After Socrates: Episode 13 - Ritual Way of Knowing | Dr. John Vervaeke

[@johnvervaeke]

I apologize for my error in saying that Proclus influenced Augustine. That is incorrect. I confused Augustine with Dionysus.

[@swayson5208]

Maybe add a footnote to the video at that point?

[@PoesieUndGlaube]

You also say "oppositional strategies" instead of "oppositional structures" while quoting Schilbrack at 58:00 and "ritualizing is a practice" instead of "ritualizing is a process" at 1:00:00. Or maybe he changed the wording slightly in his book, because I was following you along by reading Schilbracks article from the Journal of Ritual Studies thats available online. Nevertheless am I very grateful for you bringing up that very interesting article. Thank you! Speaking german I want to share, that when I hear you using the word "participation", in my mind it always has a double translation of the words "teil-nehmen" and "teil-haben", which mean "to take part/get involved" and "to have a part/sharing in the experience". So the involvement discloses itself to me as both: receptive and engaging.

[@BrodesG]

This episode shines for me. Your work has shown me that Neo-Platonic Christianity is indispensable. There is a necessity for Christ-likeness & self-transcendence. You are a true treasure, John Vervaeke.

[@MattWilkinsonwilkoteq]

I love the irony of learning so much propositional knowledge about the non propositional world, in order to achieve gnosis from our entrapment within propositional tyranny. I am not complaining though - it's great learning about these different dimensions of reality. Thanks John and team!

[@nugzarkapanadze6867]

Thank you very much, John! Thank you...

[@RRRandSI]

Thank you!

[@dalibofurnell]

"To face reality, it has to disclose itself. It has to face you in an appropriate way." -Dr John Vervaeke Then I couldn't help but think you've got BARS, John! When you said .."trying to get a grip between breadth and depth.." You said it with cadence that made me stop and give freedom to the thought that what you said could easily be part of an incredible rap song with fitting gesture and insight flow that has transfer appropriateness most definitely! 😅❤much love "Reality in itself is dialectic into dialogos." 🙌

[@psychlops924]

John is already a rap artist. Have you ever heard of Meaningwave? kzbin.info/www/bejne/rmSueJlmr8d1rdU

[@callummilburn8204]

This encapsulates something I am becoming increasingly aware of with my zen practice, but also my study of mathematics. You can't solve all problems by analysis. New ideas require moving from analysis to play, so you can re orientate your self before re emergence to the the focus on solving the problem, at least in maths. Some of my zen work has definitely influenced my awareness, and practice. But the Zen koan practice is something that definitely fits into what is discussed here.

[@Jacob011]

The fly makes a comeback! I've been watching it very closely. 🙃

[@JasenRobillard]

As a puzzle designer, artist and pattern maker/observer, this resonates deeply with what I'm aiming for in my craft: puzzles as rituals that, through embodied participation & opponent processing, transfer knowledge and lessons on fittedness.Thanks for another great lecture John.

[@gettingtogive]

I have heard you make the ritual argument in multiple places and those lectures gave me the taste to start some new daily practices, but this lecture just landed in a much deeper way. In my opinion this was another or your Masterpieces! I know you often say you just want to help and humility runs through your being John, but the value you are giving away for this generation and many beyond is truly remarkable. Thank you once again 🙏

[@catalinganciu8069]

Just amazing! I've created a habit to listen to you as often as possible and do my daily books screenshots recomandations! By the way is 1:23am Romania time!🙏

[@dr.amirayousef3979]

I appreciate your work. Thank you indeed ❤

[@roadcrewfilms]

This channel is pure gold!!!!! Thanks so much!

[@martinchikilian]

Such a profound episode with lots to unpack. This episode hit a primordial part of my being and I think that’s why I felt it so profoundly. I only wonder how farther and deeper you could go if you didn’t have to guard yourself against criticism from looking too new age-y. I don’t mean that as criticism because I understand where you’re coming from, it’s just I can’t help but think faulty associations with magical thinking prevent us from reaching deeper into reality and, in consequence, you can only skim the surface of what you’re trying to convey to us. Looking forward to watching episode 14 now!

[@TheMeditatingPhilosopher]

It's terrific that in ritual people can make a higher order thing and participate with it.

[@colorfulbookmark]

I respect and honor for people like Dr.Vervaeke and ritual designing people, some deflections are not by them, and they suggest certain positive and responsible attitude for lives. The existential meaning of life is how to see the world, ritual is what we think as focused and proximal nature of the world, of course, to have reflection and purity in life. The secondary sense of ritual is pitfall sometimes, but not the concept and practice in itself. The impulse to make unrecognition is matter.

[@vickyturner8373]

Love, love, Love !! As a long term Ashtanga Yoga Practitioner (a traditional lineage with roots in Patanjali Yoga Sutras), and a Circling practitioner, I have been following your work as a comparative study - east-west philosophy/science - as a practitioner with an evolving experiential journey to work with, (and in particular a potential relationship btwn Patanjali and Socrates/Plato - Axial Age). So exciting. Thank you John for your work and dedication to sharing your wisdom and understanding.

[@marcograziano7356]

John, loved this! One comment, with the hopes of contribution to the project. Ritual seems to be an incredibly powerful tool for anagogic accent. However, I'm concerned there is a risk in that ritual, via its many mechanisms - imaginal work, music, embodiment, symbolism, smell, sight, touch, etc. can create very powerful forms of self deception. I worry there may be transformative experiences that actually orient us incorrectly, and can be difficult to escape. I think of the many traumatic experiences people have had within religious and pseudo-religious situations, through what can colloquially be referred to as "brain washing". Also, I see some convergence between ritual and many powerful forms of manipulation that have been used in history. Of course, nothing ventured nothing gained... however, I'd love to see some commentary or suggestions on how we can self correct and discern through this non-logical journey. Thank you again for your incredible work.

[@Vectorized_mind]

Your are great teacher 🧐♥️.

[@mcnallyaar]

I'm not caught up yet!!!!!! Literally got goosebumps just reading the TITLE of this Episode!!!!! I've got work to do!!!!!

[@dalibofurnell]

Likewise I keep pausing and replaying, making notes and soaking this in

[@psychnstatstutor]

@@dalibofurnell I caught up last week after being 4 behind; new rule! Listen while washing up so I take more time to mentally process and only stop for notes that need 'untangling'; guess I'm trusting myself more to live it rather than trying to 'remember things in a way I couldn't say'... or something lol

[@zeff]

Thank you so much for these series of videos, John! I love how you go deep with each topic. Really insightful.

[@mikegarrigan5182]

Because I am anticipating some of your dialogue, I think I’m getting it. You are using words that fit the experience. Transformative. Thank you.

[@moodbox_no]

I just realized that i've into phenomenology in many years when i was making art. I feel drawn to persuming this form of research again. Love the intelligibility the book "Experiential Phenomenology" brings me. The transframing experience is increasing rapidly.

[@petesake1181]

Experimental or experiential Phenomenology?

[@moodbox_no]

@@petesake1181 Thanks for the correction. Experimental. My apologies.

[@PetrosSyrak]

Kahlil Gibran has described the first person account of transformative experience in this beautiful poem (on a more surface read, one may say it’s specifically about death… then again, death could, in a way, be seen as the “ultimate transformative experience”): It is said that before entering the sea
a river trembles with fear.

She looks back at the path she has traveled,
from the peaks of the mountains,
the long winding road crossing forests and villages.

And in front of her,
she sees an ocean so vast,
that to enter
there seems nothing more than to disappear forever.

But there is no other way.
The river can not go back.

Nobody can go back.
To go back is impossible in existence.

The river needs to take the risk
of entering the ocean
because only then will fear disappear,
because that’s where the river will know
it’s not about disappearing into the ocean,
but of becoming the ocean.

[@moodbox_no]

I need a bigger book shelf.

[@anthonyrissi4739]

There’s something off about saying that our smaller, more basic routines aren’t rituals. If you say that, you seem to lose that “vertical transfer”. Since you're familiar with Peterson, take his admonition to “clean your room” for example. In doing that, you’re putting your room in alignment with the order that you want to see travel out through your life. If you start with ordering your room, maybe that transfers to ordering your life, then the ordering of the community around you, and perhaps even your “order of love" (ordo amoris) which Augustine calls the "brief and true definition of virtue." It isn’t a very powerful ritual, but it seems to be a way to participate in some transcendent beauty where people notice the stimulation and achievement of meaning that comes via cleaning your room. It may be better to say that there is something like a hierarchy of ritual that is shaped by a normativity of horizontal and vertical transfer.

[@Fr_Mitch]

Matt Rossano's books "Ritual in Human Evolution and Religion" and "Supernatural Selection" illuminate this subject. Would love to see a long conversation between John V., Pageau, and Rossano!

[@psychlops924]

I feel like John is basically picking up where Joseph Campbell left off

[@psychnstatstutor]

Prof Nagy speaks of ritual as a frame, and myth as the canvas; they always get something wrong in myth, it's messy, ritual is the putting right, provides the telos especially as it can be seasonal Here in Australia I see the fitting in the stories and dances of First Australians, different nations with sometimes different versions; each fits the environment (some people have used historical astronomy to map onto stars of the past and landscapes under water) I read Turner at uni...few books have now bubbled to the top area of the reading list...am still on the Dialogues tho >_

[@rtizzi]

One may argue that in the case of video games, the transfer rate is growing as the context/applications of the arena match more to the relevance realization and flow practiced (even realized) through gaming. The mental distress may not be from the gaming per se, but the broader culture adapting to accommodate a more sophisticated game.

[@ahmaditani8168]

This episode changed the way I think about rituals from my own tradition, and I really appreciate that. Every episode is like a fertilizer that helps me appreciate my own religious tradition even more. One point of criticism: I get very conflicted when it comes to the "Circling Institute" and "Evolve Move Play". On the one hand, circling has had a profound impact on my life, and initiated a transformation in my relationships that is still going on to this day. On the other hand, I keep asking myself why it is so expensive? Why are their websites beaming with self-promotion? It has this "scam" vibe that puts me (and others around me) off. What do you think?

[@sebastianv007]

Hey John! I love all the knowledge that you have and the way you connect everything together. I'm aspiring to be at least half as well read and capable of bringing together everything I read as you are. I would love and appreciate if you could give me a list of books to read that would help me earn the type of knowledge that you have. I'm mainly interested in perception (the types of knowing and all that good stuff), if you don't have the time to address philosophical and psychological ones too. Thank you in advance and best of luck with your future work!

[@yuyurolfer]

Thank you very much for your work. The only thing I am missing from this episode are concrete examples of rituals and how they can translate to other areas of one's life. Will that be done in an upcoming episode?

[@colorfulbookmark]

Ritual is in primary sense an opportunity to be focused and thinking about how to be member of proximity, in secondary sense, to put someone in perplexed mode of living. In certain practice or criteria, praying or believing in Jesus Christ, ritual people are trustworthy people so sometimes deceived by use of ritual to harden the decision of maternal effect on children, it makes overhead such as (1) burden of otherwise experience of self explanation, (2) to be forced out to be against Christianity which are not the mode of being in subjective man. Focus and proximity inverted this phenomena and plurality is into the issue.

[@moodbox_no]

Leap of the permeable frog. In between the two worlds.

[@PriceWrite]

John's frog unearthed a line of poetry buried deep in my brain. "To a tadpole, frog is heaven." I think it's Emily Dickinson. Sounds like her. But I can't find it. Google can't find it. Nor can ChatGPT-4. I love the line. I think it's true.

[@AdielShnior]

Thank you so much for this supporting content. Can you please put a link to the article that you read from?

[@YehudHalevi]

To understand the pronunciation of Eriugena: it is a hellenized name that he gave to himself, it means Irish-born (Eriu-genos). So his anglicized name is pronounced Eriujena (as in genesis or generation), and his original hellenized name is pronounced Eriugena with a hard g (as in genos).

[@projectmalus]

I was transfixed for ten minutes at the conclusion, by the next episode being suggested. Is this a demonstration of the Stoic contemplation of the current video cut short by the Cynic offering of a rather loose next video idea? where the first (current video contemplation and pattern allowance) is encapsulated so to be (but simplified) and move from that lily pad into the amorphous open Cynic, then back again? Moving right along. Thanks!

[@jonathonray6198]

I get your point on Freud. But I think the link by Freud on ritual (in relation to such as activities as repetitive behaviours) is still there and you help flesh that out. The psychotic or compulsive neurotic is unable to use ritual helpfully in this process you have described. And so cannot transform their trauma. Too early for me to flesh this out but a number of different threads come together there for me around the psychoanalytic psychology of this.

[@luisalbertomaldonado2658]

You could say the Freudian ritual is a dark ritual. Something that takes the form of a ritual but fails to deliver the appropriateness of a proper ritual. Am I getting your idea?

[@jonathonray6198]

@@luisalbertomaldonado2658 yeah that’s the idea. Part of the lack of transformation is that the ritual is now substituting for communication that is falling on deaf ears. But there is more to the story as the function of “reality testing” does seem to be important and may be established initially through ritual, but is then important for adults in any society and we use this to discern true from false insights - with psychotics that is obviously not functioning and with compulsives there does usually exist a magical thinking association between the obsessions and the compulsions or at least in how one manages one’s thoughts and feelings. There is overlap between the psychotic and the obsessive compulsive cases. You could say that the psychotic now falls outside of the social rituals that could be transformative, and the for the obsessive and compulsive it’s more like a part of them (like their trauma) that falls outside of social rituals and so is now in an isolated ritual or attempted ritual where transformation is not as important a function as is protection. Some initial thoughts. There are clearly emanating and emerging factors interacting. So it is both the failure of certain ritual, and the establishment of other less transformative “rituals”. Which I still think are a type of ritual and ritualisation just not as transformative.

[@kyleelsbernd7566]

Glad to see that Plato is being rediscovered. However Buddhism is essentially nihilistic and therefore quite alien to the western tradition.

[@abdelhassan9501]

What are some examples of juicy rituals that one can adopt?

[@clintnorton4322]

Ritual is a transitional practice that facilitates familiarization with attaining states of gnosis. They are a substitute for direct access to the vibrational information that defines reality and shouldn't be considered a permanent solution. Nor should religion.

[@edwardberge2536]

Given your emphasis on validation and against woo woo, I'm wondering what you think of the contemporary schools of Hermetic Qabalah like the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn and its offshoots? They use the work of Iamblicus in performing rituals, chanting divine names, using symbology and Tarot imagery etc.

[@Beederda]

I appreciate your time JV ❤🍄 would you consider a psilocybin tea trip in a way to face a loved ones death a ritualistic thing? Cause I consider the mushroom very sacred to me and only seem the need to do them when i am met with deaths griefs in life, so i am able to move through the suffering alone always. Ive never done them with other people before so figured it seems i have a certain ritual way of doing them without even acknowledging that.

[@missh1774]

😌

[@dalefavier2949]

Can someone help me with the term onto-normativity? I can parse it into "correct being," or maybe, in a nod to Buddhist jargon, "right being," but that's hopelessly vague... I have the feeling there's a more precise meaning, or implicit context, that I'm missing.

[@quentissential]

19:23 inborn persuasion

[@royaebrahim2449]

❤❤

[@libaax1342]

John, The Element of Theology by Proclus, which translation do you use? recommend?

[@johnvervaeke]

The Dodds

[@donaldboyce9782]

Augustine a bit earlier than Proclus so influenced by Plotinus but not Proclus.

[@johnvervaeke]

Yes, thank you for the correction.

[@donaldboyce9782]

I am guilty myself of mixing up Porphyry and Proclus in the Platonic timeline. It was only until I became an Augustine fan that I got it sorted out. Thank you so much for your work 🙏🏼

[@Novaxpass]

I haven’t heard someone say “acoutromon” since Steve Carell in the 40 Year Old Virgin 😅

[@yazanasad7811]

Music is horizontal in that can induce trance put state in someone, patterns in e vironmentvand consciousness co shape and align oo Process (emananation emergence)return - symphenata - dislcose new areas of congnition, agent arena can move up a level levels of self - transformative experience. Vertical non propositionally serious play safety frame (cant do it propositionaly obviously) (e.g. a symbol that allows us to go up a level to adulthood like growing a beard) 22:00:00 - definition of theurgia Way of knowing in ritual that you cannot get through other means. Learn about arena and agency Rituals are intergenerational and therefore related to myths. Perhaps related to why Plotinus brings up cratos and older gods, as a way of bringing that previous knowledge into rituals they were doing at the time Try and study the same way that going to be tested on exam - will transfer orientation as the brain wants. rituals will help transfer to other contexts, to orient Empty of ritual implies being cut off from parts of yourself, no access Sometimes change arena to agent and agent to arena - culture - to ferment co shaping and create meaning (intergenerational). Ritual as a metaphysical inquiry - source of knowledge for human existence/conditions - character of experience itself (phenmomolgy?? Why not use this word) Ritual allows to orient to opponent viees heaven earth male female etc for optimal grip transfers Imaginary can be real in that it's a medium between objectivity and subjectivity, it doesn't have to be a projection(image). Can come from world as from you and co-agree

[@yazanasad7811]

The symbol comes from a more encompassing frame into smaller frame and draws smaller frame into bigger framing Rituals train appropriateness (agent arena perhaps and more). Transfers also outside of ritual space (relevance realisation). Rituals allow for transfer appropriateness Ritual allows you to fit yourself to the masterpiece, rather than create the masterpiece. Its to allow for the ritual to be arena and you to be participant. Maybe same for Ulysses too/bible, you make these tomes Central to your life and respond to these

[@yazanasad7811]

Liturgical cosmos

[@GallumA]

Synthemata.. Ambigrams?

[@Shotzeethegamer]

Is there a book list somewhere?

[@psychlops924]

I think John said there’s one on his website

[@rubenvisser24]

Hmm juicy ritual 🤤

[@riffking2651]

Why is the audio so low?

[@badreddine.elfejer]

Because it's relevant to you 😅

[@deepblack67]

Iamblichus?

[@RickDelmonico]

Ritual and synesthesia. Multisensual knowing.

[@Ykpaina988]

Jesus, that’s why I have been going to Ukrainian Catholic Church my entire life. It’s not rocket science . Ritual feels like good Knowledge . Haters gunna hate I dont have time for you or your blindness I’ve read my Heidegger and Jung and Stoicism and phenomenology and gotten degrees in computer science and in the end I’m Religious but I’ll think you under the table. Recover Being stop misreading. Heidegger was not secular because he masked Taoist concepts in black Forrest German Vernacular he was a deeply religious thinker even if he chose to no longer be affiliated with the Catholic Church during his prime writing ✍️ years but he did have a catholic burial and that’s how mr being towards death chose to be memorialized in his provincial hometown. Think about that he took his leap of faith I to new uncharted territories of language and in the end expanded his map. That’s a heroes journey of sorts. Anyway life is short be good .

[@deepblack67]

What you are talking about here seems to best come from Iamblichus (?). This is tantra (Shaws new book points this out). I am a Vajrayana yogi, and this is Deity Yoga, any Mandala creation, all power fields are of this embodied, non-dual nature. Non-Dual mandatory. Or else you are in the Demonic Possession of Christianity and Islam.

[@johnvervaeke]

Yes I agree and the Shaw book is excellent. I met Shaw recently and we really hit it off. He will be coming on my channel.

[@deepblack67]

@@johnvervaeke I was blown away, I had studied Hermetics in the 90's before going into Vajrayana, and recently started writing and thinking about this and came to a similar conclusion with the later Rosicrucians and Hermetic Orders. The Al-chemical Marriage is Tantra and by the late 18th c there is a print that is very much a depiction of a combination of Tantric yogic practices, Tummo and Karmamudro as the Union of the Red King and the Green Queen. Theurgy is fully Diety Yoga. Come to Summer Coarse in the Alps this summer and learned some Embodied Practices with the Karmapa, Lama Ole, Nedo Rinpoche, and Diamond Way Buddhism.

[@_ARCATEC_]

🎡 38:57 -"So, my practice in the ritual, tutors me. So I can fit myself to other contexts." My interpretation of this is: Ritual practises, Habits and autopsies. I would suggest that these are developed as a result of engaging with relevance realisation, that there is a recursive feedback loop between the perspectival and the participatory allowing for the deepening of Wisdom, I could go on, but there are a couple of interesting things that come up immediately They are in regards to the embedding of collective memory and the framing of temporalities. 🤹💓 "Transfer' of appropriateness" I like that.

[@projectmalus]

If rituals gone wrong (habits) emphasize the non-human as simplified power, then "two objects for the price of one is allowed, or one object asserted at the cost of both" might be the choice. The invitation by John (I think) is for the person to create this "mind palace" where the Word is inside and maintained and engaged with by deliberate rituals. I think there's generally a balance between processes inside an object, then a centering in the Word which is the state of the ecosystem object...which object can move from personal self awareness to recorded knowledge to culture to planet ecosystem to solar system embedded in the galaxy etc, as access arrangements.

[@projectmalus]

Ritualistic pruning from knowledge affording more "specifically knowing" entities like trees...the food forest ecosystem as the environment allowed, in which the forest as ecosystem affords the individual trees (or people) the Word. This way, control is asserted by the Manager without withholding knowledge which is where the patriarchy goes wrong, withholding information and reducing power to a simple access arrangement, first for the group and then for the individual, so more of a simplified oneness is better as more powerful. Food forest better than mind palace? because the power of virtual reality in subverting the mind palace is negated.

[@_ARCATEC_]

Oops I was supposed to say autopoeus 😂 that said I'll keep it there as a bit of serious play.

[@_ARCATEC_]

@@projectmalus that was epic! 💓. What comes up for me after the initial recognition of the necessity for responsible care of knowledge systems. Is considering the extended nature of the embedding process ultimately on a cosmic scale.