Air Cooled Vs Water Dropped Bullets

A simple demonstration of the difference in ductility of air cooled vs water dropped lead alloy bullets, both made from the same recycled lead wheel weights.

[@dumpsterfire6351]

Perfect No bs opinions Just a perfect example of a certain wheel weight alloy test. Thanks

[@314299]

Thanks for the feedback.

[@Huntinggearguy]

Water dropping cast bullets in a 5 gallon pail is so convenient. It'll store tons of bullets, no hot bullets to scorch your arms, and the added hardness is nice.

[@314299]

I mostly do it for the added hardness it gives. The harder bullets make loading to higher velocity more attainable, provided the bullet is a good fit.

[@russhayes4882]

Great demo !

[@314299]

Thanks. It was a simple one.

[@BasicallyWorking]

Hey man! I really like watching your videos, keep up the hard work!

[@314299]

Thanks.

[@GunFunZS]

Good demo. I find that heat treating entire batches at once gives substantially more hardness. Also much more consistency between samples.

[@darylsapergia3663]

Exactly, however dropping them straight from the mould, carefully not to splash water into the melt, will usually give hardness variations from about 3 or 4 points brinel. This may be critical in small calibres, but I've found in .45 and .50's to not make much difference in accuracy, at all. It certainly makes them harder than Linotype. I've driven .375's at 2,700fps with 1 1/2 MOA accuracy, using LBT Blue lube as well, with hardened bullets.

[@miketreen7403]

Great demonstration 👍🏻

[@314299]

Thanks.

[@reloader7sixtwo]

Thats a great bullet, I shoot it a lot in both my SKS and Mosin rifles with excellent accuracy. Do you powder coat? if so try casting that same bullet for 50% pure lead / 50% COWW, powder coat and quench those bullets right out of the toaster oven, gas check and size and let them sit for two week to age harden. They will be the same consistency as the ACWW bullets but the polymer jacket will allow you to shoot the bullet at a much higher velocity. I've been shooting my NOE 30 XCB bullet cast for the above alloy and gas checked and powder coated to 2300 fps. in my 30-06 with excellent accuracy using H-4198.

[@kf4293]

Interesting. What's your twist on that rifle?

[@Thorsaxe777]

This may be a little off subject, I knew a dude that was a trapper and for the larger animals that would get in his sets dispatching them with a .22 most of the time wasn't vary humane. anyway, he developed a cast bullet round for his 30-30 and that did the job every time. He used that lee 150 gr mold with 12 grs of Reddot. He liked the cast bullet with the mild loading because it wouldn't damage the pelt and at close range it was very effective. I know what you are saying, I feel that folks can make a bullet too hard, it has to obturate at low pistol pressures, I believe that adds to the accuracy if you just let them air cool. anyway, that is my two cents. Good demonstration. -Dave

[@wildrangeringreen]

They're supposed to be groove sized, generally, with cartridge guns. That .001" or less doesn't take much force to get the bullet to swell and seal it. To paraphrase what Sir Samuel Baker always stated, concerning firearms: "the gun/loading has to match your intended quarry, and the bullet needs to be made to work in the gun and have acceptable effect on the target." He had several different mixes of alloy he used (even back in the BP days) for his different guns, everything from a 10 bore rifle (which shot a 3 oz bullet (hardened with HG and SB) over 16 drams (430gr) of powder) all the way down to little .32 "rabbit rifles" (75gr bullets (trace amounts of tin) and 10gr of powder).

[@Zzoro1987]

Perfect video 👌👌

[@314299]

Thanks.

[@yevgenz]

I have read somewhere that the effect of quenching the lead passes away in a couple of weeks, and the bullets will become soft again, is that a fact?

[@314299]

The wheel weight alloy contains lead with small amounts of arsenic and antimony in it. When cast with quite hot alloy and water dropped the bullets actually gain hardness for about the first month, then very slowly get slightly softer over time. The decrease in hardness over several years is not really significant. I prefer to develop loads with bullets that are at least a month old as they are mostly stable in hardness at that point.

[@joshawageorge2122]

Hi I was just wondering if you ever tried to quench those bullets with light oil in which will quench and lube at the same time ( three in one oil works decent

[@314299]

Nope, never tried that. I dont think it would work very well to harden the bullets as oil does not conduct/absorb heat the same way as water. As for "lubricating" the bullets oil would be entirely too thin to stay on the bullets.

[@roleymarx3811]

Thank you for the great video. I have a question, what if the water was heated, say almost to boiling temperature and dropped into it to cool / quench? How would that effect the brittleness of the bullet?

[@314299]

My understanding of the effect of the water temperature on the bullet hardness is that the water should be "cool", never getting hotter than you could comfortably put your hand in. The hardening effect is presumably reduced if the water is close to the boiling point, presumably the bullet turns the almost boiled water to steam which is not as good a coolant as water.

[@roleymarx3811]

Thank you for the reply.

[@texasbradley]

Maybe I will stop dropping them in water because I want my 300 blk 225 gr HP bolts to mushroom upon impact. These are subsonic so 950-1000 fps certainly won't mushroom a super hard alloy mix. Great video!

[@314299]

At those sorts of speeds you should be just fine with air cooled bullets.

[@danpos1971]

Thanks! Good information. Any idea where to buy moulds in Canada?

[@314299]

Lots of places used to have them in stock but lately most are sold out. Higginson Powders, X-Reload, Western Metals and many other places list them for sale.

[@danpos1971]

Rusty Wood Trading Post had just the mould I was looking for. I love that store :)

[@RussellHoughton]

I shot some water dropped and some air cooled powder coated bullets into wood a few years ago and the water dropped bullet punched right through but the air cooled ones acted just like soft point hunting bullets.

[@314299]

A friend and I did similar tests with cast 357 magnum fired from a 20" carbine, shooting into the end grain of large blocks of wood and then spliiting them to find how deep the air cooled penetrated vs the water dropped. From what I recall the water dropped went twice as deep with minimal deformation compared to the air cooled that expanded considerably.

[@Nimbus1954]

Very interesting that lead becomes so brittle when cooled in water. It may not be an advantage if you have a desire for deformation if the bullet is to be used for hunting. I understand that you want a relatively hard bullet to avoid lead fowling in the barrel, but what about trying to cool in oil instead? Steel is often cured in oil rather than water, otherwise it will become too brittle. Just a thought :-)

[@stclairstclair]

Nimbus1954, I don't think you're going to get so hard that these bullets will fracture on impact, I still think penetration and performance would be better than soft lead.

[@Je3perscre3pers]

Question. I water drop my pure lead bullets and the gas checks become rounded from shrinking. Would putting tin or linotype in it fix the shrinking problem? Granted it only happens in my 45 molds, i tried heating the mould up to see if its that and its iust when i drop it in water.

[@reloader7sixtwo]

Water quenching has no effect on pure lead other than just cooling the bullet off quicker. You need a percentage of Antimony in the mix for water quenching to harden it further, slight variations in hardness can occur during water quenching just by the temperature of the water and the time the bullet is cast and it hits the water so a consistent casting cadence is important for consistency. Arsenic in small amounts also found in wheel weight alloy .etc. is a grain structure refiner, the finer the grain structure of the bullet metal the harder or higher BHN the bullet becomes after it's allow to age harden. Arsenic allows further hardening of lead/ antimony based bullet using the heat treating process usually around 1/4 of 1% is all that is needed. Tin can be used to harden pure lead but the effect is minimal, it's much better suited for lower the surface tension of your lead based alloy which helps with mold fill out. All cast lead bullets shrink to some degree softer alloys and larger dia. bullets will show the most shrinkage.

[@Je3perscre3pers]

@@reloader7sixtwo thank you that was a perfect answer to my question (:

[@reloader7sixtwo]

@@Je3perscre3pers There are several forums dedicated to casting and shooting cast lead bullets Cast Boolits and the Cast Bullet Association are just two of those. Another good reference site is www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm lots of good information and reading there as well.

[@regsparkes6507]

SO now, what would these two bullets do when fired into a a target,..I mean how do they perform? I ask because I know nothing at all about casting bullets or re-loading either for that matter, but I'd like to learn.

[@314299]

That of course depends on what sort of target they hit. The airdropped bullets will, depending on impact velocity, expand and deform if they hit a moderately tough target and will "splat" if they hit something hard. The water dropped bullets will generally punch clear thru a moderately hard target and will shatter if they hit a something hard. For most use this does not matter as most of us are shooting targets at a range, it's more how the bullets behave in a barrel that matters, the harder bullets will tolerate a lot more velocity and RPM's without failing.

[@regsparkes6507]

@@314299 Ah yes, I can see that now.The differences are considerable, much like a full metal jacketed bullet as compared to a soft point I imagine. Thanks for the reply.

[@Truecrimecommunity]

So if one wanted to make an explosive projective they would use water, and if one is wanting FMJ Let them Air cool? Would that be a good assumption ?

[@314299]

Not quite - water dropped WW alloy bullets are certainly harder than those not water dropped, but they don't "explode" when they hit a regular target. If shot at steel they will shatter, but generally they just plow into most things and occasionally break into a couple chunks. A FMJ bullet is much tougher and will penetrate more. A non heat treated lead bullet is much more likely to deform and "mushroom", depending on the impact velocity.

[@entity9742]

So ive got some stockpile of lead and it seems to flow well but i think its got zinc contamination to it ad its not casting with that silverish shine to it Or is it the tin that gives it the shine due to it making it flow better?

[@314299]

If you had zinc contamination your alloy would be completely unusable for casting. Tin will certainly improve alloy flow, but the big difference between shiny and dull looking bullets seems to be the temperature that you are casting at. Shiny bullets are no advantage IMO, other than in a cosmetic sense. I cast hot with wheel weights and that solves most issues for me.

[@entity9742]

@314299 yes but with the dull sheen its casts out with its also forming pits in the metal castings so wouldn't that affect the bullet trajectory?

[@nicknorris3454]

What do you think would be the difference if you cooled them in oil vs water?

[@314299]

I expect they would be a lot softer if dropped in oil as they would not cool as rapidly as they would when dropped in water.

[@RyeOnHam]

I wonder how directly this translates to leading in the bore?

[@yevgenz]

Leading is mostly attributed to hot gas overflow, when bullets are a bit undersized. Notice the fact that there is no leading in .22 LR since the bullet is skirted and allows no gas overflow. In my club in Poltava, Ukraine (then the USSR), some СМ-2 barrels stood millions of rounds without significant loss of accuracy.

[@nrainfidelforlife]

I'm curious if the water quenched bullet would leave less lead fouling. Seems like it.

[@slowhand1198]

Interesting test. I water quench my casts for all but black powder type cartridges. Haven't gotten around to rigging up for powder coating, but hate cleaning leaded bores. With proper sizing, don't really feel the need.

[@314299]

With properly sized bullets of the correct hardness I dont have an issue with leaded bores. I water drop all my rifle bullets and auto pistol bullets, but air cool my low velocity revolver projectiles. I recently gave powder coating a try as it can increase the diameter of bullets when it is required.

[@slowhand1198]

Increasing bullet diameter with the powder coat is interesting. How much can you reasonably expect to add on?

[@314299]

@@slowhand1198 With the TL358-158- 2R the bullets were .361 after powder coating, making them suitable for .38 S&W. I think the tumble lube design bullet might hold more powder coat than a standard design, so I'm guessing you could add a couple thousand of an inch to a regular bullet.

[@slowhand1198]

Thanks, that's valuable info. The worst leading problem I've been getting is in an Australian issue Victory model in .38 S&W. Guess I'll look into the powder coating a bit more.

[@texasbradley]

Once you powder coat you won't ever go back. It's so easy to just get a toaster oven , static charge the powder on them with swirling them in a plastic container. Simply bake at 350-400 degrees and I usually drop them in water after I break them apart. Resize after and store. Total buy in for powder coat should be 20-30 bucks for a used oven and some columbia powder

[@chevy6299]

Stopped worrying about hardness when powder coating solved my leading problem in my pistols. Never had leading in the rifle but those Lee bullets shoot great with powder coating.

[@patrickliston9595]

He didn't mention anything about leading. Maybe he was concerned with terminal performance.

[@Passportbro33Mark2]

What powder coat do you use?

[@sahmadi1000]

I wonder what would be the difference in BHN air versus water cooled? From your experiment it looks like it would be a big difference.

[@314299]

Air cooled wheel weights are said to be 9 to 12 BHN while water quenched ones run over 20 to 30 BHN.

[@patsmith1783]

I use a LBT BHN tester , I get around 12 bhn for air cooled clip on wheel weights and 20bhn for water quench .

[@pareloader5989]

What do you think the Bhn is of the water quenched bullet?

[@314299]

Air cooled wheel weights are said to be 9 to 12 BHN while water quenched ones run over 20 to 30 BHN.

[@pareloader5989]

@@314299 thank you for getting back to me. This helps a lot!

[@captainnemo2150]

So what's better water or air?

[@Michaelmarcjohnfrost]

I wonder about the same question? I will ask...

[@fuzztfork8]

When a video is over 11 seconds, you at least get room for a commerical.. Let that be a lesson to Scott....

[@jungleno.]

Been using range scrap to cast air cooled 124g tc 9 mm and 148g 38 special dewc bullets. Lee liquid Alox tumble lube. Absolutely no problem with leading. However the bullets Illustrated in the video are the same ones I've cast air cooled from wheel weights for my SKS and AK. I have to say, I got extreme leading on the gas piston of my AK to the point where the Piston got stuck in the gas tube. I'll try powder coating them next time.

[@314299]

Some gas ports are drilled poorly leaving burrs that scrape lead off the bullet, those rifles generally will never do well with a lead bullet of any sort. Your issue could also be just an undersized bullet, powder coating will add a couple thousands to the size of the bullet and might cure the problem. I guess you will find out when you try it.

[@tires2burn]

I slugged both my AK & SKS to know what to size to. I size after PC.

[@KasperRung]

Hardness is not the same as brittleness. Do you have a hardness tester?

[@314299]

I disagree, the two are directly related in bullets. Yes, I have a Lee hardness tester.

[@KasperRung]

@@314299 This guy seems to think there is a difference: forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/showthread.php/3363-Casting-Bullet-Hardness?p=21135&viewfull=1#post21135 Lyman #2 can allegedly be hard but not so brittle.

[@sahmadi1000]

I wonder if water cooled shrinks the bullet more?

[@314299]

There is no difference in the size of air cooled vs water dropped bullets. The bullet has solidified in the mold prior to being taken out so the dimensions are already established.

[@jamespollard1670]

There's is a big difference . I water quench my cast rifle rounds .

[@Michaelmarcjohnfrost]

So which is better... Air or Water and why?

[@314299]

Neither is by itself better or worse. Hard bullets are generally preferred for higher velocity rifle bullets as they are stronger and less likely to strip the rifling, they are also better for bullets for semi auto pistols as they withstand the beating they take during feeding from the mag to chamber. Air cooled bullets are generally better for lower velocity revolver bullets as the bullets can still have some expansion potential.

[@Michaelmarcjohnfrost]

@@314299 Thanks that makes perfect sense... I am casting only for odd ball calibers like 44-40, 45-70 and other custom cartridges all using black powder in mostly antique guns like Winchester 1873 and 1886. As the bullet heads are used in feeding maybe they should be water cooled? Or should I air cool because the rifling in the barrels may be weaker than modern guns? Your thoughts please...

[@goranmalnar5172]

What is the diference in Brinels????

[@314299]

I dont have a BHN hardness tester but air cooled wheel weights are said to be 9 to 12 BHN while water quenched ones run over 20 to 30 BHN.

[@carlosreyes6448]

Seems like the air cool, would mushroom, and water drop would be more like an fmj.

[@314299]

The air cooled might expand, depending on impact velocity. Air cooled wheel weight bullets are still considerably harder than the soft pure lead that jacketed hunting bullet cores are made of.

[@Gungeek]

kinda the same with frosty bullets.

[@314299]

You can get bullets to a very brittle level of hardness when the alloy is really hot and they are water dropped. Fine for target shooting but not so good as a hunting bullet.

[@reloader7sixtwo]

@@314299 Besides water quenching you can heat treat bullets that have a small amount of Arsenic in the lead such as clip on wheel weights. Heat treated bullets will give a move consistent BHN over a longer period of time once the bullet age harden out at two to three weeks. A good read on the various aspects of heat treating cast lead bullets www.lasc.us/HeatTreat.htm

[@frustratedmajority851]

Should try ice water

[@314299]

Ice water would give exactly the same results as warm water. As long as the water is not boiling hot it gives the same results.

[@adammullen9990]

Hi Shawn would you be interested in these SiBRRa 25 CAL .257 DIA 120 GR. HOLLOW POINT BOAT TAIL 1650 SARRA Two box’s for sale or trade

[@314299]

I'll pass on those as I dont have anything that shoots .257" size bullets.

[@exodortch]

Would have been nice to see the crystal size in the softer bullet

[@314299]

I suppose but it did not break clean off like the hard bullet did.

[@JohnLloydScharf]

You confused hardness with brittleness.

[@314299]

With lead alloy bullets the two go hand in glove, especially with heat treated/quenched WW alloy bullets. I've never seen a hard lead bullet that was also not brittle as well.

[@RehanTambawa]

Buamalpekealmenium

[@314299]

I have no idea what that word means, or even what language it is from.