Age of Mythology Retold: Are Chariots OP?

[@2nightwehunt]

This man is hard at work with this frequency of uploads...I kinda wished the Retold release brought a larger influx of viewers and gamers but still, the community seems to be healthy.😊

[@Schmuutzigg]

@@2nightwehunt with more player base comes a (at least slightly) more toxic community, so perhaps it's for the best. A good example is league of legends, it was so chill during beta/early season 1, not so much anymore.

[@2nightwehunt]

@Schmuutzigg Yeah I play League since S1. It's a snowball effect - AoE2 and AoM have a community of dad's and people that feel nostalgia towards the game. Streamers are also positive and these compound and create space where people behave nice to you so you do too. League has a toxic streamer base and that snowballed into a toxic community...but of course this isn't just by chance...*the biggest difference* is that usually ranked games in AoE games are 1v1 while in League your game is decided by 4 other people. But I feel like nowdays the toxic community is just a part of League, its so normalised people just don't take it seriously and consider it entertainment..and so do I honestly...and if you want to play a serious game that isn't toxic you need high GM lobby. The environment just isn't comperable at all and eventho size matters its not the main criteria...I am a part of both Age and League communities and would not behave in an Age team game like I do in League...different environments different "culture"

[@Schmuutzigg]

@@2nightwehunt Yeah league is definitely an entirely different game with more team focus, yet on the contrary most players do not play with their team and prefer to blame others. Do love these older RTS games for the wholesome people that make it enjoyable, even when getting stomped. I noticed, in my age of mythology team games, most people just try to play rather than type/argue in chat (an incurable symptom of most league players). I know RTS is more of a 1v1 competitive thing, but it's nice to have team games that are chill as well.

[@Bloody0range]

I'm hoping for a big influx of people once the Chinese civilization gets released. Because to be honest, while Retold looks and plays a lot better than the original, there is not that much brand new content.

[@johnarbiter]

Really funny intro good content as always!!!!

[@acsadcasdfafds6064]

Thanks John Arbitrary

[@markvanderwerf8592]

Few things missing in analysis: Arcus upgraded you get turmae and cheiros upgraded too. Chariots you only get chariot. Chariots have cavalry status. This makes them get countered by Prodomos especially. Unit lines are not equal between all civs. Doesn't matter if unit is stronger, just matters if factions are balanced.

[@AnkaraAnkaraMessiMessiMessi]

This is another reason why Chariots should not be considered OP. They are hard to mass, their migdol upgrade only affectes them and not other units (wich is why the cost got lowered) and they do not have much techs to increase their potential. Even if they are not 100% equal, they still have the same porpuse: main long range dps. The analysis he made is totally correct. And, as you said, the fact that Chariots count as cavarly unit increases the ammount of counters. The unit is balanced.

[@IamMagicAOM]

Well said

[@GARGANTUANMASKEDFISH]

Feels similar to the way I perceive people complaining about Slingers as an overpowered strat - Slingers require a ton of investment and unique upgrades before they're allowed to be good whereas Toxotes are good right out of the gate.

[@AnkaraAnkaraMessiMessiMessi]

@@GARGANTUANMASKEDFISH It does, the only diff is that the Slinger techs made them too good that they became more than just an counter archer unit. They melted siege weapons, infantry and performed well vs cavarly and myth units. That was boderline OP. Nowdays they are balanced thanks to the balance team. But i get your point.

[@Slyzor1]

You don't use turma and cheiro past age 2

[@oMoradin]

I was watching that Rapl's game and I got to the same conclusion that the lack shield armory upgrades and the fact that he couldn't mass the rc before engage was his big mistake, also the macro was very off, tons of wood and no food.

[@surgeonsergio6839]

5:12 Hey guys magic of the law here. Check out my scientifically accurate raiding cavalry!

[@hazza4751]

I think you dont factor in speed of the unit enough when doing you’re analysis (which was solid dont get me wrong) . If it gets to the point where the chariot archer mass is large, its hard for most pantheons especially norse (as theyre basically full melee) to not get continuously poked down and bleed units constantly. This is particularly the case with gold mines being forward and exposed at the stage of the game at which theyre most dominant so its hard to zone them away from poking your gold. Also the fact that rapl has to invest so much more into killing 1 unit type whereas kvothh doesnt need to invest much at all into different unit types + unit upgrade lines. Also kvoth couldve made it even harder for rapl by mixing in spears or camels once the ta mass had been depleted. Like even 5-10 camels would bait out hirdmen which would lose to chariots harder than the rc. Ofc rapl misplayed it with the 2-3 tc play. He couldve went mythic and pushed with fimble and ballista etc or just mass age 3 and attack, however compared the amount of misplays kvoth did in the early game this was not as significant imo it was still a decent approach. Point being is that one mistake vs egypt chariot ball and it snowballs way harder out of control than most if not all unit types. And in that sense i think its bad for the game

[@ZazeH]

To sum the gameplay up: Valley of the kings and some good engangements and a lot of mistakes from his opponent made Chariots op. But its kinda funny that those conversations are only for egyptians for some reason

[@MrLakislazopoulos]

Egyptian player lost first 2 fights. In the second in particular he lost 60-70 population. And he still managed to win. Any other civilization would resign after the second fight. There is no coming back from this. Only the egyptians can come back from this for a number of reasons. Chariots archers have 10s training time is broken actually. It should be at least 16s. Migdols are actually cheap, they are expensive for everyone else but they are cheap for egyptians. Chariot archers are just good against everything. Egyptian economy is really unfair, everything is free or straight up cheaper. Come on, he replenish at least 100 pop in army loses and hit up heroic and mythic age like nothing happened. The moment the Norse guy lost 60-70 pop he lost the game, this never seems to be the case for the egyptians.

[@georgestain2803]

Rapl won fights and than did nothing with that. Your wall of text doesn't prove you right. But I think valley of kings is kinda OP upgrade.

[@MrLakislazopoulos]

@@georgestain2803 he took second town center + inflicting 100 population casualties to his opponent. 100 population casualties are around 3000 resources. So it was 2vs1 tc with the guy with 2 tc being in front on military as well. Thats a huge lead actually, and everybody would lose to that except the egyptians.

[@georgestain2803]

@@MrLakislazopoulos standard aom situation. Rapl was ineffective in his doing. End of story.

[@pierer91]

@@georgestain2803 That's such a weak take. If Egyptian won those first 2 fights we all know it's basically gg. But because its Norse he has to win them both and immediately try be aggressive or it's just a classic AOM situation?

[@GARGANTUANMASKEDFISH]

I feel like whenever we see these "is this OP" queries they always seem to be directed at the Egyptians now and I do wonder how much of that is just in response to people being taken off-guard by pushback from Egyptian pros who are finally figuring out the civ.

[@pierer91]

It's far too easy for Egyptian to come back from a catalogue of errors that would usually be gg for norse or greek, I think that's where Rapls frustration has come from.

[@IamMagicAOM]

That I agree with

[@nianera2076]

This is very true

[@Aezons]

Thanks i Learn alot from you and I'm enjoy the Game more

[@frank6013]

Archer players always tuck into choke points and if they have any meatshield at all in front of them rc cant touch them.. extremely difficult for norse to deal with archers in real games

[@BertTheHulk]

Great video, great insight. Is het original video of EGC of this match still available? Would be nice to be able to find "the source" in the video description.

[@IamMagicAOM]

Check out boits stream, this is for the wrath of the gods tournaments

[@30Salmao]

One idea for the Excel: The Excel stats table at the beginning could have: dps/(cost*pop) I think this "dps/cost" is a important stat until you get in the late game max pop high income, then "dps/(cost*pop)" is more important.

[@30Salmao]

In the raiding cav vs chariots test you did maybe would be nice to see how much a heavy cavalry vs champion chariot does to the balance.

[@caioferraz5809]

Very good analysis, id like to know now, what Rapl has to say, thatd be interesting

[@Yordlehammer]

I think a nerf in speed by just 0.1 or 0.2 could be worth a try in the next patch.

[@matchi1275]

Youre the goat of AOM

[@0RAND0MNESS0]

I love your content and good explanation, please do Thor age up guide magic i need guidance also army suggestions ❤️❤️

[@JD-dg1kj]

This is a very good map for chariots.

[@jobodvr8338]

waiting for video about Automatons being OP

[@IamMagicAOM]

🤐

[@GARGANTUANMASKEDFISH]

"well if we look at their cost-to-effectiveness ratio we of course need to double everything because Automatons can patch themselves up for free, making them the most effective unit in the game..."

[@familiatrup]

Hi Magic, thank you. Very nice content as always. I have a doubt, what are we supposed to do when norse cast Fimbulwinter? Ring the bell and have no economy for some time? retreat and kill the wolves? Thank you!

[@IamMagicAOM]

Unfortunately it’s the only way! Just ring that bell and survive to fight another day

[@Sone01TheFirst]

In my experience, don't put your eco next to your TCs when reaching Mythic age, the only thing that should be in danger are caravans, and good wall placement can minimize that. That or place 1 or 2 heroes around each TC. Fimbul can be pretty weak as a mythic Age power against any player that's expecting it.

[@AristotelisMelas]

I don't want to see the game go toward a 'don't let them get there' meta. The prominence of archer balls in general, not just chariots, needs to be adressed imo. Perhaps a pierce armor buff for cavalry across the board. Then crenellations can be buffed with a bigger multiplier vs cav, to stop cav (contarius mostly) from being just tickled when diving your main.

[@codyestes6596]

Literally anything gets good on eggy: MUST BE BROKEN

[@itswakkowarner]

How would you compare the difficulty level between Retold and AoE 4? Also, what do you prefer about AoM?

[@IamMagicAOM]

I think aoe4 is more mechanically intensive but aom is more strategical

[@legend374]

i always thought of balistic as game killing issue imo cav while moving should be dodging 95% of arrows , it makes micro bit more important , that's real issue , you can dodge in original as long as unit above 5.5 speed , even husk can for a bit , but in retold balistic made death balls existant in retold , not only egy got death ball , atty got the strongest of them which is contarius and charobalista + arcus + fire seiphons , there was nerf to balistics accuracy but didn't have time to test how much that improved dodging.

[@lashonawaldmeister1111]

it always hurts a bit to watch so many units trickle in one by one and die for basically free, I feel like that's so many wasted resources too

[@tobuu2326]

Take 4 raiding cav and snack that pharaoh while his army is elsewhere

[@bananatheseus4516]

What if they give Jarls +0.2 speed and 1.5x antyCav... that may help Norse vs eggy migdol and give us reasons to actualy train Jarls

[@IamMagicAOM]

I think Jarls should start with a small multiplier vs myth units

[@Bambabah]

@@IamMagicAOM yes please!

[@Ninakoru]

Chariot archers are both cavalry and ranged unit, so raiding cavalry counters them no problem. Huskarl only counter melee cavalry. Chariots are the only "strong" unit egypt has, maybe also elephants but lack mobility. The thing with chariot, specially with bone bow are quite oppressive if played well, stutter stepping and using choke points, also garrison in/out migdols to reposition. Totally agree on your conclusion/take.

[@jasonsmith1950]

Huskarls are anti-ranged units, not anti-cavalry, with high pierce armor, low hack armor, and bonus damage against ranged units. They would take the bonus damage multiplier from the chariots, but that isn't a very large multiplier, so I think they're still taking less damage than the raiding cavalry are. So if the Huskarls can engage, they'd still deal with chariots just fine. However, huskarls are the same speed as chariot archers while raiding cavalry are faster.

[@MrLakislazopoulos]

Osiris camel riders are powerful too. War elephants are powerful too Ptah+horus axemen can even beat contarius. Ptah +horus spearmen are powerful anticavalry units that are also generalists. All their myth units are powerful. Priests have 22 range true damage. Catapults are the strongest siege. Siege towers are powerful as well. What is this crap about only chariots being strong?

[@Ninakoru]

​@@jasonsmith1950 Sorry I was thinking of hirdman!! Anyways my point is, raiding calvary is the proper answer, huskarls are better against arcus or toxotes, as they cannot kite so easily.

[@Ninakoru]

First, I am talking about the base unit, all gods have great unit combos and upgrades. I said elephants are powerful too, but too slow. Eggy units are still quite useful because they're cheap/fast, but are low hp and extremely susceptible to AoE. They also have the worst MUs overall probably. The thing is, chariot is powerful and fast, also weak with double category weakness, but if you use them properly are an incredibly oppressing tool, and they deal big damage against anything but hard counters.

[@MrLakislazopoulos]

@@Ninakoru i dont agree with you at all. I dont think egyptian muth units are any less powerful than others civs. And ptath+horus axemen can beat any variation of contarius while completely annihilating infantry. They even beat Ares hypaspists by about 10-15%. You dont think that this unit is strong? All their units are strong actually depending on minor god choices. Its just that chariots are even stronger and are overshadowing everything else.

[@Schmuutzigg]

I think they are really strong but just nerfing them to be in check will surely make egypt less competitive, will have to find a compensating buff that is enough to keep egypt a similar playstyle (without them just kiting with chariot archer mass).

[@martinaguirre8688]

How long untill the Chinese update guys?

[@IamMagicAOM]

I think January

[@martinaguirre8688]

​@@IamMagicAOM thank u! I took alil break but I'm going to get back Into it this month there's just no game like it I miss it

[@itswakkowarner]

When Magic uses them on ladder they are.

[@xDBooN]

If anything was too powerful that game it was Valley of Kings (even with the 1 tc mythic not being viable anymore I think it might give too much value, even when getting there in a normal game). Meanwhile CA lost a fight to less upgraded units that were 2k army value down.

[@titusbaum9690]

No. And (realistically) never will be so long as they are both cavalry and archers.

[@itswakkowarner]

Don't nerf my mummies. I need them in Mythic Strike or else my teammates will yell at me.

[@lorenzovrolijk]

I've seen this complaint pop up as well lately and I just don't see it. I've watched 2 replays of ppl I know complaining about this (coincidentally both norse players) and in one the guy is greatly outnumbered and in the other replay there's 4 petsuchos behind the ca ("but I can't reach the petsuchos because of the ca" c'mon man, is that really the issue here? really?).

[@billybob-wx2re]

"i went a little too far with the memes" what is this blasphemy

[@GeorgiaGuidestoned]

Archers in general just way too strong. Every army is just a ball of archers right now. I think they need to give cav more base pierce armor

[@theowlogram888]

What's more surprising than the Norse slacking on pierce armour is their opponent having bronze shield but only copper armour. Even if he spends a lot of time running under TCs/forts hack armour is always the best choice against Norse right?

[@NamerGaming]

YES

[@_gallowmere]

Maybe

[@mihajlohranisavljevic6412]

Again , chariot archers i think are fine, Rapl might be a little salty tbh...

[@JD-dg1kj]

This is just heroic vs mythical age slowly falling behind as it should be. And yes, no archer ball can be countered once it reached critical mass and upgrades. Doesn’t have to be chariots.

[@eaalders628]

This is simply not true, toxotes ball you can surround quite easily if the opponent isn't making hoplites. Arcus ball you can also catch off guard, it's harder for these slower units to find chokepoints or to run to safety, toxotes/arci need a frontline where as chariot archers can just be spammed like this and will still give pure counter units a run for their money. Fighting chariot archers as greek for example is also a miserable experience, I just find the unit super annoying to deal with.

[@Goldenblade14]

I dont recall Chariot archers being called OP in classic, despite them actually being better than Retold's...

[@eaalders628]

You shouldn't just look at dps when it comes to chariot archers, their actual attack number is important too, attack speed is less of a factor when it comes to hit and running which is what chariot archers are good at. Combined with their range and speed, they can find chokepoints and safe spots to attack from quite easily, you don't just look at their stats in a spreadsheet and conclude that they're about equal to toxotes/arci. As a norse player I find myself in a tough situation where I'm getting poked at by a ball of chariot archers and then they run to the safety of migdols/tc's, which with crenellations absolutely destroy my RC. It becomes especially tricky when combined with horus spearmen, the chariots in this video didn't have bone bow, and they weren't protected by horus spearmen. You could say it was Rapl having macro issues, but rapl was winning hard. Rapl was winning and didn't make giant mistakes, yes he should've transitioned into RC sooner, yes TA are absolutely useless vs CA, but TA are necessary against other egyptian comps, they're good against camels and they're good against an infantry frontline. I also can't help but laugh at 8:45, why didn't u cover the chokepoint with chariot archers, the RC just ran in and started surrounding the CA. Not a full surround, but still that fight could've been alot closer if the gap was covered with chariot archers. Also a more realistic situation would've been to create another choke point behind that where the CA could move to incase they were getting caught. I DO think chariot archers are too strong, the fact they counter huskarls pretty easily, the fact that RC are the only real answer and they only soft counter CA and die pretty quickly whenever the CA are micro'd correctly or there's a frontline involved forcing you into TA that in turn get picked off by chariot archers. Sorry if I come off as hostile, but I'm really fucking tired of getting destroyed by eggy spamming wadjets/axemen into CA spam.

[@IamMagicAOM]

Good points !

[@teo9619]

no.

[@matercheff]

na, I like them so It is in my best interest to say no

[@IamMagicAOM]

Haha

[@kenjijohnsonsanzenin3388]

No they're not they reload slow!

[@eaalders628]

Which doesn't matter when they're hit and running between attacks...

[@nathankemmer3891]

where throwing axeman (i have severe brain damage)

[@banana_hammock11]

Nah

[@MilošHranisavljević]

Egiptians are the weakens civilisation in the early game by far so chariot is a nice balance to that IMHO...

[@Shigglett]

lmaooooo

[@matthiasvancauteren3107]

Norse who rush down everyone when an enemy manages to survive and beat them in the lategame: NERF PLS

[@matthiasvancauteren3107]

Just buff Huskarls is probably the best idea here. If you touch any other unit the Norse are just going to become even stronger at early game rushes. Jarls are also in kind of a weird spot withouth Ringgiver. I guess that is the biggest problem with Norse, their strongest military units are the ones you can get in the classical age.

[@BVasquezp]

Eggy has overall the best support units in the game, held back by the worst frontliners. If elephants or spearmen get buffed, perhaps then chariots should be nerfed.

[@MrLakislazopoulos]

Elephants buff? To what extent? To beat even counter cavalry? Because they are destroying everything else at the moment

[@BVasquezp]

@@MrLakislazopoulos Unit by unit perhaps, but they are rarely cost effective at anything. Thot carries elephants because of his insane macro boosts, but you will rarely if ever see them work otherwise.

[@MrLakislazopoulos]

@@BVasquezp well, any time you see them, they are dominating. You dont see them much because they are slow, but if the game goes late and you need slow push, siege etc, then you will see them and they will dominate. Thoth in particular makes them have the same cost as prodromos, and they have 4 population. You want to buff this unit? Ra elephants with +15% hp is powerful as well. No, thats not a unit that needs a buff.