is a bad joke and has been since they ararrived. The current 2 threats need a rethink. Nah, just nerf them... Bob doesn't belong in the same threat bracket as any other two threat... nebula, bullseye, rocket, toad all roll him for his lunch money twice day and three times on Sunday. Bob gets one chance most games to make an impact. Even Wong is doing something every round.

[@wookiemart]

That really sucks, good job saving the community before it was too late, I witnessed a store lose it's entire community as Ihulk and Thanos hit the scene. I'm currently trying to bring the community of another store back to life with limited success.

[@MadMax-el2el]

​​@@wookiemarthave you tried running games day style events, but run ultimate encounters. It is how we drummed up interest in the wake of the exodus. When we did the house rules, the other one we did for a few of the events was pure affiliation lists, if you needed a splash to fill the roster because of a lack of affiliated characters we let it slide but limited people to a single splash per game, in addition to the 6+ threat affiliation limitation. During the community rebuild we really did focus alot on narrative, coop and ultimate encounters. There was a hilarious 40 point "2 headed giant" with four scenarios live. The beam attacks were a problem. I ended up playing a ridiculous amount of black order, without Thanos unless it was the ultimate encounter. During that time. The biggest thing we needed to do was convince the competitive gamers to play nice if they want to have opponents. Then convince our more casual players the problem children would be put on a leash. It took a lot of time to rebuild that trust. Then we had the shatterpoint phenomenon for few months before they all came back to mcp. Now a lot of the mcp players have a few shatterpoint boxes. I have been almost exclusively running monsters unleashed box with midnight sons filler since i got my hands on them. I will be adding elsa/man thing this weekend i hope. i do have ihulk in my roster, but i don't typically use him, unless someone requests him. He just looks great on the tray. I went with a Grey hulk base paint scheme, but I also spent the time to sculpt and etch stitches onto him, adding slight discoloration between skin zones with different saturation levels of the green into the gray base tone. His shorts are an outlandish neon orange. But I am just leaning into the monster theme with big frank and little frank. I also don't run ghost rider in my list I bring werewolf. I still offer our casual gamers the choice of, you can veto ihulk or dracula. It has started to backfire post Christmas, as a few of them have clued into the fact i don't run ihulk... lol..

[@stevenwelch5112]

With Respect- The only thing that make sense is very modest side changes to characters that are consistently preforming at an efficient level, and I'm all for a glow up of a few others. Let everyone have some strong characters. Banning a character that l paid for to use in a game is the death of that game. Leland l disagree with the idea of 6+ threat characters being too good. There is play into them. When Thor or Hulk beat me, l looked into ways to play against and into them. I didn't yell "Ban this character!😂" Conditions, model placement, the missions, the ttc all matter in this. Restrictions just make people feel bad about models or playstyles that interest them. Throws are fine. They cost considerable power and are dice dependent. You could remove brace from restricted tho. 5 cards gives strategic options. Adding brace just to have isn't a good solution and you can find ways to abuse the list. Bans and Restrictions are never a good idea. It says your imagination isn't as important as my feelings. I'm not saying "Get good", I'm saying a player who plays frequently and a player who plays a handful of games a year with 1 or 2 Hulk/Thor negative experiences, should not be the same in determining how these characters exist the mcp. MCP is in a good place.

[@AegisbrandStudios]

It is certainly a contentious discussion. Honestly, these are just suggestions that have been bandied about, and discussed. Whether any are the solution is unclear, for sure. I do agree that 6+ threats, themselves, are not the issue, but most of the issues we are currently facing are 6+ threat characters. As for bans and restrictions, I understand that argument. It is never fun to be told you cannot run a character you enjoy. It is why I would never go further than restrict. Can still be taken, but force some decision points. IF that is the direction taken, anyway. In the end, this was just meant to be a discussion piece, again, which it appears it is kind of doing, at least.

[@wookiemart]

the problem is they are banning some cards when they should be addressing the problem characters instead. Banning SMASH because hulks were too strong with it isn't SMASH's fault it's Hulks. I used smash to really fun effect with Crimson Dynamo but because of stupid hulks I can't use an otherwise perfectly reasonable card. If they can't get their big characters under control then restricting them is the only other option.

[@AegisbrandStudios]

Justice for Smash!

[@stevenwelch5112]

What I read on here is that for some people, they equate fun with winning only. That can be both fine and bad. I play luckily a lot of mcp. I win a little more than l lose. I still have fun either way. Restrictions on characters is a absolutely terrible idea. Sorry it is. There's no counter balance to it. In sports a team doesn't say you can't have 2 good wide receivers cuz we don't like it as they're too hard to cover. I've got a lot of people into this game and l speak on the joy of playing with all sorts of characters. There's a lot of claims being made about a model being bad or good or too good. There's no evidence of this. I do not want to ever see a character being banned or Restrictions on what you can take in a list. Tall lists have weakness. Wide ones do to. That's how the game works. You start tinkering with things like extra cards or priority Restrictions, you get a game that doesn't feel like it's worth investing in. That's other games with punishment for using things you paid for with actual dollars. If your group likes a house rule like that, good on you. Not for everyone else tho. I feel a lot of those old cards like smash will return but given to specific characters. Smash is a smaller version now on Warlock and Electro. There's new characters on the way. Maybe Elsa hurts Thor2. Maybe we shouldn't be upset that 3 and some 4 characters get wrecked by 6+. They should. And those 3 and 4s should do other things to help you in the game. Maybe there's lots and lots of ways and levels of play in this fantastically fun game. I'm looking for positive things in my game play. Thor2 is fine. I own every model released and play a very wide spectrum. Absolutely no to Restrictions on characters. Ask for missions that push and challenge those big boys instead. I like the characters that got a glow up. Daredevil deliverance is really powerful in the right circumstances. Should he be restricted? How about any character you really like and do overall very well with? Slippery slope to no game existing at all in the end because of feelings, not evidence. I understand that. I can be salty for like 15 seconds after Thanos does some rough stuff to my team, but it's a game l enjoy nonetheless. And sometimes l get to punch Thanos face in too.😂 Let people be. No to punishing them because a game designer might have gone a wee bit overboard. They love the characters too.

[@wookiemart]

@@stevenwelch5112 some of us don't own every single model in the game, so when the new hotness shows up and renders what we own obsolete it IS a problem. and in sports when a team doesn't like the opponent having two talented players on the other side, they go out and injure that player, we don't have the luxury of taking out a problematic character other than lobbying for some sort of restriction.

[@Khurzan72]

I don't know what Kaiju is, but if it means this game is horribly unbalanced then the answer is yes. I just finished a league where I thoroughly did not enjoy it. I brought what seemed cool to play, and everyone else brought ridiculous builds that I could not even deal with. The game has hit my shelf for the foreseeable future.

[@AegisbrandStudios]

I understand your experience, but I would push back on the game being unbalanced. In the many decades I have been playing games, MCP is actually incredibly well balanced in most aspects. The problem, though, lies in the fact there are some skill ceilings in place. Either of you are unprepared, or inexperienced, in how to deal with some aspects. The competitive is quite competitive, but the casual is also quite fun. I certainly hope you give the game another shot, at some point

[@wookiemart]

I totally understand your frustration, this game presents itself as a casual thematic game but they have managed to sneak in some competitive components that really ruin the fun of the game because if you are not using those mechanics you will be left far behind.

[@lewiskillick6837]

I don't get to play the game, but I'm an avid collector. Just curious, is a 6 threat as useful as 3 2 threats? or 2 3 threats?

[@coilledragon279]

That is a question that seems to be constantly debated. 😅

[@AegisbrandStudios]

I personally think that is not the best way to approach valuation of characters, as there is a lot of variation in what they are able to do. People like to make that argument, but I think it is a bit too surface level, and needs more digging

[@wookiemart]

@@AegisbrandStudios I agree, that notion is way too context sensitive as some 6 threats have crazy good action compression and some 3 threats feel slow as mud. A lot of three threats have insane restrictions to their toolset like Human torch only being able to force a drop on assets instead of all extracts. How do you compare that to a 6 threat that just wants to pound his opponents into the ground and still be able to freely interact with any objective. I've always felts like the hulk interacting with objectives should have been immensely restricted. What civilian in their right mind would agreeably go with hulk.

[@genesisgackt]

While some characters can sometimes be overpowered when released, like Malekith or CGR (but there are several others in lower threat values) the response is always to git good. There were tech in the game to go against Malekith or CGR or all the problematic characters just that nobody wanted to add them in their rosters. While the over oppressive characters get always toned down. Thanos has been nerfed a lot of times and people keep complaining while, as of now, is absolutely fine. Malekith was overnerfed such as now is basically almost unplayable at a decent level of play. If you (and with you I'm not specifically referring to the author of the video but to anyone who is reading this) have set some home rules for yourself, like "I wanna play only affiliated", just do that but don't whine because others just wanna play the normal game or just try to improve yourself and your list building. And as Leland said there are some "kaijus" that feel underwhelming in the game like She-Hulk, Hulkbuster etc but the problem is that they almost never were competitive to begin with. When She Hulk came out she was a sort of replacement of Hulk, who was almost unplayable at the time, and except when she was used again in the" against malekith meta", she was almost always underperforming for her threat, same for Hulkbuster which always had too little HP to survive. That type of 6 threat isn't worth paying for in the game and almost never was.

[@AegisbrandStudios]

I do firmly believe that we, as players, do not see the full picture, that being the upcoming releases. Mal became a lot more manageable once Bill hit, for example. I am not convinced CGR ever really had a 'counter' model to him, as he was just way too efficient. It may also end up the case with Thor2. Either way, I enjoy having these discussions, and seeing where the community stands on the matters.

[@tonymatthews7118]

i would not mind if 6+ modals where affliction locked or at least disincentivise the splash, such as new Black bolt having a superpower that only effects Inhumans (obvs that is due to the inn human superpower and not the affil but the logic still stands)

[@coilledragon279]

A 4 threat Hulk would be horrible. He should be stronger than most of the game. How much stronger? I don't know. But i do feel that "kaiju's" are a natural part of the game, and anyone who doesn't want 5-6 threats in MCP either don't really understand the Threat Value mechanic, or don't care enough about the "Marvel" part of MCP. If you want to talk from a purely competitive standpoint.... well, that's what Ban lists (and/or Timelines) are for, isn't it!

[@BuggerallBlimey]

At work so haven't watched yet, but I love a good Kaiju. look forward to watching

[@Breezax]

Also a 6+ Character takes a huge part of the amount Treat level. Depends which crisis. Because I rather take 2 characters more than one 6+ character😂

[@shaunkrogulski9619]

I 100% agree that at the end of the day AMG should be looking to balance the game so we can continue to have a vibrant community. I do think Kaijus are a problem. The ability to play tall and manage priority the way they can makes it quite difficult to balance. I think G is likely to address it by nerfing specific models and not taking a broader view like should collision damage be changed unfortunately. I would like to see a restriction on the number of 6+ threat models you can take in your 10 at a minimum. I think other tweaks would also be justifiable.

[@DarkAutumnScribe]

Ah… I want an actual kaiju! Huge monsters, like Fin Fang Foom, or, hey why not Godzilla!

[@AegisbrandStudios]

Man, that would be kind of cool. Just something huge and unwieldly

[@Breezax]

I saw the title of the video😂 And that was also what I was thinking about. The real 'kaiju's' and other huge Enemies/monsters😎😁

[@wookiemart]

I mean let's face it Marvel has the rights to the biggest Kaiju ever, Galactus...

[@WadeWeigle]

The Phoenix is coming out this year so depending on how they sculpt her she could be massive.

[@eriksolecki7041]

I love the idea of restricting problem characters. That way, if it turns out that they aren't as bad as people initially thought, they can be un-restricted. Also, going forward, AMG could make Kaijus squishier. Thor would be less of a problem if he didn't have 4s across the board and 18 health, even with all the damage he can put out.

[@Natakupl]

I think maybe if every affiliation had access to a strong 6 threat model that would be one thing but there is a bunch of affiliations that struggle with that like a-force, x-men, brotherhood, midnight sons. I know you can technically just splash thor 2 or thanos into any of these and on a competitive level that's fine but on a local level- i wanna play x-men. Thor is not an x-man. I don't want to play him just cause he is good. There are affiliations build around smaller threat levels like spider-friends.

[@WadeWeigle]

I’ll just reiterate a good suggestion made in the comments. Make it so certain characters cannot be splashed. Thor stays in Asguard and Avengers, Thanos stays in Black Order etc etc etc. that would keep them from being abused wholesale. For casual play you and your opponent do as you wish. But I think that is a good fix for tournaments. Most of the characters you listed have all ready been nerfed so your argument really isn’t valid honestly. Thor 2, Immotal Hulk, and Thanos might have it coming. Let’s look to the future at Gladiator, he looks pretty nasty also. And geez, what would Phoenix offer!!!??? But if characters start getting banned and restricted then that will kill off the game whole sale. People will leave the game if there is no way to play their favorite characters.

[@malmolian]

I feel like this is somewhat a solution in progress. More affiliations are getting their own kaijus(king black bolt and I'm sure dark Phoenix will be to). It could be getting most affiliations there own before start putting restrictions out. Me personally, I like the idea of 1-2 splash characters per roster. Still open to comic book team ups but would force more affiliation synergy

[@AegisbrandStudios]

My argument is that MCP repeatedly has issues with kaiju-esque characters. The cycle remains the same: release-dominance-nerf-repeat. We have have been seeing this since Thanos hit. The argument was never all the 6+ are all powerful, all the time, but rather we keep trading one for another, and that is a worrisome sign. Also, I am, in no way calling for a ban on characters. And restricting is merely a suggestion that would cause people to choose between the model and a tactics card, which still means the character is playable

[@dwarrenmsp]

Some of the least fun games I've played against my friend is when he plays his Thanos with two gems. When I see him, I just focus on scenario and try to hold on. It sometimes works. Still, I know my fun factor is going to be reduced because that guy is on the table.

[@robertgregg2093]

I think there should be a mechanic for failure on using a superpower. The more impactful the power the harder it is to use. The power cost should remain but maybe add a die roll with the superpower specifying which faces will result in a success, or the opponent has a resist roll. You have to still pay the power and use the opportunity cost but sometimes you just fail.

[@ReallyBigBadAndy76]

I don’t think it’s a sound strategy to change core game mechanics to deal with a handful of broken characters. The solution to broken characters at the local level is to build a local community that doesn’t cater to Win at All Costs mentality. The characters are not ruining your locals. It’s the players who play them and the community organizers who insist every month needs to be a winner take all tournament.

[@AegisbrandStudios]

Not all locals have that win at all cost mentality, or monthly events. Sometimes, people want to play the characters they are excited for. For example, one of my locals loves Cosmic Ghost Rider, and loved that he was in the game. It was not until he started seeing the discussion around him that he realized that there were concerns with using him on the table.

[@danielclark3554]

Seems a bit of a strange time to release this video when the recent 5+ threats in the game are arguably more balanced than they've ever been.

[@AegisbrandStudios]

not so off, given the current dominance of Thor, as well as the history of 6+ threats dominating shifting the meta over the years.

[@danielclark3554]

@AegisbrandStudios Thor has been the outlier rather than the norm recently.

[@AegisbrandStudios]

And Malekith. And CGR. And Hulk (post buff). And Thanos... At some point, the outliers add up. AMG does not have the best history at making balanced 6+ threat characters, given how often they are the ones disrupting and warping the meta.

[@danielclark3554]

@@AegisbrandStudios That's why I used the term "recently", Apocalypse, Black Bolt and Gladiator are the most recent 6 threats that have been released/spoiled and none are broken.

[@AegisbrandStudios]

But it does not change the premise of the discussion though. She Hulk, magneto, and hulkbuster exist, and have for some time. It does not make the other characters less of an issue. This video is not discussion progression of design philosophy, it is talking about the issue these Kaiju characters can represent. Maybe the slate of new releases show a positive shift with their design, but it is still too early to tell if that is the trend or not

[@Breezax]

Well, there isn't a 'kaiju' problem because we don't have real huge characters in the came. What I found so sad, is the fact that they put 'The Wrecking Crew' on 1 base. While it was better to do them separate as 1 team😅🙈

[@wookiemart]

If they had done that I bet you only one of the characters would have been used and the others probably not even assembled off the sprue. That problem is prevalent in quite a few affiliations as it is so it would simply have compounded the problem. I feel like this is the core of this discussion, how does the game evolve to help bring more diversity into the rosters instead of having the same sweaty lists show up all the time, not only because they are competitive but also because it is absolutely no fun to play against them with a less competitive or more "thematic" list.

[@genesisgackt]

@@wookiemart well it depends. In Europe there's a lot of difference with the meta that's in the US. Personally I see a lot of people still playing Cabal now but I believe it's attrition style is outmatched by other affiliations. And after playing this game since it's release I can say that at least 2/3 of the current affiliations, if not more, can build a solid list that can win tournaments with some experience playing it. And the so called top tier affiliations are a lot more than one could imagine

[@migueldelvalle3871]

I think they need to fix the throw too