All About Writing in Third Person

[@QuotidianWriter]

Hi there, viewers! You can read an adapted text version of this video on Medium: medium.com/@quotidianwriter/the-complete-guide-to-writing-fiction-in-third-person-84907eb61df7

[@buu678]

Do you plan to make a video on second prson narratives?

[@totallyanonymousbish9599]

I began writing my first novel in 1st person but after some time I got confused because in my mind I couldn't figure out if my character's actions were that of my character or would potentially be those of myself. So now since I changed to 3rd person my protagonist really feels like a different person.

[@Reneekelley68]

I felt that same way. Did you finish you’re novel?

[@codelucky]

Have you finished your Novel?

[@totallyanonymousbish9599]

@@codelucky I have!!💜💜🔥

[@codelucky]

@@totallyanonymousbish9599 That's amazing ✌️ A lot of people dream about writing but don't take any action to make it a reality. You're one of the doers among many dreamers. Congratulations! 🎉

[@totallyanonymousbish9599]

@@codelucky thank you so much💜

[@maey.elreedy]

I think that's the best KZbin channel that talks about writing, I can't find any other channel like this else where.. GREAT JOB Diane! :)

[@QuotidianWriter]

Thank you so much for your kind words! Keep writing! :)

[@InfidelProductionz]

I fell like the use of present tense in The "Hunger Games" made it feel more immediate and caused me to doubt the safety of the protagonist/Narrator.

[@TheReadingWerewolf]

I love how you use examples from real books. I find it very helpful! And I'm sure it's a whole extra effort to add to these already amazing videos!

[@b.s.3000]

I caught the little amused laugh you almost had when using “a stark difference” pun. Lol

[@wuchan8837]

Your videos are great! It’s hard to find authors that talk plainly about these things like you do. They always speak indirectly about everything. They take writing and put it high on top of some mountain and suggest it’s unreachable (except by them of course). What they say is absolutely useless unless someone is completely stoned. You, however, walk into the room and turn the light on. You lead your viewers by the hand like a mother leads her scared child around the room, looking under the bed, in the closet and in every dark corner - to prove there is no monster in the room. Thank you for your work.

[@gmaneis]

Really well stated, Wu. I think writing is terrifying, because it's so difficult. Diane, your videos do, indeed, provide a much appreciated guiding hand, but doggone it, telling a story is still horrifying!!!! :-)

[@isseahmed7415]

Man that analogy! 👏🏾

[@johnraffensperger]

No monster in the room. Except for the child herself . . .

[@jonweman6128]

Stephen King is one author who always seems to try to give advice that is actually useful and clear, rather than trying to make himself appear sage. But yes, this video series is very good, I'm on the 4:th video now. BTW, strictly speaking there are 9 perspectives in GoT, the ones mentioned here and the Night Watchman who is killed off in the prologue. Every book starts with a prologue told from the PoV of someone who is never seen again (at least not as viewpoint character, I'm not sure if any of them appear in passing), contributing to the epic scope feeling.

[@SanzuFabrications]

I don’t even need to finish watching this to know it’s gold. Keep up the great work!

[@TheCloserLook]

Another great video. Keep up the good work :)

[@Sarboi7]

Hey it’s you!

[@jennzio4470]

This video is Closer Look approved. That's an honor.

[@wesleywalkerthewriter]

The bane of all art: "out of style". The point of art is to create style. Well done on the video.

[@firstnamelastname-bu1xm]

This series of videos is fantastic. The epsiode "show don't tell" enabled me to pick up a pen and attempt to write fiction for the first time since I was a small child. So now, I'm coming back and forth to these videos, for little titbits of information. I'm basically learning as I go. Its been a lot of fun so far! Thankyou for these!

[@Be_Khaos]

Thank you! I watched your “All About Writing in First Person” video and admittedly, I wanted to write my book in the first person because I thought it would be easier to write and more relatable to the audience and myself. What I see and how I feel as I go about my journey. But, after watching this video, I realise that writing in the third person is far better suited. Describing the characters, their motivations, the dialogues and the worlds they live in through a third person narrative allows for so much more detail and insight. So hence forth, i’ll write in third person. I’ll keep in mind to have one character’s POV per chapter though. It makes sense not to jump around but your reasons for not doing it added some clarity to any confusions I had. Many Thanks, Be Khaos P.s. Also *Liked* and *Subbed* ☺️

[@dianeovercash6739]

Same here. As a novice writer, I need to start with something I can handle.

[@DefektiveEnvy]

Thank you thank you for doing a whole video on 3rd person, including Omniscient! This is the deepest dive I’ve seen on the subject. I’m always begging creators to go into the differences

[@SnoBlobber]

Me writing in first person: seems like the perfect video for me!

[@galaxylucia1898]

What sets this video apart from other videos on POV is your use of EXAMPLES!! Thank you!

[@adambeer238]

My favorite third person novel is “The Giver” by Lois Lowry, and it was actually a book we just finished reading in English class.

[@something6513]

So great, you get to read dystopian fiction in your English class we are still fed the old shit,

[@SnoBlobber]

why are you guys ending the sentence with a comma,

[@dragolia1603]

@@SnoBlobber cuz its a chain dont’t break it,

[@user-mp9fv5bf5d]

6:20 In the first book, a game of thrones, there's a stark difference in what Ned, an honorable lord and Sansa... Oh you! XD

[@swine13]

Amateurs. I write in 5th person: I write my characters and story from the perspective of someone else's book.

[@stonecat676]

i thought i could wrap my head around this, but alas, i've only mastered 4th person

[@EmptyKingdoms]

_Why on earth did Filch want a Kwikspell course?_ is such a great _free indirect speech/thought_ slipping through.

[@jmiogo]

Thank you for not being one of those cheap click-bait self promotional channels, where an unpublished “author” gives advice as a means to sell their self published book. Very happy I found you. Thank you!!! Sub

[@faiththatseeksunderstanding]

This is the type of video that makes me love writing and reading even more. It also articulates why I like 3rd-person omniscient. I've read so many of those books growing up. I know it has fallen out of favor, but I hope it makes a come-back soon.

[@hawkins413]

Thank you for this video. I was always confused why head hopping was bad, and I have now come to the realization that head hopping isn't bad. What is bad is confusing the reader. So if I can do head hopping without confusing the reader, then I see no good reason why it shouldn't be done. I think the aversion to head hopping is an exaggerated problem---writers have been so ingrained about avoiding head hoping, that they automatically have a negative reaction to it, even if the head hopping in question doesn't actually confuse the reader.

[@QuotidianWriter]

Yes, exactly. A lot of people mistake omniscient for head-hopping and automatically label it as "wrong." There can be a fine line between the two. The differentiating feature seems to be that head-hopping describes things through different characters' inner voices, whereas omniscient (like in "Dune") tells different characters' thoughts through the same broader narrative voice. This article explains it well: jamigold.com/2011/02/what-makes-omniscient-pov-different-from-head-hopping/. And this one from Ellen Brock: ellenbrockediting.com/2013/11/26/the-difference-between-omniscient-pov-and-head-hopping/.

[@aprilhelm518]

@@QuotidianWriter This is nitpicky. What you described as head-hopping is literally omniscient. I can see no reason, other than PERSONAL preference, why that would be confusing or bad.

[@RamssesPharaoh]

Excellent reply and link. Thank you for sharing your knowledge. Grateful. @@QuotidianWriter

[@retiefgregorovich810]

Dune was my inspiration for getting into writing. It was precisely the head hopping, knowing what all the characters motivations were, that made it my favorite book. It is also so depressing to always be cautioned not to head hop.

[@dianalewis3148]

Agreed

[@shumly]

Just finished Dune 6 and the headhopping is my absolute favorite part of Frank Herberts original saga

[@leanneabridged]

Your channel is a goldmine for writerly advice. Thank you so much

[@chaddelong998]

thank you for this insight. i find myself challenging all the rules though. i am writing 7 books, simultaneously. 3rd person, present tense, omniscient. 200+ characters over a spans of 4 months. i write with the idea that i have a camera on my shoulder and run from moment to moment building tension. the worlds will collide. the actions of one, will inevitably affect others. 800K words and building. absolute zero "he said/she said" ( i hate that form of dialog) i build mine more like reality. position character to speak, then release. it could be a slight gesture of ponder, or a intense reach for a holstered weapon. we naturally react before speaking. this is my form. In a charcoal grey pin striped suit and shiny loafers, Kevin walks toward Harry with a swagger of confidence and a brash attempt to establish his alpha position. “If you’re here to start trouble, you picked a bad day.” Harry tightens his fists as he looks Kevin dead in the eyes with contempt. “You’re not safe here. We need to leave. We need to get to the kids right now.” “What? Come on Harry. What are you up to?” “You need to leave with me. We need to get to the kids. No one is safe.” A relaxed smile creeps across Kevin’s face as he projects a calm demeanor to his fellow company staff. “Harry, Harry Harry…the kids are fine. I dropped them off this morning. I don’t know what you’re up to, but this needs to stop. Let’s give Rita a call and get to the bottom of this.”

[@adarshachatterjee493]

Well all the best... Just to ask isn't just way too tough?

[@chaddelong998]

@@adarshachatterjee493 writing this massive event is pretty tricky. like camera work, the more characters that enter the scene, the further back you pan the narration. less dialog, more descriptive. as the crowd gets smaller, i zoom in and describe nuances and small talk dialog.

[@EmptyKingdoms]

Virginia Woolf used head-hopping much better than most writers. And to greater effect.

[@DeckingBuilder]

The best and most interesting video on writing I have ever seen. I recommend it to both writers and readers, because the explantions of the craft of writing can help an avid reader understand and enjoy favourite novels even more ... and perhaps encourage them to write their own book. I look forward to Diane's next video.

[@MadeyeMoody492]

Ahh this is such a well put together video!!! You conveyed so much information but it never felt boring or dull!! Honestly, this is the kind of video I'd watch just for the heck of it, since it was such a pleasure to watch!

[@TheLightInTheShadows]

6:21 "a stark difference" - I see what you did there :)

[@MB.77]

This was super helpful. I also really appreciate the tone and speed of your videos . Thank you.

[@wesleythecowguy4280]

This video was so insightful and I loved all the examples and different page blurbs you used to explain the details of this POV. I've often found it frustrating when reading so many different opinions about the 3rd person narrative that I can never get a straight answer of it's facets, be they good or bad. This video shed some light on a couple things I will take into consideration for the novel idea I've had planned. I think I've always been drawn to the limited 3rd person, but the idea of panning the frame to another character's perspective is so intriguing. I like when authors shift to an important character and take us to a scene that is incredibly important but we would never have come across the interaction or event if the POV was in the 1st. Pertaining to your question of what my favorite 3rd person book is, I believe it would have to be "The Northern Lights" of the His Dark Materials trilogy by Phillip Pullman. Being in 3rd person POV, the book has a lot of depth with this little girl character we love, Lyra, but when a scene is called for a more intense conversation between adults, the author shifts the POV ever so slightly to give us the heavy information we need to know, which would have been unlikely for a little girl to receive.

[@QuotidianWriter]

Thank you for watching and for your kind words! Third-person POV is a bit difficult to capture because there's not always a defining line between omniscient and limited. Plus, even stories that fit into the same category can be completely different in narrative execution. There's just so much variety. I've also read books that mix first and third, with the protagonist narrating in first and then other chapters being in third-person limited for one-off characters (I'm thinking of "Tell No One" by Harlan Coben in particular). "The Northern Lights" is a fantastic example of third person, and I love how you convey the effectiveness of the perspective! Keep writing. :)

[@rustyalcorta3643]

I am writing my memoirs and this was very helpful since I knew much later what everybody was thinking....what was happening in their lives...bits and pieces of everyone THANK YOU....you've made my writing so much easier...

[@clintcarpentier2424]

Most of what I write is from 3rd person limited in multi-pov. Occasionally a character pops up and muscles in more page time. This happened again not long ago, and I had to make a choice; I chose to make her own book. The reality is, she is butterscotch drizzle on my parfait. Not essential to my story, but sorely missed if fully removed, so she gets a side story (just what does butterscotch dob when not drizzling my story?). It was an important choice, she fleshes out my main character, long before she meets him. Sadly, her story will be left open-ended, because her slice-o-life conflicts with his goals.

[@autumncosandaffect9735]

Thanks! I love your vids and play them on repeat a couple times a month. I'm new to this writing thing and I still need a refresher on all the buttons, dials, warning lights; as well as altimeter, airspeed, vertical speed, attitude, heading and turn indicators and gyroscope thingies. This is a less writing more thinking phase so I've been binge reading. I'm way faster at recognizing pov. Thanks again for all the time and effort you put into this work.. it works for me.

[@QuotidianWriter]

I'm so glad to hear that my videos have been helpful! That's a great analogy, too, haha. Keep writing. :)

[@tomgriffiths4916]

Finally another awesome video! I’m a huge admirer of your other videos. They’re always so professional, so well-made, so interesting, and are just awesome to listen to! I was so damn excited to click on this video when it showed up and I wasn’t disappointed at all. Keep it up you legend! 🙂

[@thunder5x]

I am still learning as I finish my first novel. I have no real training so POV and past and present tenses are something I still struggle with. Videos like this are more helpful then you can possibly imagine.

[@reggielovato9525]

Harry Potter would be interesting to read in first person

[@sunshineyrainbows13]

@@CameronCCox mhuhmuu

[@lovetolovefairytales]

In my opinion, it would have been cool if Harry Potter had been omniscient third person, because then it would have been less focused on just him and we'd have gotten more of the other characters.

[@GalaxiaTokyo]

Fantastic video with very helpful advice! Can't way to see next week's video ;) The way I think about it is that you use third person when you want to put the characters into context and comment on the things they aren't aware of. For instance, although modernist works like Ulysses or To the Lighthouse use stream of consciousness to give a very detailed account of their character's subjectivity, the fact that they do so in third person distances the reader from the character. If Leopold Bloom were given the chance to tell his story, he probably wouldn't give any significance to the trivial moments of his life. The obsession with trivial thoughts and feelings of third-person modernist novels doesn't come from the characters themselves, but is an artificial constraint imposed by the narrator in order to make a point that no character understands. In a similar way, the narrator of Harry Potter wants to portray the world as a complex and interconected network of fun details, so the reader can immerse him/herself in the world. However, the characters don't experience the world in such a way; each of them is focused in his own little problems and lives and really do not care much for understanding the omnipresent cultural complexity of the world. So, the narrator's vision and the character's vision don't ever coincide in third person, usually because the narrator is trying to say something about the world at large that the characters do not entirely grasp. (sorry for my english)

[@QuotidianWriter]

Yes, that's an excellent analysis! You expressed it wonderfully. The objectivity of third person definitely lets the narrator add layers of characterization, world-building, and atmosphere. The stream-of-consciousness examples are very illustrative. Thank you for watching and for your thoughtful comment! :)

[@MicahBlackLight]

First off, THANK YOU SO MUCH for these videos! I find your approach incredibly thorough, super accessible and easy to understand, and seriously educational AND thought-provoking. I LOVE that you provide so many examples of what you mean, they add so much. As for books, one of my favorite ever written in third person is a book by Guy Gavriel Kay entitled ‘Tigana’... ohhhhhh what a masterwork of fantasy that one is..

[@mr.crinkles9943]

Currently writing the first draft. Switching from multiple firstPOVs to thirdlimited to figure out which would be better. Binge watching your videos! Love all of em!

[@mobius9588]

Thank you for all your videos! I'm just starting to experiment with writing, and your videos have given so much good advice. And this video was great because im trying to write in third person right now, and this had given me a lot to think about.

[@Aolsucs]

This was hella helpful. I've always loved writing in first person, and had really difficult time with third person.

[@abdelkarimdebbah9512]

This channel deserves a noble prize, I wish I could do more than subscribing.

[@hldo00]

This channel has become my go-to-hyperfocus safe place for all matters writing. Thank you so much ❤

[@joeldrummond6058]

Well worth the wait, Diane! This is the best explanation I've found on the 3rd person perspective. So glad you found some more arms and a way to create more hours, to be able to make this. We appreciate you so much! 😊

[@QuotidianWriter]

Thank you, Joel! I always appreciate your kind comments. I hope you've been writing more!

[@m-hellothere4167]

Thanks for taking the time and effort to make this video. May God bless you all

[@jannette4314]

Lord of the Flies by William Golding is my favourite third person novel

[@maynemen8062]

Still fumbling if i want to write in first person or third person. Planning to write a romantic tragedy, then again, i still have YEARS before writing the actual book, so, more research! Thanks for these video’s, they help a bunch.

[@Jasonronsteinberger]

This made me think over a lot of a story im on and just some of these suggestions of yours expands a lot, thank you, definitely watching this a second time, thanks!

[@TheSalMaris]

I love the use of both first and third person narratives throughout the four books of Lawrence Durrell's Alexandria Quartet.

[@kristoffer2250]

Do excuse my language, but YES FUCKKINNGGGG YESSSSS!!! Why are you so good at this kind of analysis. It's like you're born to do this or something. If that is the case then do continue what you're doing. We absolutely appreciate it!

[@Jennifer-wr9si]

Great video but even hacking away through my second draft I still can't decide on POV or tense! It's not clear to me if present tense is just a trend or an actual shift but it does give me a "hurried" feel to write in present.

[@plus100system2]

WOW, YOU HAVE LITERALLY SAVED MY LIFE NOW I UNDERSTAND HOW TO WRITE MY ENGLISH NARRATIVE THANK YOU SO MUCH!

[@RzKisDios]

Thank you so much for these videos, I have recently started to write, and all these videos have been extremely helpful and valuable.

[@BlightBreedOfficial]

Still confuses me. Is it bad to mix first person limited and omniscient? I’ve always been told, that mixing these two is bad. Yet, it seems most 3rd person books are mixed with these two? Is third person past tense/semi omniscient a common writing style? For example: “Derek grabbed the locket, and scrunched it into his fist. He walked towards the front porch of his apartment, which was nestled away in a small neighborhood, tightly squished between two other apartments.”

[@QuotidianWriter]

What bothers readers most is inconsistency. If you're in one character's head for most of the book and then you randomly switch to another's, it can feel jarring. You need to set the readers' expectations from the first chapter. If you want to use an omniscient narrator, you can start off by revealing things about the characters that only you, the author, would know, or you can give the omniscient narrator a distinct voice. It might help to think of POV as more of a spectrum than a black and white categorization. The key is that third-person omniscient can provide *information the main character wouldn't know or can't see* or else the information is worded in a different voice than that of the main character. The latter reason is why Harry Potter feels slightly omniscient at times to me, but it's more the degree of emotional distance that creates that effect. Sometimes we're super close to Harry's thoughts and feelings, while other times we're further away. I do think that this type of "semi-omniscient" style, as you put it, is quite common. K.M. Weiland uses the distinction of "distant third-person limited" and "deep third-person limited" to distinguish these: www.helpingwritersbecomeauthors.com/third-person-pov/ Hope that helps! :)

[@gsmiley2707]

Ooohh... I am definitely going to break that head-hopping one... I think it gives great opportunities to play with tension. The example you gave of Dune showed the page setup of the novel, and I am glad to see that I can use paragraphing to signal those changes of POVs. I remember reading (well, trying to read) Dune as a teenager. The tension was just too much for me. Even distilled as a movie script, you can feel it.

[@tropichawk850]

One of the characters in my series, one who has his own book, has just been through something taxing and is lying in his room to recuperate for a few days to a week when we start reading. As the story goes on the book constantly shifts from the present day into several, out of order flashbacks from this characters' life, with the title of each chapter being the date in which each flashback takes place. As you read you realize that our main character has a pendant once belonging to his now deceased brother. This pendant means the world to MC as it represents his promise to live for both his brother and himself. It represents who he is. However, as the story goes on, certain things happen, and the MC's memory begins to fade and he slowly loses emotional control. He can no longer remember what his brother was like and as the MC feels like he keeps letting everyone down, he slowly grows to resent the brother that meant so much to him. At the same time he started writing in a journal in order to be able to reread any moment of his past in case he forgets about it. That journal contains the flashbacks we're reading. As such, when we read the flashbacks, they're in 3rd Person Limited (Past Tense), yet when we read through the here and now, the events are explained in 1st Person (Present Tense). In the end, our MC ends up discarding the pendant and clinging to his journal. A way to symbolize that the man he once was is now gone, discarded, as he clings to the new him. This is also almost when we read the last of the flashbacks. So, yeah, probably a bit more out there in terms of tense, but I'm going for it. It jumps around in the timeline and shifts between 1st and 3rd person, but I doubt it'll be too confusing if I present it correctly.

[@QuotidianWriter]

That's a cool use of different narrative POVs! In the future, I'm going to make a video about unconventional POVs (second person, collective, and mixed), which will hopefully include books that use a combination of first and third, as in your story. "The Fifth Season" by N.K. Jemisin mixes third person and *second* person, I think, which is extra weird but creates an interesting effect. I'm drawn to books that use mixed perspectives like that. Thank you for watching! :)

[@tropichawk850]

@@QuotidianWriter That sounds like my bread and butter! I can't wait to see that video. Well, I mean, clearly I have to, but I'm still really excited for it. The use of second person in a narrative outside of choose your own adventures already intrigues me, but meshing it with third person only makes me more interested. I appreciate your response by the way. Ever since I found your channel I've considered it the penultimate KZbin channel for writing advice, and have recommended it to my friends. I don't believe this is the first time you've responded to me, (albeit my memory is almost as bad as MC's, so who knows,) but it's still nice to be granted your time, so I thank you. (The compliment felt pretty nice for my ego too. Haha.)

[@sanaamin5651]

I needed some direct advice and examples. fortunetly found your video. it was a masterclass in third person pov and im so glad you covered tenses as well. All this had been immmensely confusing for me as a beginner 2 years ago when I started working on my novel. Wish I watched this sooner. Either way, Thank you a great deal in helping me figure this out!

[@QuotidianWriter]

I'm so glad to hear it was helpful! Thank you for watching. Keep writing! :)

[@merenwen4495]

All the light we cannot see is one of the best books I have ever read. The moment I finished it, I wanted to start reading it again.

[@billypearce4063]

Re head-hopping: I'm relieved to know that it's not totally taboo. I think switching POV can add depth to your characters, as long as it's not treated like dialogue. A clear paragraph break and limiting the switch to, say, two characters in a scene should be fine. Readers aren't stupid and picking up the switch is intuitive.

[@k.williams9256]

Thank you for this video...it helped me understand 3rd person in detail. Its clear you done your research on these literary devices. Thanks for teaching in such away were one understands. I loved all the examples you gave. This is my go to video meaning, I will be playing it over and over again as a study guide. I appreciate all the work you put into this video. 👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽

[@edenmckinley3472]

Thank you, thank you, thank you! My novel used to be third person limited, but I had trouble making the different storylines feel connected. So I changed it slightly to omniscient, but I still delve deep into the character's thoughts at times. I have honestly never thought about putting a third-person POV novel in present tense. I really liked the excerpt you read, and I wonder if my novel would be easier to read in present tense. It has many sections where a character will remember something, but it gets annoying to write the word "had" over and over again when you're trying to convey that something happened in the distant past. I'll give it a go and see how I like present tense.

[@SuperSanjuro]

For whatever reason, I don't find head-hopping jarring at all, so long as it's constrained to a reasonable number of perspectives.

[@learnwriting560]

Love you for all the content you put out.

[@sthiel126]

Wow, I am so glad I found these videos. Perfectly (more then perectly) expressed my thoughts on the subject. Personally, I love omniscient writing. Like Victor Hugo or The Narnian Chronicles, because (like your example from Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy) the author can add little opinionated quips about society or start a moral dialog in the readers head. Making the purpose of the story more direct.

[@jacintalobo1977]

Well researched tools of writing, persuasive with an encouraging tone your videos are interesting. The last line is the best!! "Whatever you do, Keep writing"

[@thanjariuslives8368]

This video was incredibly helpful. Thank you.

[@gregdunn6415]

wonderful summary and presentation. Big help. Especially as I vacillate between 3rd person (limited and omniscient). Thanks!

[@quillink3817]

Hello, may please ask if you vacillate between 3rd person limited and omniscient within the same story? I'm asking for a few reasons, I didn't know you could do that I would like to write a story that has one main character who I follow closely like in third person limited, but want the freedom to describe things such as weather, appearances, landscapes, etc, that the main character might not be present for, such as them being asleep, or, I would just like the reader to know about them. I would like to sometimes have the narrator chime in with his own commentary and occasionally speak directly to the reader In this video, it's said that while Harry Potter is written mostly in third person limited, there are occasional scenes, descriptions and during some of the narration that breaks from limited or sounds broader than just from Harry's view, for instance, there is narration that describes the seasonal weather outside of the castle, but harry may or may not be present for this bit of narration, he may not be the one experiencing it directly, and the description isn't really in his voice. The video goes to describe that kids in school were getting colds and the nurse Pomfry was administering medicine, and described the appearance of the students who were affected by the magical medicine, but it never said Harry was observing these events. Yet the narrator still described them. I am curious if a third person limited narrator is allowed to describe such things such as other students, the appearance of the castle, the cold weather, etc, if the main character isn't the one experiencing them? Isn't' that just narration in general - describing such things in order to set the scene and mood and help with the passage of time? Or by describing such things, does that make the narration omniscient? Pleases help and let me know what you think. I have been researching this for a long time now, it's hard to find a good answer. I'd love to write story and am trying to figure out if I should use third person limited or omniscient and not sure where the line is. Thanks!

[@h4xo7]

​@@quillink3817hey, just read your comment and wanted to reply as I am in the same situation. I am writing in 3rd person limited but wish to give broader descriptions also. I was wondering if you had discovered any more information? Or if you are still even on here, as I see the comment is from a while ago. I am going to actually go into Harry Potter 1 and see how Rowling does it, that should give me my answers. Also, I read a comment saying that the more characters that are in a scene, the further the camera pans out. So it goes from limited to panning out to include more characters, like a camera in a movie. Perhaps then it can begin broad, describing the setting or time of year and current events as 'omniscient' and then focus in on the MC and become limited, following only what they see. Maybe broadening back out at the end to become omniscient, or wherever necessary. It's difficult to know how much swapping is 'allowed' or 'good' before it damages the flow/rhythm/ spell of the narrative though, and I'd like to find answers regarding this.

[@princessamethyst9312]

i'm thankful for this explanation, because i found harry potter interesting in narrative tone and it helps me be able to write mine too! thank you:)

[@achilles704]

this was a fantastic listen! thank you very much.

[@V.G.Toledo]

Teacher, I've got another question that I couldn't find anywhere. I hope you will be able to help me. For exemple... If the readers already know a character called ADAM. Because ADAM appeared in the first chapter. But in the fourth chapter, we anchor the chapter in a character called LILY. In the middle of the fourth chapter, ADAM appears. But LILY doesn't know him. Only the readers. Is it ok to specify the name ADAM in a paragraph or in a dialogue before LILY learns his name? Adam had a smile on his face. or "Hi", said Adam. Or LILY must first learn the name and then we can use it? I hope it wasn't too confusing. 😅 Thanks again.

[@QuotidianWriter]

That's a great question! I would say that since Lily doesn't know Adam's name yet, you shouldn't call him by name in Lily's chapter until she knows that information. When you're writing in third-person limited like that, it will seem unnatural if Lily randomly knows Adam's name. However, if you were writing the whole book in third-person omniscient where you have this all-knowing narrator, then that approach might work and feel less jarring. One method I've seen a lot of published authors use is referring to a known character by their most obvious identifying traits. For example, if Adam is exceedingly tall and has long black hair, that might be the first thing Lily notices about him, and his dialogue tags might use that shorthand descriptor: "the tall man said." That way, the reader will instantly recognize that this character Lily is interacting with is Adam, although there's a bit of dramatic irony in that the reader knows who he is, but Lily doesn't. The novel "Vicious" by V.E. Schwab uses this type of approach, if you need a role model for the technique. Keep writing! :)

[@V.G.Toledo]

@@QuotidianWriter Once again you are a lifesaver! Thank you very much! Hope you have a wonderful 2023!!!!

[@MichaelCantrall]

Thank you for this one. Really well done.

[@sebastianfranciscoponcevid5629]

Hi there, I'm amateur writer and musician and I find your tips really useful and interesting, Actually I've been writing a few short stories and the idea is be able to write a novel which it's a challenge. Regarding 3rd person works I'd mention the works of H.G. Wells, Ernest Hemingway, Verne and Flaubert, authors that I read recently. Greetings from Colombia (land of great wiriters and poets like Gabriel García Márquez, José Eustasio Rivera, Alvaro Mutis, Porfirio Barba Jacob and José Asunción Silva)

[@johnobrien5802]

Wonderful description !

[@miwami.]

I am a very amateur writer, and I always write in 3rd person limited. I don't switch P.O.Vs very often but I do use headhopping a lot in dialogues or just in general, anyways, this video was super informative!

[@PELEGON1]

I first read Mary Renault at fourteen who wrote in the first person. Yet she managed managed to convey as much as if she wrote in third person, she remains my favourite author.

[@sunderchauhan1211]

You're a saviour Diane... such amazing videos discussing complex concepts. Thanks a ton for sharing...you've resolved many of my doubts about POVs, and I'm sure to come back for the other videos.

[@pjfurlong1]

My favorite YA book written in the third person is CINDER by Marissa Meyer. Thanks again!

[@chocolatethunder3514]

Right now I think my favorite book written in third person is Dune, It's not used so much to convey the story, but the themes. Which is a very smart decision on Herbert's part, it'd be much more difficult to do so through a 1st person POV.

[@shumly]

completely agree, just finished the final dune and the way perspective hops is the most fun and fascinating part. the series would genuinely not work at all without it

[@elizabethmcglothlin5406]

When I started I used first person because I thought I understood the rules better. That made a fairly easy transition to third person limited.

[@royrieder2113]

Love it. Great resource for writing a third person story!

[@timflatus]

I love the fact that you use books I've actually read as examples. Easy answer for me, H2G2, as I know the dolphins quote off by heart. Far too many YT channels only focus on American literature.

[@creativityrevealed3659]

When talking about head hopping then mentioned sci fi novel, I knew it was going to be about Dune. Late to the party but am enjoying these.

[@justinesalter9777]

Amazing channel and amazing content. Please keep creating! I'd love to see a video on plot issues and how to fix them.

[@jeywithane130]

lovely video

[@robluciani2374]

Wow! Great presentation. Incredibly interesting and moving. I prefer to write and read stories in third person, but that has nothing to do with my opinion on the quality of your video. Thank you

[@GRAY-vg8fl]

Thanks, I will try the exercise, sounds very fun.

[@k_alex]

I enjoy these videos more than I thought I would. Very pleasant voice and great presentation.

[@jorgegarciapascual5709]

I wrote my first novel in 3rd person limited with a floating narrator, if you will, that jumps from one pov to another and stays a while with them, usually at the end of a chapter but not necessarily, so sort of a controlled and very aware head hoping. From A to B, briefly C, back to A, to D, to E, back to A, and that's the first five chapters for you, linking the narration without abrupt cuts, because a theme of the story is that sequentiality of life. Wow, sounds great. Thanks, it is.

[@ashleyfleckenstein346]

Your videos are SO helpful. Thank you so much for all your hard work!!!

[@dion789]

8:02 One of the reasons I'm not a fan of Game of Thrones is that I don't root for any of the characters. But this video is great. All of your videos have great writing advice.

[@johnelmartagbago3764]

Have you watch/read just a single episode/chapter of Game of Thrones?

[@Serryy]

did you read any of the books? i think its almost impossible to end up not rooting for any character with this diverse cast

[@whifling]

I really like the background music.

[@adavis5926]

Thanks for the video. I'm working on a historical fiction with a dark comedic element that uses third person objective. I know it's not common, but I've read some crime novels that have such a light touch when it comes to entering any character's heads, they might as well be 3 POV objective.

[@QuotidianWriter]

_The Maltese Falcon_ by Dashiell Hammett is always the first book to come to my mind when it comes to third-person objective, so I can definitely see what you mean! Personally, I find omniscient and objective POV to be fairly similar, which is why I didn't bother to distinguish them in the video. Keep writing! :)

[@gike2755]

Only recently switched to first person and holy hell...the feels!

[@jessinna]

Your videos are always so helpful and they're just nice to listen to as well, love this 😍

[@jftierdor4605]

thank you for this high quality and inspirational work.

[@RyanJohnson1374]

Excellent video. I hope you keep going with these.

[@TheDoomKnight]

Late the the party, of course, but this was a great video, highly informative. My favorite book that uses third-person, past tense limited is called StarCraft: Speed of Darkness by Tracy Hickman. It's told from the perspective of Ardo Melnikov, a young man on a backwater planet, living a life of peace when his entire world is turned upside down by an alien species called the Zerg. He's conscripted into the Confederacy and sent to fight, but as he does, he discovers that his conscription, and everything he was led to believe, may not be what it seems. The author uses Ardo's faith to guide his morality, and the thoughts running through his head as his morality and mission conflict. Flashes of memories cling to him, a constant reminder of what was stolen from him, and what the Confederacy did to him. It's all so close knit and emotional, and beautifully written. I only hope one day, I can write something that has the impact on readers as this did for me.

[@meganrobinson6858]

Wow. I just found your videos and I really like them! It’s hard to find writing videos that I personally like. You’re voice is calming but not boring and they’re so educational and not just your personal opinion on things. I also want to write better in 3rd person for the book I want to publish and knowing the difference between each one of them is really helpful. I’m still a little unsure which one I think I write in personally. I mean I think I write in an omniscient style of the “all knowing” but still follow one character in a chapter like Limited does I’m still a little confused when it comes to my writing but that is something I need to work out for myself but I also head hop… a lot. I need to fix that now that it is pointed out to me >.

[@QuotidianWriter]

Thank you so much for your kind and thoughtful comment, Megan! Keep writing! :)

[@jorje0068]

My focus is usually very psychological. Head hopping has become essential for my writing style.