How to Choose a Point of View (feat.

[@JB_Emerson]

One of the most famous examples of effective 2nd person is the "Choose Your Own Adventure" books. And they work because of the reasons you laid out--they give the reader choices that affect the outcome of the story.

[@AroundTheCampfire]

I thought about mentioning "Choose your own adventure," but I was worried people wouldn't know what I was talking about 😂 That's why I said it's not used in "Modern Fiction" since choose your own adventure has fallen out of fashion which is a shame. I'd love to see it come back!

[@JB_Emerson]

@@AroundTheCampfire Soooooooo, you're calling me old? Not cool guys. Not. COOL. (I'm pushing 40. It's fine.)

[@AroundTheCampfire]

​@@JB_Emerson I should clarify. By "modern" I mean "what I saw at Barnes & Noble last week that was near the same three selves I always look at" so my time estimates might be a *little* skewed

[@natmj7851]

@@AroundTheCampfire actually this format/genre has been revitalised with computer games. I guess game developers thought this was a great way of introducing younger audiences to this genre and it works really well. I really loved “choose your own adventure” books growing up so I was so thrilled when computer games picked it up. 😁

[@AroundTheCampfire]

@@natmj7851 Ooo, any examples? Those might be nice to look into for a deep dive!

[@Atypical_Typo]

I naturally tend towards a more omnicient pov when describing settings and actions, being more detached but like to randomly dip into the MC's thoughts mid descriptions. I guess I'm weird😅

[@prakharmishra5187]

So glad Man Carrying Thing joined this, thanks for the video!

[@AroundTheCampfire]

Me too! Editing the skits was so much fun!

[@teddyberserker]

Definitely wrestling with this question myself at the moment. Very timely!

[@Avionne_Parris]

Great timing with this video, Levi! Was literally debating my POV choice for my Nano WIP :-) Also, Jake playing the omniscient narrator could be considered typecasting, wouldnt you say? Also, also, ding!

[@AroundTheCampfire]

There was an incredibly rigourous casting process for the video, and Jake was just the best fit for Narrator/God!

[@j.n.h4977]

I find it easiest to write in first person, because you can show what's going on in their head

[@halli4310]

Thank you for not crapping on 1st person, Levi😂 I almost only write in 1st person present perfect and I always hear other writers saying 1st person is lazy🙃

[@AroundTheCampfire]

People's view of 1st person as "lazy" or "amateurish" is silly to me. I've only ever heard it espoused by older dudes, and there's no way that's born from 1st person's association with YA that's popular with women! /s

[@NiteOwl2000]

This video is criminally underrated, really great work!!!

[@jchinckley]

l don't have a favorite tree, but if I did it might be eucalyptus, or maybe ash, no no no, it's the banyan tree. Only so many trees can look like a grove all by themselves.

[@AroundTheCampfire]

This comment got buried originally, but I am so glad I found it. You win the close watcher award. My favorite tree is one specific tree: Pando, the grove of Aspens that are all actually one tree.

[@OfficialParadaG]

I think for my particular story I should write in limited 3rd, even though it's going to be reliant on character development I also need to show perspectives of other characters from time to time to convey the overarching plot to the series. Plus I want relatable antagonists as well as protagonists to develop this sense of conflicted interests for the reader. Obviously this one is the hero of the story, but the 'bad guys' have noble or understandable reasoning for their actions, even though they're, well.... evil.

[@AroundTheCampfire]

Yeah, 3rd limited sounds like the right choice, and it's by no means bad for character development. It's just easier to portray in 1st person 🤷‍♀️

[@andrewdaniel9337]

Yes! Love this collab with the Man who carries things!! In this case, he's carrying stories and point of views!

[@DavidDecero]

Love this! By acting out the advice you're giving here, I feel like it's going to really resonate with more people and be even easier to understand. Great work guys! I hope you make more like this (with sketches added in.) and if you ever need extras let me know. lol

[@AroundTheCampfire]

I really enjoyed making the sketches, so I'll definitely let you know!

[@BazColne]

Very well presented. Thanks.

[@frozenzenberry4101]

I've always written in first person because that's always seemed the most natural. I can see now why that's not really my best choice.

[@gamewriteeye769]

Welp, I've been working extensively on a multi-pov first person sci-fi/fantasy, and all I can say is, after 6 drafts of getting the worldbuilding right, you might be surprised if I can daresay, pull it off. There's obviously sections of past tense to establish important flashback sections, but generally it's a lot of fun, and I feel like I'm the only one that genuinely doesn't like writing third for the actual novel. I write third in my outline as a guide to structuring the scenes, but in first-person it translates to actually being close to a “story”. Being right there with the characters and what it means to them. Whereas third just feels like the writer/author didn't take the time to establish a deeper connection and meaning to the characters/story with them, and left the interpretation to as far as they're willing to go. What do the eyes behind that I mean to you; who's willing to push the boundary of what first-person present tense (hardest but most natural tense to me) is capable of doing?

[@sentient_dinosaurplush]

Oh I’m literally writing like my different 3rd person POV character’s voices by the way they talk. My warrior/protagonist character has short sentence, where multiple sentences form one thought in most high-tension scenes or scenes where he feels uncomfortable. Longer sentences but not a bunch of complexity for the rest cause my man is ✨direct✨. My noble/fancy/poet character uses big words and lots of metaphor and figures of speech for his voice and the witchy witch gets a mix of fancy and barnyard talk cause of her ✨upbringing✨. IDK if you’re supposed to do that but it sure is fun.

[@quirkyauthor5378]

A technique that can help with the lack of voice in Third Limited is free indirect style/discourse, which utilizes character voice with the narrator while still being in third person.

[@SaraLea]

Self help uses second person often. And “You” (the book that became a show) successfully used second person.

[@floramew]

The pros of first person... I use all these while writing in 3rd person? I guess I just like my unreliable narrators, but none of these things seem exclusive to first person imo. And I've read too many things with confusing tenses to really enjoy much first person fiction at this point. Then again, I'm autistic, and I'm sure that pov (lol) is affected by my different social tendencies & very literal type of thinking, which leaves me confused when grammar/ spelling are too far from either technically or conversationally correct. I also grew up reading classic mid century scifi along with the more normal middle grade books, so that's likely part of it, too. Even today I tend to associate first person with (often "bad") ya books, even though I've now read Lovecraft and several of the the Sherlock Holmes books, both of which feature first person pov, the former to great effect.

[@AroundTheCampfire]

Yeah, choosing POV is also a lot about taste (can't beleive I forgot to say that in this video lol). Even if on paper a POV might theoretically be a better choice, if you don't like that POV, then it's not going to go well. And in response to what you said about 1st and third limited's pros being similar, I'm not saying that one POV can accomplish things that others can't. You can make just as close a bond with a character in 3rd omni as in 1st person, it's just a little harder by default, and there are also tons of excpetions to everything I said in this video (and all my videos, that's how all advice about art is by nature). I can't hit all those exceptions, but I plan to talk about some in the deep dives!

[@floramew]

@@AroundTheCampfire aye, that all tracks! I'm sorry if my comment sounded rude, dismissive, or confrontational; I didn't intend it that way, though I'm sorry for my lack of tonal finesse. Just thought it was kinda interesting, esp since I hear the "connection" argument a lot and it mostly leaves me confused-- most especially when a book changes character pov, but keeps using first person language. ...I feel like I haven't added anything meaningful with this comment but idk I'm having trouble words. I'm saving up all my braining for what's now next month, ie nano.

[@AroundTheCampfire]

@@floramew I didn't take it that way at all! Like I said, there's exceptions to all writing advice, and it's important to point those out. If I thought your comment was rude, I would've just deleted it instead of responding 😂 Good luck with NaNo!

[@AroundTheCampfire]

Also, you mentioned books written in first person but switch perspectives. I've actually never read a book like that (though plenty exist). It's not a super common use of the POV, and my theory (based on very little evidence save my own feelings) is because it's a little akward for suspension of disbelief. It begs the question: "How am I getting both sides of the story?" With one 1st person narrative, it makes sense that someone is telling you the story, but when you add more, it's odd because, are both the character with you and taking turns? That's not a huge hurdle to overcome, but I reckon it's big enough to prevent people from doing it a lot.

[@Catherine-km2kf]

I go with the voice I hear in my head. My stories vary in voice depending on my inner personality.

[@rhuntern]

I'm not a fan for first person or second person as a reader. I find it very difficult to enjoy the book without being pulled out of the experience due to an action, or thought, I wouldn't have. I know first person isn't exactly like that, but that's how I view anyway. As a writer, the only time I'd use second person is if it's a sort of detached perspective. Like a choose-your-own adventure, or The Revel by John Langan, a short story that describes a movie and the "You" is the audience watching it. So, the perspective is used to show what you're SEEING, not DOING, making the perspective not only work, but come across stylistically in a great way.

[@AroundTheCampfire]

Yeah, I've seen quite a few good uses of 2nd person in shorter pieces. There's a chapter of In the Dream House by Carmen Maria Machado that's set up as a recursive choose your own adventure story, and it's amazing. It pulls off something you could never do with another perspective. I'm definitely going to use it as an example in my 2nd person deep dive, and I'll also check out The Revel!

[@danielloosjr396]

My current story is actually switching between first and third at times. However, it is actually only going into first person with the protagonist. I'm not sure how else to do some of the scenes, but the narrative requires the scenes, or an important part will lack the planned foreshadowing.

[@ruriva4931]

Second person is a staple in self insert fan fiction! My middle school days were full of it, you more or less adapt to it after a while. But those fan fictions were generally a predictable plot line or low stakes. Second person in prose doesn’t do a great job in making you feel invested in the books world because suspension of disbelief is made difficult everytime “you” are doing something you wouldn’t do. But it works more or less for fanfic because the readers go in already invested in the world because they are fans of the original and are actively seeking to self insert. However second person doesn’t always need to just be a reader insert. It’s use can be quite varied. The easiest and most comfortable use of second person would be to have a first person narrator talking about a protagonist that the narrator refers to as you. Or you could lean heavily in imperative voice. Even without having an narrator of a different POV a second person narrator/protagonist doesn’t have to be just a readers insert. For a variety of reasons. However the more you lean into second person the more tiring it can be to write and read. Think about the themes of your story and only choose second person if the use of second person enhances your story much more than it’s disadvantages.

[@GreenBlueWalkthrough]

So um nmy first book that everyone who read it likes was in 3rd omni but with 2nd added in by giving the feeling that the reader was with characters watching them like they were there with them... Exemple: You watch a man walk down the street in his home town of someplace hill... After a few moments he stops by a cafe and meets his life long friend. (A man) "Hi Sam! Did you see the game last night I can't bellive our team won for once!" (Sam) " I know Timmy that last secound dicstion won us the game alright!" (Timmy) "Yeah I think the other teams mistake ealrier is what really cost them..." They are now walking in to the cafe graddy best to get in line. Which it's flaw is what if I have just one character to work with? So for those times I'll just add 1st person win I need it.

[@AroundTheCampfire]

By all means, I'm not trying to say that there's no place for 2nd person. Like I said at the top, these are just baselines. If you find dipping into 2nd person works for your story and you like it, more power to you! Plus, since you're not doing the entire story in 2nd person, I think that works a bit better in my opinion. It tends to work better in smaller doses, so I could see working the way you're doing it!

[@lilam7851]

Im currently writing a story about trauma and recovery in a fa tasy setting. Its heavily based on charavter development. Ive written Before, but ive only used 3rd L and 3rd O. While i feel that 1st is the best option, i have no clue what im doing.

[@AroundTheCampfire]

Keep at it! Practicing writing 1st person and reading stories written in 1st person will help you feel more comfortable with it. :)

[@lilam7851]

@@AroundTheCampfire thank you! This is the first video of yours I've seen. Just subbed! Love your content.

[@brophwyd]

Spill Simmer Falter Wither is a great example of 2nd Person. But it's also a very depressing novel.

[@quagsiremcgee1647]

what would the POV be called for Tress and the emerald sea. it's narrated in 3rd person limited most of the time, but the narrator is a different character who's kicking around as a side character. it's portrayed as if the narrator had an ailment at the time, and is relaying someone else's story after hearing it and playing a role in it themselves.

[@AlexanderBennett00]

I would point out that with 3rd Omni, you don't just have the ability to tell everything, but you might spoil too much. The narrator has to hide information for dramatic tension even though they "know" what's going to happen. This can be good if you want to show that the villain already knows of the hero's plan, but we also miss out on the tension of thinking the plan is great only for it to not work at all because the villain was prepared. When the question is raised to why the plan failed, with a limited perspective we only know what our POVs know, but with omni we likely know exactly how the villain found out, which can be mundane - but there's a different tension between "who was the traitor" and "Bill keeps saying Bob is the traitor, but really they found out because the villain's cousin saw them preparing"

[@AroundTheCampfire]

Going to discuss this in my video on 3rd omni!

[@KineticManiac]

As an aspiring game designer, I kinda wish you talked a bit more about 2nd-person.

[@AroundTheCampfire]

I will do a video on 2nd person as part of the series! This video was mainly for how to choose for a book, so 2nd person isn't the best there, but I want to give it the respect it deserves

[@zenithial3757]

Is it forbidden to mix Omnicient and limited if it flows well?

[@AroundTheCampfire]

Nothing is really *forbidden* when it comes to this stuff. I'd suggest just running it by some beta readers and listening to their feedback. :)

[@dusk5984]

Can i Write a fantasy story with multiple characters in limited or is bad move? I'm new writer and I Don't have a lot of experience with OMNI povs.

[@AroundTheCampfire]

You can for sure! A lot of huge fantasy series are written in 3rd limited like A Song of Ice and Fire or The Stormlight Archive, and they usually switch perspectives from chapter to chapter.

[@dusk5984]

@@AroundTheCampfire oh cool!! Ty for answering, this helps a lot! And ty for the tip!

[@AroundTheCampfire]

@@dusk5984 No problem!

[@billyalarie929]

Man really carried the story here

[@alexanderdietrich9943]

Hello there! I have rather silly questions about character’s thoughts in omniscient: why can’t you show them? Is it slipping into a different POV? Is it partly because of tradition as well as keeping things clearer by keeping them simpler? Thank you for the video. I hope things are going well!

[@AroundTheCampfire]

I don't think you *can't* show character thoughts in 3rd person omniscient. That said, it's harder to do so naturally. The reason sharing character thoughts works so well in 1st person is because you're already very close to that character to begin with. Everything is "I did this" and so it's not a leap to see their thoughts too. 3rd limited is still close, just not quite as close. It's "they did this" but you still stick pretty close to that character. 3rd omniscient is the furthest away you can really get from a character, since you're playing with an outside narrator. So it is just less natural-feeling. I'm sure it can be done, it's just harder to do well. There's a bigger leap from the way 3rd omniscient is told to telling you the individual character's thoughts, if that makes sense. -Adam

[@alexanderdietrich9943]

@@AroundTheCampfire It absolutely makes sense. Thank you for the reply! If I may offer a thought. It seems that if you're going to do it, either start with the thought and work your way out, or from outside and zoom in to a point where the leap is less jarring. Thanks again, and the best of luck!

[@christopheradams2405]

I was fascinated with Omniscient writing, and I enjoyed it a lot, dipping into the heads of the characters and making these grand settings that characters just walked through? haha. I started writing in third-person limited lately, and now the story flows so easily. Now, my outlines tend to me omniscient and short, and to the point tellings of the story. By then i know who should be the POV character in 3rd person limited, and i essentially rewrite the scenes from that perspective in a fairly straightforward way. I am a 3D artist, and I've written over the years, but thought i had little talent for it. Now, i wonder how far i can take this.

[@deadSalesman_GD]

So I have a big question. Wouldn’t 3rd omniscient be the POV where the narrator jumps into characters head? Considering omniscient means all knowing then the omniscient POV would know the thoughts and feelings of all the characters. By definition if the narrator doesn’t know even a single detail they aren’t omniscient. Edit: nevermind. I just watched the deep dive videos on 3rd person and I get it now.

[@ogelsmogel]

What about 4th person?!!

[@anthonyledford5845]

You forgot about the old goosebumps books that let you pick the actions

[@neasahayes6044]

Only second person POV I have ever come across is Oriana Fallacis A Man. It was too off putting so didn't finish the book.

[@BShamow]

Favorite tree: broccoli.

[@renab.7390]

Ever heard of 3rd person deep? ...yeah, didn't think so.

[@rorangarrowson5]

Why is everyone so hard on second? The story I writing currently is 1st but sorta of 2nd. It use You all the time. But the reader is not the MC. The MC is telling the story he just refer to himself as you because he is odd.

[@AroundTheCampfire]

That definitely gets around my apprehensions for the POV! The reader being the main character is the biggest downside for the reasons I stated in the video. What inspired you to take that route? I've never heard of someone using the POV that way, and I'd be interested to read it!

[@rorangarrowson5]

@@AroundTheCampfire I not exactly sure why I decided to do it. I think because writing in first person was to personal for me and cause me to take a break from the story. The MC pain felt to much like mine so I change it to using You instead of I while writing. I hope it turn out good.

[@zacmarulo8721]

I strongly disagree with your argument against second person fiction. I have read good 2nd person books like Bright Lights Big City and the broken earth series also uses it to great effect.

[@EmperorZelos]

First person is the second sin of writing. First sin is present tense.

[@AroundTheCampfire]

Oh man, you're going to hate my video about how first person present tense is OBJECTIVLEY THE BEST WAY TO WRITE A BOOK (NO EXCEPTIONS) 😂