After Socrates: Episode 11 - Proper Proportions & The Right Mode | Dr. John Vervaeke

[@erlinae1]

It mattered not that l had to listen to John’s lectured repeatedly until the insights were realized. So grateful for this extraordinary messenger and leader.

[@MrAli00796]

Hi John, you have made me alive once again and elevated me the from Depressive, addictive and self destructive patterns of my behavior just by your beautiful heart that love to serve others and your great wisdom that brings meaning to life. Thank You so much I am forever grateful.

[@dalibofurnell]

Wow, John! This is probably one of my favorite episodes ❤️ well done! You're so amazing, God bless you. Thank you , kind Sir.

[@MrMarktrumble]

I aspire to be a sage. I am fumbling forward as best I can. This lecture is a great help. Thank you.

[@upheaval2024]

I found the ancient Buddhist wisdom of the Book of Eights (Aṭṭhakavagga) to be quite helpful. In this book is teaching the wisdom of being a sage 2,600 years ago. It was probably what led to the awakening of Buddha. The basic basic message was to have a purpose and overcome fate with virtue. And also dovetails with Vervaeke work on relevance realization and "the tyranny of the propositional." It defines this term "Sage" as one who is no longer attached to, or tempted by, their own views or desires.

[@jasonmitchell5219]

It's incredible how John has developed these ideas to such as extent that grasping their meanings is accessible to a much wider audience compared to his 'AMC' series. It would be amazing if there was some sort of geographical network for dialogical practices available for people who, like myself, are finding it difficult to connect with others who are interested in them. I'm in Glasgow, Scotland. Am I not looking hard enough or in the right places to connect with folk? If there aren't any locally then I should probably look into setting something up myself cos I really do want a piece of this. We need the practices to be more accessible to all.

[@amberstiefel9748]

I think it's easier to find that type of community when the work of coming to a desire for it has already been done and via one's own volition. What would that "look" like? How do you know and how do you prevent yourself from seeing it or triggering it in others?

[@Andrew.baltazar]

I do get the sense that I'd need to travel a few hours to some community in the woods just to find enough people to do this with. I'm trying to figure out 'bridging practices' that are more accessible to the layperson. Cos ideally I'd like to connect more with my friends and family without making them think I'm a raving loony.

[@hamedmoradi5291]

This superbly rich lecture continues to inspire me and afford metanoia in me.

[@the_wheelbarrow_of_pathos]

Hi John! Thank you so much for the important work you are doing to help individual persons and our current culture rediscover the importance of meaning in life, and showing the necessity of participatory practices for meaning to grow deep roots. I always learn so much from your videos. They have afforded many insights! 😉 I have one request to make. Would it be possible for you to provide pdf's of your work, primarily for After Socrates and AFTMC. As someone who already practices lectio divina, I'd love to be able to do the same with your work. Also.. a glossary of all the most important terms you employ would be very helpful! Love you John! 🙏🏼

[@johnvervaeke]

AFTMC has been turned into a book with a 40 page glossary. It is coming out this year. AS will similarly be turned into a book.

[@the_wheelbarrow_of_pathos]

@@johnvervaeke even better! I shall attempt to cultivate the virtue of patience in the meantime because I can't wait for this

[@tuckeroliver8300]

@@johnvervaeke awesome.

[@moodbox_no]

Love to hear this. I'm currently reading about lectio divina, so I can't wait to be with these books 😊

[@tracywilliamsliterature]

Vast, wonderful, beautiful, brilliant... sincere respect & thanks from Tracy in Wales...

[@mills8102]

Thank you! Already thought provoking. When cornered, you can always jump into the sky! What a wonderful quote. It seems that a paradox indicates a need for a new ontological layer to attain resolution.

[@nugzarkapanadze6867]

Thank you very much!

[@martinchikilian]

Such a powerful and insightful episode. It definitely helps to listen to John's perspective on the historical importance of Stoicism and how its practice can help in our modern lives. Would love to hear people's perspectives around some of the most common misinterpretations of this philosophy-religion so that the collective can take advantage of an even more powerful practice.

[@EcologicalEconomi]

I LOVE THIS! Love thou, I love it, I love me and I love you. :)

[@Golgibaby]

I was supposed to hear this after your talk with Tim Ferriss. Huzzah. Appreciative of your work!

[@5hydroxyT]

it strikes me that burnout, and chronic fatigue (and possibly other ‘strictly’ mental health issues) occur when we get stuck in the telic, doing mode, or at least have lost the balance between being and doing, play and work. The complete shut down is really the wisdom of the nervous system in action...

[@DanielDSantos]

John, in my 20 years as an executive in the corporate world, I see many people pursuing power and status (having mode) instead of meaning and servant leadership (being mode). Your video offered several perspectives on how to be different in my day to day. Thanks

[@yazanasad7811]

Lots of stoic lectures coming out in time for my deep reading of it. Love it! When cornered you can still jump into the sky - Seneca What disturbs us is not event but meaning (framing/fundamental framing) we give it Stoicism is about joy I would rather go mad than experience pleasure - Antisthenes Co-identification subconsciously in agent-arena environment. Automatically, unconsciously, reactively (stoicism helps us to wake us up to this) Prosoche - aware of awareness Porochiron - break up inappropriate framing -aside: language points to something alive. Food (am I pointing towards word or the being of food, the aliveness of food). Deaden language by seeing being as only a term. Lol interesting to bring in i-it / i-thou immediately after this thought Having needsto do with control consumption and mastery. Self terminating as well having vs being/becoming needs - having (final - had enough water vs being not final, developmental needs, open ended, maturity doesn't get realised). Not trying to manipulate world but ratio religio so to realise oneselves towards reality. Wonder allows us to call world into question so developmental relationship can begin. Mature person takes more reality into account and responsible to reality (see things as they really are). modal confusion - wrong mode for needs of pursuing (loving a cactus and denigrating a relationship). Pursue being needs through within having mode, prevalent in culture today (need to be mature = have a car, be in love = lots of sex). B.S wrong thing salient - orienting away from reality, satisfy beings needs through having stuff and ideas and materiality (being needs therefore not met therefore need more cars and sex, need more drugs - more manipulation). What are signs I am becoming more mature? Stoicism allows you to reframe events so no longer afraid so you can engage in serious play. View from above designed to wake you to existential moding and wake you from modal confusion. As I change arenas my self changes, fall into being mode more. It's a form of play. Allows you to play and flow with nature - enjoy (awe). Relates to love - being mode with something else Inner citadel relates to safety framing (allowing oneself to be being mode) How is reciprocal opening different to metta? Forgiveness is not feeling. It's an stance, giving for possibility of reorientation is made possible. Moving away from transactional/controlling stance. More about loosening roles. let go of better/worse hero/villain, not about positive feelings, discover things not seen in both enemy and self. Sentient beings - ecological partners more than having mode. Allows one to take a step back (participatory stepping back) to allow other person to take on more roles. So that they are bigger than before

[@yazanasad7811]

Hume - we don't do evil, we fail to love wisely We choose lower goods instead of higher goods Not serving yourself well here

[@yazanasad7811]

Activity service goal (tellic mode iirc -telos purpose is good - work) - you can tell this if ask oneself if you'd take a shortcut for this Goal in service of activity (paratellic - for its own sake -play) - for enjoyment. Don't want shortcut. Having sex Vs making love Intelligent organisms develop through play. Play is in service of being mode -play mode supports being mode Wow I misunderstood maturity completely You play tai qi (another area of modal confusion sometimes - although when I think about it it feels good to tai chi) Serious play is balancing between old and new identities. Play vis a visa parenting/having a child. Role playing

[@yazanasad7811]

In between transformative experience - Dog if want a child (serious play + taste before full commitment - allows us perspectival and participatory knowledge without full commitment) Holiday before committed relationship

[@yazanasad7811]

Right, view from above is about disciplining desire (the discipline of desire) so that we aim towards the good (Nature). We discipline desire so that it focussed on being mode and so less morally confused. By doing this, we can stay in touch with virtues more easily and hence feel enjoyment more. Joy. Having mode is not for us I'm not trying to break ego/frame, but to reorient it to the good/Nature/being

[@yazanasad7811]

Spiritual bypassing - trying to get the being mode through the having mode. Only meditate and forget mundane stuff - Lose job for example, disregard body Modal confusion is bad. Not having mode or being exclusively

[@climbingmt.sophia]

For engaging this series, I have chosen to listen to each episode from a deep meditative space. I wasn't sure why that felt important to do, it just seemed right. Now I know. Towards the end it became obvious that I am allowing these perspectives/notions/ideas to seriously play on the deepest level I can manage. And it's Beautiful.

[@brunomaruszczak4016]

Thank you Dr. Vervaeke, I find your work inexhaustible, as a young person I aspire to maturity and find more guidance every time I come back here. I'm incredibly grateful. I also wanted to ask a question: How do all those different contemplative practices relate? Are they relatively interchangeable or does each one have some irreplaceable qualities?

[@The.Zen.Cyn1c]

I just loved the cover of that book "The Wisdom of Hypatia"

We think love is an emotion. This is wrong. "What? Of course it is an emotion!" No, it is not. If I love someone, - that can make me very happy when I am with them, - it can make me very sad when we are apart, or they suffer harm, - it can make me very angry if somebody threatens them. Love is not an emotion, it is a thing that is expressed through multiple different emotions. Love is an existencial stance. It is a mode. It is a way of binding yourself in deliberately, mutually participated coidentification and reciprocal opening. I develop through you. You develop through me. And we both stay faithful to that.

[@KalebPeters99]

​@Shitty Eugene That's a shitty take, Eugene

[@projectmalus]

but if emotion describes an object of being at a particular moment, how is this different on levels except as between objects of being at a particular moment? Are all humans (and other similar higher order forms of life) the same object, and the levels just separated frequencies, separated by the particular topological access arrangement? In which case I would already be bound by that, and the happy an accepting and allowing of fullness within that, while the fear, sadness, and anger are impediments to fullness of being in the particular object, if such exists aside from our perception limitation.

[@clintnorton4322]

Love is such a strong sensation, do you think it's possible that we have a bias to afford more meaning to love than is appropriate? Perhaps it's a complex emotion, comprised of the interactions of many other emotions.

[@projectmalus]

@@clintnorton4322 Love is a complex emotion object? Each emotion a slightly curved vector facet that wants to be, power attached to yearning, mystery in the hidden side, the turning (or not) to see. Love as a mirrorball then, composed of actionable facets that light up with a laser of attention. As much being as anything else? Describing the planet object and the facets comprising the ecosystem, maybe.

[@KalebPeters99]

The "view from above" practice seems to me to imply a reflected "view from below" of zooming down into your body. And I would propose that both would be aided in efficacy and resolution if given a clear picture of what the science describes at each level. I think Gregg Henriques' tree could help here, but even more if it were expanded to include intermediate levels between the main four (like Tyler Volk's 12 levels)

[@juanromero7189]

Beautiful episode John! Thank you for give me clarity on stoicism. What a beautiful philosophy of life stoicism is! The practices here are very similar to metta practices in Buddhism. Is there any differences between then?

[@vidyakara]

I wasn't clear if the Reciprocal Opening practice was from the Stoics. It seems to be a modification of the Buddhist metta bhavana practice. If it was practiced by the stoics that would be very interesting indeed.

[@GrapplingwithReality]

Going to need to queue up Boston - More Than a Feeling, after that distinction on love

[@michealwalli7324]

Dr. Vervaeke, I have a question about being and having modes. are skills things we have or are we the type of person who can do certain things?

[@ryaningall2824]

Your insights have helped me and those around me, thanks :)

[@mb2982]

Hi Dr. John , can't wait to see your take on Nietzsche's harsh criticism of Socrates as I guess us moderns are followers of Nietzsche whether we know it or not

[@normaklassen1498]

Question: did you have lights flashing during the guided process or was that simply my expereince?

[@Art2GoCanada]

Thanks John! He's the principal I'm his Agent.

[@projectmalus]

Thanks for the video. edit: great practices!

[@wehsee912]

It is possible to cultivate a deep understanding of virtue participating ignorantly in impulsive romance!

[@ruhdandoujon6310]

if everything is embodied, as I think it is, what is the corresponding embodiment for "that existential stance" which for you is love if some kind of "feeling" is excluded? ( I take feeling in Damasio's sense)

[@donw6372]

I would be curious how this discussion related to rationality could be put into conversation with Rudolf Otto’s arguments on an experience with the Numen as an irreducible non-rational experience; insofar as I understand it, we cannot rationalize the experience, or play, with the numen.

[@johnvervaeke]

Rationality would not be about grasping the numinous but overcoming self deception and projection, and enhancing religio so that one was in right relationship to the numinous.

[@donw6372]

@@johnvervaeke thank you for the response. This re-orientation is very helpful. If I understand, it’s not obtaining cognitive mastery of the numen through propositional knowing, but a deep sense of self knowing and discovery. Which brings to mind a St. Aquinas saying, “Let me know you my knower…and what is in there in me that could be hidden from you, Lord, to whose eyes the abyss of man’s consciousness are naked, even if I were unwilling to confess it to you? In doing so I would only hide you from myself, not myself from you…”

[@classycompositions932]

The having and being modes sound a lot like the left and right hemisphere modus operandi, as described by Ian Mcgilchrist.

[@ericrosales-od3gm]

Any chance you could recall the episode you spoke about David Hume in the 50 episode series, much appreciated!

[@royaebrahim2449]

❤❤❤

[@cardinaelsam]

Ok here is my problem. I did the zoom out exercise and suddenly my sense of self was in the exercise and not in my body doing the exercise. I did not feel my body any more i was just Self. Or was i just conciousness mistaking me for a Self? And when i snapped or woke back up in my body i felt a jolt of energy surging thrue my body( like 10.000Volts).now i am mortely confused.what am "I" ?

[@_ARCATEC_]

💓

[@ethanb2554]

What Bishop Maximus is trying to do here is essentially ask Vervaeke what his dia-logos is aimed at, or rather, imply his concern that it is not aimed at anything.

[@danielfoliaco3873]

33:51 Alan Watts

[@phoenixkennedy5927]

Anyone who enjoys this lecture will surely love the book The Real Christ by the greatest mystic you have never heard of, Bernadette Roberts. Enjoy your journey.

[@phoenixkennedy5927]

She considered herself a Stoic and Orthodox Christian.

[@kevinreim2287]

Hi John, is there a place where we can ask you questions about the series?

[@mills8102]

He has regular Q&A sessions for patrons.

[@KalebPeters99]

Also does occasional Q&As on his Discord server!

[@wehsee912]

Is the really real play romantic?

[@Hyumanity]

1:28:00 Sharing this video in case anyone else finds it useful for the practice. kzbin.info/www/bejne/gXardHape6t8q7s Really helps with the zooming in and zooming out. From the quantum to the cosmos.

[@mb2982]

How come you didn't ever run into communitarianism by people like MacIntyre

[@wehsee912]

🌚☄️❤️💫

[@projectmalus]

Accessing the being mode via tennis (I think badminton is easier in seeing this) is the 3 card monte play which the whitetail deer engage in, suggested being masking real actions that meaningfully separate objects. Slightly different objects in the case of deer and wolf groups. Humans objectifying more by rectifying the frequencies they are privy to, clipping the tops of waves into objects in different rates of time as different wave energy intervals. I wonder if processes sugar increases this intensity so the rate of time increases which might be a fearful thing. A cynical person as less believing in the reality of these "objects" so it becomes all play 'gaming' as meaningless. Could be verified by quitting processed sugar, so the rate of presentation of objects is allowing of playfulness in asserting "being". It might work as access arrangement as being and physicality moving, that tends to cluster around the being. By asserting with rigid latticed durable materials this is saying the physicality is being in which the moving "spirit" flows, on its way to somewhere else presumably, or simply disappearing from "here" as too constrained, dropped down to a simpler access arrangement that allows waves. Perhaps the AGI?

[@nq100]

Reframing at will would be bullshitting youreself with the given consequenzes.

[@nq100]

And by the way nature does not value maturing that much as you do . In nature maturing is a kind of coping mechanism. In flow with nature has nothing to do with maturing as Main goal. Im big into dogs . I mean realy big! The best development i can acomplish in a dog has also verry little to do with maturing. Dogs know god and if you are lucky you can see god in dogs .