Bethel Redding & Modern Apostles: A Biblical Analysis

Holly Pivec and Dr. Doug Geivett join me on the podcast to talk about their provocative new book outlining the teachings of Bethel Redding, the existence of the New Apostolic Reformation movement, and the influence the movement has on the broader church through its wildly popular worship music. We discuss the Passion Translation, prayer declarations, and in this episode, I publicly change my position on singing Bethel songs in church.
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[@chrisburton8079]

As Charles Spurgeon said “ Discernment is not discerning what is right and wrong it’s discerning what is right and almost right”

[@amydamrau7122]

Yes! I have copies of this quote on post-it notes in my Bible. I have been handing them out.

[@karenwerner6560]

And that’s how the deception happens. It’s almost like the authentic.

[@Ann-ig1ss]

Thank you for this. Very useful!!

[@growtocycle6992]

There is no one on on earth who has perfect understanding of the word. None of the denominations is perfect. We must be mindful to Jesus's instruction to not disregard the followers casting out demons in his name: a house divided against itself cannot stand. I am not a member of bethel and never even attended there. I disagree with a lot of their choices, but believe they love Christ and have good intentions

[@chrisburton8079]

@@growtocycle6992 That might be so my friend, but good intentions equals good works and works based theology Is in conflict with being saved by grace through faith in Christ alone

[@ArnoldBru]

As as a former NAR worship leader, this is the best and most thorough I've heard. I believe this should go to every church in America. Thank you for mentioning the 'burnout' factor and fallout that happens when it becomes unsustainable. Also, exposing the 'prayer-less-ness' in all this circus,(by continuous declarations) is so necessary.

[@elishamiyahira4301]

Hope you are recovering through your deconstruction. Really difficult for me but wel get through

[@kimberlymurray304]

Sovereign Grace, Norton Hall Band, The Gettys, Matt Papa & Matt Boswell, Emu Music, City Alight, Sounds Like Reign, The Corner Room, and so many other wonderful, theologically rich and biblically sound worship artists are out there. We don’t need to continue supporting mega-worship collectives with their questionable theology, me-centered lyrics, and seeker-driven churches leading people to a false gospel. We need more discernment in this area and it needs to start with pastors and worship leaders waking up and realizing what these churches really believe and promote. When we play their music in our otherwise doctrinally solid churches on Sunday, we endorse the source, support them financially through CCLI fees, and let them in like a Trojan horse. Music teaches theology too. There are too many other wonderful options out there to continue justifying this.

[@elliesambrook5929]

TRUTH BOMB

[@ab-gail]

Sounds Like Reign. I see what they did there 😏

[@lookup7055]

Thank you for this list.

[@MotherRabbitsKitchen]

CityAlight is my favorite!!! ❤❤❤

[@stevenkuiper3347]

Amen!

[@catherinegray1367]

I came out of these churches after being Roman Catholic. God gripped my heart, and I KNOW that I accepted the death, burial and resurrection of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in fourth grade. I'm now 56 and didn't get out of these outfits until the plague happened in 2020. I was one of those people that prayed for Olive. Why? Because James says that the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much; however, at the same time, I told everybody that it's God's prerogative if He wants to do this. I think it's amazing that God protects us wayward little sheep with the desire so intense to learn about Him that we will go from venue to venue until we finally understand that it's all revealed right in front of us in HIS WORD. This is hard to listen to because I GET what these people are falling for. The Charles Spurgeon quote is 💯 . I'm convinced that God had a legion of angels protecting me so that every time I learned something ridiculous, I didn't adopt it but kept seeking. If you don't think that God goes after the one sheep, I can probably declare that you are sorely mistaken. 😪😪😪😪 I love my Daddy.

[@debbytopliff]

Music is a portable theology that takes root in our minds. This can be a wonderful tool of the Holy Spirit, or an insidious weapon of the enemy.

[@ChanNel-lv6we]

Well said

[@normgardner4560]

And we need to need to be able to tell the difference!

[@garypadgett7168]

@@ChanNel-lv6we a

[@annbrucepineda8093]

Someone in our church from Australia pointed to the song, "Above All". I loved so many of the lines but had felt that the last line, "And thought of me, above all." was not sound doctrine. Would that be an example of NAR influence?

[@junecleaver493]

Go back to the 50s, 60s, 70s. Music dominated the culture. It was great. It was cool, I loved the beat/music. The words totally changed the way we viewed the world.

[@wolrdp]

As a former Mormon I found myself in churches that were beginning to adopt this theology and was thinking... I just left this lie and here it is again in bright new shiny packaging 😟

[@domblack6288]

Right. Joseph Smith added to the text of scripture just Brian Simmons did.

[@nccrchurchunusual7990]

If there is a way to control ppl and get their money.... there will be those wolves in sheep clothing- the church is a target. It's wrong to drawn ppl to church with amazing music that mimicks worldly concerts only to teach false doctrines from pulpit. Also the music has become so entertainment oriented, manipulating ppl emotions & emphasizing me me me- worship is about Him, not the musicians. Roman's 8:16 says God's Spirit speaks to our spirit- not our emotions & feelings as they vacillate all over the place. Also, the Risen Christ is the head of His Church and the ministry of the Apostles & prophets continue thru the written Word so we dont need people in those positions. God grant us discernment...wisdom to lead

[@HisServant77]

Unfortunately lies know no bound of religion or denomination. The devil loves to get at the people level and introduce lies at the very person's level. So no matter where we go we will always face something like lies and false doctrine that needs to be exposed and corrected.

[@BM-fz9yc]

Girl saaaaame! I escaped Mormonism when I was 13. I recently was going to a charismatic church that used TPT and found the origin story of how it was written and my alarm bells were going OFF. I tried to warn people but they were just not hearing it. I told myself the SAME thing. It took 13 years to escape a church influenced by a false prophet there is no way I’m doing it twice!

[@jinimurray4090]

@@BM-fz9yc GOOD FOR YOU!!!! Do you read Chuck & Nancy Missler ? Get some of their books. Soooo good I wish I could connect with you I live in a Mormon owned town they control police courts everything I believe God has me here to be a light I witnessed They trumped up loads false charges threw me into solitary … no representation… finally afte I had to fire my $10,000 lawyer ( I found out he was working with the court against me) went to court alone and the judge screamed at me Why are you in xxxxxxx we do t want you here. Get OUT WHEN ARE YOU LEAVING!!!?? There’s more but Later I asked ( a stranger is that judge still here in the court? No the stranger replied “All of a sudden he went ‘funny in the head and took early retirement. I’m still here. (Alone - very alone but Hoy Spirit comforts me) thank you - please help me/others how to help LDS.

[@hellentest]

Prayer declarations are simply refashioned law of attraction for the Christian church. It really is a New Age teaching and has no place in a Christian's prayer life.

[@PropheticCoachTheresa]

Straight up.

[@paulc7190]

Nope.

[@ryanjamesc9996]

Facts! 👏🏻👏🏻

[@TBird5790]

Not correct.

[@robertburke9920]

Are not prophets assigned to correct rotten seminaries? Rotten pastors? Rotten church leaders? No? Well, enjoy the page-turner novel "Where Do We Go Now, LORD? - Burke." Enjoy.

[@mikemills188]

This is really good content and is so on point with what I struggled to define during the last couple of years until just recently. My wife, kids and myself were in a "non-denominational" church for many years. We all got saved through this church and grew up spiritually in it. This church was launched early on from Baptist roots. Over the years, it progressed from those roots into Pentecostal and then, within the last few years started leaning heavily into these "NAR" sort of teachings. Meanwhile, I was deep into serving along with my wife, even as an elder the last couple of years. A little over two years ago, alarm bells started going off in my spirit. I searched the scriptures deeply and found that a lot of the things I was hearing from the pulpit were inconsistent with the Bible. I didn't know how to deal with this for the longest time. When I finally got the courage to try to talk to our Pastor, my concerns were essentially dismissed and there was no real opportunity for dialogue. I felt like the only way was to either align with their thinking or leave. There was no path for open discussion. After deciding that it was best we leave that church, we were prevented from even attending the home group that we were so deeply a part of. This whole movement and theology sickens me. It is, as you say, heavy handed and abusive. As hard as it may seem, if you are in a church like this you should get away. If you are in confusion, you will be shocked at the clarity that will come from getting out from this kind of bondage. I love Jesus. He is all I need. God bless you for reading this to the end.

[@majamaja8136]

We thank the almighty God for opening your spiritual eyes to this deceit .

[@kimblepope8435]

I love that you allowed the scriptures to lead you. That is the key. It is a live for the truth that keeps us from being deceived. Jesus and Paul gave heavy warnings “be not deceived “, and “strong delusion would come”.

[@jinimurray4090]

Thank you for pouring your heart out. I went to a local church (not committed as you were/different situation) I loved to go to the prayer meetings. The pastor there had spent a LOT OF MONEY SENDING HIS DAUGHTER TO BETHEL SCHOOL. I was very ill with Hashimoto’s So not easily aware of dangers pit falls… this pastor had a guy from Bethel come who had a mission trip going to Ethiopia I went what a farce! I live according to bible - but the guy openly rebuked me publicly. Shamed me - they said there were healings and salvations but I saw NONE! Since the prayer meeting pastor - the last time I went after I prayed scripture- he rebuked me in his prayer after me. This NAR church is glued to bill johnson. The place I live is so far from any decent size town - so I’m Stuck going to another church (the best of all here) and they play BETHEL MUSIC! I feel strongly even tho I don’t understand properly, that the devil was angel of music and today he uses music to deceive My question is I want to go to leadership but don’t know specifically what is wrong. Please can you help me with this? Thank you in anticipation of your support

[@user-qz8ng4nk5b]

I DO see this NAR movement is a GREAT DECEPTION and Great Falling Away. There....I've said it...

[@JacquelineHahn1]

I have a similar story watched the NAR and prosperity gospel infiltrate my church and tried dialogue but ended up having to leave. I am now seeing NAR invade Protestant and evangelical churches here in Australia. A good spirit filled biblical is getting hard to find

[@melissajoy7823]

I've been to a church exactly like this. My son's went there and didn't ever invite me to mother's day dinner and the "apostle" took over my mothers car payment loan and he was late. He disrespected me and my mother so much and taught that to my son, I believe. My son will do anything they ask. They have turned him against me. It's been terrible and I could go on and on about that cult. I pray for me and my oldest son's relationship to be restored to the way it once was and more importantly his relationship with God. I miss and love him and his children, my grandchildren I love and miss them so much. My youngest son went there too and that's another story but I'm thankful for our relationship and my little grandson from him. Thank you for this video. God bless and keep you all.❤️🙏

[@Angeliccooke]

Alisa, I was a worship leader in a large church being trained to take over the role of music director. I sang mostly Bethel and Hillsong, elevation etc. God awoken me to this and I tried to work out how to compromise and stay in that church. The conviction from God to remove myself from these churches completely was so strong. I knew as much as I tried to reason and compromise to sing "just" the songs from bethel that were doctrinally sound, it was not ok. The fact of the matter is if you are influencing babes in christ and in a position of authority like a worship leader is, you are responsible for where you lead the sheep. And leading anything to bethel, hillsong, etc etc through playing their music FULL STOP, its an abomination in the LORDS eyes. There will come a time where you will have to make your choice and walk away from NAR I believe its the great falling away.

[@user-qz8ng4nk5b]

I'm thinking this VERY same thing. So I'm researching NAR. I knew something didn't set well in my spirit. So I asked GOD to show me truth. HE IS.... Actually, what I see is...the foundation of the movement is the love of money and power...promised by the Q movement...and dare I say...their God is #45.

[@shyloh1980]

ANGELICCOOKE, THAT WAS NOT GOD WHO OPEN YOUR EYE ON BETHEL MUSIC. THAT WAS SATAN !!

[@nonyabidness5708]

Whoo.... I'd be careful labeling things an abomination that are not clearly delineated in scripture. That's very concerning behavior.

[@Angeliccooke]

@@nonyabidness5708 lol you're deluded

[@Perktube1]

What's the falling away? People leaving the church or people leaving the NAR church?

[@doratyree9084]

I’m late to this conversation, but as a long time resident of Redding, there are many who leave true Bible teaching churches to go to Bethel because of the music. The music does suck people into the Bethel doctrine.

[@dessyedeeclark1144]

Wow. I have some extended family living in Redding. Time to give them a call.

[@CoralandTeal]

As a person who has tried to have this conversation about the music at more than one church, I'm crying tears of thankfulness. We need more people with platforms saying no to this music. Thankfully my current church made this decision a couple years ago without us doing more than praying (others did the coversation) but it's been so hard to feel so lonely in caring about this. I'm so grateful for Holly and Doug and a number of others calling out NAR and the churches that teach their false gospel.

[@christamathias233]

You are not alone. I've done a lot of church shopping with the vast majority of them using NAR music...but there are a few who understand the problems with music from Bethel, Hillsong, etc. Hopefully, more folks will seriously reconsider their positions in favor of the music if we are going to be honest about worshipping in Spirit and in Truth.

[@Broken_Berean]

Definitely not alone.

[@paulc7190]

I disagree.

[@victoriagubrud2373]

I actually had to find a new church that doesn't sing this music. I just left one that did and I brought it up to the worship leader and he kind of blew me off saying that even if the ministry doesn't worship God the song still does. I couldn't accept that and chose to leave even though I was actually in the choir.

[@Bishbud]

Why are we even listening to a false gospel?

[@hkgat8632]

The more "they explain" the more alarm bells are going off. Thank you Alisa, thank you LORD. Stay in prayer and in the LORD all.

[@karenwerner6560]

My mother, born in 1920 would call this “name it and claim it.” This kind of thinking has been around a long time. Just dressed up differently from one era to the next.

[@raevj]

Yeah, based on The Law of Attraction principles that have been around quite awhile under many different names.

[@kimcoleman5042]

I came out of a cult situation in which I was under the authority of a "prophet." When you said that this NAR system induces anxiety and legalism...you were so right! I came out wracked with anxiety, fear that I was going to Hell, and desperately believing that I needed to get back in order to be OK. I am so thankful that God rescued me from this imprisonment, and is doing a healing work. Thank you for sharing this really good warning about the NAR movement. It is so dangerous and damaging to people's lives and faith.

[@tonimariegarcia5772]

Music is the most powerful thing in the world, and it permeates our mind and spirit without us realizing it. I have been a Christian for more than 40 years now, and yet if I hear music from my BC days, I can remember the lyrics perfectly. These are songs that I sang from birth through age 20, and I am about to turn 70. It is the easiest way to memorize as well. Put true Scripture to music, and sing it regularly, and you will have so much Scripture hidden in your heart. ❤

[@christamathias233]

Music is the universal language and can be a powerful tool that folks can use to draw others...like the Pied Piper. I grew up WOF, spent 20 years in the New Age & later got involved with Bethel through a satellite ministry, before the Lord pulled me out of the darkness. The problem with using Bethel music has to do with their theology which is blended into their music & mostly flies under the radar. If you aren't familiar with how Bethel redefines common Christian terms, you probably won't see much of a problem with their music. If you are familiar with Bethel/WOF (now known as NAR) theology you will hear the message of their music loud and clear, sung by oceans of people who have no clue what they are saying or doing. Thank you for being willing to discuss this issue. Many churches find folks that take issue with Bethel music divisive. However, those same churches that are labeling folks as divisive have little understanding of WOF/NAR theology as a whole, therefore they can't fully understand the problems in the music. This problem makes it very difficult to find a church that does not play Bethel, Hillsong, etc.

[@MrsKeane25]

Excellent reply.I totally agree

[@mstar4150]

Spot on

[@saraz9017]

Exactly. As a worship leader I finally started to figure this out. I realized the Christian worship music industry operates as a network. All artists and main worship leaders end up writing songs with each other and crossing over theological lines with bethel, hillsong, Catholics etc.

[@PropheticCoachTheresa]

Yes, in my experience as "head prophet" In a NAR based ministry (they came out of it the first few years I was there), I found that it was VERY difficult to help people see this deception, because their HEART has to be WILLING to see it, to come out of self worship. Shows like "Chosen" also are NAR based, the "self worship" doctrine.

[@judybooth110]

The Song BECAUSE HE LIVES I CAN FACE TOMORROW and many other songs are so beautiful and have touched my life. I may not believe every thing the person who wrote song but that does not keep me from singing that song.

[@sharoncolumpsi5249]

Why? There are so, so many beautiful old hymns that have been packed away that should be sung.

[@GLRDesignsdotcom]

👍 We still sing them at our church, and in our home! 😃♥️

[@jezzamobile]

New songs bring $royalties & celebrity to their 'composers'. Explains a lot.

[@nanabear6640]

Your comment echos during Christmas time especially. How POWERFUL Handel’s Messiah all these HUNDREDS OF YEARS LATER! I pulled out old Hymnal this morning to play Noel and then noted Count Your Blessings and others. STILL powerful. The church I sometimes attend, has Bethel’s influence and Bill Johnson speaks there annually. I have only one critique as I appreciate they go after healing, miracles, the prophetic and do emphasize Bible study. I don’t like songs that don’t use Jesus name and I don’t feel I’m being fed meat. For those hardened against Christianity I see they can and have permeated hardened hearts.

[@melindamercier6811]

Bethel and such aside, and to be fair, new Christian worship and new hymns can be just as beautiful as beautiful old hymns. There are terrible old hymns as well as beautiful hymns written by people whose theology were WAY off, lol. What matters is content, not time period or style.

[@sharoncolumpsi5249]

Melinda just out of curiosity what do you consider a terrible old hymn?

[@MavMin]

My son’s widow is wrapped up in the Bethel cult and is influencing my 11 year old granddaughter. Pray she will be protected from it.

[@prov2.3-5]

Father, praying that the Truth sets them free from all deception

[@rachelstudley266]

I suppose she is influencing your grandson with good stuff. As long as I see a positive change in my grandchildren I will believe it is God.

[@MavMin]

@@rachelstudley266 there is nothing good coming out of Bethel, Redding and those like it.

[@TBird5790]

@@MavMin Abosolutely incorrect.

[@MavMin]

It is a bed of seducing spirits and doctrines of devils.

[@JohnSmith-zo6ir]

Refreshing to hear this. The backlash against these false prophets are underway.

[@janiceekarr]

Thank you for this!! Very timely as I just moved close by to Bethel and meeting many who attend there. Have been praying for discernment in my interactions with these lovely families.

[@joshwagar3166]

Doug really caught my attention when he talked about NAR beliefs inducing anxiety. I was instantly reminded of my experience with YWAM. I just couldn't understand why God wasn't talking to me like everyone else claimed. I would get up at night, pace around, flip my Bible open randomly and read whatever verse my finger happened to land on, desperate for a personal message from God. Everything was so mystical. Many leaders, after making decisions, would claim that God told them to do it, freeing themselves from any personal responsibility for their own decisions. To question the decision would either be to question God, or to call them a liar by saying that God never spoke to them, so nobody questioned. I have seen this abused many times. I'm so glad that God rescued me from that movement, especially before I was diagnosed with cancer 4 years ago. NAR/WOF have nothing helpful to say to the sick, only that sickness can never be the will of God and that you just need to believe it and have more faith. I didn't know what the outcome of my battle with cancer would be, but I knew that whatever happens to me in this life, God has an infinitely better place waiting for me. I am thankful that the Lord allowed me to survive that difficult trial in my life and it was a very humbling experience that caused me to learn many new things about God's character that I had never understood previously. I didn't know whether I was going to make it or not, but strangely, more so probably, than at any other stage in my life, I felt a peace that can only come from the Lord. I didn't know what was going to happen to me, but I was okay with that because it wasn't up to me. I knew that I was in the best possible place; in the arms of God. I no longer had any anxiety. I had learned that God is sovereign and He uses situations like this to grow our faith.

[@jaelanderson6263]

Thank you what a beautiful testimony. I'm trying find church & seeking peace. These false churches nar cause anxiety. I'm glad for this podcast & what you said. Making what real faith is more clear. Thank you. Praying I get back peace I once knew. 🙏

[@shadowprovesunshine]

Thank you for sharing, lymphoma survivor here. The Lord spoke to me through so many people during that time. Still processing it really.

[@davidwireback8621]

And I don't believe you were ever in YWAM . At least not the one that Lauren Cunningham ran. They would never teach you to pop your finger on the Bible and begin to read looking for guidance. Now I know there are people out there that was a guy told me to do this and God speaking to me about this and it might not be Guard at all. and what I know why weren't they would never teach that the leader ship has complete authority over you and that you can't question them. These two authors have been deceiving people about NAR . There is no organize group and they claim there is. The Bible clearly says that there is a five fold ministry which includes apostles and prophets.. we would never cheat that people in this position have supreme authority over your life or that they cannot be challenging anyway. Even the apostle Paul himself who had the authority to write new revelations to be added to scripture. Send it if he or anybody else preach the gospel different than the one that he had already preach let them be anathema. So you see the gospel the word of God is our supreme authority not people. Just because some people misapply some principles of healing or authority in God doesn't mean it's false

[@jillthereckless5949]

What a gift that it doesn’t depend on us! We can rest in His will. I hope you are doing well.

[@StacySelah]

As a new Worship leader of our teeny Church this issue has been on my shoulders since I started so this video couldn’t have come at a better time… thanks for posting it… keep up the great Kingdom work! Shalom from Florida 🕊🪔🕊

[@KimberlyGilkey-xw3hr]

I thank God for all of you in bringing the truth of this movement to light. In 2014 I was headed to Bethel as I was involved with many believers who followed the teachings of Bill Johnson. But, by the grace of God that part of my journey was divinely stopped by the hand of God. Today, I have been brought out of the NAR, WOF, Name and claim it teachings and have been growing deeper in my knowledge of the word of God. What is so disheartening is that many are turning from the truth seeking signs, wonders and miracles. I have yet to find a church home here in my small community that is truly biblically based. Many blessings to you all!

[@kimberlymurray304]

This is the exact quote from Bill Johnson: “Music bypasses all of the intellectual barriers, and when the anointing of God is on a song, people will begin to believe things they wouldn’t believe through teaching.” 😬

[@jenkinsbrigade9862]

Another shining example of Bill's "experience trumps doctrine" ecclesiology.

[@robertaanderson4809]

I have tried to find that quote before. Do you mind sharing how I might find that.

[@paulc7190]

The ministry of the Holy Spirit is so lacking in any church .. Bethel has been bringing back the standard, of which I have been blessed, healed and delivered through all forms of The Spirit.

[@ryanehlis426]

@@paulc7190AMEN!

[@7748bassfisherman]

@@paulc7190 Blessed how? Healed of what? Delivered to what and from what?

[@connaonna]

I love how these two intelligent people discuss the topic so calmly and always with the Bible in view. Thank you!

[@brianwestcott9410]

I was involved in this movement for two years. It wasn't fun. I am thankful for this new book in helping people to sound the alarm about the NAR. Don't let experience be your guide. Only the Word of God is infallible.

[@DonandBirdieHarms]

I LOVE your discernment!! I am teaching a women's class this summer at my church about TRUTH, why it is important and why we need to be discerning and how to be discerning. I came out of Mormonism, so TRUTH is so important to me.

[@nathalynhaynes9397]

Thank you for allowing God to do that. I am looking for a study for our women's ministry and "truth" resonated. 😊

[@MerBlack]

The music is like candy leading hearts to unsound theology…as well as to new age practices. Been heartbreaking to witness firsthand. Thankful for the work you 3 are doing! Praying loads!

[@User_Happy35]

I agree with much of what you've said. However, as long as the lyrics of the song appear to me to align with Scripture, I feel free singing it. I don't care who was involved in producing the song. I'm singing it as a way to glorify God. At least that's my intent. I don't want the anxiety that comes with worrying about the personal theology of every songwriter. I'll just humbly pray that the Lord will accept my worship.

[@carolinefransen468]

I totally agree

[@peterkincaid6406]

I pray that WITCH GOD RE VEALED TO ME 36 YEARS WHO REVEALED OUR SPIRITUAL QUEEN MOTHER JEZEBEL IN WHOSE WOMB OF WICKEDNESS ALL WERE BORN IN HER WOMB OF WICKEDNESS.....AND ABOUT 10 YEARS AGO CAME FACE TO FACE WHO WHAT AND HOW YOUR SPIRITUAL QUEEN MOTHER JEZEBELS OPERATING OVER BETHELS CHURCH. !!! ??? WHY IS THIS LADY ON LEFT DESTROYING AND CON DEMMING THAT IN WHICH GOD SAYS THAT HE WILL ESTABLISH GODS KING DOME UP ON EARTH. IF ANY ONE DOES NOT WANT TO BUILD HIS BODY OF CHRIST. UPON EARTH. THEN PLEASE FIRST GO PULL YOUR CAR APART. AND PUT IT TO BUILD IT UP. YOUR CAR. YOUR WAY. NOT .. GODS !!! IF ANY ONE DOES NOT WANT TO PLACED IN THE EXACT PLACE WHERE GOD DESIGNED YOU TO FIT..... THEN PLEASE THROW EVERY WORD DOWN. AND DO IT YOUR WAY. AND NOT YAWEHS !!! DESPITE THAT.... AS I SAID 10 PLUS YEARS AGO !!! GOD BLESS. AMEN. JEZEBEL IS ALLLL OVER BILLS *" CHURCH !! HEY. HOW DID JESUS BUILD HIS CHURCH. FIRST AS GOD TOLD. SHOWED TO HIM. HIS APOSTLES. THEN HIS PROPHETS HIS LIVING STONES IN GODS ORDER ... IN HIS CHURCH WITCH IN FACT JESUS SAID HE IS RE TURNING TO BUILD HEAVEN UP ON. !!! GOD BLESS. AMEN !!!

[@with.the.y]

Agreed.

[@LindaRamsey-it4ug]

Agreed

[@rachelstudley266]

Agreed

[@Nikki-MMG]

Yes TPT is still on the YouVersion Bible app......still. This whole topic is important to talk about!!!! I trained in Bethel Sozo healing ministry and my eyes were opened wide in the training. Being a worship leader for 4 decades, it is very sneaky and infiltrates more than many realize. My degree is in Biblical Studies and this teaching is what i would refer to as Emotionalism. I have learned so much because of this eye opening and now I have a KZbin channel combating misuse of Scripture. Keep talking about this stuff, Alisa.

[@kjpesl7311]

What’s bethel sozo teaching ?

[@johoggmusic]

Thankyou Alisa , Holly and Doug for this really helpful and insightful conversation. As a songwriter who was in the NAR environment for over a decade , I have realised how much my song writing during that time was influenced by the theology that was subtly infiltrating my thinking and understanding about what I believed to be true. I realise now that if I am going to write songs that express any aspect of theology or philosophy , I need to be sure that my written expressions are faithful to sound biblical understanding. Music is such a wonderful gift from God and most of us are wired to respond emotionally to it and that makes it a powerful medium through which to influence people emotionally and help them disengage their minds from the actual words they’re singing. Maybe that’s why I compose more instrumental music than I used to. ! Some thoughts are just to challenging to articulate. Praying for you guys in your ongoing ministries to us for which I am truly grateful. 🙏

[@catiesteas]

I wish I could like this a hundred times. The NAR is so dangerous BECAUSE it’s so sneaky. I have a wounded past with this movement that I didn’t even know about until I stepped away.

[@jeffholm3503]

Thanks for covering the passion [translation]. So many church folks have been deceived by this heretical work. Keep up the great work.

[@izuix5629]

timestamp: 44:50

[@aswhiteassnow5087]

SO many people try to pray in this decreeing manner which makes me cringe as a humble requesting posture is what we have patterned in Scripture. Let's try to correct this, CHURCH! God help us!

[@marknrobin1744]

Alisa... Thank you SO much for this episode! The more I learn, the more I realize how subtly this movement HAS influenced so many people I know. I too must raise my hand and say that for a number of years I simply nodded my head to what was being preached, or sung, or prayed and I was not like a Berean, studying the scriptures to discern if these things were truth. God in His amazing grace has pulled me from many false ideas that were espoused through these modes. Thank you to Holly and Doug for your research, your charitable exposure and for the book... I ordered it! I truly want to share this episode with many friends... praying to have wisdom if and when to do so. & for receptive hearts.

[@kyrielovesthelord]

Be brave! The sheep will know His voice!

[@c.greystone9825]

Yes that’s true. Instead of NAR (which adherents don’t call it that way), it’s just a different label such as neo charismatic, word of faith, health and wealth (Meyer, Prince, Copeland etc) new reformation (Sondergard).

[@ericw5964]

Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. II Timothy 4:2‭-‬4 NKJV

[@user-os8gd4jp7s]

Really great podcast. I'm not a Bethel attendee or do I know much about their school of miracles, but I want to focus on an important issue. Two pastors from Bethel were mentioned repeatedly in this podcast by both Doug & Holly. Before writing their book, or even before creating the podcast, did either of the three of you call or sit with Bill Johnson or Kris Vallotton to speak to them about their personal perspectives? Or did all the perspectives come from the interpretation each of you made about what you may have read? In studying scripture, which you mention in this podcast as well, context (full context) is necessary to understand and interpret the truth being presented. I believe the best way to that full, honest context is to speak directly to those who originated the thought. I realize that we don't have the writers of the Bible that we can easily access to ask for context, but the Holy Spirit leads us into the truth of the Scriptures that He authored. But, Bill and Kris are accessible. Perhaps the second podcast that youo mentioned twice, should include either of those 2 men (or both). I'd really like to hear their perspectives on the matter.

[@marisoljacobo3085]

Definitely agree!

[@janadominika]

Very good point,I totally agree.

[@melissajoy7823]

I'm glad they did this video. A lot of people can really relate to what and who they're talking about, me included. These so called leaders, Bill Johnson and Kris Vallaton and the local pastors that follow their teachings mostly are never open for discussion.

[@ajwerth7558]

Mr. Johnson’s and Mr. Valloton’s “perspective on this matter” isn’t secret. They post many many videos of their preaching and teaching and opinions. If we can’t trust that what they say in these public utterances reflects their beliefs, there’s no point in having private conversations.

[@dessyedeeclark1144]

I recall listening to other theologians who HAVE had private c onversations, and have invited public discussions. Holly and Doug were very prayerful about all of this and didn't merely leap to judgment. I will try to find some documentation for you. You might find some evidence of this respectful disagreement by reading about Dominion theology.

[@dianejimenez4040]

Amen. Thank you! Brian Simmons came to my church and had so many great prophetic words for others… and spoke over me “stay chosen”… I initially upset but I then took it as a warning from God… out of the mouth of donkeys… God forgive me! Thank you Jesus for all our experience. Jesus we pray for all of Bethel ! Save us and we will be saved… heal us and we will be healed. God help us all to be humble before you. God bless this KZbin channel! Thank you Lord for these Truth Seekers

[@karricompton]

As a worship leader for many years, to sing or not to sing these songs has been a question I have asked myself and others in the church for some time now. It’s a tough one, especially when some of the songs do not have anything doctrinally unsound. I think keeping away from all appearance of evil is wise.

[@DunderMifflin_ThisisPam]

I don't worry about it too much. Because if you throw out all Bethel music you have to throw out Phil Wickham, who has written a song with Bill Johnson, and so then Kari Jobe, Chris Tomlin, and on and on and on. Pretty soon you just have Sovereign Grace (hello, huge controversy there with CJ Mahaney) and maybe the Getty's, but if it's guilt by association then we all have to go.

[@arlyssepena-furlow2040]

@@DunderMifflin_ThisisPam I disagree. My church manages not to sing Bethel music and we are doing fine. In fact, we had a wonderful praise time this morning prior to hearing the message.

[@Weissguys6]

Don’t you copyright fees to play their music? This is supporting a false gospel. No good.

[@mstar4150]

I would strongly encourage to not song their songs. My personal experience was that my former church sang songs from Bethel, Hillsong, Elevation and I loved them so much that I started listening to their sermons as well. This is where their deceptive and false teaching crept in and it almost shipwrecked my faith. I know that many songs are "fine" but it can lead people to listen to the pastors of those churches. God bless.

[@JamesAllen-CoffeeAndTeaMan]

I think the tradition of singing "songs" for worship needs to be reviewed. I love what IHOP is doing in the sense of allowing them to be led by Holy Spirit to create new heavenly sounds.

[@janeann3331]

I'm so glad this topic was brought up. When I mention this to some of my family members, they just tell me I'm being legalistic.

[@DomsVidz]

Legalistic or religious are words Commonly used. Where Jesus never spoke against either. Mat 23 Jesus uses the correct word. Hypocrite. The Passion translation loves to use religious in a negative context and use this word 100s of time when other correct translation don't even mention or hint to these words

[@paiger6058]

@@DomsVidz Wow! That's pretty wild. That translation is sounding more and more terrible to me. I do not own a TPT bible and I never will.

[@markshaneh]

@@DomsVidz Also the passion is not accepted as a “translation” by peer approved biblical linguistic scholars. ✌🏽

[@jonahhanson38]

Same

[@kellydarrius]

@@DomsVidz "Religious" and "hypocrite" have become synonymous in our modern culture, and I believe it is well deserved. Most so-called religion is simply a deification of a glorified version of self.

[@Meat_Skraps]

The likes of Bethel teach another "gospel." I've been sounding the alarm on this topic for over a year now as well. Thank you for addressing this.

[@rommym7528]

Thank you. Being an older individual I have been a part of the "word of faith" movement and gravitated toward the NAR for a portion of my walk with the Lord. As I have grown and followed on to know the Lord He has been causing me to question much around these movements associated with the Christian church; even going so far as how I have prayed over the years. Lately the Lord has caused me to be cautious around the "decree" and "declare" forms of prayer. This is not a form of prayer I have actually practiced myself; but have been associated with many who have and do. The church my husband and I have returned to have echoed the same sentiments surrounding Bethel and Hillsong music. This has really helped me. Again, thank you much! God Bless! Will be getting the book.

[@billw.5057]

Thank you so much for this episode, Alisa. I am a pastor, and I can hardly stomach CCM music any more. We are so, so careful what music we sing in our worship services, to the point that a large majority of our songs are driven by older hymns (perhaps with more contemporary tunes, like Indelible Grace). I would love to see you tackle the whole Christian music scene, because the problem is wider than just the NAR movement. So much of music today is driven by the church "worship" band model. And so many songs are me-focused rather than God-focused. ("I praise you God because you accept me the way I am!") It's a message that leads people down the wide path that leads to destruction! I think you are uniquely qualified to speak to this issue because of your background. I believe that churches and Christians need to learn discernment, because the more these songs are elevated to "viral" status, the more they will dominate Christian thinking and beliefs.

[@lcollins4313]

Pastor Spencer Smith did some documentaries on music. He’s a Baptist Missionary. Documentaries are well researched, well done and well received. There are 3 presently and he’s creating a 4th. All can be found on YT. MessedupChurch also covered some of these high profile churches, Hillsong Christmas cabaret .

[@MarcVesseur]

I, I, I,I,I,I, 6 times you use that word in your comment. I think, I believe, I would and so on. How many times does David refer to himself in relation to his worship to God? So why can’t the people of God nowadays sing about their heart, their longing, their awe, their lips, when praising the Lord??

[@TBird5790]

@Bill W - Does your "worship" service has any life at all? You can hardly stomach contemporary Christian music? That is a very closed, negative perspective on all the thousands of songs that are written by people who love Jesus and want to worship him with all their hearts. They use the talents that God has given them to write music that expresses that love for Christ. You can hardly stomach that? I feel sorry for you .

[@johnf.1969]

I miss the old hymns. Someone said "they codify the Word of God , edify the body of Christ and Glorify God"

[@judysoroka2392]

Hear hear. I find that most pastors I’ve spoken to think regarding bethel music just think it’s a non-issue. I can barely stomach the “worship”at times at our new church when we left an Alliance church that has totally gotten into NAR etc. May God bless you and your flock as you teach truth and live truth.

[@81jlo]

Wow! This was such a great video in its layout and discussion. I began investigating NAR, Bethel music and like churches (ie Hillsong, Elevation, Maverick City, ect.) when on the drive home from church my 13 year-old asked me about the theology of a song we sang that morning. I knew it was written by Bethel (i.e. Brian Johnson) and that I didn’t agree with them on several theological issues but hadn’t looked into them. Within 9 months of reading, watching videos of sermon clips and analyzing their music I discovered what you laid out in a very concise 1 1/2 hour presentation. Well done, I am recommending this video to quickly get an understanding of the issues with NAR and Bethel.

[@drbob777]

Very very very very very very very good!! Easy and good to follow information. It shows the many many dangers and negative influences NAR has. Thank you thank you!!

[@carlawaldemar1557]

Excellent interview. Thank you so much for having them on.

[@samanthaevans9962]

Great video. And I love that you didn’t lump all charismatics in with the NAR movement. I’m not trying to discredit everyone in the charismatic church. It makes it easier to share videos like these and put this info out there with out there being a place to “brush it off” just because someone may or may not believe in the sign gifts for today.

[@alinakrohn7726]

What a wonderful episode. So full of thought-provoking simple wisdom, discernment we can receive through The Holy Spirit, by staying true to God's Word and not looking for the big neurochemical blast of being in a wooshy worship service. While I was listening I started imagining different lyrics to "Oceans" in which "may Your Will be done" and "we are so easily fooled" played heavily... Thank you Alisa, and your two guests, for such practical and valuable thoughts and evidence that we need to be Bereans in our navigation through these times. "Prophets" in my humble opinion, are often Predators, whether or not they know it themselves, and I have friends who are so dramatic about their faith and spiritual life that now I wonder if they're into NAR teachings without even knowing it... I'll continue to love them and pray for them, and for all who are trapped in this melodramatic presentation of a twisted gospel... It will be a rough road for them to return from these teachings, may it be God's Will that they do, because HE will keep them and heal their psychological wounds from their experiences! We love and worship The Great Physician, and He can heal wounded hearts better than ANYONE! PRAISE BE TO GOD for He is Mighty and ALL we need.

[@kimpants21]

I can’t thank you enough for this podcast! It was so eye-opening! I am purchasing the book as we speak and am already sharing this podcast with others. Thank you!

[@telee19]

Glad to see Alisha going on record - thanks for posting this.

[@jenkinsbrigade9862]

I had the unhappy experience several years back of attending a local, unaffiliated church that was just then starting to trend toward the NAR. I spoke privately with the pastor and one associate pastor about my concerns over Hillsong and Bethel songs finding their way into the worship sets and was essentially blown off. The pastor more or less said he wasn't interested in the doctrinal positions of the writers of the songs we sang. Shortly thereafter, one of the other associate pastors started dropping Bethel's name into his sermons and preaching obvious NAR doctrine. The Sunday on which he told the congregation that they needed to be more open to the miraculous, including raising the dead, as a normative experience, I saw which way the wind was blowing and left.

[@ryanehlis426]

Sad watching you religious people reject the moving of the Holy Spirit 😢

[@jenkinsbrigade9862]

@@ryanehlis426 We only reject false holy spirits -- you know, like the one that Benny Hinn wishes offered a holy ghost "machine gun" so he could "blow (John MacArthur's) head off." 🙄

[@ryanehlis426]

@@jenkinsbrigade9862 I love Benny Hinn and John Mac :) I have benefited from Both there teaching very much. They both should not be speaking about each other.

[@dennis9879]

What's wrong with raising the dead, or casting out demons? I don't trust NAR either. But Jesus said to walk in his footsteps. He did these things, and we should too. I have done both these things, and haven't been to church in 20 yrs. To much corruption and deciet and lies in EVERY DENOMINATION. But miracles r common around me, because I walk in Jesus footprints. Wake up, ok.. Now most tongues is demonic when tested by 1 John 41-4. So beware of that. Benny Hinn s slaying in spirit is mostly demonic also. That guy disgusts me. He needs exorcism, to get rid of false religious spirits. Most of NAR are full of Lucifers spirit, pretending to be the holy ghost . That's a fact. False religious spirits. Jesus says, many will be cast into hell, saying we cast of devils, raised the dead, why are we on hell? Because they used lucifers fake religious spirit, and refused to test and cleanse themselves using 1 John 4:1-4. Benny Hinn will never test himself. He is foul and gross. Period. Same with all denominations. Gross and foul. ALL OF THEM.

[@fnjesusfreak]

@@ryanehlis426 Actually, jenkinsbrigade FOLLOWED the moving of the Holy Spirit. If there was a spirit moving in that church it was absolutely NOT the Holy Spirit.

[@scottfarraway34]

So appreciative of this teaching! I’ve been involved in worship as a leader and a support musician for 25 years. I have had some difficulty with this movement but couldn’t put my finger on why. Now I understand more clearly!

[@bazanapancakes2406]

Whoa thank you for this! It made me take a deeper look at what I’m actually saying while singing these worship songs; I no longer want to support something that leads so many souls astray! Thank you for shining a light and opening my eyes 🫶🏻

[@cindyb7923]

The passion translation sounds alot like how Joseph Smith wrote the book of Mormon.

[@christinac.4055]

I really appreciate this conversation! Thank you for helping to expose their beliefs. Even among the most solid theological Christians, so many try to justify listening to Bethel and singing their songs in church. It’s is such an important topic to understand!

[@TBird5790]

You do realize that a lot of their songs are not written by Bethel songwriters (and not Hillsongs either) don't you? Just keep throwing out anointed worship music because Bethel sings them in their worship services. I would get a balanced perspective by watching some Dr. Michael Brown's videos. A blessed brother who has been in ministry for 50 years or so. But he is charismatic, so if you bristle at healing and the Holy Spirt moving in Christians today, well, you may already have your mind made up about that too. I hope not. because he is a very knowledgeable and theologically proper teacher. Thanks. I watch Mike Winger, who is very thorough, and shows such grace, along with The Remnant, Dr. Michael Brown, Alisa Childers, and Jeff Durbin, a Calvanist, who is a very good, and also compassionate pastor.

[@thegreenarrow8286]

Alisa I’m so excited to see how much your channel has grown. I remember working a few of your concerts and y’all where so nice to everyone. God bless

[@lilianfonjock8463]

I have been so blessed by this. Thank you Alissa fir helping the body of Christ

[@cindyszyszkiewicz4786]

Thank you Holly, Doug and Alisa!! I've got your books and find them beyond helpful in my relationship with God!! Loved the podcast and hope to see the three of you together more often.

[@willybranlund]

I wasn’t raised a Christian, I’m still struggling with liking church. However, I cannot deny that God has kept me clean & sober from heroin and meth for 21 years. A lot of churches I’ve attended still have their cliques, like school, and gossip seems to run more rampant in church then in the “world.” I believe that God isn’t worried about NAR and so I won’t be either. I’ve listened to Bethel, to Southern Baptist, Calvary Chapel and so forth and every denomination has their upside and downside. I don’t know enough about theology to cast judgment on any one Church, I’m a single Dad with two little ones, barely have time to sleep. My main point is, now what, you guys have burst open the NAR bubble, now what? It seems like a lot of people have been trying to stop Bethel for awhile but Bethel keeps growing. I don’t agree with all their teachings, however, I don’t agree with a lot of Christian churches. Most Christians pray at Church, most rarely pray for people outside the church and most Christians are only bold with their faith in church. Also, the world is SO screwed right now, shootings, the weather patterns, gender etc. I think if anything, every Christian should be trying to help one another, Christians should be uniting and praying together for this country right now. That’s just my opinion. The only thing I care about is that people, no matter what race or religion treat each other with respect. God will have the final say in the end and I am 100 percent sure God is not vexed about NAR. And if He is then we are all screwed!

[@n_l_o]

I wonder how Holly and Doug feel about Lifeway publishing their new book since Lifeway also publishes and supports many NAR/WOF teachers and musicians?

[@charlanderson6312]

Very insightful, thank you everyone. I would love a part 2.

[@glorious6779]

Thanks guys. 🙂 I've ordered Holly Pivets book. I've prayed for the last 15 years to know the truth. His been correcting my steps ever since.

[@rebeccaerinne]

I grew up in a traditional Pentecostal church and then as a teen was introduced to my current church, which began leaning heavily on NAR teaching. I'm now in my 30s and am really examining some of what I've been taught. I want to thank you Alisha and your guests for revealing your concerns in a very humble and loving way. Too often when I hear Christians confront other Christians with different beliefs, they do so in a manner that's arrogant, condemning and or just plain rude. A very well done podcast.

[@jeffdavis7543]

Rebecca I definitely agree with your comments. I've prayed for spiritual discernment since my salvation pilgrimage began, and that discernment is accomplished by studying your bible, with reinforcement spent in your prayer closet. Trust JESUS and look for His return.

[@angcyberman]

This really brought together everything that I've been seeing for a while at our church. We're stepping up our search for a new church.

[@jolookstothestars6358]

This is so important. We are dealing with this on an individual basis and with worship. Thank you all so much!!!

[@stas1kacicki392]

Finally a program revealing truth here , thank you God bless you will continue visiting here I hope you have these 2 people again

[@lottieduncan6300]

I read the book discussed here (Counterfeit Kingdom) and it gave me so much clarity and put all the pieces together of what was taking over our church. I tell everyone I can to read it! Best thing we ever did was read through the whole Bible on our own (with the Bible Recap reading plan). Best way to spot counterfeit is to know scripture for yourself! Thanks so much to these authors for all the research and work that went into exposing this false teaching.

[@edmetzger3617]

“Redefining the Christian faith”. Holly, about 40 minutes in. I think this gets at the core of the issue. Contrast with the apostle Paul in 1Cor2:2 “For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. “

[@RandomBoxingGuy]

Every charismatic church I’ve been to, even very tame ones, there’s always this sense of you can “decree” or “declare” or “rebuke” things with your words to manifest it to reality. Even if it’s not taught from the pulpit… many personnel in the congregation clearly practice and believe it.

[@annaonholiday]

Thank you for this insightful podcast. You really cleared a few things up for me.

[@caramel9244]

Thank you Alisa for exposing the TRUTH! 🙏🏾 God bless you & your ministry

[@jeffgarner3178]

She Slandered a Church.

[@KMH6290]

I know a formerly solid pastor who has rebranded his church and is hurling headlong into the NAR while unsuspecting people are following him into it. It's so frustrating.

[@jamesandhannahr.6689]

This was so helpful and timely as my husband and I have had alarms going off during discussions with close family of ours and this puts words to things they are gravitating towards. It has started to create some strain but We will pray for them and are determined to stay true to our convictions but maintain loving relationship and not let enemy cause divide.

[@lydiahuawei8207]

This is the true biblical education.God bless this individual. I've ordered the books.

[@audyharrison]

The part about having to learn how to pray is so true. My husband and I both noticed they we needed to learn how to pray after coming out of a church similar to these churches.

[@junecleaver493]

Bethel fit the criteria, long established, of a cult. People long for a place to belong. Same intent, different style. Always led by one person who have a inner circle who follow the leader without question. This movement has grown slowly, no one is having to give up their lifestyle, or believe in extraterrestrial beings. Cult leaders are usually very charismatic. Not particularly exceptional people, just have a great gift of persuading people to believe and follow them. Thank you for being so willing to speak out on this subject.

[@waynehampson9569]

A verse I use when thinking about the NAR - Unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain. Unless the LORD watches over the city, the guards stand watch in vain. In vain you rise early and stay up late, toiling for food to eat- for he grants sleep to those he loves. Psalm 127:1-2

[@dylanmilks]

Thanks for covering this topic Alisa. It's so so so important!

[@cindymckinney2895]

About 2 years back, our church decided that we would intentionally avoid all Bethel music in our very modern worship service. We exercise caution with music from some other sources. It’s not our intention to be legalistic. But rather, to the very best of our ability to use songs that reinforce right theology. You are so right - music is catechism. Just as we would avoid music written by a known Mormon, or known Muslim, or known worshipper of Ra, even if a particular song or psalm generically offers praise to God, we want to use songs that teach right theology, written by people who stand on the Word of God as our first and primary source of what is right to teach.

[@godsgospelgirl]

Thank you so much for drawing attention to these concerning teachings and the problematic Passion Translation.

[@crystalfarrow7304]

Agreed! AMEN!

[@kristyleavitt8007]

This was fascinating and so helpful - thank you! I especially found the discussion about declaration “prayer” interesting, as I used to be part of a church that taught this.

[@brenmanock]

Love these guys and the content is badly needed. Ty

[@happygirl65]

Thank you for sharing this. I’ve been praying for a friend who does not understand about the issues with the music. I can’t even share this video with her because her head is firmly planted in the sand.

[@juliannebrancadora3476]

I'm finding that most mega churches I visit do not talk about their theology. I know people who go there, and they think "theology" is a religious word, and "religious" is a bad thing to them. They value emotional experience over correct theology.

[@janegarski2557]

Thank you so much for this message! I have been learning about NAR and the music from these churches! I decided to confront my church with this as I’ve noticed that NAR music is already in the church! I’ve confronted the worship leader and she said they will only sing the songs that are theologically sound! So I’ve even tried to contact my pastor since my email is down the receptionist would not even take my phone number telling me to email him! When I told her about the music she told me that the worship leader is the person I should talk too! Even though I still wanted to talk to the pastor she would not allow it saying he was not in! I’m deciding that maybe I should not go to this church! I enjoy the teaching but it’s awkward not being able to worship! I’m going to send a letter to the pastor cause it’s his church and he needs to know about the music!

[@banjoman123]

Grateful for this discussion. I'll share it with my NAR friends!

[@cindylutz7442]

My first encounter with "NAR" was in 1994-1995, with the advent of the Toronto Blessing. I was carefully charismatic, even felt God might have revealed some things to me about church once, through a dream, when I was 13...please don't hate on me, I was reading the Bible on my own, not in a charismatic church, didn't have any reason to believe God might not answer a question I'd asked Him through a dream, and, maybe you can call it self-fulfilling, but it actually held me in good stead when I encountered my first cult at age 16, then "the new move of the Spirit," as they called it, around age 35. It was an evolution...I watched this church embrace this stuff over time, but even then, what they meant when they said "the prophet's mantle is heavy upon you," and what I would have meant were very different things. Nonetheless, even with my alleged mantle, when I questioned, I couldn't get a straight answer, and certainly my saying, "This just doesn't seem Biblical" fell on deaf ears. They really got rolling after we left, and I did attend one service at a friend's invite--I respected her and she insisted the fruit was sooo evident, it had to be "God". Halfway through that service, shortly after their guest speaker started preaching, I started to feel sick to my stomach, and though I'm not well versed in...demonology (?) I had a very strong sense they were calling on spirits, but they weren't "holy". Much angst and division happened after that, lost friends, merely because I was not going along, okay maybe trying to call it out, a little. Guess I was lucky to see it early, but it has made navigating churches difficult, as 25 years later, I could see it creeping in even at non-charismatic churches. Also, Mormonism anyone?

[@jeanboshears6689]

Just curious, Cindy, about your mention of Mormonism; how it fits into the NAR.

[@lcollins4313]

Yes. Leaving this was difficult. The purpose driven life was flooding churches at same time. I left charismatic churches , (35 years) found myself resisting any churches. I finally found John MacArthur sermons finally grounded me in solid scriptural teaching and have a passion for understanding the Word of God. Found strong exegesis of Scriptures with many other preachers too.

[@lcollins4313]

@@jeanboshears6689 NAR tight ties to WOF that teach they are gods. We are sons of God, therefore are gods. Mormons teach this. When you are declaring or decreeing, you are using your birthright as god.

[@jillianmathews3749]

Praise the Lord! I have been praying about the music for over two years since the Lord opened my eyes. Now, praying true Christian Churches create your own music. If you are gifted write it and sing it. That is my prayers.

[@spencergroup]

Your prayers are being answered. As a singer/songwriter/musician, I have started writing music that is more Christ-centered because I have issues with a lot of the music being played in churches today.

[@jillianmathews3749]

@@spencergroup praise the Lord!

[@southernsunset_farm]

This was insightful. Thank you!

[@tawnalynelle1]

Thank you for bringing to the light more clearly things we may have questioned as being unbiblical, but not studied and been bold enough to define!

[@samsamthecat492]

I'm reading it now 😃

[@Busy23Mom]

Thank you for this! I have been trying to find resources that speak to the "new prophets" in particular. It is like all of a sudden God is "speaking" to these random people on KZbin about so many things. Makes no sense and yet they have thousands of views! I will look up the authors so I can learn more because not many people are addressing this issue.

[@lindamoorhead3007]

Thank you for this vitally important warning, presented with your usual clarity and devotion to following correct philosophical principles. I'll be ordering both your book and Counterfeit Kingdom to give to my church leaders and worship leaders. I'm also praying for God's will to prevail!

[@gillgirl19]

Great interview! Thank you so much.

[@nicoleturner5808]

I stopped listening to christian radio stations because it started to seem more gnostic than christian. Thank you for all this good information.

[@janicep1508]

My husband and I were looking for a church for awhile. Almost all of them had young people as the worship leaders. The congregants were mostly 55+. They played these songs but the congregants seemed lukewarm about the worship. They had been told they had to have this music to attract young people. But it obviously wasn't working, there were no young people. It wasn't sincere, loud doesn't mean alive or inspired.

[@annelisehardegree8819]

Thank you so much for making this video! My family and I left an NAR-influenced church in 2020 and I’m still working to detangle some of the false teachings in my brain. This was very helpful!

[@pastorernestalbuquerque4770]

Hi Alisa, enjoying every part of this discussion, I'm in agreement all the views expressed. Blessed by your content. God bless.

[@dorothyhughes1061]

As someone who is now Anglican and moved there from the charismatic world, I must say that I appreciate the different streams of the Faith. As far as brush stroking all "NAR" leaders with the same brush, I must say that since a teen, sharing the gospel with Che Ahn at a juvenile detention center 45 years ago, I have seen the godly, Bible centered ministry of Mr. Ahn develop and grow with sincerity, truth, dedication, and integrity. With a PhD from Fuller Seminary, he is a well educated, devoted, and exemplary leader, husband, v and father for the glory of God. Please be careful of lumping together various leaders, who share some similar theological ideas, based on the faults of a few among many thousands. Also, concerning the "dominion" of areas influence: my understanding is that many leaders believe the church abdicated involvement in education, government, entertainment, etc, and now we are reaping that neglect. To see a call to make real difference for the gospel in the areas, is worth support, rather than denigration. Thank you for your time!

[@normgardner4560]

FULLER Seminary??? Hardly a reputable seminary anymore since Peter Wagner brought the heretical NAR into the church who is so asleep and Biblically ignorant it couldn't see the attack it is under!. Mr. Ahn is nothing that he says he is! He is a deceiver!

[@toolegittoquit_001]

Che Ang is not the believer he once was. He considers Catholics to be Brothers. This not so. There are.many beliefs held by the RCC that are wholly heretical.