Why Fjällräven Doesn't Use GORE-TEX (part 3)

[@pedtrog6443]

I'll repeat a comment here I made about Goretx: A word here from rainy New Zealand. I've had many years in the great outdoors here and have lived through the evolution of rainwear from oilskins to PVC to coated nylons to Goretex and the rest. Each of these have upsides and downsides and Goretex is no exception. Aside from the crippling price, in really wet conditions, for me., it would be a toss up between goretex and a well designed PVC jacket - that's if I could ever find one. Goretex's selling point is obviously it's breathability. However, this breathability ceases to exist as soon as the fabric becomes wet. Lovely promo images of the water beading off the outer layer belie the realities of extended treks in the rain. After a bit of use, the silicon coating on the outer layer gives up the struggle and the fabric becomes heavy and uncomfortable. The notion of breathability ceases to exist outside of a clever marketing campaign and your sweat just adds to the misery. And the downsides don't stop there. If you're lucky enough for the rain to stop, you're still wearing a sodden garment and now the wind is chilling you as it evaporates that big store of moisture. I sometimes feel as if I could be getting more protection from a good sized rubbish sack. Don't get me wrong, there are some upsides. Where Goretex especially shines is in sub zero temperatures or any cold conditions where the air is dry. It then becomes a pleasure to finish a tough hike with dry clothes. It's just that when you're soggily slogging away through the cold rain, the knowledge of how much that bloody jacket cost you just adds to the pain.

[@cottonball5499]

@@ronnybjrklund4459 TNF future light is also PFC free and more breathable than goretex , and is another great option

[@ragetobe]

This isn’t true, I do not have a clue where you are getting your facts from. I wear Rukka clothing while riding my bike, the clothing I wear is breathable when wet. After spending hours on a bike while touring Europe/England I can testify to this, yes the jacket and trousers were £2800 but this is bike protection on many levels with a 6 year warranty for any issue. My clothing never gets sodden, it’s laminated so the water never makes it’s way through the top material, my boots are the same. There is no other option for people like me, perhaps you should research modern Goretex products before through fake facts around because laminated Goretex breathes when it is wet and does not get soaked through.

[@pedtrog6443]

@@ragetobe Well you might say I get my facts from experience. 60 years in the outdoors - a lot of that professional instructing and guiding in that time. And it does rain here. Up to 8 or 9 metres a year in some places

[@ragetobe]

@@pedtrog6443 You point me towards a Motorbike Jacket that doesn't use Goretex but is waterproof with all the appropriate protection and I'll give it a go but until then I'll use my 40 years of experience riding, hiking, travelling around the world to make my decisions. I'm not taking children around the countryside, I'm touring multiple countries with no escape from the weather. Just looking at your reply I can see that you actually have very little experience in the real world. I doubt Rukka are the most well-known waterproof protection gear for motorcycling for no reason. Perhaps we should all use some waxed cotton instead because a scout leader said so.

[@ragetobe]

@@pedtrog6443 By the way I'm calling your 60 years of experience bullshit, I'm not young myself but I don't class anything before I was 20 as experience, life just happened at that point. Get over yourself, do something other than take girls and boys up a hill because I can tell you, that doesn't even come close to extreme. Your issue is, you think you are the big bad boy of the internet and nobody has done what you have done. You should change your assumptions to everyone has done what you have done and more, humble yourself because most people I know have done more than you including me.

[@alunjones2550]

I heard a story that an oil company in America recently ordered a load of jackets from The North Face for their staff. TNF refused to supply the oil company on the grounds that the company didn't align with their green credentials. The oil company then pointed out that the vast majority of TNF's products are made with fibres derived from petrochemicals. The local oil industry then presented TNF with an honorary award for services to the oil industry. I really hope companies move away from synthetic materials but at the same time I wish they wouldn't make hollow marketing ploys about their love of the planet whilst doing nothing. All credit to the oil company for outing TNF as hypocrites.

[@GT_Racer347]

EXACTLY!!!!!

[@M_SC]

I don’t know this situation but i bet you’ve oversimplified it to the credit of the oil company. A lot of dumbos say things like if you drive a car you can’t be against any and all oil extraction/processing etc. all or nothing thinking is stupid- and I Don’t drive and never have so I’m “pure”.

[@alunjones2550]

@@M_SC You can't oversimplify the hypocrisy of companies pretending they care whilst actually contributing to the problem. When you criticise the oil industry and yet the vast majority of the clothes you produce are made with materials derived from oil, you're in no position to pretend you're morally superior by refusing business from an oil company. I fully endorse going green, it's the hypocrisy of companies like North Face who blatantly lie to the world by pretending they're looking after the planet.

[@sxmvp]

"I really hope companies move away from synthetic materials" Just out of curiosity, what would be a viable option for outerwear that is made out of natural fibers? There's lots of natural fibers that are all amazing for regular clothes, but I've heard it's difficult to make waterproof etc. outerwear without synthetic material

[@herbertherb9904]

​@@sxmvp Leather is the obvious one. Then there's cotton fabrics like Ventile/etaProof.

[@varun009]

In the first world war, most soldiers were issued heavy wool overcoats to be work over their issued tunics. The wool was excellent for keeping soldiers warm, but it soaked in too much water and soil. As a result, they would get too heavy. A soaked sleeve could make your arm 10% heavier but it feels like you're carrying twice the weight after a little while. Burberry invented the commercially made trench coat. A wool, cotton and linen blend coated with a proprietary drying oil, it was the perfect fit. To this day, I still wear one in the rain in India. Nothing beats it. When you're tall (6'2"), umbrellas just don't keep your legs dry. Trench coat is perfect.

[@thomasschellekens5084]

Some wool, like melton, actually still contains a bit of grease/wax from the sheep and is water repellant. Look up sheep wax for example. Cooked wool has this oil/wax removed and will soak up water.

[@varun009]

@@thomasschellekens5084 I'm not so sure about that because to my knowledge, melton is boiled and fulled which degreases it to an extent. I heard dehreasing was needed for felting. Do you have any sources? Id like to learn more.

[@Ty-er5ok]

I have a drizabone coat that is absolutely impervious to rain, otherwise known as an oilskin coat. Mine is over 20 years old and I only recently retreated it as the oil/wax had dried up on a few spots. Also breathable, but not as light as goretex or the equivalent. 100+ year old technology that in my book is far superior when it comes to waterproofing, plus it is very tough. Not great for mountaineering and that sort of thing. But for working in the rain? Nothing beats an oilskin jacket.

[@e3458]

yeah but the downside is sometimes you look like a school shooter

[@dude6546]

​@@Ty-er5ok My uncle bought an oilskin from Drizabone like 40 years ago and it's still going strong. The duster is older than me!

[@IIDASHII]

The problem that Fjallraven suffers from is not that they don't have "best of the best" water resistance. It is that fact combined with the fact that their gear costs more than a lot of gear with "best of the best" water resistance.

[@jasonhiggins6431]

Well FJ are playing on the notion that their coats are handmade in Sweden 🇸🇪 when the reality is that ALL their product range is made in China and ALL the global profits generated go back to Sweden 🇸🇪 😂😂😂

[@georgeforeman89]

Exactly. I can get a really great gore-tex jacket on sale for like $150-200. Fjallraven's cheapest jacket with that waterproofing is like $500 and they NEVER go on sale.

[@petter5721]

They last a lifetime so they are not so expensive after all.

[@Runoratsu]

My problem with them is mostly that all their gear looks so pretend old timey / eco / hipster. Mostly drab or at least muted colors too.

[@nicholasg.3585]

@@jasonhiggins6431 Everything I own by Fjallraven is made in Vietnam, not China, big difference, but in general...made in Asia ≠ bad quality!

[@carlkolthoff5402]

When growing up in Sweden in the eighties and nineties, Fjällräven was considered old fashioned and not cool at all by me and my friends. I remember wanting an Adidas backpack instead of the green Kånken my mom gave me. Today I'd be happy to wear anything they make. Funny how perspectives change over time!

[@mrmotomoto]

Just graduated from a large university and those backpacks are everywhere. They are definitely the trendy backpack all girls seem to want to have.

[@tabiripetrovich517]

I have family in eastern europe and when we visited tgem in the 1990-ies they always gave us clothes with the Little Mole and Vic the fox, and other czech and hungarian cartoon characters. We didnt like them because in canada the mickey mouse and all that disney garbage was in fashion :) Im happy to see my younger family members walking around with the mole on their t-shirts :)

[@IG-jd8pt]

Vuk the fox

[@admiralbum]

That explains why there was so much of Fjallraven in the thrift shops in my part of Europe in the nineties...

[@MindbodyMedic]

This is why you should have a good marketing budget

[@p0lar66]

As a backcountry skier I agree 100% with this. Gore-tex went too mainstream and I don’t think anyone needs it just for the sake having the most technical garment. When I’m walking 7-10 hours on a heavy snowfall/rain situation then yes Gore-tex is pretty useful. But for going to the mall or even a camping trip its just overkill and it wont make a difference.

[@FutureProofTV]

Exaaactly, not trying to say Gore-Tex is useless by any means with this video, just that it's not necessary for every situation and Fjällräven might work for many people's lifestyles. Thanks for the insight!!

[@hanwagu9967]

if waterproofness to the degree of Gore-tex wasn't necessary nor wanted, then why does Fjallraven offer similar degree of waterproofness? Gore-tex tests around 30k mm, and Fjallraven offers shells rated at anywhere from 10k mm- 30k mm.

[@hanwagu9967]

gore-tex didn't go mainstream, the brands that used gore-tex did. it's ridiculous to say that someone going to the coffee shop shouldn't buy a gore-tex jacket because you have an ego issue about who should or shouldn't be wearing a technical garment. Consumers drive the demand.

[@p0lar66]

Yeah you said it, Gore tex did go too mainstream. I wasn’t talking about the brand specifically but the material itself, I can rephrase it and say that PTFE membranes got to mainstream but that’s besides the point. Also there a big difference between 10k to 30k, 10k is not hard to archive in a sustainable way and is more than enough for everyday stuff. You can buy a gore tex jacket to go and buy coffee if you want, but you’ll pay more and you won’t be doing the environment any favors.

[@johann6695]

Yeah true that. But I have one Haglöfs Jacket for "heavy weather conditions" if I'm going to school by bike or going in the city. I rather spent a bit more money and have this jacket for the next 10+ years than maybe buying a cheaper / not as good alternative that doesn't work so well and hasn't the longevity my Hagföfs jacket has. I'm glad with my decision although it was quite expensive and not perfect for the environment. But I'll try to "make it up" with keeping it a long time, treating it fine and trying to save the environment in other ways to compensate this jacket. have a nice day :D

[@jeremynewman1705]

My experience with waxed G-1000 wasn't very good. I've had both a coat and trousers waxed and took them for a spin to Sottish Highlands in winter. Before anyone says anything like I did't do it properly or I should have applied more layers, I've spend almost 20 hours spread out over three days, applying and ironing-in the wax. Two full coats and extra wax at the seams. My first outing was on Ben Lomond in mid December. Snow, whiteout condition going up then mild weather front system bringing rain on the way down. I got soaked through so badly even my underwear was wet. I've tried few more times on different occasions, not so severe conditions, even regular use as a daily driver walking around town on a rainy day. But every time, without fail the material failed me. The weak link seems to be the seams themselves as water would always find a way to get inside them. That's it, rant over.

[@boscho1986]

Had the same experience - the waxing does not nearly work as advertised and I have the impression that it is worn off almost instantly. As for the G1000 material itself: so fragile that I stopped using it - I'd rather use any army pant, even if it is 100% cotton (use some rain pants over it, in case it rains). Fjallraven has been living of the "we are so close to nature" image for decades and obviously they hit a nerve.

[@Gieszkanne]

@@boscho1986 Yes the G-1000 seems not to be nearly as tough as many claim. And the G 1000 lite is the worst. Once bought a jacket (Skogsö) Which is made to 80% of the lite G-1000. The sleeves had wear marks after only 1 year and even small holes appear. Just the parts rubbing against the fabric of the torso. Unbelievable. Not even the cheapest discounter jacket would show up like this after only 1 year. But at least FR took it back. But they still sell this Jacket and still made of G-1000 lite.

[@325iaddict]

Exactly the same experience a customer of us had. He bought an Ovik down jacket, and according to the shop he bought it from, he could make it waterproof with that wax... he applied it liberally, and the first halfway serious rainshower soaked him to the bone. I could have told you that before, I said to him. "So... you know more?!" he said. And yes, I know more. A garment that's not waterproof by itself, will NEVER get waterproof by applying whatever layer you can imagine. So, finally he bought a Patagonia "Wanaka" H2no down jacket and later I heard from him this jacket never, ever leaked the tiniest bit. He comfortably survived many rainshowers in it. THAT is worth a lot as a sound recordist...

[@Gieszkanne]

@@325iaddict Now I understand why you are argumentation is so obstinate. You are selling this overpriced shit.

[@vocartagmailcom]

I had one waxed thing, after everything that it touched become oily, I stopped using it:/ It's even more important when you use glasses, camera gear, etc.

[@HorizonsleatherBlogspot2012]

I wear wool and use a canvas oiled anorak. Purely natural, easy and simple. Fjallraven is on the right track and we could all benefit from more thinking like they exhibit. One side note, if you buy lightly used military Goretex you can get a lot of use from recycling and avoid the high price to boot.

[@matthewburger798]

It hurts to say as an arcteryx fanboy, but fjallraven is the direction we have to go.

[@FutureProofTV]

💪💪💪

[@svsanchago]

Arcteryx fell of the wagon a while ago now. They haven't been a true outdoor brand for a while now

[@stang9806]

@@svsanchago been street wear for a while now

[@allahbless2278]

@@stang9806 Nope,they're still doing the same thing. Just because people use it as syreetwear fashion doesn't mean they fell in quality

[@dogwalk3]

@@allahbless2278 agreed. this reminds me of peak hipster in the early aughts, where bands weren't good anymore if they got famous. childish. fashion industry has co-opted arcteryx to an extent, the same as salomon, but both companies are trucking along making the exact same quality of stuff. ive used a lot of arcteryx stuff over the years but as ive gotten older (& responsibilities such as having a partner, two dogs, & work more) i haven't been doing heavy duty long backpacking or explorative adventures, so i don't need the durability that a 3 layer pro shell provides; i do a lot more trail running & fast packing, so ive gone with more lightweight materials these days, but if i were mountaineering or ice climbing or even doing proper backpacking, i'd still bring my beta AR in a heartbeat.

[@Northwest360]

I worked at Fjallraven during college and had a great time. Your video brought back good memories! I have the Keb eco-shell. It’s pretty expensive, but is still holding up after almost 8 years!

[@FutureProofTV]

Woah, glad to hear the durability is as much of a key-component as they advertise it to be. Thanks for taking the time to share with us and be a part of the team, Matt 💪

[@rule3036]

Had an early NF goretex Expedition jacket and salopettes for skiing and Scottish winters...lasted about 12 years of hard use....newer goretex jackets just seem flimsy and not as durable now.

[@Dark___Venom]

@@rule3036 They seem flimsy because they probably want to make them as light as possible and because "every feature comes at a cost" the cost in that case is sadly durability.

[@dude6546]

You're impressed about 8 years? I've got an oilskin my uncle bought 40 years ago and it's holding up. Thing is older than me! 😂

[@pettahify]

My favourite travel backpack is my father's fjällräven he used when backpacking by rail in 1970s. Still holds together and is still waterproof.

[@cdysthe]

Great stuff! I am a Norwegian living in the US with Fjallraven all over me. In Norway back to the late 60s we had Fjallraven gear for mountain trips. Some of it is till going over there! Currently I have a Fjallraven winter parka, a rolltop backpack I use every day for commute and when traveling. I have a couple of Fjallraven jackets and trousers. and of course my wallet which is a blue Fjallraven Kanken Card Wallet. Fjallraven stuff has always been expensive but so worth it! My 89 year old father passed away last year and my brother took over his 70s winter jacket which is as good as new. It's an heirloom! Good to see that Fjallraven is getting better known in the US. I can now buy in stores here in New England.

[@FutureProofTV]

Wow, that's amazing that you've got so much Fjällräven gear still kicking around! Glad to see some of those items last as long as they advertise and also be passed down through generations. Thanks so much for sharing with us, Christian!

[@handlemonium]

Do you own a pair of the Abisko Trekking Tights? I have two pairs and am curious as to what applying "waterproofing wax" on top of it is like.

[@cdysthe]

@@handlemonium No, I do not own the Abisko's so I do not know what the wax will do to them. Sorry!

[@HolybasilYT]

@@handlemonium Do NOT wax your tights. They are not made of g-1000. They are entirely synthetic and will not react to the wax the way you hope.

[@BritishRacingGreen]

I'm in the UK and I'm becoming to be a Fjallraven convert. It's a bit more expensive, but you pay for good quality.

[@zam9k8]

I have been wearing my FJALLRAVEN GREENLAND WINTER G1000 JACKET since 2012 for four/five months every year. and it still looks almost like new. Never even waxed it. Stylish, comfortable and very practical. One of my best investments in clothing. Never regretted.

[@FutureProofTV]

That's awesome to hear that it's lasted you so long and has held up so well. Glad it's served you!

[@sofiad1223]

I bought one second hand but unfortunately it s not warm anymore, I don't know if it s too old but the inside doesn't provide any warmth.

[@Danube_Man]

Páramo is another excellent outdoor clothing company that doesn't use Goretex. Their Nikwax directional textiles which although heavier, are both significantly more comfortable and durable than the less environmentally friendly alternatives. Big in the UK and, to a lesser extent, mainland Europe, they sadly never seem to reached the major US retailers (although I'd love to be proved wrong on this).

[@matwinner9708]

Minimal exertion will produce sweat to cool the body, very often matching or even exceeding outside water/humidity, resulting in swimming in your own salty water trapped inside the expensive fancy goretex. Aim for temperature control and ventilation, you won’t stay really dry anyway

[@mo-215]

100%. I've never been a fan of Gore Tex or other so called breathable. I've always preferred active layering management

[@325iaddict]

That completely depends.... I'm of the virtually non-sweating type. No problems with any of the waterproof materials (Gore Tex, Dermizax, H2no or Hydratic). The only way for me to get wet inside such a jacket is to let the zipper open partially, so the rain comes in ;-)

[@ketle369]

My experience is that you will get wet if you stay outside doing hard work, either from the outside or from the inside. Clue is to stay warm. Solution is wool because it is still warm if it’s wet.

[@clooperman3745]

@@325iaddict You are lucky if you hardly sweat, l am the complete opposite, l spend a lot of time outdoors year round and find a merino wool base layer is the best solution dealing with sweat for me.

[@jimf671]

I am not a Fjallraven user but I do tend toward a similar approach much of the time. I have one Ventile and two microfibre polyester smocks, none of which have membranes. Ventile is awesome and has incredible durability. Microfibre polyester when worn over a wicking material like wool or polyester fleece and treated with water repellancy works extremely well and similarly to the Buffalo and Paramo solutions. Regarding Ventile, if you have a need for a garment of this quality and durablility that comes from a non-PFC and sustainable source then please buy it soon or ventile will simply die forever as more of the necessary European manufacturing processes close down.

[@thedirtyexplorer]

I quite literally just returned home to Alaska, from the Arctic working as an expedition guide in the northern most parts of 🇬🇱 Greenland/Baffin Bay…and I used Fjallraven & reapplied their wax when needed. I’m talking, hours on end, covered head to boot, soaking in water or the constant blasting wind and sudden temperature drops …Lasted the entire expedition, no problem. Nearly every every single expedition Member was wearing it as well (oddly enough, I did have to teach them to wax their gear though, but I think that’s a byproduct of living in southeast, Alaska, a literal frozen rainforest).

[@sdemosi]

There are many alternatives to Goretex now. Electrospun membranes such as Polartec's PU-based Neoshell and North Face's polyester-based Future light. Helly Hansen's polypropylene-based Lifa Infinity. Toray's Dermizax EV and NX. Most of these feel more comfortable than GTX. They stretch and move better than GTX. There's something really irritating about spending a small fortune on a shell that feels stiff & uncomfortable in 2022. Fjallraven are one expensive alternative but the market has other options depending on what you want from waterproofing & breathability. Wax is fine for casual jackets and pants but it's a tradeoff of breathability, waterproofing and even mobility for perfomance use. I prefer the barbour wax products to Fjallraven's Greenland wax as it's easier to apply and the fabric seems to absorb it better. Another route is Paramo which takes a different approach to waterproofing based on PFC free DWR and a water repellent liner.

[@LeakyWadersAdventureClub]

Yep gortex was first to market but they're falling behind in my opinion. Especially at the typical price point for a gortex product.

[@sdemosi]

@@LeakyWadersAdventureClub GTX Shakedry is a good product for what it is. Not that durable but performs well. GTX Pro is reliable but the innovations have been adding some stretch and durability in variants rather than a fundamental improvement in waterproofness or breathability. It's still basically the same tech which is far from environmentally friendly. Durability is always talked about but we all know these products wear out faster than you would hope.

[@trenchanttextiles647]

Thanks for the shout-out @sdemosi. Trenchant Textiles produces the fabric for Helly Hansen's Lifa Infinity line and are the exclusive provider of the air-permeable, PFC-free, PP membrane that is at the heart of those fabrics. I would note though that The North Face's 'Futurelight' is not PE-based, but yet another re-branding of the same electrospun PU membrane technology that has been around for a decade, and which brands like Rab are reportedly already moving away from. We could write a whole chapter slagging off the post-wash durability of electrospun polyurethane membranes, and how they need PFC chemistry in order to turn inherently hydrophilic PU hydrophobic (as it needs to be to resist water pressure). But that will have to wait for another time.

[@sdemosi]

@@trenchanttextiles647 ah, I had thought from an article that Futurelight was polyester based but that was erroneous and they're talking about the fabric the membrane is applied to, not the membrane itself which is PU based, with as you say PFC chemistry to adjust the polarity. So having hiked wifh Infinity Pro, Neoshell and GTX Pro I can offer some views on all 3. The ePTFE product is eclipsed by your product & Neoshell in breathability. I've never felt that the air permeability of GTX was high enough for comfort reasons & after decades of it not improving as much as I'd hoped since I got my first jacket in the early 90s, I've come to assume there are some fundamental mechanical problems in the stretching process that trade off the % of air permeable gaps across the fabric area, against the waterproofing. My background is engineering but not chemical so this was just a guess. The Lifa Infinity product was a burlier & higher denier design than the Neoshell product. I have worn both in downpours and found even the lower hydrostatic head of Neoshell to be satisfactory because air permeability and body heat seem to dry the product as I'm wearing it. I guess my body heat is evaporating the water and it's passing through the membrane. My conclusion on this is that chasing 28-30k h/h isn't that important for overall performance because the jacket and pants have a warm bodied, sweat producing human inside. Consistently high breathability is more important & I think most hikers feel the same way after a few years of experiencing condensation inside the jacket. I did the waterfall test (in Iceland) with the Lifa Infinity Pro jacket and pants and they held up fine. No moisture ingress and it was a great fun. I've done the same thing in GTX Pro with similar results. I also had good results in a 5 hour hike in the rain in Neoshell. The nicest fabric feel was the Neoshell (lighter denier however) with the Infinity Pro second, similar to a monolithic membrane and the noisier, crinklier GTX Pro was last. Better than it used to be but still not great. I'm used to caring for GTX Pro and it's still waterproof after a few years and reproofiing. The Lifa Infinity Pro is too new to comment as I bought it for a trip last Feb. However it is still as waterproof as they say I bought it and it's seen about 20 days of use in heavy rain. The Neoshell jacket and pants haven't been subject to the same rough use as it was bought for a different purpose and I "babied them". No 45-60 L packs were worn on that jacket and it has only been washed once. I didn't know the Infinity Pro was your product but I'm happy to say you did a great job. I've also recommended the Lifa Infinity Pro to friends and relatives who saw me wearing it and a good friend who came on a hiking trip with us. She says it's the best waterproof shell she's owned but it really should be good at that price 😉 so thanks for your work and for the unexpected interaction. 👍

[@trenchanttextiles647]

@@sdemosi This is brilliant feedback, and music to TT's ears. While we've worn the Lifa Infinity Pro jacket ourselves, feedback from unbiased users (let alone those with such broad experience using such a wide variety of high-end jackets) has been in short supply. I wonder if we could ask you thoughts on a couple other qualities of the jacket though. First, while Helly Hansen's marketing has admittedly been a bit confusing, the Lifa Infinity Pro series is quite unique in that it has no DWR whatsoever. Instead, we've used a bespoke polypropylene face fabric in order to leverage the inherent hydrophobicity of PP to obviate the need for DWR. This not only reduces the environmental impact of the jacket's production, but also eliminates the possibility that the water repellency will diminish over time. The repellency you experience on day one is the repellency that you'll experience for the life of the garment. So your feedback on the jacket's water repellency would be super interesting. The tradeoff from using a PP face fabric is that the abrasion resistance of the face is less than that of a standard nylon or polyester face. While I doubt that you would have noticed any difference this early in the jacket's lifespan, we would welcome any and all feedback on abrasion resistance going forward. Your point on the cost of the jacket is well-taken. We agree that it's worth the price, given its combination of industry-leading breathability and sustainability, not to mention Helly Hansen's design, trim and construction. However, I would note that our Intrepid membrane will find its way into lower price points in the years ahead. So watch this space. Next, while we're ecstatic about how breathable you found the Lifa Infinity Pro, I assure you that there is substantially more breathability forthcoming in our latest nylon-faced fabrics. The PP-faced 3-layer fabric used in that jacket has B1 breathability of 20K. While this is quite high compared to most jackets, TT's latest 3-layer nylon-face fabrics have breathability as high as 36K. This should put us ahead of Gore-Tex Pro Shell, while being roughly 97% less toxic at the membrane level (based on Higg Index numbers). That is not a typo - 33 TIMES less toxic! With performance like that, the toxicity of if PTFE is going to be nigh on impossible to justify going forward. Again, watch this space. Our fabrics will be available from other brands in the near future, as well as via a Kickstarter this fall. The final point I would make is that we believe we have a substantial durability advantage over NeoShell and the other electrospun PU membranes. This is particularly true when it comes to post-wash waterproofness - a well-known vulnerability of electrospun PU membranes. This is another point Trenchant would love your feedback on. TT is going to need experienced testers in the coming years, and it sounds like you know quite a lot about materials and jackets. If that would be of interest to you, please contact us via the Trenchant Textiles web site. Thanks again for you input!

[@shrimplythebesto]

Very smart video! It was fun to watch and made me smile quite a few times. Thanks so much for all your efforts. I live in the Swiss Alps and I happen to be a huge fan of Fjällräven's outdoor gear. The problem with the waterproof coating is that it is not durable. It's a layer that slowly slowly with use, cracks and sprinkles off, often unnoticeable. About 10 years ago I switched to Fjällräven and use its beeswax. It's amazing. Their G-fabrics are absolutely brilliant and I use an eco-shell for rainy weather, when out hiking and it has served me well skiing and on many other adventures. Their G-fabric rucksacks are bit heavier then all these ultralight items but durable. Have been using mine for the past 10 years! 10 years! Usually they expire within 3 years or so. I can recommend Fjällräven wholeheartedly though I agree: I wish their values and actions taken in that regard would be more transparent.

[@janosadelsberger]

For serious outdoor activities there really isn't anything that comes close to Goretex Pro but pretty much the go-to DWR supplier in Germany has an eco version of their product which is actually PFC-free and uses PU instead which they say is 100% biodegradable. It has to be heat activated in a dryer though.

[@immeremma]

What supplier is that? I will keep it in mind next time I need a raincoat!

[@trenchanttextiles647]

While this would definitely have been true 2-3 years ago, it's no longer the case. That's because my Taiwan-based startup is commercializing a remarkable new membrane that performs neck-and-neck with Pro Shell on breathability, superior in terms of post-wash waterproofness, and up to 33 TIMES less toxic. It's 100% PFC-free, it's air-permeable, and it's available right now in Helly Hansen's high-end 'Infinity' line of jackets. A very eco-conscious 'P' brand and a very technical 'A' brand both have long-term field tests ongoing, and may join this movement to high-performance, super-sustainable technology soon.

[@mochidomo]

@@trenchanttextiles647 what kind of ad-placement is this... great for your company though. literally could've just said patagonia and arcteryx though

[@hanwagu9967]

@@trenchanttextiles647 explain how heating plastic which is what is done for the HH Lifa Infinity face fabric does not emit plastic fumes. Also, explain how eco friendly is the recycling process of plastic and how durable recycled synth fibers are compared to virgin synth fibers. I agree though: HH 20k g/m2/day is neck and neck with GTX Pro 25k g/m2/day or 28k g/m2/day, although not as good as GTX infinium taped 43k g/m2/day while maintaining 30k mm. GTX's newest double layer bonded ePE performs much similar to GTX infinium.

[@janosadelsberger]

@@immeremma Fibertec Textile Guard Eco is the product I was referring to. Keep in mind however that the Textile Guard Pro version is PFC based.

[@InfamousMS]

With GTX, use of DWR is just to keep the shell fabric from wetting-out. For the most part, it’s not needed for the water proof capability of the GTX membrane. So, you don’t really need to reapply. Plus, you can usually just run it through a dryer cycle to revive it.

[@dogwalk3]

yep exactly. drying it will reactive the dwr for a while, though you'll have to eventually re-apply it. the reason dwr is important though, is that once water soaks into the outer nylon layer, the garment becomes heavier, & also reduces breathability, which leads to more sweating inside. but yeah - the goretex later will always stay absolutely waterproof.

[@connormcrae5686]

Came here to say this. That's an essential thing to understand. Good video but that oversight hurts his argument.

[@Bartem_]

I just wanted to comment exactly this, he should have explained this more thoroughly in the video!

[@hiramesensei3112]

goretex wont leak unless its torn. it will however get clammy as hell once the dwr soaks and if you sweat a lot, which can be just as bad

[@amyarcher8017]

Love this! Gortex is definitely falling out of favor with the backpacking community, but I never know if the replacement is better or worse for the planet

[@FutureProofTV]

Glad you enjoyed! Thanks for taking the time to join us here, Amy 👏😜

[@julsduran-buchsbaum8230]

the problem is we're all trying to save weight....which brings things like frogs togs which are pure plastic... there's like no solution

[@TarikVann]

Goretex is falling out of favour because people like cheap options and they are choosing proprietary brands of waterproof membranes that are as good or just different versions of goretex, hence why goretex has brought out many different lines recently. In the end the lost durable one will always be better for the environment and generally goretex tests their gear so ruggedly that it's the trusted brand. But yes, you don't need it for going down to the shops or a basic rainy camp.

[@Nylonscheme]

Um no its not at all. Only the best use GORETEX 3L Goretex pro

[@TarikVann]

@@Nylonscheme yes but the best is a very small section of outdoors people.

[@Gfls00]

I have always said Gortex is the asbestos of the outdoor industry! and will be treated the same in the future hopefully, fantastic video we need this conversation bringing to light🙏

[@brianmccarthy1322]

Interesting! As a 65+ year old male I celebrated the arrival of Gore Tex through the early years of seam sealing and 3 layer clothing to the modern certified jackets BUT my ancestors from Ireland were well served with naturally oiled wool garments and in England the royal family could cavorting in the highlands with Barbour oiled coats. Ultimately when faced with "build thee an arc" downpours you stay indoors or use an umbrella because I know from experience gore tex cannot breathe when the exterior is completely soaked.

[@jeremyfearon3114]

I'm still using my 1990's wax jacket, mostly for walking the dog, I reckon it will outlast me. Gore-tex was a revelation when compared to earlier waterproof garments and I have been through a few different brands for scaling mountains, but these days I'm gravitating towards natural fibres. Wool has largely been abandoned by modern society and huge amounts of it have been incinerated in recent years.

[@vjbroandthirdy]

Agree.i have the higher end goretex and I was soaking on the rain and sweat.

[@markhepworth1556]

Firstly,the Royal family can’t “cavort in the highlands” in England,they would have to go to Scotland (which they are also the royal family of along with wales and Northern Ireland) secondly,Barbour jackets are hardly exclusive,go pretty much anywhere in the UK outside of a town(and a lot of times in town) in winter and you’ll see people wearing Barbour 🤷‍♂️

[@CrimeVid]

@@ruzziasht349 maybe, but fashion Barbour.

[@CrimeVid]

@@ruzziasht349 I know, but those will be the fashion ranges of Barbour waxed jacket. They still make some of the old fashioned stand-in-the-rain type for sportsmen who like to shoot wildfowl etc. I don’t think they make the Solway Zipper any more though.

[@bastianhund]

As a Fjällräven fan and owner of several Fjällräven items a few years ago I purchased a jacket and bib pants in Eco-shell quality. Fjällräven promised these items would keep me dry when it’s raining for a whole day. However, after a few hours of skiing in heavy snowfall I was wet all the way into my base layer. I documented this, returned the items and got my money back. After that I decided to stick to Goretex-based shells. The jackets and pants from Norrona seems to be very durable and versatile. So for various outdoor activities I get away with less different pieces of clothing which last for many years. Thanks for an interesting video.

[@shutterfish]

Have sold many Jackets and pants in the Ecoshell line. Not more claims on them compared to Gore-tex. You had bad luck..

[@bastianhund]

@@shutterfish Thanks for your comment. You are probably right. At that time I was hoping that Fjāllrāven would say the same thing and simply replace the items. But instead fjāllrāven stated the soaked jacket and pants where matching their expectations. Nevertheless I got a full refund.

[@csadams404]

Use PU coated fabrics instead

[@mathijsvijn2144]

@@shutterfish he didn’t had bad luck. Had the same experience. Used my new at the Fjallraven classic Sweden. Baddest jacket that i ever used. After that i bought a mountain equipment gore tex pro jacket. En that one kept me dry. Couple of years ago. I walked the fjallraven classic in Denmark. I met 2 guys over there. And you’re guessing right. They also had 2 keb eco shell jackets. and guess what. After a rain of 2 hours they where wet. While i was using that Goretex pro jacket i was completely dry.

[@wolfdesk]

There are many PFC free DWRs, which are recommended by most goretex using brands. Most even come with PFC free DWR in the first place. Grangers is very good and PFC free and bluesign approved.

[@LeviRedrook]

Thank you for sharing this - noted!

[@TrippedCoasty]

Ya I use Nikwax on my goretex products and they’re also PFC free. I’ve heard that using a PFC DWR coating can also be bad because it sheds the chemicals into the environment when it’s raining; thankfully it seems that most manufacturers have moved away from using them. The PFC’s are still present in the material itself, but at least that’s living with the garment.

[@CanadianSkylights]

This would have been so easy for Levi to find and came across as him marketing a brand he didn't need to.

[@TarikVann]

I feel like this guy is only just getting into outdoor gear and he's finding stuff out that has been known and tackled in the industry for years.

[@sdemosi]

@@TrippedCoasty that's the fundamental problem. The ePTFE lining that Gore patented is one of these "forever chemicals". It is fully reacted and non toxic to the wearer of course. We should use PFC free DWR but the product itself is made from PFCs and a byproduct of its production is the environmentally damaging PFOA. Gore argue their membrane doesn't degrade into PFCECs, even in a landfill, and they're phasing out these PFCECs (PFCs of environmental concern) from their products. I don't want to seem like I'm bashing the company because they've done a lot of good, particularly in their medical research department. Lots of people are alive today because of the ePTFE membrane in their heart stent. However the production of ePTFE isn't an environental free lunch & is arguably more polluting than some alternatives. Wax jackets with a cotton or mostly cotton base are likely an environmentally better alternative.

[@grettastephens1583]

Thanks for bringing in sustainability considerations in our choices of outdoor wear. The best decision we can make is to keep using our gear until the absolute end of its life rather than replacing it for something more fashionable or 5% better. Then when you finally really need a new one, consider the true cost including environmental impact. (Not saying I’m perfect in this regard but working on more conscious purchasing).

[@ColoradoStreaming]

This is really the answer right here. Buy quality clothing and keep it for 10+ years. I still have a 686 ski jacket I bought in 2006 and despite a few stitching repairs it is still in good shape. Same with my Hestra gloves I bought in 2007. Throwing out gear and especially the "Fast Fashion" trend is doing far more harm to the environment.

[@clooperman3745]

@@ColoradoStreamingMy Barbour Solway Zipper is about 42 years old, still keeps me dry, l reproof it when required and still in perfect condition, yes it is heavier than a synthetic version but that wouldn't last 40 plus years!!

[@RJKYEG]

I bought a Columbia Titanium OutDry™ rain shell for backcountry hiking in the Rocky Mountains, it's not "ultralight" but it has done a good job of keeping me dry. OutDry™ doesn't use any kind of DWR and it doesn't wet out, I have found it decently breathable.

[@foxorian]

I have two G-1000 fjallraven coats (a heavy winter and a lighter all-season one) and it's a comfortable, durable, warm while being breathable material. I don't even apply the wax to it because for the short times I get hit with rain the coats shed it easily enough.

[@FutureProofTV]

That's awesome to hear, glad it works well for you and your lifestyle. Thanks for sharing, Matt!

[@apagoogootwo7552]

i got a fjallraven outer layer about a decade ago. basically just a half-zip orange hooded windbreaker. i use it for x-c skiing, snowshoeing, fat-biking, canoe camping, and i'll even throw it into the golf bag if it looks like rain. on one occasion, it soaked through, because it's not waterproof.

[@handlemonium]

I am very interested to see how a G1000-wax coated pair of shoes compares to a DWR-sprayed shoes in sleeting rain.

[@brandondegraaf]

I have a waterproof breathable jacket from Colombia made from a fabric called OutDry Extreme which does not use or need PFCs. It feels like a rubber raincoat, but as breathable as any GoreTex. Rain sticks to it, and that's fine. It never becomes saturated and clammy like my previous GoreTex jacket. Only problem is the outer layer started to peel off the hood after three years of head grease. Guess I should wear a hat under the hood. Still kept me mostly dry all day in torrential rain.

[@claritean]

it is a cool design, I have one too, wish it would last longer as shoulders and back are peeling off, even the outdry logo now... probably wont buy again

[@qranked]

Me too. I've used my Outdry over many ski seasons now. Doesn't need re-treating ever and just does its job over and over. The goretex shell is in the closet unused.

[@PrimevilKneivel]

I switched to a Fjallraven G-1000 jacket about 5 years ago because I was tired of replacing my Gore-tex jacket every couple of years. I wax my new jacket twice a year and it's aged very nicely so far. I've been so happy with it I grabbed a pair of pants when I found them on sale. I'm happy to spend a couple of days a year maintaining them. The pants are only for camping, but I've been wearing the jacket as my main shell for 5 winters now and it's fabulous. recently learning about the issues with Gore-tex has made me happy about my decision. I don't feel bad about my Chillcheater Gore-tex socks, but I know they will last me forever and that's one situation where I need absolute waterproofness.

[@FutureProofTV]

Happy to hear your G-1000 jacket has served you so well! It's definitely to be analyzed on a case-to-case basis which is why we tried not to be so black and white about it in this video - we're just glad to spark discussion about this material on our platform. Thanks for taking the time to share + join us here!!

[@c4l1f0rn143000]

every couple of years??? i am an alpinist and have never had to replace any item except through rips, what are you doing that needs to replace every couple of years?

[@manylch7964]

Very good video. There is no one size fits all outdoor activity clothing. I have both modern Goretex jackets for skiing and running and but for hiking and trekking I favor my Fjällraven G1000 jacket and hiking pants which I have had for 40 years and they are still going strong. Yes, I do have to rewax thoroughly every couple of years and it is heavier than modern Goretex gear but it is incredibly strong and robust. Some pocket seams started to gave way after 25 years but could be easily restitched by hand. I have used this gear in thorny backcountry, bushwacking trails, forest hikes and alpine treks. Modern stuff would have ripped during some of the rougher trips. It is very well suited hiking in forests or wild country camping and completely machine washable without concerns. So if you are someone who tends to be hard on your equipment then its worth considering and keep the lighter weight gear for less aggressive environments.

[@ViveSemelBeneVivere]

Great presentation. Gore-Tex fabric is not designed to be waterproof or even water-resistant (those mean different things) it's designed to be a breathable layer between an outer and inner usually polyester fabric, hence the fabric's millions of tiny small-than-raindrops pores. So the main purpose of Gore-Tex is to let condensation (sweat) out and keep the wearer dry from that perspective. Then the water-resistance is actually achieved with DWR - as you say. But this will function as intended only if the Gore-Tex pores are not blocked by grime. Which is why Gore-Tex jackets must periodically be washed, thoroughly dried, and then treated with DWR - as you say. Only then will the "magic" work - the Gore-Tex layer's pores will let condensation out and the outer fabric's DWR won't let water in - for a while anyway - until the DWR wears off sooner or later depending on extent of jacket use. And when the DWR wears off, in comes the rainwater. It's unavoidable that any water-resistant natural or synthetic fabric will require periodic treatment of some sort e.g. cotton wax jackets require periodic rewaxing. I love my Barbour waxed cotton jackets (Bushman and International) and this presentation makes me consider a Fjällräven Eco-Shell as a shell jacket for hiking.

[@peijae1]

Living at 9000ft in the mountains of Colorado, I decided to test a single pair of Fjallraven Keb G1000 pants daily to see how the brand can perform long term. After 3 years and six months of everyday wear in a harsh climate, the pants have a single small 1 inch sewn rip on one knee and simply won't wear out. So, I retired them to work duty and finally got a second pair. For maintenance, I wash them every two weeks and wax them every few months with several thick coats of Greenland wax. Results: The best pants on earth; breathable yet stretchy, keep my legs warm and dry, protect from brambles and abrasions on the trail, resists fire or campfire sparks, still fit great and feel like armor after a fresh wax. And unlike my clammy Gore-Tex gear, G1000 won't go up in flames with a single spark🔥

[@NitroBoarder17]

liar

[@peijae1]

@@NitroBoarder17 If you live here in CO, id be happy to meet and give you my 3.5 year old pair for free. All truth

[@ms-jl6dl]

As someone who transpires heavily even when walking/cycling, Gore-tex has been a godsent to me. And I use it at work too (construction) when weather's bad. Obviously most viewers here are office workers. And FjallRaven is too expensive.

[@thankmelater1254]

way overpriced and you're only buying ugly

[@ph-vf5hx]

@Thank Me Later lol

[@kfas83]

Well overpriced

[@Rommer2258]

The Gore-tex jackets hold up to almost anything. I was issued a jacket in the military and used to work on aircraft 10 months of the year, it's held up to oil, grease, grime, and the elements for 8 years before It was done for. I'd like to see these hold up to that.

[@ms-jl6dl]

​@@Rommer2258It's not a heavy duty jacket. It breaths. Nock-offs are cheap and equaly good/bad. I have a heavy-duty treated cotton work jacket - it absorbs,not repels water and I had to use PVC/vynil raincoats - they're garbage,in15 minutes I'm wet from the inside.

[@gs5480]

In NZ we've been using oilskin as wet weather gear since the 1800s. When the material loses its water resistance we just reproof it with wax. Old school and very effective.

[@pieter-basbeijer5781]

And why does nobody use it anymore? Because it smells, it's 5x heavier than a synthetic jacket, it takes days to dry when fully wet.

[@gs5480]

@@pieter-basbeijer5781yep a lot of people prefer goretex for those reasons. But oilskins are still popular here for different reasons. The heavier material is more durable and less likely to tear when it gets snagged on a branch when walking through thick bush or caught on a nail when working on a job site. And for those that would choose a piece of outdoor clothing for the smell should probably stay inside where they won't get wet and muddy lol.

[@felixbechtoldt]

Very interesting! My wife needs a new jacket and I was pushing her towards patagonia but now I will check out Fjallraven too. Thanks Levi!

[@FutureProofTV]

Thanks for taking the time to be here with us, Felix! ✌️

[@handlemonium]

There's also "always air permeable" Goretex Pro alternatives like eVent, NeoShell, and Futurelight as well as DWR-free "inside out membranes" like Outdry and Shakedry Trail. Despite the toptier performance ratings of Goretex Pro I believe it is only most breathable in rainy conditions whereas eVent-Neoshell-Futurelight lets more air vent through all the time. The only downside is that you might need to wear an extra layer when it's cold out to compensate for the extra permeability. The idea behind membrane-out alternatives like Outdry (twice as thick as Shakedry) and Shakedry Trail (more durable than standard Shakedry) is an outfacing waterproof material that never wets-out and never needs a application of DWR. I own both eVent and Outdry jackets and in my experience the Outdry jacket is by far the best when it's cold, pouring, I need something that can take a beating since the material is functionally "breathable leather". Honestly the best when it's sleeting here in Cascadia. It's also super easy to clean too since you can just wipe mud, splatters, and residue off with water or a Clorox wipe as opposed to running it through the washing machine. The eVent jacket on the other hand I always keep on hand during the Spring and Summer since the extra breathability helps me not sweat as quickly when it's warm out, but is still really great to have during a light rain or brief downpour.

[@anmordal-swe2203]

Never heard someone butcher the name "fjällräven" like you! 10/10

[@smallbeginning2]

I've had the same goretex raincoat for nearly 20 years now. Still looks good.

[@fedegoeswoods3142]

I'm definitely a Fjällräven fan. Unfortunately it took me many years to get here, but better late than never. I think the biggest problem with them though is price. Often their gear is even more expensive than Patagonia's, so normal people won't go for that.

[@oscarsundevall7281]

I`ve had a keb eco-shell for years. Worn it through storms and all kinds of weather. Works great and is highly water reppelant, almost water proof.

[@Dudebk420]

Couldnt be happier with my Viddas pro pants. Fjallraven gear is expensive, but the quality is definitely worth it. I plan on slowly upgrading my camping clothes over the next few years, and knowing how eco friendly fjallraven is just makes it easier to buy their products.

[@andreasjensen8451]

But one thing you can't forget... Fjällräven's patent company finex outdoors, is owned by the fjällräven family. They have the band Tierra that uses GORE products like everyone else. It's not like they are cheap either, the best Tierra stuff is arc'teryx price range. Fjällräven is just the glory brand sometimes

[@krimke881]

Exactly! And might I add; fashion is never gonna be environmentally friendly.

[@pinchiyorch]

“We need to evaluate every function to determine if it is worth the environmental impact”. Love it.

[@KoiraStar]

Can you do a video on Nikwax? I've used their DWR because it says it is better than others and has less environmental impact, but I would like a deep dive on this. If I do need to re-treat my rain coat, is Nikwax the best product to use, or is there a better option out there?

[@cjod33]

Worked with my cousin down in Antarctica sampling the sea floor. Basically making lots of coffee.. In the early nineties we were finding micro plastic of all sorts in the mud, in large amounts! Wasn't part of the job we were doing so wasn't concerned about it by the supplier of funding.

[@meeslandman]

Was planning in buying myself a “proper” arc teryx rain jacket this year, but you might have just changed my mind here. The fjallraven sounds some much better in every way possible, durability and sustainability. Thanks!

[@philipcamp1370]

The Canadian stuff is apparently way better than the Chinese versions . No surprise there .

[@revan552]

I have Gore-Tex for my "emergency survival" gear set-up; where it's absolutely imperative I stay dry. For everything else, Fjallraven has been my go to for years, and has never once disappointed me.

[@stonew1927]

Never heard of this company before. Glad it exists and I'll be searching them out when in need of outdoor gear....

[@shutterfish]

Fjällräven Ecoshell is used also by Houdini shell jackets and pants. The mix of cotton/polyester is common in many other fabrics. Swedish battle uniform M90 for example. Lundhags, Haglöfs, Norröna also uses same blend in some of there garments…

[@Gieszkanne]

Norröna has the mix reversed 65% cotton 35% polyester. But there is also Sasta. And all have something common, they are very expensive.

[@kayasper6081]

Very interesting, I even didn´t know that it is that bad for the environment. But I do know Goretex is not for me anyways; I twice spent a little fortune on really expensive hiking boots, both proudly equiped with Goretex. Here´s the thing; they both failed horribly! Even when still new the water came in, loads of it. But in hot seasons they are very sweatie, nothing is breathing there. In the end I threw both pair of boots aways, in spite of the big investment they took. Goretex, never again, it seems like just a hype which inexperienced outdoor shop employees like to sell. At the other hand, I am very happy with almost any product I have (quite a lot by now, actually) from Fjällräven. Really great gear which takes a beating and is very durable. Thanks for your video, it opened up my eyes even further about Goretex.

[@bunba_77_15]

Ventile fabric is the way to go. No chemicals but natural waterproof and will last a lifetime.

[@brianblack138]

I bought a Gore-Tex shell from TNP and paired it with a Arcteryx fleece in 2007. I’ve worn it since then as my rain jacket, my ski jacket, my cold weather shell, etc. when I got a rip, I slapped an adhesive patch on it. Never retreated it and it works fine without leaks. However, I more frequently wear a waxed canvas jacket and even it works fine for most rain. The one issue though, is weight. My waxed canvas jacket is heavier dry, and absorbs more water in the rain to become even heavier. Yes, you are going to sweat in Gore-Tex faster than the moisture can vent out of the fabric, but that’s what vents are for. I guess I’ll wait another 17 years and see which one is still keeping me dry.

[@ASelman]

Ventile fabric still works extremely well and fulfills your requirements admirably. It is very comfortable to wear, although a bit heavier when dampened and more expensive due to the costs involved in growing and weaving it, but it is very durable and long lasting.

[@martinaston1715]

Invented in Manchester !

[@thankmelater1254]

..brought to you by the magic of....fluorocarbons. " Organic Ventile® is a version of Ventile® fabric which uses paraffin wax in place of C6 fluorocarbon as DWR and the raw cotton is organically grown. Compared with non-organic Ventile®, it has a slightly lower hydrostatic head, increased water absorption and no oil repellency. Organic Ventile® may not be the right choice for some applications such as professional use however many of our customers have a concern for the environment and will be prepared to accept less performance and more careful care. We are developing and testing garments with Organic Ventile®"

[@pedroisaac2850]

For years I've been a mountain equipment, montane , mountain hardware fan boy but recently switched to fjallraven and very happy thus far

[@novideostoday]

I'm sure it's okay if you like to spend a lot of money for clothing and get wet :D

[@Leightr]

Having spent the 90's backpacking in the North Casacades where it was just assumed it would be raining the whole trip, when I got my first gore-tex jacket (I'd used cheap PVC jackets and ponchos before that) It really did seem like a miracle fabric.

[@straighttalkingexotics9367]

I go out for day long walks with heavy rain lashing down from all directions. I wear a waxed Barbour Beaufort. It’s hard wearing, it can be repaired if it’s ever torn, and the internal liner can be added when it’s cold, or taken out when it’s warm.

[@-----REDACTED-----]

Greenland wax can be inexpensively made at home. The most common recipe is 90% paraffin wax and 10% beeswax. Melt and mix together in a double-boiler setup, pour into a mould, let harden and there you go. Also personally I had good success with silicone based waterproofers for textiles. Furthermore, Fjällräven’s wax approach is not new. Just look at the classic English waxed jacket (most famously known as the utterly overpriced Barbour jacket made by, well, Barbour).

[@shanek7053]

Just want to point out that unfortunately paraffin wax is petroleum based.

[@rogierius]

@@shanek7053 what is your point? Petroleum based products are everywhere. Is there a 19th Century outdoor brand that only uses linen, cotton, flax and leather?

[@aniquinstark4347]

@@shanek7053 So is the plastic in the device you posted that on. Your point?

[@ae2948]

@@shanek7053 Wanted to add - G-1000 is ALSO petroleum based ( its part polyester).

[@JimGreenFootwearOfficial]

Reall loving the videos lately, keep up the great work🙌

[@FutureProofTV]

Thank you, glad you like them!! ✌

[@craigdavies1747]

Great way for fjallraven to think but they are pricing themselves out of the market they want to improve. As I stated I love my G1000 trousers but they are a luxury at £140 here in the UK and my Berghaus goretex coat was £120 compared to the £260 fjallraven equivalent. Perhaps they should bring production back to Sweden for a start.

[@franticjack]

This is my favorite new channel, there so much useful and cool information. Keep it up!

[@ericpmoss]

Schoeller has/had a fabric whose fibers (IIRC) swelled with moisture, basically self-sealing, and returning to breathable as it dried. Not the same effectiveness as GoreTex, but still pretty neat.

[@martinerhard8447]

so the more you sweat the less it breathes?

[@wildchild795]

I have a Fjallraven Keb jacket, no wax or DWR, and although not waterproof by any stretch of the imagination, it kept me 100% dry in a VERY hard downpour for 3-4 hours straight, while walking the whole time in an exposed urban environment. I didn’t overheat or sweat at all. And I use it as my windbreaker, great product

[@equiusoceano8493]

I got a pair of past season g1000 for the last of my first snow season, and I liked it better than our standard issue Mammut snowpants, and ski patrol (who got actual gore-tex) had worn theirs out faster, and I hadn't even used their greenland wax. I'll be slowly buying these up and building my wardrobe for everything with it, and I love the earthy tones too.

[@isveryniceyes]

I used to work for Fjallraven so I have a lot of their stuff, I was always impressed with g1000 in snow. Wish they had a reasonably priced waterproof line. They have a lot of cool shit but dropped the ball with a lot of stuff too.

[@jefwesb]

While in the army, I used the Greenland Wax on my cotton-polyester uniform. We had a cheap Gore-Tex uniform too, but it was horrible for most high intensity use cases. I only used it while on watch in the most heavy rain days. Protips - use baking / oven paper and an iron to "melt" the wax into the garment. Apply wax twice and iron the wax between each layer until you can no longer see the white residue. This will greatly increase the longevity of the water repellant effect, as long as you do not machine wash your clothes above 30°C (86°F).

[@clooperman3745]

@@jefwesb Would a hairdryer work? This is what l use when reproofing my Barbour thornproofs.

[@rei_cirith]

Certainly, if you're just walking from the mall to your car or even car camping there's no need for Gore-tex, but if you're backpacking it might be "necessary." As a 110lb person, trying to keep my pack weight safe is already a struggle, every little bit helps. I've been in situations where my jacket soaked through, I was hours from any kind of shelter at close to freezing temperatures... I had to push harder than I probably should have in slippery conditions just to stay warm. It was not fun.

[@vanmore5124]

Same here. Extremely dangerous. Glad you made it.

[@baileys6346]

I purchased a goretex jacket and it's incredibly useful in the fact that I'm going to sell it on ebay for more than I originally bought it for

[@rickpostdp]

I totally agree. A lot of brands through marketing make us all believe we need to buy the best Gore-Tex clothing, while in fact almost nobody actually need gear that is so extremely protective. If you think about it the outdoor clothing industry is kinda a paradox in a way. We love nature, so we go out in nature while wearing outdoor clothing that while being produced harmed nature itself. I really appreciate Fjällräven's way of thinking about this. More brands (in any industry really) should think like this.

[@FrankSchweppe]

I actually own two Fjällräven jackets that are made from GoreTex (and branded as such on the sleeves, along with their Fjällräven fox). One of those is a pure classic 3-layer GoreTex hardshell. So at least for a good number of years they used the stuff like everybody did. Maybe not today, but it certainly was not always a principal matter for them not to use the stuff. Maybe it's just cheaper to use their own solution (or something the Asian factories their gear is now made in, came up with) and they have woven a green communications web around that. Maybe I'm just cynical.

[@troysgt]

I am also cynical, so I get your point. But I have also gone through a lot of (I hope) growing these past few years. And I hope companies can too. So maybe they were using it, and then learned about some aspects of the company, material, production, whatever… (I’m still ignorant about gore-Tex issues that are referenced here) and then made the change. Here is too hoping.

[@Melanie-Shea]

Black diamond has been making very interesting garments the last few years that use a pfc free DWR that does not need reapplication. It’s by GTT and it is bonded to the fibers of the jacket instead being washed or baked in. So far mine has been holding up and I haven’t felt the need to apply DWR.

[@333Anvar]

One thing I like about Fjallraven company is that their hiking tents are not covered by anti-inflamable chemicals that cause cancer. That's why kudos to them for this!

[@khewco8322]

On a trip to Sweden I bought myself a Lundhags jacket and trousers that are 100% recycled and PFC free according to their site. I believe they are also treated with a PFC free DWR. It has a soft inner layer so it doesn't feel sweaty next to my skin. I bought it to replace a Fjallraven Greenland original jacket that I got tired of getting really wet in when it did anything other than spit rain. Its probably not as rain proof as some products but strikes a good balance for me for general wear and walking in Northumberland.

[@gate2soumyajit]

i am binge watching all of your videos and subscribed. great content i dig it very much. specially the research was done to make this possible. You as a presenter have a nice jolly funny way to present so i get super glued to the content. Bell has been rung, cant wait for the next product.

[@BenRangel]

When it comes to buying to last decades I think repairability is key. Sometimes it's mainly about aesthetics - repairing a rip in synthetic fabric isn't gonna look great. But you can get away with an old patched up g1000. I think the reason garments are tossed mostly is details liken broken zipper, rips, frayed ends, seams, or it gets ugly by some smear or burn from an ember. repairs can be expensive too and look quite lame if they don't use original parts. I think offering cheap repair services in stores would be the best thing to ensure longevity. Some offer a days a year with free gore tex repairs to however many customers who make it. I thibk Fjällräven has wax application days in some stores. Some jeans brands offer free repairs forever. (I assume it's not a huge burden since most customers probably forget it and buy new instead)

[@LairdDavidson]

I have a pair of Fjällräven pants and they are made with their Hydratic technology, which is basically their version of GoreTex. They are 100% synthetic. Fjällräven make plaid shirts that cost a fortune and are made of synthetic materials. I can get a similar shirt in Merino wool for around the same price which is totally natural and better in my opinion. I think Fjällräven are overstating their eco credentials as most of their gear is synthetic.

[@sportvante]

Top quality production! Very professional! Also... I wanna go out and buy a fjällräven jacket right now!

[@idraote]

I am the emperor of lazy couch potatoes but even on the day I decide I have to become active, shed weight and do some trecks in the open air, I seriously doubt I will visit the extreme places shown in the video. Even the most active people in search for solitude don't need to climb up to the ice-covered top of a inhospitable mountain chain. For me Fjällräven's philophy of "I don't need all the newest features and gadgets, my garment just needs to be good enough" is spot on. Sensible. Adult. One should be buying outdoor clothes because one wants to be outdoor, not because one needs to show off and feel good about how well-geared one is.

[@FutureProofTV]

So true, there's such a culture around buying the biggest and the best when companies like Fjällräven offer alternatives that work just as well for what most people need. Thanks for taking the time to share with us!!

[@Chasing-the-outdoors]

I don’t disagree, but it does bother me that their prices are the same, if not more, than the “cutting edge” technology out there.

[@tubulzr]

For daily use in autumn, winter and early spring, I love my Skogso jacket. It's comfortable and somewhat rain resistant. For it to be actually close to water resistant, you would need to wax the crap out of it though. When doing multi-week hikes in rainy conditions, I'll gladly wear my Goretex jacket. Yes, it needs beading properties/DWR on the outer shell for it to retain breathing capacity. Depending on the level of abrasion during use, you'll need to freshen up the DWR layer. In my experience, a Nikwax treatment will last for a couple of months. It all depends on the level of abrasion though. There is not that much need for 'Goretex-drama', buy a bottle of Nikwax, bio-degradable, non-toxic DWR (or whatever DWR product you like) and voila.

[@elvagar]

The thong is ... fjallraven is still more of a fashion statement in my country. In practical terms I can buy high quality gore tex waterproof jacked for half the price of fjallravens weather resistant jacket. And the thing is my philosophy is that i should always be prepared for worst case scenario. Sure most of the times when it starts raining on a hike it is okay just to live through it . The thing is if you get injured and storm comes really waterproof jacket can be the difference between life and death. But yeah to walk my dog in a park fjallraven would be nice.

[@whengrapespop5728]

Yes, the thong.

[@jockneyranger]

And Paramo, a British company of 30 years that also shuns goretex and produces incredible outdoor gear. Paramo & FjallRaven are my go to for the outdoors

[@timraimy9567]

I’d love to see you do a deep dive into the company Norrøna. According to their website, they plan on phasing out PFC from their line of clothing by the end of 2023.

[@gdoldays9964]

Great gear!

[@timraimy9567]

@@gdoldays9964 I’ve never used their gear, or even seen it in person. I forget how I got introduced to the company. It’s the type of thing where I don’t need to replace the rain jacket I have now, but when I do Norrøna is an option I’m considering.

[@gdoldays9964]

@@timraimy9567 Really well made gear. Expensive, but you really get what you pay for. Paramo make some great gear also 👍🏼

[@timraimy9567]

@@gdoldays9964 I haven’t heard of Paramo; I’ll check them out!

[@martinsaunders2942]

Back in the 1970s Royal Navy Fleet Air Arm pilots and aircrew were issued with immersion suits…to keep you completely dry when in the sea..just like a light weight dry diving suit. The immersion suit had a diagonal waterproof zip from shoulder to hip to get into the suit, and rubber wrist and neck seals just like a dry suit. The fabric of the suit was made of a very tightly woven breathable cotton….this material would instantly swell as soon as it got wet, rendering it completely waterproof.. literally, no water would enter the suit, neither did the air in the suit escape. I was always surprised that this material never became commercially available…I guess it was simply too expensive.

[@mikesaunders4694]

It’s ventile….you can get some jackets made with it

[@theom7476]

I love my fjallraven clothes, but the g1000 isn't waterproof and only a little water resistant. The main advantages of it are its wear resistance and how quickly it dries

[@MrMoekanz]

have you waxed it?

[@FlyinRyanProductions406]

Put a few coats of wax on it and it is.

[@Backs4more]

@@FlyinRyanProductions406 I have put so much wax on my trousers (vidda pro) that they can stand on their own, but they are not waterproof, not even close.

[@nicholasg.3585]

I mean, they never claimed to be waterproof, and the water resistance is definitely good when waxed

[@guidlines]

When you go to the footy on a cold winter's night & rain is forecast & then it pours for 60 minutes, that's when you are glad to be wearing gore-tex. Other "waterproof" jackets I have worn have soaked through after 40 minutes or so in such heavy downpours.

[@sebastianestrada4690]

I have been doing outdoor sports for some years without much money and when I started I always fantasized with having a really nice gore-tex jacket. As I didn't have enough money I just kept on going with basic gear. Some ultras later, having climbed lots of mountains and an Everesting event in my country I haven't really needed goretex for any of that. Now that I have the money I don't plan on getting anything goretex because I agree with what you said. I hope more people in the outdoor sports world start accepting that goretex is overkill for most events and activities.

[@garyzimmerman6367]

Great video! Would you do a video on REI. I’m curious if they are as environmentally friendly as they say. Thanks

[@tightlines9873]

Some good info here, though I'm unsure why the focus is only on Fjallraven. Lots of companies now use their own proprietary waterproof membranes (without PFC-based DWR) instead of GORE-TEX.

[@knowltonthomas]

because he is not an outerwear expert

[@rogierius]

Examples of said outdoor brands?

[@knowltonthomas]

@@rogierius Dermizax competes with goreTex and stomps on waxed cotton. Technical outerwear brands such as Orage utilize their technology.

[@tightlines9873]

@@rogierius Patagonia, The North Face, Paramo, Buffalo, etc

[@stantheman5163]

I own a 20+ year old TheNorthFace Guide Parka with a Gore-Tex lining that still looks brand new. I purchased it for skiing in the Canadian Rockies which frequently sees high winds and storm conditions. I call it my armor layer as it is absolutely wind and water proof. Yes, I have reapplied the DWR a few times over the years, but I love the performance. I also own several Fjallraven pieces which I love. They are fantastic for all other outdoor needs. I don't reapply the wax as it is not needed in my opinion. If the weather is that bad I use other jackets with more water resistance. I don't plan to purchase additional G-T garments, but I am glad I own the Guide Parka for the times I am going to be doing activities in pouring rain or snow for more than a few minutes.

[@monzarace]

For a long time, I've been wanting something else than a Goretex hardshell. But that is hard, I'm, sorry to say. I think we need a little reality stuff here. So, I use for example Fjällräven long pants and shorts as well, and may I say without the wax. NEVER wax their G1000 variants, as they just become sticky, slimy and overall nasty, without waterproofing very much. NEVER again. It's very nice to talk about the bees and not chemicals and what not, and wrap that into a spin of helping the Earth as it's already destroyed by us, before we were even born and doomsday is near, but it doesn't change the hard facts. Secondly, I own all their Bergtagen backpacks and while a bit heavy, they work really well, , and to this subject, is pretty water repellant, NOT waterproof. Always use a liner or just one or two black plastic bags inside. But all is not good with Fjällräven Bergtagen. I also have their most expensive hardshell, the Bergtagen Eco-shell. Okay, so it's a bit heavy, it's well made for velcro and zippers, and it's very silent to move around in, MUCH contrary to the near horrendously loud Arc'teryx, but the hood could be better shaped, both with and without helmet. And the Bergtagen Eco-shell seems to catch holes pretty easy in real life (not a mall-trip), and it is NOT by ANY means waterproof, despite 5 applied layers of Fjällräven's own DWR. That's their top hardshell jacket for near 800 usd in my country. I bought it thinking it to be the hardshell to rule them all in real life challenges outdoor, but boy, was I wrong. So, as they say: it's not needed to be totally waterproof, but then I say how about not testing this in warm rain, but cold rain for hours and hours of rain. That will change your mind. It's all nice to sit in Sweden or sunny California and design something, and make a nice walk in the snow in light frost and make the jacket work well. But it's totally a different thing when weather is challenging. If I am on a mountain and it rains for many hours, and I carry stuff and strive to reach a camp, my tent, a hut or similar, I want o be dry. Wet and cold may be dangerous for obvious reasons. Sorry, I like my Fjällräven gear, more so my Kajka 65L backpack, but none of their gear is by ANY means waterproof, when it SHOULD be! Not worth much to be honest. To put it into perspective, I also have a The North Face hardshell (one of the better ones) in Futurelight, and it's PURE CRAP in rain. It wets out in 5-7 minutes. It does dry in 15 minutes of wind and walking, but then you're soaked underneath. Not worth ANY money. Do I believe that TNF developed it to make a better alternative, while more venting, to Goretex? Not for a minute. They made it for boosting their profit, because they don't have to pay Gore any money. I'll get a Mountain Hardwear Goretex Pro before my next trip in September. Hopefully that's better. What do you think a soldier being outside all the time taking cover for the rain in just his sleeping bag and a bivy bag cover thinks? Would it be "oh, I like to get wet and sick" or would it be more like the lines of "I didn't get wet in this 3 layer Goretex bivy bag, thankfully". Make up your own mind. I think it's time that we tell the truth, not a commercial in a warm studio, spiced up with nice storytelling and pictures of bone dry smiling people. there are many other real life stories to tell from the outdoor industry, but that's for another time, not relevant to this specific video. So, there you have it. Kind regards. ps: I also have a hardshell jacket from Lotus cars, and it resembles an Arc'teryx Alpha SV, but in an even better material, and really waterproof and venting just the same as all the others. I cannot tell who made it for Lotus Cars, as it's not in their programme any more, after some new chinese owners came by, but it's also a bit loud to wear. Now that is one good jacket, but doesn't carry the features I want for a mountain trip.

[@grantbratrud4949]

Wool that still contains its lanolin (whether spun, knitted, and then felted, or just felted as a piece (or a form) of felt) is water resistant, breathable, retains its insulative properties when wet, and is even fire resistant. (Nonetheless, use care when drying socks and mittens.)

[@davew8841]

I think they are as good as their hype. I bought a Sarek winter jacket and some warm trousers for my first trip to Iceland in 2015( I'm Australian, by the way.. )....and while I've only used the jacket the following year, when I returned there( also, because I'm in Australia.. ), I've added quite a few more pairs of their various trousers to my wardrobe, these days. They are expensive....but, are just so functional and well made! I don't own a car, so I get around either on foot, or by motorcycle. Being water resistant, with plenty of pockets...and even stretchy for some models...it's like they were made for my lifestyle.

[@tettychristina962]

Arc'teryx replaced my Canadian built jacket with a new China made one, glue used fails in equatorial climes. The former fit like tailored, new one I'll fitting. Gore Tex is and Teflon produces forever toxic wastes. Glad there is a better future product. For our kids planet.

[@simongruber8316]

Great Video! A thing I want to add is the monopoly of the shell market that the Gore Brand had for a long time. That is a factor why so many outdoor brands chose to produce their own membrane, TNF with Futurelight, Salewa with Powertex and Patagonia with H2No. I am sure lots of other brands will follow this trend. Still as a person that lives in the Alps and basically spends all day long in the mountains all year long, there is no membrane that comes close to GoreTex-Pro. Though I understand your point that not every person that live in Vancouver and experiences some slight rain now and then needs that level of protection. All in all Great Vid :)

[@pieter-basbeijer5781]

Their eco-shell is nothing more than a Gore-Tex clone, to avoid using Gore's PTFE monopoly. To think they did this for environmental reasons is just hilarious.

[@sdemosi]

Many brands use a rebranded version of Toray's Polyurethane based Dermizax as their waterproof breathable membrane. They haven't designed their own membrane but use a product they rebrand as their own & for less cost than Gore. Electrospun membranes such as Polartec Neoshell, North Face Futurelight and Outdoor Research's Ascentshell are genuinely different to GTX and Dermizax. Electrospinning can vary the breathability to give optimum venting where you need it. It's still not perfect but no shell is and there's always a tradeoff of durability, waterproofing and breathability. This is why clothing should ideally use different grades of fabric & memtwbe in different places. I don't need as much durability under my armpits as on my shoulders for instance.

[@stevekane4922]

I used to spend all day planting trees or gathering sheep in West Scotland in a barbour waxed jacket and leggings, that was before they became a status symbol (and someone stole mine) and quality dropped off IMHO but it is possible. I can't remember getting more than a very little damp. And a day in Scotland is not considered wet until there is more water than nitrogen in the atmosphere and it's travelling sideways.

[@Elizabeth-pc2yx]

I’d love to see you talk about the more traditional iterations of waxed cotton ( aka oil cloth; waxed canvas) from companies like Filson and their tin cloth, est 1899 drizabone, (also around since 1800s), Duluth pack co, etc. I’m part of Search and Rescue in the PNW, and 90% of the time, I don’t need gortex either. I love filsons tin cloth pants, drizabones waxed dusters and Duluth pack co waxed canvas packs. I moved away from synthetics as much as possible, and haven’t looked back. Traditional wool from places like Pendleton woolen mills, Johnson woolen mills, and Filson in my opinion are superior to synthetics, Easily repairable extremely and the same clothing my grandfather built trails in. The same is true of boots, Whites, Danner, Wesco and Chippewa boots all made locally with stitchdown construction vastly outperform in almost all case their more technically advanced counterparts. As someone who has tested gortex against waxed cotton the difference isn’t as big as you would think. The difference shows up in dry time, and if you are backpacking once oilcloth gets soaked through it’s pretty hard to fully dry and heavy. This is a compromise I can usually deal with with the exception of only the worst weather.

[@kami-gun]

Its too heavy. OK for streetwear for sucks as technical gear

[@tomsitzman3952]

I have a Pendleton shirt I have been wearing since 1975. It just refuses to wear out. The old Trench coats were a gabardine blend of a blend of cotton, linen and wool with lanolin added. Damp but warm. works for me. Better than sweaty and clammy.

[@jeffreycarman2185]

7:39 when it comes to chemicals whenever companies say their products are “free” of one thing *does not* automatically mean their product is less harmful, that goes doubly for when they don’t disclose what _is_ in the product.

[@markweiss2307]

Waxed cotton has been around seemingly forever...and it works! Yes, it needs to be maintained, but what really doesn`t?

[@Veroweithofer]

Agree. Barbour jackets and coats! Last a lifetime.

[@Scubajunky]

What wax on it ? bees or Paraffin ?

[@lascellesthornton1976]

I have the bergtagen and Keb eco-shell jackets and trousers and they are both magnificent. Always keeps me dry in horrendous conditions. It also doesn’t feel like you are wearing plastic covered cardboard. Their fabrics are great. They are expensive but generally speaking you get what you pay for. I buy many brands and in my humble opinion Fjallraven are the best at clothing. The slick slightly retro design and choices of colour also mean you don’t look like your school geography teacher when you wear it in an urban environment.

[@LivvHughes]

I wash my patagonia waterproof gear in a wash called "Nik Wax' which is actually PFC free and does a great job at reproofing for my outdoor gear.

[@spontanmontan]

Be aware that waterproofing treatments you have to wash in, are killing the breathability of your garments.

[@CorinnaOnTheRun]

Me too

[@hanwagu9967]

@@spontanmontan that's a new one, considering that the purpose of washin waterproofing like Nikwax's wash-in is to increase breathability due loss of DWR. Did you read your internet search wrong?

[@30m3]

There's keeping you dry and then there's keeping you dry and comfortable. I'm a huge fan of Gore-Tex Shakedry, it's just a fantastic and functional material.

[@tavelkyosoba]

Did you all research this or just read off a bunch marketing materials? DWR has nothing to do with the waterproofing itself. Water vapor can't exchange through a saturated face fabric so the waterproof breathable membrane is not breathable if it the face fabric wets out. It also does nothing when making direct contact (kneeling/sitting/laying) with wet surfaces. The mm/h20 is an important spec for determining if a fabric will keep you dry when you make direct contact with wet surfaces. If the rated pressure is higher than whatever pressure your weight exerts, or your backpack straps exert, then it won't leak. Some people prioritize drying faster over staying dry in the first place, but your activity and weather will dictate which strategy is best. (for example, highly active backpackers or skiers don't sit on wet things as often and will make more than enough heat to drive off moisture...photographers and hunters will be sitting on wet things for a long time, not producing much heat.)

[@dogwalk3]

thanks for bringing some much needed common sense to this video/comment section, ha.

[@FutureProofTV]

Hey there, thank you for pointing this out! We've included a link to our sources in the description but we're constantly looking to improve our research and find out more about the materials we cover here. Thanks again for sharing, Alexander 👍