Alesis Was Just Ordered To Pay Roland $4,600,000: Here's Why

InMusicBrands, the parent company of Alesis was ordered to pay Roland millions of dollars. The story behind it is long and complicated. In this video, we'll cover the history of Roland lawsuits against drum companies, and who invented mesh heads/positional sensing.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So after making this video, I started getting messages from people in the industry. Don't take it all as gospel, but here's some stuff they said:
"The Roland action against InMusic was probably for the cymbal rotation stopper and possible “step mute sensor” patent. Hi-hat patent could also enter into these earlier actions too."
"The ddrum pads didn't use FSR (I’ve got them here and they definitely have a central piezo - I don’t know where that description comes from but there’s no FSR). They worked off a single central piezo underneath a reflection plate. The angle of the transient attack was used to determine how far from the central piezo the hit was. ddrum also used PS on their cymbal pads on the Ddrum 4/SE. OK, so they didn’t look like cymbals, but they definitely worked."
"Roland ONLY took out these mesh patents in the US and Japan. They did not take out mesh patents in any other territory. Anyone else could make a mesh kit and sell it anywhere, apart from the US or Japanese markets but no one did because everyone believed it was a global patent - lawyers were less used in the industry back then and everyone was less patent savvy."
"I understand Yamaha were intending on releasing the DTXtreme 1 with mesh, but with Mylar heads in the US and Japan, but it became too much of a head ache, and Roland threatened to tie them up for 7 years anyway sorting it out even though technically Yamaha were in the right. Both being Japanese companies, they settled with a gentlemanly agreement. However, the DTXtreme 1 manual explained how to use mesh on the kit and provided a special piece of foam to be used with mesh heads."
"A clever guy in Germany apparently patented mesh heads (in Germany only) around the release of the TD10 so that Roland had to pay him a fee for every Roland kit sold in Germany as they hadn’t patented it in Germany."
LINKS:
Timeline of events:
5mag.net/news/roland-patent-s...
Roland Sues Inmusic:
www.bloomberg.com/press-relea...
Inmusic sues Roland:
www.synthtopia.com/content/20...
Reason for Inmusic Lawsuit:
digitaldrummermag.com/2022/12...
Boring Court Documents:
casetext.com/search?q=Roland%...
1903 Mesh Head Patent:
patentimages.storage.googleap...
Pintechs Thoughts On The Mesh Head Patent In 2010:
issuu.com/digitaldrummer/docs...
Roland Sues Hart Dynamics:
insight.rpxcorp.com/litigatio...
insight.rpxcorp.com/litigatio...
Roland Sues Wirges:
casetext.com/case/roland-corp...
The history of Roland:
articles.roland.com/redefinin...
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0:00 Intro

[@65Drums]

CORRECTIONS AND EXTRA INFORMATION: So after making this video, I started getting messages from people in the industry. So I cut out a few snippets of the video. Here are some of their thoughts: (Don't take it all as gospel, but here's some stuff they said) "The Roland action against InMusic was probably for the cymbal rotation stopper and possible “step mute sensor” patent. Hi-hat patent could also enter into these earlier actions too." "The ddrum pads didn't use FSR (I’ve got them here and they definitely have a central piezo - I don’t know where that description comes from but there’s no FSR). They worked off a single central piezo underneath a reflection plate. The angle of the transient attack was used to determine how far from the central piezo the hit was. ddrum also used PS on their cymbal pads on the Ddrum 4/SE. OK, so they didn’t look like cymbals, but they definitely worked." "Roland ONLY took out these mesh patents in the US and Japan. They did not take out mesh patents in any other territory. Anyone else could make a mesh kit and sell it anywhere, apart from the US or Japanese markets but no one did because everyone believed it was a global patent - lawyers were less used in the industry back then and everyone was less patent savvy." "I understand Yamaha were intending on releasing the DTXtreme 1 with mesh, but with Mylar heads in the US and Japan, but it became too much of a head ache, and Roland threatened to tie them up for 7 years anyway sorting it out even though technically Yamaha were in the right. Both being Japanese companies, they settled with a gentlemanly agreement. However, the DTXtreme 1 manual explained how to use mesh on the kit and provided a special piece of foam to be used with mesh heads." "A clever guy in Germany apparently patented mesh heads (in Germany only) around the release of the TD10 so that Roland had to pay him a fee for every Roland kit sold in Germany as they hadn’t patented it in Germany." This one isn't a quote, the some claim the Hart Dynamics won a counter lawsuit against Roland. I have not confirmed this. I'm done going down this rabbit-hole, but feel free to go look for yourself.

[@360.Tapestry]

love that bit about the german guy lol

[@EasyHeat]

I assume LEmon Brand is about to get sued. Better stock up while you can!

[@joeyvanostrand3655]

But what about the inevitable appeals?

[@tommymandel3326]

here's another one (which took ME years to get right:) LicenSe - since it's in a picture (with the typewriter) auto-correct didn't 'see' it.

[@AmauryJacquot]

the real issue here is patents are stupid.

[@anthonyhuerta3432]

This reminds me of the biggest issue with Marching Drums. For example, everyone that I know HATES using Randall May harness (drum carriers). The problem is that they hold the patents and make it almost virtually impossible for ANY company to make a drum carrier without some type of licensing or infringement. It’s pretty tough on music programs as their hardware costs THE MOST compared to their competitors and are NOTORIOUS for their issues. Super unfortunate for students and music programs.

[@robertlucas9867]

Can you explain further? I remember when Premier Drums first introduced the free floating marching snare. Yamaha early inventions of it was actually Premier drums when they owned them for a short time but when Premier became more popular in USA, Yamaha dropped the company hurting sales and distribution and Yamaha had to change the design to be less obvious it was Premier. Premier, Pearl and Yamaha had their own harnesses and I never heard of Randall May harness back in the 90’s so I’m confused when this started.

[@SoCalCommuter]

Wow... Great video man-- It feels like the real winners in all of this are the LAWYERS.

[@ApolloVIIIYouAreGoForTLI]

You bet ya... $46 mil is nothing to Roland Corp & I wouldn't be shocked if it all went to legal fees.

[@jtat61]

Aren't they always..

[@publicprofilename4273]

and Roland of course... asshats.

[@MortonLuvz2drum]

Yeah. This has very little to do with drumming, except that yet one more company is getting slammed by Roland. Roland, the Walmart of music instruments.

[@360.Tapestry]

the cost always trickles down to the consumer. thanks, obama

[@KellyDodson]

Excellent video! I appreciate the time you spent researching the case history. It’s fascinating to get a glimpse of the corporate power struggle. I had no idea mesh heads date back so far.

[@vanessamonster5038]

So roland sued the smaller companies, who didn't have enough cash to adequately defend themselves,, got some precedents and then went after Alesis. Knowing that the designs were so similar to Roland, I feel better about my Alesis Nitro Mesh.

[@Kori-ko]

I'm so upset I didn't pull the trigger on the Alesis Nitro Mesh earlier. Now I can't find them anywhere.

[@korndud]

yeah roland is like apple....trash. most large companies are.

[@darrellstyner0001]

Great overview. I had no clue about any of this. Thanks for your hard work!

[@fVNzO]

I guess the "funniest" thing about the whole Roland mesh head debacle is that they didn't actually bother advancing them up until the digital snare (and still haven't rolled out better heads for their 10/12 inch drums) which effectively meant that in the 2010's+ they were fairly middle of the pack in terms of drum feel. I think Roland now has the best mesh heads in the digital snare and floor tom, but other people had made superior triple ply heads for a decade before Roland. Basically, I'm just very astounded by the lack of innovation in arguably the most important aspect of a digital drum kit - the feel of hitting the drum. That being nothing like a "real" kit with Rolands two ply heads that by all accounts are tiny trampolines. And lately they've given us slimmer cymbals, which goes a long way to get it closer to acoustic stuff. But 25... 30 years is what it took them to go from thick cymbals and 2 ply heads to the "revolutionary", 3 ply and get this: cymbals that aren't an inch thick? That's really something.

[@katmckool]

Honestly, I have always loved the "trampoline" feel of the mesh heads, but I agree that they need to keep innovating. I just hope they don't stop making mesh heads even as they come up with newer technology. Not everyone wants them to feel exactly like real drums. They are their own thing.

[@fVNzO]

@@katmckool I want them to be exactly like real drums if possible because I play edrums because i don't have the option to play acoustic. Hopefully they innovate in both directions. I still think there's a lot of room to improve, particularly with loosening the heads, and keeping triggering precision. Right now roland are quick to advertise how easy it is to "tune" them to your liking but in the real world there's very little difference in feel honestly and the triggering takes a hit if you try to get less bounce (or you risk damaging the triggers alltogether).

[@publicprofilename4273]

Wrong, they have updated some, maybe not 10's and 12's, not sure if there are PDX pads those sizes? But boy they sure have "updated" the 8's and 6's on those pads. To a proprietary deal, with an intigrated plastic rim, meaning it has to be bought from roland, and they charge astronomical, dry run, no lube money for em. Wanna stick it to em for that? I did lol. I take the PDX rim after I need a new head on it, get a sharpie, and draw a cut line inside and out, can't remember the mm, but I leave about 1.5mm under the lug holes, cut whatever under that line off, and the mesh out, and I have a low profile rim and can put whatever head I want on the pad, and it has the same profile as before. Now if you do this, things to note. THey are plastic, and you'll end up with a build up of melted plastic around your cut. No biggie, just use side cutters ever so often to cut away the excess, and at the end, you'll need to sand the whole thing, to get rid of any jegged or sharp protrusions, but it doesn't have to be surgical precise, as it's not accoustic. You really just wanna get it fairly close to level by eye, and smooth, that's good enough.

[@fVNzO]

@@publicprofilename4273 All of rolands two ply heads are more or less identical to the ones they used 25 years ago.

[@publicprofilename4273]

@@fVNzO so they've always been integrated with a plastic rim, as a one piece rim/head unit? I don't remember ever seeing that til the pdx pads came out. Guess I could be wrong though but I don't think so.

[@erikolsen1333]

Roland fan boy here, I’m from the synth guitar world . I have a Roland spdsx , messed around with some mesh head triggers. I had no idea how deep this ran. In the 2010’ I almost bought an Alisisis set. But when with the spdsx because Roland was so well known for quality.

[@3rdGen-Media]

Roland would patent the #2 pencil and call it the theory of relativity if they could get away with it

[@3rdGen-Media]

There is no way Roland's "DSP Percussion Signal Processing Routine" didn't already infringe on other patents in 2001. How is this any different than signals you would need to process for a triple sensor analog keybed press? Following the acronym "DSP" with the words "Signal Processing" is comically redundant

[@jeredalmeida1880]

🤣They're worse than Nintendo!

[@arbogast4950]

@@jeredalmeida1880 but better than Alesis. I've been using both companies products since 1998 and Roland easily slaps Alesis around when it comes to quality. The Strike Multipad is a turd.

[@saxyrep1]

And Roland would overcharge you for it.

[@idiotburns]

That would be fine if they innovated it.

[@selimmarat]

You sir, have created most informative video ever, from engineering and musicianship perspective at the same time. That's hard to achieve. Kudos.

[@scottyg5403]

Great video thank you for clearing that up I have heard about this lawsuit that I wasn't sure of the details.

[@DXCommanderHQ]

The little things in life.. Years ago, I had ONE bolts go missing from my Roland kit. I emailed Roland in UK and they said bolt was pennies PLUS a ton of cash for processing the order. Contrast that with Crown USA. I emailed them telling them a bolt had come missing off an amplifier that was 20 years old. They girl mailed me 8 of the blighters for FREE. I buy Crown gear - JUST FOR THAT :)

[@JaceDrummer]

I am still using my Hart drums I had since 2007. Started with a TD-20 module and currently using a TD-30. My Harts have held up fairly well, I am still on the same mesh heads on most and only had to replace one cymbal, the ride and the HH, amazing. i :) i

[@NetherlordAxenrot]

Hart Dynamics for the win!!! 🤘🔥

[@robertlucas9867]

Great video and research. I knew Roland wasn’t first with mesh heads and triggers but I didn’t know the mesh heads go back to 1903. I know someone else had a mesh/trigger design in the 70’s also before Roland but didn’t patent it. I think the patent Roland had was intentionally written in conjunction with the cone triggers in a vague way to cover a wide variety of possible lawsuits. I have been noticing this trend in recent years adopted by many companies. Great video again. I hope you are able to drum still.

[@victorpate24]

Honestly, $4.6M is a very low amount for corporate lawsuits, especially for corporations like Roland. I don't know what minor issue is actually the problem... it seems to me that mesh heads, positional sensing, etc, would generate a much larger amount for settlement... ijs

[@johnnycashlesscomedy8616]

My thoughts exactly. What are the legal fees on something like this? Maybe Roland figured out how much profit Alesis actually made ?

[@DidYouReadEULA]

Excellent reporting, thank you!!

[@lobbyrobby]

I had no clue electric drums where that old. I would've guessed in the last decade or so. Excellent video btw. You sure did your homework on this one.

[@PaulBirm]

Thanks for the research- very interesting indeed!!

[@atakdragonfly1675]

Interesting, and very informative sir! "Aaaahhhh!!" Thank you!

[@pjmtry7]

Freakin Awesome info and detailed research! Keep up the Awesome!

[@demonicsweaters]

very interesting! Great job Justin!

[@commonman317]

Man, I feel like Justin was doing a huge homework assignment for a law school class with all of this. Makes your head spin. Good job.

[@65Drums]

That's exactly what It felt like lol

[@jasonhubbard7409]

@@65Drums Yes but you did a great job. You presented the economics of patent laws quite fairly, without bias. Job well done.

[@msyracuse]

@65Drums - Justin, kudos and thanks for being the "Frontline" in your reporting of the drum industry!

[@Drumming-Life]

Outstanding video. Highly informative.

[@applelandry4233]

"Just because I have the patents in front of me does not mean I have the training to accurately interpret them"❤❤❤❤❤. This is the way. I wish more people approached new information in this way.

[@6912305277]

Hi Justin, great video as usual. Might you do a overview of the td 17 version 2 update please.

[@TheFrancoprincipe]

I've not had a look at how much profit either Roland or Alesis make... But 4.6 mi doesn't sound like a serious award for damages for companies like this. I suspect it was a minor infringement... But a strong message.... Thanks Justin. Great video. Also note intrigued about the wireless drums... That sounds exciting (I'll need to do some research now ☺️)

[@RichInternationalAir]

Liked and subscribed, excellent video! Isn't Behringer an industry behemoth? Their xd80usb drums review at 4.5 out of 5 stars (and are very affordable), but I don't know if they utilize mesh heads.

[@FranksDrumCave]

Lots of cool information about the history of mesh heads😀

[@guy990]

Excellent well written script, agree with the conclusions, and it's sad to see big companies like Roland continue their attempt at a monopoly on the edrum industry

[@terrytk9398]

Great research & video.

[@user-bo7np6rn4v]

Wow, Great video 🎉,great channel 👍

[@vadimmartynyuk]

I’m subscribed to Roland cloud for their instrument plug-ins, they have lots of bugs that haven’t been addressed for years.

[@DrummerDudeRon]

Cool video.... Thanks for the info

[@RogersPhotographyGuilford]

Yup had the Hart Mesh kit. Then I went with the Alesis Mylar heads which thoroughly and completely sucked because the strike didn't have any action/bounce. Actually still have the Hart Kit although one head I beat through and some heads need the piezo replaced. Didn't have dual zones but it's still a great kit.

[@seanwalsh999]

I loved the way you tied the whole sad, sorry history of Roland's quest for dominance to their latest acquisition of DW drums for even more market dominance and future litigation. Although there is a business maxim that goes, "Grow or Die" so there is that.

[@publicprofilename4273]

I hate them so much! Poor John. Sure we'll let you stay on, doing exactly what you want, the way you do now. Go off to the rain forest, swamp diving for stumpwood to fly home, and ply out, no problem.... 2 years later. John, we love ya, but we're going a different way now. Sorry to see you retire so soon, but is next friday good to have your office empty? We need the space. Take care pal! A year after that. What happened to DW, Slingerland, PDP, LP, and Grestch? Roland... Roland happened. RIP legends... Thanks John!

[@360.Tapestry]

yeah... or grow just enough to stifle others' growth and then coast but alesis should've been using that time to develop a better alternative, too. and they didn't

[@haraldbackfisch1981]

Does that business maxim follow the same logic as "capitalism breeds innovation"? Because that's just irrefutable....

[@seanwalsh999]

@@haraldbackfisch1981 Well I guess all Maxims, Clichés and stereotypes, must have a grain of truth to them, because that's how they have gotten their longevity. Of course it's the exception that proves the rule. Sorry for the last one, I just couldn't help myself.

[@haraldbackfisch1981]

@@seanwalsh999 don't worry, I just feel a lot of these proverbial things are predicated on a very bend interpretation of humanity, society and economics. Yes they pick up a kernel of truth and then stray from the appropriate analysis, and sry to invoke this, but let's take the recent kanye situation as example. He took a kernel if truth namely the exploitation in the entertainment industry and instead of applying a fully materialist analysis he applied a cultural one which led him to anti-semitism and I hope we can agree that that stereotype is just destructive and in no way appropriate. What I'm getting at is its not the kernel of truth in stereotypes that is important its what you do with it in terms of systematic analysis and action. Also sorry for going off like this I don't think or know if u even need/want to hear this, I just also couldn't help myself :) enjoy your day and the rest of the year! Happy holidays :)

[@CanadianTexaninLiguria]

Does anyone know why the Strike Pro module is no longer for sale?

[@360.Tapestry]

maybe the day will never come, but if roland ever falls, i won't shed a single tear

[@coder4liberty]

Didn't KAT do positional sensing before mesh with the FSR (force sensing resistors) pads?

[@edwardatlee1199]

What I've read, and I'll try to find it, I think this was on the vDrums forum, is that Hart did, in fact, win the rights to sell mesh-head kits in the US without paying Roland, but I think they were limited to single-ply mesh, which is what you'll see on a lot of AcuPads. Apparently, Peter Hart was aware of the "prior art" by SynDrum, and actually started selling mesh-head kits in the US a short time before Roland (maybe on the order of weeks). So Hart was the only company that could sell mesh-head kits without handing over barrels of money to Roland.

[@crazyclownstudioaudio3122]

Great Video - Thanks !

[@covyboyd3132]

Justin, can you do a video comparing the TD 30 and the strike pro SE since you said Its a possible TD 30 killer! Thanks for all your videos keep it up

[@WhyTheHorseface]

Great video, thanks.

[@mannibimmel09]

great research. thank you"

[@Silversmith70]

I am always on the verge of getting the new V-Drums. But then I am like, hey that is a strong down payment on a new truck lol.

[@360.Tapestry]

i'd never buy anything from roland new

[@hydorah]

V-Drums gets you made in China brain and made in Taiwan budget hardware for the price of two luxury USA / European / Japanese acoustic drum sets. V-Drums are the biggest rip-off in music today

[@Silversmith70]

@@hydorah If I knew that I wouldn't buy them. Thank you for that. I need to start checking where my stuff is made instead of assuming.

[@miker5233]

The Simmons sdx had position sensor in on all the drums and symbols that was in 1987

[@davidgoode7416]

Great video, thanks

[@kevinsturges6957]

Everyone should be aware of how Yamaha sued the Beetle Quantar MIDI guitar company out of business back in the 90’s. I bought a prototype Quantar and the tracking was an incredible step forward. Very small company. Yamaha sued them out of existence, came out with one product, then immediately dropped it and buried the sonar string sensing technology. There was apparently another very small company that attempted to put out another midi guitar about 10 years ago. I remember their demo videos were amazing. Just before it was supposed to happen they suddenly disappeared and were never heard from again. That’s really a disgusting practice for progress for the rest of us.

[@reubenk7331]

Very interesting. It sounds like a lot, but as you pointed out, they may have still come out ahead. I understand that patents are important and it protects a company, as well as all that they poured into R&D, but sometimes it seems like splitting hairs.

[@Mystninja]

I had Tama practise mesh heads on my Tama stage star back in 2003.

[@musiqsoundsproductions]

Yamaha/Alesis (and in some way Kat aelectronics too) can sue Roland too now for the SX Pro. Especially in the looks, and Alternate Mode function. Also from what I gathered, the mesh heads patent has been expired for Roland (which is why Yamaha can now use them too).

[@randalscandal1588]

nice work.

[@collinthomas6288]

Imagine all the music that could have been created in the last 20 years if the technology was more accessible. I cherish my DM10, I would have never been able to reason buying a Roland kit.

[@paulussantosociwidjaja4781]

Phew! Thank you, because quite a few brands you mention in the video are parts of our daily chores here. So, Roland will soon get richer being paid by more brands after Alesis (",)

[@360.Tapestry]

a lot of the patents have already ran out and others are close to running out

[@mypetdrgn]

This TOTALLY explains the SPX Pro. I went to Alesis site hoping for an update to strike pad and nothing but crickets and the “get satisfaction” is terminated

[@CrowofJudas]

what aboiut the mesh yamaha heads?

[@KeithronPowell]

Good stuff!

[@matthewstewart5008]

I wander why the mandala pad from synthesis went quiet

[@_oe_o_e_]

Good thing i bought my Alesis Mesh Drums last week

[@sucodecupuacu]

Have you heard any rumors about the strike pro successor? It looks like the strike module has been discontinued

[@Mephiston]

maybe that means strike pros will become a bit cheaper!

[@charliesdrumshed9328]

Well if Roland has all this extra money they should lower their prices lol

[@trusoundlowvolumedrumheads1002]

That $2500 Roland kit costs them probably 300-350 they charge the retailer $1400 retailer charges you 2500.

[@360.Tapestry]

ha that's a good one

[@lescobrandon8045]

I can't figure out why a Jupiter X is $5,000 dollars. I can literally destroy that thing with my laptop.

[@MrBC1959]

Not an ounce of commercial know how among any of you. Go study how R&D+manufactor+supply chain+ sale channel works fools

[@MrKockabilly]

It is so easy for many here to scorn the idea of patenting and eagerness of companies to dominate the market. But imagine a world without patent protection. Surely Roland, or any company, would not spend million of dollars to do technical and material research just for every competitor to immediately benefit as soon as the product hits the market. This would be a world of everyone waiting for the other to do the costly move. And before we knew it, decades have passed and mesh heads would still be non-existent. But of course patent expires, I just wish it would be much shorter.

[@JesusRiveraPercusion]

This is why Roland will kept their prices way to high! No competition. E-drums needs innovation and that goes for ALESIS SIMMONS MILLENIUM etc.

[@WarpedSpeed]

the thought behind patent was to allow the person who developed an original tech/product time to profit from that original idea, what has happened is patent mills where no attempt is made to develop on ideas but to simply profit from someone else developing on an original idea. This has also lead to a world of monopolies were new ideas and produce stagnate

[@dwylhq874]

Thank you for covering this. Roland make great instruments. But patenting ideas doesn’t mean you *invented* it, it just means you have a good legal team that apply for the patents.

[@TylerHNothing]

14:50... oh no

[@angelosasso1653]

What a great video! While I personally use Roland kits for at home and live it is still no gentleman's move here. I even wondered to what happened to some of the older brands like Mark drums, this answers it. Sadly. Now the whole market is basically Roland, a fork of a Roland team as far as I know, Yamaha, Alesis and that's more or less it. All other brands are quite obscure.

[@360.Tapestry]

of course. and as soon as roland caught a whiff of what dw was cooking up, they immediately bought them. no competition is bad for the customer. but i guess corporations are people, too lol

[@trevorwoodley3897]

@@360.Tapestry is it that DW voluntarily sold to Roland, or was it a strong-arm takeover-type deal? Why the hell would Drum Workshop even sell to Roland, though? They must've needed the money.

[@360.Tapestry]

@@trevorwoodley3897 it's a good question. if i was part of dw, i'd want to keep my own independence. but maybe roland made certain guarantees that dw would get the financial, engineering, and manufacturing support it needed to fully implement the wireless technology, while staying out of its way. it could be fully amicable. or they threatened to develop a similar technology and push them to the brink of irrelevance. who knows

[@trevorwoodley3897]

@@360.Tapestry the former scenario seems more likely. Although I never figured Roland to be so aggressive, litigious and acquisitive. Sooner or later someone else other than DW was gonna think of wireless drums; why buy DW? Roland could have come up with their own wireless edrum implementation. There's nothing esoteric nor arcane about wireless tech. It can be applied to most anything.

[@360.Tapestry]

@@trevorwoodley3897 maybe it's the combination of proven wireless technology and the dw brand that made it an irresistible package. or perhaps there's a patent regarding dw's particular implementation that means roland would be behind the ball in terms of designing around it - and maybe roland just wants that patent in its grubby little hands, whether to license it or just to make it hard for competitors to follow a straightforward method. i look to its win over alesis and think: how can you expect someone to do it any other way when that is clearly the best and most efficient way? alesis had to stack foam on plates and add a dial and they still ended up losing because it's hard to get around the basicness of the original design

[@emanresutla]

One thing I don’t believe you covered is the future of Alesis drum kits and how/if they’re likely to change to avoid infringement. If this had been a settlement between the two parties it would likely have included some licensing to the alleged offender (Alesis, in this case) so they can continue to use the patented tech in return for payment. If this was awarded based solely on past damages, then there’s still more to the story forthcoming. Glad I already have the DM10 and they can’t take it back. Maybe it will become a collectors edition. 😂

[@65Drums]

Hey Justin, it's not a problem because the patents already timed out. Alesis only got in trouble because they jumped in a tinny bit too early. So anyone can mesh drums now, patents only last 20 years.

[@emanresutla]

@@65Drums Interesting point - you prob explained that in the video and I missed it. Thanks for clarifying and great work on the research.

[@tjhessmon4327]

Obviously there is some lack of understanding relative to how the corporate world of business works. If Corporation "X" spends their capital (especially if its a publicly traded corporation (like Roland), It must validate that what ever it intends to manufacture and offer for sell, does not violate a standing patented design. The investors would expect the organization to validate patent rights during the design phase. This is usually done during the concept and or modeling phase of the project, rarely making it to the prototype phase. The product design phase is the least expensive phase of any manufacturing project, as it represents the least amount of capital, and labor tied up in the design. The further the project proceeds, the higher the costs relative to that project. ....... All corporations public, or privately held, carry on their Ledger, what are known in the financial world as "Reserves" these are carried for a whole host of items which normally become a liability for the organization, through legal remedy. I'm not saying the liability reserves of In Music Brands is 4.6m. I am simply stating they have cash reserves on hand for such issues. Not to get off in the corporate weeds, but suffice it to say corporations competing against one another, are well aware of patents relative to their products, and aware of the potential liabilities (risks) associated with patent rights infringement. Its the reason so many products are manufactured in China, as that nation does not regard patent rights. Most communist countries don't because the means of production are wholly owned by the state (read Hegel to understand). ...... Since Roland is a publicly traded organization, is responsibility to its shareholders is to secure its patent rights. And that is what it did regarding products Alesis (in Music Brands) was manufacturing and selling. Legal remedy is a funny thing, one might assume there is no probability of loosing a suit it has brought, however that is never the case with legal remedy. its not always cut and dry, which is why in Music Brands legal team fought the case in court against Roland's claims. Further, just because there was a summary judgment in Roland's favor, does not mean the issue is resolved, In Music Brands can seek an appeal. As they say "it aint over till the fat lady sings" ....... The point is; legal product liability is part of normal corporate culture, especially in the arena of electronics design, manufacturing and sales. Try to imagine designing the most perfect drum controller in the entire world, you just completed the design project at a cost of 18 million and you discover the legal team has identified 5 potential patent infringements with your design..... now what? .... Welcome to product Design 101...

[@AtTheSourceStudios]

Roland = big baddie Alesis = our friend 😀

[@SlyHikari03]

lol

[@TreyPuga]

I actually hate Alesis. Their product, unfortunately, continues to be far away from Roland’s technology. The hardware & software both suck.

[@brianfogle2743]

@@TreyPuga at least it's affordable for us poor folk.

[@TheCyberMantis]

I like Roland. Because I like Japan. And because they make great stuff.

[@Trottelheimer]

Don't be fooled. Alesis has the worst support I've encountered in the music business - they are NOT our friends at all. In fact they're one of the most cynical music companies nowadays. They're not even a real company anymore, just a brand under the InMusic umbrella, mostly licensing e-drums from Medeli and refusing to support any of it. The quality is also not good at Alesis. Roland has far better support and are more friendly to customers. Not to mention Roland quality - their gear is among the most well functioning and rugged for musicians. Only Behringer is worse than Alesis IME (nobody has any hope of being as bad/cynical/evil as Behringer).

[@MichaelMoellerTRLInc]

I believe your speculation on the DW acquisition by Roland is probably right on target. If DW's wireless technology is as good as they claim it is, Roland seems to think it is, then it would be a direct threat to Rolands VAD lineup. I believe when you add the DW acquisition with the VH-14D Roland now seems to have a serious lock on what will likely be what pushes e-drums into wider acceptance. It's getting harder to make a case against them as they get closer to parity with acoustic kits.

[@charliesdrumshed9328]

This ridiculous one I don’t see any Alesis kit positional sensing Roland is just scared of the competition it’s just like Samsung and Apple in the phone world they should just help each other like that Samsung makes the oled panels for Apple

[@Trottelheimer]

Samsung is not "helping" apple - very far from it - they're doing business with them to rake in more cash.

[@Wolf359HeavyIndustries]

I can't unsee that there's no ink ribbon in that typewriter.

[@ianhinrichsendrummer2113]

I wonder where this leaves Drum Tec TV with their mesh pads?

[@rebelangel8227]

that would be like the first company that uses fabric material to make a car seat suing everyone who uses fabric for are seat upolstery...some things shouldn't be allowed patents. And now wireless that should also be a public domain thing as welll

[@ArgonautArcade]

Roland is the Apple of edrums 🙄

[@chris135x]

OMG! I was really going to comment something like that. It's funny that I'm not the only one who caught that.

[@djashjones]

For a start Roland supports an SD card and also the software is less buggy than Apple.

[@robertgeddes3965]

Can Simmons sue Roland for using FSR triggering in the new DWe?

[@boblob2003]

Reminds me how Gibson started suing companies a few years ago for a headstock design that's been around since the 1600's.

[@johnmiller4553]

CRAZY

[@lundsweden]

Has'nt Roland V-drums been around since the late 90s? As in 25 years ago! I think its time for competition, Roland innovated, but that was eons ago!

[@mattvdh]

I hate companies that attempt to monopolize a certain technology on the market. Just create new technologies and let the craftsmanship/quality do the talking. If it's truly superior then customers will let you know. I've owned Roland ekits, yamaha and a few others and honestly the roland kits aren't any better. The alesis strike pro is actually one of the best ekits for feel (the ride bell is great and cymbals choke well) and looks a lot cooler.

[@bradmorris5797]

You're asking Roland's R&D divisions to operate without the measurable yields from generated patents? Craftsmanship and quality are the markers of good manufacturing and production processes that have little to do with R&D. But patents ARE the reward for R&D divisions of any major corporation in virtually any industry. If craftsmanship and quality are all that are needed to to produce a great product line, then Roland should scrap its R&D team and simply clone the best products already available on the market. But if the only corporations with the resources to do real research and development are not incentivized to do it via proprietary, patentable technology, then there is no innovation, and upgrades/improvements will come to market at an even slower rate. As easy as it is to vilify big industry players like Roland for industrial territorialism, R&D is expensive and requires a separate measure of success rather than being forced to directly correlate with the company's sales and manufacturing processes. Patents and patent protection are that measure.

[@Jay-ru3hx]

I can appreciate the protection of IP for the simple reason of protecting the reason for developing new tech in the first place. HOWEVER... 20 years is way too long nowadays. I think you should get 1-3 years without question, but in order to maintain a patent, you should have to periodically defend what your business case is for what is essentially forbidding someone else from doing what you did for 20 GD years. The bar for this should be fairly low, but there were so many great ideas in hardware and software over the past few decades that companies only leveraged for a couple years then shelved them. In doing so, they didn't use it, but they also didn't let anyone else use it. Example? Mini games in loading screens on video games. One game dev patents it. The game is popular for months or a year maybe. And they don't use the feature again because it's unoriginal for their next release, but then no one else could do it either for 20 years? At that point, it's really just the lawyers that profit.

[@bradmorris5797]

@@Jay-ru3hx I think what you've proven is that patent lifetimes are arguably contextual. But consider the notion that a 20-year patent can be the ground from which a new company can grow to autonomy and profitability. I have enough experience with startups to know that it can take nearly that long for a company to establish itself in the market as a player, let alone become sustainably profitable. Without a set of patents to protect their intellectual property, that product is simply reverse-engineered and rebranded by an existing corporation with the resources to put startups out of business. Why spend tens of millions on licensing or buyouts when you can simply wait a few years and take it with no price tag attached?

[@ChrisP3000x]

@mattvdh Just curious,... but what physical products have you created? Can you post a few links? Thanks, man!

[@ParisblueCos]

Could you imagine Fender suing Gibson (or vice versa) for making A GUITAR when we are the company making the guitars??? My first recollection of this type of thing in the music gear world was when Floyd Rose began requiring licensing for any tremolo system that resembled theirs.

[@mattkastner5820]

I mean... Gibson is pretty notorious for suing other guitar manufacturers for anything that even remotely resembles a Gibson design...

[@BrunodeSouzaLino]

Patents have one hidden issue that only shows itself with attempting to design solutions for ideas. Have you ever wondered why, despite cable operated remote hihats being a solved problem, no company has ever made one that can be operated with multiple pedals? The reason for that is because DW has a patent on this idea since 2008 and doesn't seem interested in doing anything with it.

[@RockinExperience]

No mention of Simmons?

[@costascostas1760]

Damn it.... what edrum do I buy now?

[@damnyankeefl]

well I like the silicone pads yamaha makes and I have no trouble hitting a well positioned 8 inch snare lol

[@Bystander333]

Recently bought a Roland 12" mesh snare to replace the 8" that came with my Alesis kit. It's a lot nicer including being bigger.

[@c1ph3rpunk]

I work for a document management company, 80% of our customers are in the legal industry. There are firms that specialize in IP law and if you want a given patent to be global, they manage the filings for you. They’ll ask “where do you want to cover”, generate all the needed docs, file and manage them for the client. If Roland doesn’t use this type of service they’re either cheap or clueless. If they do use one they chose which areas they want patents in and paid the firm to file there. And all those docs end up on a disk that we manage. It’s one of the few industries where you take money from lawyers, rather than hand it over.

[@trusoundlowvolumedrumheads1002]

Hi Justin if you look into what evans just came out with you will have another patent episode to do lol. But this time the patent was the other way around and the big guy had to design around the little guy and the result was not very good. 😉

[@paulperry7091]

Roland sent me a "cease and desist" threat for my Frostwave A-Beam optical theremin. I pointed out to their lawyers that there was prior art from thirty years earlier, that it was nothing to do with their D-Beam, and I never heard from them again. The electronics expert Don Lancaster once pointed out that all a patent does, is give you a ticket to a fight.

[@chris135x]

If Roland is always trying to sue or does she any other company that manufactures electronic drumsets, then that only tells me Roland is trying to push the competition out of the way. Or put other electronic drum companies out of business. That's not cool.

[@donthewatcher8835]

had to be the drums i had both kits from roland and alesis somebody bit hard (no names)

[@tbip2001]

Is that why hart dynamics went bust? I had a top of the range hart kit many years ago. It was so well made

[@360.Tapestry]

one of their accountants screwed them over. but perhaps they were financially weakened, first, so they couldn't survive it

[@Trottelheimer]

No. According to Mr. Hart himself, Roland had nothing to do with that.

[@keithnorris6348]

I hope this does not mean I have to unglue my Alesis ` nano compressor ` from the bac k of my Roland ` Micro cube ` amp.

[@rar91181]

That's meshed up!

[@jefflitchfield4950]

It's also interesting to add that Samsung recently bought Roland/digitech/dod

[@trevorwoodley3897]

Evidence, please. Samsung bought Roland?? Isn't it bad enough they bought Harman (JBL, Soundcraft, Crown, Lexicon,)?! Now they want to fuck up Roland as well?

[@Zazquatch1]

Makes me never wanna buy another Roland kit again, nor play one. 😡

[@wilkopiano]

Roland have also been fined historically for price fixing and colluding with retail outlets. They are still doing it now. People are saying its UK brexit causing price hikes but it doesn’t warrant the 50% price hike in every single product line in the UK.

[@outerspacebass]

Is the amount of money the lawyers made quantifiable?

[@adamscrewedeve]

Roland needs to put their prices down - Not everyone is Def Leppard :D

[@b9904]

The good thing about intellectual property rights is... they will eventually expire, but offer an incentive for the holder to make money and pour it back to R&D.