FUTURELIGHT (The North Face) vs GORE-TEX Jacket Breathability Battle - exercise in cold conditions

[@alttabby3633]

Great data, thank you! Would be interesting to see how different manufacturers use of the "gore-tex infinium" material stack up against each other.

[@AlexHibbertOriginals]

Ah that's an astute test idea.

[@ThePaulv12]

The relative humidity will have an effect. For example, you sweat badly at 100% relative humidity because the air is saturated so the air cannot absorb the sweat you produce. The drier the air the opposite. This is why people typically can deal with hot dry heat better than hot and humid. Any variation in relative humidity will vary the amount of wicking from the fabric. In fact in meteorology they use this phenomenon to calculate relative humidity via a wet and dry bulb. It gets complex fast because there's the synthetic datum called the dry and wet adiabatic lapse rate, which is compared with the dry and wet environmental lapse rate. This inputs temperature and pressure in the equation. Also dry is a relative term; you can't dry something drier than the humidity of the environment it's being dried in because it will wick moisture from the air. It's just the nature of things. What is dry? Point is the results the results are a snapshot of a lot of varying conditions and might indicate a trend but might also be unreliable for a high Arctic trek. I kind of guess this is why it so confusing for consumers. There needs to be a set of standards and garments tested against those standards to give at best an indication of performance. Your conclusion is the important one here. How it performs for you, how you feel wearing it, the build quality and durability and how dry you feel afterwards.

[@AlexHibbertOriginals]

It was certainly a difficult task for the jackets - as you rightly point out, the RH on a dry UK winter day is still higher than the Arctic in winter/spring. I would expect them to perform better in the very cold, very dry. I agree there needs to be a proper standardised, independent test they ALL sign up to. There ARE some official tests, but they're not compulsory, and the conditions are rarely published. We end up with apples and oranges. The final drying was undertaken in a climate controlled flat, and was considered 'dry' when the weight matched the starting weight.

[@RogerByrne]

You have a habit of good timing, the last time was buying a thermos and yesterday I was looking at shells 👌

[@AlexHibbertOriginals]

Amongst my better habits.

[@dancarter482]

Incredible attention to detail - must have been grueling grinding through all the stages. I came unstuck hiking to _Adam's Peak_ in Ceylon years ago because I trusted the marketing of a "Wicking" sports top base layer. It soaked up every drop of moisture I could produce on the pre-dawn ascent then left me to chill down to what felt like core temp danger levels when I stopped at the top. Once I staggered back nearer sea level and regular Shrilankan temperatures it caused me to overheat. It was about as effective as a bin-liner! _Cheers!_

[@AlexHibbertOriginals]

Wicking is a rather different beast, and it's possible that the top was indeed correctly absorbing your sweat and facilitating its movement to the surface of the fabric. The problem might then have been humid air limiting evaporation of that dampness.

[@dancarter482]

@@AlexHibbertOriginals Indeed - either way it isn't something one would want to find out the hard way - some notorious regiment desert patrol deaths from hypothermia spring to mind .. . ..

[@thegrillmaster4502]

I do enjoy these more cold weather survival/gear related videos as I find myself more and more interested in the winter hiking opportunities that the Adirondacks provide me.

[@AlexHibbertOriginals]

These ones don't tend to be rewarded in terms of views (yet), but thank you. I'll keep doing a variety of films.

[@gafrers]

I don't think i'll never need such items of clothing but i find the topic fascinating. Interesting and well done. Empirical Data FTW

[@AlexHibbertOriginals]

Delighted!

[@Kevin-ib3io]

Excellent video! Thanks for putting it together. Perfect timing too, I'm just looking at replacing my shell.

[@paulsmart101]

Loved this. Proper test. Looking forward to the comparison with Pro.

[@AlexHibbertOriginals]

Cheers

[@dillwynknox9148]

Hello Alex, Thanks for the Tests. The want to do some testing with my own Jackets. I wonder what scale you used i struggle to find a scale with sufficent accuracy, that kan fit a jacket.

[@greenbimoon]

Well that was an awesome, well-thought-out test. Simple and thorough. Thanks

[@p4vl0s7]

I am extremely happy because I was looking for a goretex jacket for layering and I wanted a confirm about the Musto.

[@christopherquinn-x1z]

Alex: Thanks for the effort. I agree about the marketing and that their relentless efforts to keep it fresh instead keep it confusing. The one fabric that I’ve found that I think would be of interest to you is Schoeller’s c_change. I’ve had two jackets, and the current one is my favorite of all my shells (over my ArcT & Mammut GTPro shells). It is marketed as a softshell, and when I’ve worn it in pouring rain for hours I’ve gotten wet. But for strenuous activity in cool or cold, I’ve never had a better regulating shell, and I think it would be worth testing, if you can find one that meets your requirements for design. Schoeller should be able to help you find the right manufacturer.

[@AlexHibbertOriginals]

I'll make a note. Thanks.

[@wrusst]

Looks like more water proof the jacket the lower the score so it's a bit misleading as water proofing was not a test and a primary feature on most of these jackets. Doing the paclite could be interesting or finding the best gore tex alternative. Testing water repellent coatings could also be good

[@AlexHibbertOriginals]

The fact that water resistance to varying levels is a motivation for most jacket manufacturers (except for very specialist cold weather shells) will always complicate matters, as it's a difficult factor to control for when testing breathability.

[@ovetown3184]

Please test the breathability of sailing jackets. I would highly recocmend these for use in harsh enviroments tho idk how they fair against snow and cold

[@billb5732]

Truly excellent test. Thank you! As you say, wet weather is very different. I suspect that membrane-on-the-outside (ShakeDry and Outdry) will win there.

[@RandomNooby]

Thanks for this, all the testing and research you do is both impressive and appreciated. Have you tried Fjällräven's gore tex alternatives yet...

[@AlexHibbertOriginals]

Eco-shell? I gather it's similar but just without pfc?

[@kriped]

I'm trying out cotton/Ventile this winter. Heavy yes, but I dont feel like im walking with a plastick sack like I do with shell jackets.

[@AlexHibbertOriginals]

I may feed in some ventile next time.

[@sysdollarsystem]

Goretex Shakedry if you can find any left and big enough to layer anything underneath, mostly designed for cyclists and the like. Big downside is it is really delicate and not designed for constant rubbing - like rucsac straps. Big upside ultralight membrane only jacket.

[@hanwagu9967]

GTX Shakedry (technically GTX Active with ShakeDry) isn't that delicate, although GTX recommends not using it in applications where there will be a lot of wear like backpack straps...even though, there were initially multiple GTX shakedry jackets marketed for hiking/trail (to include Gore). I've used my Montbell Peak Dry GTX Active w/Shakedry extensively backpacking for two years and wouldn't say it is any less durable than other ultralight GTX shells. Norrona offers the Lyngen, which uses GTX Active shakedry around the torso and under arms, while using GTX Active 30D everywhere else to address the heavier wear areas.

[@najsbajsmedmajs]

A fairer test would've been a run on a treadmill or something. How much you sweat is going to vary an incredible amount if you're running outside on seperate days

[@AlexHibbertOriginals]

That would encourage the use of treadmills over running outdoors. And we can't do that!

[@hanwagu9967]

i like the charts. I can't say this is a breathability battle of membranes, because it really wasn't. It is very difficult to take these types of comparisons seriously when you aren't comparing like products, then claiming it's a test between membranes like futurelight and gore-tex (GTX). You were comparing very different products with material differences. You can find GTX Active anywhere from 13D-50D nylon or poly, and some GTX Active with ShakeDry, which will have a substantial impact on breathability. TNF Futurelight Drizzle uses 75D poly face fabric which is pretty heavy weight, considering TNF Summit series intended for the most extreme weather only use 70D face fabric. You would probably have gotten drastically different results testing jackets intended for the same purpose as the running test, like TNF Summit Series Superior Futurelight running jacket which uses 20D/30D poly face fabric. Even though Gore doesn't claim GTX Infinium to be waterproof, it's still the same but stretched thinner ePTFE waterproof membrane so the pores are larger. Infinium is consider water resistant because Gore doesn't require seams to be taped/sealed, although the Musto does tape its seams so it is actually technically waterproof. Montbell uses infinium with taped seams in some of their ultralight rain jackets like versalite, and I'm quite confident you won't find anyone that says those jackets aren't waterproof either. I think a more comparable test between the Musto Infinium and GTX Active would be a GTX Active with shakedry. I'm quite sure you would have far different results with GTX Active with shakedry than you did with the Adidas Terrex Myshelter GTX Active. GTX requires a pressure differential because of the PU layer on the membrane (except Pro), so it's not surprising the slow drop off during cool down. Futurelight is similar even though it is spun PU rather than an ePTFE "sheet" (for a lack of a better word). Since Futurelight is spun, it can be spun for different purposes with degrees of air permiability. In fact, TNF does tout that they've integrated air permeability on a "nano scale" with futurelight. Considering windproof is accepted to be 1CFM or less, and Futurelight is claimed at 1CFM, it would technically be considered "windproof" even though it is still air permeable at 1CFM.

[@AlexHibbertOriginals]

You hit on a key problem - all these membranes were inside jackets. Unfortunately, no one makes a standardised jacket where you then choose the inner membrane. Even somehow sourcing the raw membranes wouldn't help, as they then would not behave like a jacket. It would be a lab test. Until then, we can only do our best with tests and stating all the caveats.

[@hanwagu9967]

@@AlexHibbertOriginals you are correct, but you could at least try to do the test using best comparable jackets in terms of face fabric weight, membrane layers, etc. As noted, if you are going to compare the seam taped infinium Musto, it should have been done against the most comparable GTX Active and Futurelight products. TNF Drizzle Futurelight and Adidas Terrex Myshelter GORE-TEX Active were never going to come close to being comparable to the Musto Infinium, and as you intimated neither are really designed for high output. If you had chosen a GTX Active intended for high exertion like GTX Active with ShakeDry or running purpose futurelight like the TNF Summit Series Superior Futurelight, I think you'd have seen very different results. The wool base moisture retention graph is a good argument for using those pit zips in the adidas jacket. It also is more of an argument to use synthetic base layer under GTX or futurelight rather than wool, especially for higher exertion activities. I think an interesting test would be to do this same test using synthetic base layer. Given how futurelight and gtx works, the water retention of wool works against gtx and futurelight which requires water vapor rather than water molecules. I've always found far greater water condensation inside of gtx and futurelight jackets when wearing wool over synth in high exertion activites, which makes sense.

[@forest9997]

I know that you live in the UK, but it'd be really cool if you tested some of Rei's co-op stuff. Just to see what their products versus the name brands are

[@AlexHibbertOriginals]

I'm in the US plenty, so I'll pick some up next time.

[@MCallsen]

I wonder where this was filmed (and who paid for the co-star in the background ;) ) - I may have to read what is written on that box?

[@AlexHibbertOriginals]

A mystery that can only be solved by watching it again, and then searching out said venue.

[@MCallsen]

@@AlexHibbertOriginals That is a really hot tip - I'm on my wayyyy :D

[@billleblanc819]

Great job Alex!

[@AlexHibbertOriginals]

Cheers

[@pakiw2]

I'm so lost in them fabrics. Tried some, failed to use. I'm travelling on bicycle, in northern hemisphere it's a lot of time when it's cold wind and moist. Still didn't found anything to wear to stop sweat. There's is no any information for newbies. So I stayed with natural fabrics instead and have to carry more clothes during traveling.

[@AlexHibbertOriginals]

Infinium has really impressed me.

[@TheUffeess]

What do the polar bears think of these jackets? A test I want to see! 😀

[@Jehty_]

How relevant do you think these results are for real life? You mentioned that you didn't really have a moisture problem with the Futurelight trousers. So presumably the Futurelight jacket - even though it didn't perform well in your test - would still be decent enough for real use? So basically what I'm asking is if all jackets were good enough? Or will you for example not wear the Goretex Active jacket because it "failed" your test even though you like the jacket?

[@AlexHibbertOriginals]

All of these jackets (save the cheap one) will perform better than entry-level outdoor fabrics, or things like Pertex Classic, so it's a balance of cost/other features/performance. The trousers were given a fairly easy time, legs sweat less, and my legs felt cold, so it wasn't a 'win' for them. I would not currently use Futurelight in a jacket format. I'd want to do a test across the whole GORE-TEX range before really condemning the Active membrane, and trying it in a polyester jacket too.

[@hurdurdur7rl696]

Once upon a time i bought a softshell at some point that has proper ventilation flaps in the underarms (closed with zipper if needed). I will never buy a jacket without those again. kthnxbye.

[@AlexHibbertOriginals]

They still exist, but most companies believe the new fabrics render them obsolete.

[@hurdurdur7rl696]

@@AlexHibbertOriginals guess i have to try one of the jackets you mentioned here to compare for my own needs. My typical use case isn't running though, more about biking to town or fast walks. In the past i have been disappointed by all the "breathable" products. Maybe i just expect them to pull of miracles.

[@swe223]

I don't think these jackets with pitzips are obsolete. Their breathability is probably far superior to any fabric. And when paired with these recent fabrics, you get the best of both worlds. They also cover a much wider range of intensities. So in a sense, you're never too hot, therefore you don't sweat in the first place, instead of sweating a lot and then having to massively evacuate the moisture. Maybe worth including one in the next test?

[@larion3296]

I was expecting a test in freezing temperatures, since I live close to the arctic circle. In cold weather the breathability can be compromised due to freezing of the fabric, and it would be interesting to see the differences. Goretex is mostly good for wind protection at -15 degrees Celsius (not much rain or melting snow then), and personally I use thin flexible softshells at least down to -15 degrees when doing moderately exhaustive activities, such as shoveling snow or ski touring in more or less windy conditions. For pure exercise, such as cross country skiing on prepared tracks even more breathable clothes are needed, with compromises in wind resistance. Still, this was an interesting comparison with a clever setup.

[@AlexHibbertOriginals]

I needed to balance the ability to run the repeatable test, and sadly wasn't 'on location' at the time. Space for other follow up tests. The main difference I'd account for is the humidity gradient. It'll obviously be greater in colder, dry air, and the jackets should perform better. The only point I'd add is that GORE-TEX is no longer one thing, and their range is now spread across different end uses. Infinium for example is not waterproof.

[@pulkpuller]

The sweat amount (sweat rate ) variable is a big question here

[@AlexHibbertOriginals]

Well I tried to standardise that as much as possible day to day, but you'd have to use a professional machine that pumps out moisture at a set rate to improve, I think.

[@clayp5129]

Maybe Alan needs a GTX infinium hardshell

[@simonsparr0w]

Great, very interesting

[@rorypenstock1763]

How long was the cooldown?

[@AlexHibbertOriginals]

Well noticed. 10 wasn't enough so I reran the first, and standardised at 15mins.

[@gavinferguson]

I hate the claims goretex make in Scotland soggy damp weather nothing works you just get wet

[@AlexHibbertOriginals]

When it's THAT wet, multiple changes of sacrificial clothing is the only way.

[@docmagoos78]

Alex i really enjoy your cold skills videos and nerding out on details BUT I cringe every time you say “centigrade” the official name is CELSIUS. Please respect the man who let water freeze at 0 and boil at 100. Anders Celsius. It was renamed in 1948 from centigrade to Celsius. The other guy was just silly (32 and 220 🥺) Anyway. Keep,the fine videos coming!

[@AlexHibbertOriginals]

We interchange the two in casual chat in the UK, but thanks for the prompt to read through the history.

[@pradolover]

32 and 212

[@goiterlanternbase]

Such a nine pound jacket and the fitting trouser, were cut by me to T-shirt and pirate pants length. But they are for biking purposes, not for hiking. They are supposed to keep the core body dry. I like Aramid fibers btw. A working pant, made from Kermel was the fastest drying pant i ever had. From soaking wet, to dry to the touch, in less than an half hour😲 I have tried the Stuff from Bulwark and another Aramid, but they are not as good as Kermel. Still they beat every other technical fibre i know by large.