Alternate WW1 Peacedeals || How Europe Could Have Looked

[@randomiusmaximus893]

imagine being a british conscript who survived the horrors of the war, you finally go home to you family and then you read the newspaper to finally discover what your service has brought to the new world and the headline reads “GERMANY LOSES WAR, GROWS BIGGER THAN EVER”

[@occam7382]

I'd imagine a hypothetical unification of Germany and Austria wouldn't occur until at least a year after the Armistice. So, it'd be more likely that this headline would read, "GREATER GERMANY BECOMES REALITY; AFGHANISTAN INVADES INDIA".

[@wildfire9280]

Considering just how rapidly anti-German the British press and public became, I doubt this would go down well.

[@Dracul91]

In practical terms, Germany wouldn't have increased in size but rather unified. Before the war, there were two distinct German states, each ruling over various ethnic minorities. After the war, these minorities would have gained independence, while the two remaining German states, Germany and Austria, would have merged. While this would have expanded Germany's territory on the map, Austria, as a separate state, would no longer exist. Given the context of World War II, where Austria would likely have aligned with Germany as anticipated, this would have been a superior solution. It would have effectively undermined the foundation of National Socialism. Hindsight is always clearer, but with our current knowledge, I believe this might have been the most impactful measure to prevent a second World War.

[@DinoRicky]

@@occam7382how would afganastan invade India 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@occam7382]

@@DinoRicky, they invaded India in real life, in 1919. It didn't work, but they still did it.

[@LebaneseAtHeart]

What if Norway 🇳🇴 conquered England in 1066 and and NOT Normandy

[@kartoffelkaiser322]

Fuck yeah

[@AmericanImperium1776]

Or even better: King Harold Godwinson defeated both the Norway and the Normans.

[@LebaneseAtHeart]

@@AmericanImperium1776 Yeah it would be interesting too! Other possible propositions: - What If Boudicca succeeded? - What If the son of King Henry the Eighth survived?

[@ThymeHere]

As a norwegian i agree

[@GwainSagaFanChannel]

​so basically more scandinavian norwegian influence in all of the english isles not only scotland pog

[@LegiyonEhellout]

Treaty on the Ottomans be like: "OK NOW it can't get any worse!.. OK NOW it can't get any worse!.. OK NOW it-"

[@yarpen26]

It was only after I first read about the ramifications of Sèvres that I understood why modern Turks worship Mustafa Kemal as much as they do. That treaty made even Brest-Litovsk look mild by comparison (not necessarilly Trianon, however, if anything, Hungary at the very least gained full independence from Austria, plus they hadn't really been a great power even in their former borders, as opposed to the Ottomans).

[@maciejbala477]

@@yarpen26 yeah, PH's explanation that the Ottomans were not treated as a European power rings true imo. Let's not forget that Wilson was a US southerner with racial ideas. Self-determination, sure, but only for Europeans. Ho Chi Minh reached out to him too to support self-determination for Vietnam, but the US supported France instead. Sevres was indeed far too unreasonably brutal on the Ottomans. I can understand Armenia, Kurdistan, and some minor Greek concessions, but actual colonization would have been outrageously unfair

[@korkukokusu8311]

timestamp pls

[@friekingfriening7715]

Denmark only took North Scheswig. Germany still retains South Schleswig (with the actual city of Schleswig). Hence why our federal state is still called Schleswig-Holstein.

[@ThorsteinnMemeson]

The border was actually drawn by referendum, as a result of Wilsons self determination principle. The area was overwhelmingly ethnically Danish. The reunification of north slesvig and denmark is still remembered very fondly by the people living there.

[@charmyzard]

Hopefully one day it's made less than nominal again.

[@datdumbguy1067]

If the US hadn’t defended us from angry France and Britain the Danish German border would’ve been the Eider river or the Kiel Canal. I am however Happy We only took the part with a Danish Majority.

[@concept5631]

​@@ThorsteinnMemeson Isn't that also the reason why the Nazi's didn't take territory from Denmark? As opposed to what they did to Belgium and France.

[@sh4bangg]

@@concept5631 Denmark was literally known in ww2 for fallling within 6 hours.....

[@Supaawesomeification]

As an Armenian American, the idea of American Armenia is hilarious but also low key kinda preferable to what actually happened. I’d have loved to see how modern Armenia would’ve turned out with American influence instead of Soviet

[@dcrggreensheep]

Well it's still a little feasable rn, I think most Americans support Armenia rn, do to the stuff Armenia's going to, but I agree I love that scenario and I don't even have any Armenian blood that I know of.

[@Supaawesomeification]

@@dcrggreensheep I really appreciate your optimism but I just can’t share it. Turkey is such a strong regional power in the Middle East, plus it’s a part of NATO and a strong American ally. No way they’ll allow any territorial changes. That mixed with the sad fact that since the genocide, there’s almost no Armenians left living within turkish borders. Adding that land would make Armenians nearly a minority in their own country. Besides, the Kurds have claims to a lot of historically Armenian lands around Lake Van now so there’s that to contend with too. TLDR, just too much to contend with, sadly not likely

[@ylmazirdenyazc8393]

​​@@Supaawesomeification TBH closest we can get to this scenerio is a more moderate Turkey after creating a joint team of historians to research the Genocide with Armenia like they tried before and as the result of this research likely accepting and apologizing for the Genocide and Allowing Armenians who can trace their origins back to Ottoman lands free citizenship and Armenia apologizing for the Revenge killings that followed, and Normalization of relations. Wich TBH isnt that far fetched in OTL since current generation is getting more secularized as a result of Conservative Erdoğanists rotting the Turkey inside out. İt all looks up to this election.

[@ayhan4472]

​@@ylmazirdenyazc8393 batı emperyalizmine boyun eğelim yani? Güçlü ve bağımsız devletlerin geçmiş suçları için özür dilediklerini görmezsin.

[@jonathanwilliams1065]

@@Supaawesomeificationmany of our people support Armenia even if the elites support Azerbaijan

[@yaitz3313]

Ironically, if Britain does give the Arabs a megastate as they promised, that actually makes an earlier independent Israel more likely as well, by the Feisal-Weizmann Agreement. That was a deal between Emir Faisal (third son of King Hussein of Hejaz, who was the guy the British had promised that state to) and Haim Weizmann that a commission would be established after the Paris Accords to draw a border between a Jewish state in Palestine and the new Arab state. However, Faisal conditioned his agreement on getting that big state, and when the Arabs didn't get their promised state, the agreement became irrelevant (and Faisal quickly became less interested in working with the Zionists in general). Had the British kept their promises, they could have achieved a situation that both the Jews and Arabs accepted in Palestine; but of course, the British had no interest in keeping their promises to ANYONE.

[@Madokaexe]

True, the British were masters of deceit.

[@NoFlu]

The eternal anglo does it again...

[@cantripleplays]

They did have interests in keeping promises to france

[@cantripleplays]

Only sometimes their own people

[@TheMightyP00tis]

A mega-arabia would have rolled over Israel in its infancy though.

[@jonathanwilliams1065]

Bulgaria’s restrictions were extremely harsh Not only did they loose even more territory after having been attacked by all their neighbors but also their army restrictions were extremely harsh, and the entente had control over how many rifles they could have and they weren’t even allowed to declare war, it was a truly Carthaginian peace

[@strugz10]

By Carthaginian peace do you mean the peace after the first Punic war or the second?

[@jonathanwilliams1065]

@@strugz10 second

[@tathemrelag3123]

16:20 You could make the peace deal harsher for Hungary by giving Sopron to Austria like the Entente originally intended, and by allowing the Romanians to push all the way to their "natural border" on the Tisza like they wanted.

[@vasilescupavel8566]

you could also give yugoslavia their occupied zone within hungary

[@peopleskingdomofwolcottia]

​@Gőzpöfögészeti Tovalöködönc no

[@Lp-army1]

@Gőzpöfögészeti Tovalöködönc don't get it also check his other comment in the channel lol

[@9_9876]

We didn't want border until the tisza, just some extra cities like Gyula and Becescskaba

[@twicethegalo]

​@@9_9876 Least nationalist balkan

[@francogiobbimontesanti3826]

Big Germany may not be that bad of an idea, maybe allowing Germany to unite with Austria kills the sentiment of humiliation and the Nazis never take power.

[@derusername7218]

the Nazis took power in Germany bc of the harsh economic downfall caused by the massive reparations it had to pay, so probably it would happen anyway

[@dano4996]

France would never accept it. You don't imagine how the french were outraged by Germany

[@DaDa-ui3sw]

​@@dano4996 Absolutely. I'm French myself and hearing people say this would be a good idea even though Germany literally pushed Europe to the worst conflict in its history after uniting through war 40 years earlier is just absolutely shameful. The Treaty of Versailles should have been way harsher to actually prevent Germany to rise ever again, because a united Germany before the new world order post-WW2 could only ever grow to be a bellicist and imperialist power within Europe.

[@stric9l0l]

@@DaDa-ui3sw that wouldn't work it would just start another war quicker like with the Turkish war of independents the allies figured out what to do with Germany after ww2 and in 1990

[@DaDa-ui3sw]

@@stric9l0l It could've perfectly worked, and Germany was in no position to rebel let alone win this hypothetical conflict anyway. In any case it was better than letting Germany grow once again into another monstruous threat to Europe as it eventually happenned.

[@m1n10ns8]

11:00 The americans actually wished to give bulgaria land during the treaties. Macedonia had been populated by bulgarians, and the americans did a census of the region, concluding the area was ethnically bulgar. They viewed serbia as already getting alot of land, that the Macedonians should be given the right to join their ethnic brothers.

[@unknown12367]

Except the area you're talking about is Vardarska, so the people there are Bulgarians, because Macedonia is in Greece

[@tyvamakes5226]

Hoi daar, PH. Speaking of dutch, any alt history of the UK of the Netherlands existing as a single state to the modern day? It most likely would be somewhat divided into provinces, with the French provinces given greater autonomy at the request of Britain to prevent France from getting any new land.

[@jameslebro6598]

The real questions here is basically: Does BeNeLux stand against both world wars, does Belgian chocolate and fries still exist and what about Kongo?

[@tyvamakes5226]

@Dr1fty Nah, more like BeNeLux still being ruled by the House of Orange.

[@AMINOMMA]

​@@jameslebro6598it would make the United Netherlands a massive colonial nation, both Congo and Indonesia would mean they control most of the rubber production in the world, a vital strategic resource. It also would be a Major European power with a population about half of Italy and France. And no way they would ever be able to be neutral in the world wars.

[@Malino8835]

I have now come to the conclusion that the policy of self determination seemingly makes any alt-hist scenario a schizophrenic free for all... I LOVE IT!

[@hardbassmonkey]

An Alternate History scenario with the "wilsonian" borders would be great

[@ale-xsantos1078]

Mounsier Z made one Its very interesting

[@hardbassmonkey]

​@@ale-xsantos1078 How is the Video called?

[@ale-xsantos1078]

@@hardbassmonkey "What if the 14 points actually succeeded? | Alternate History"

[@hardbassmonkey]

​@@ale-xsantos1078 Thank you

[@ale-xsantos1078]

@@hardbassmonkey You're welcome! Hope you have fun

[@Normal_Boii]

Damn, the French were really ambitious, weren't they?

[@Normal_Boii]

They want to occupy the sausage factories, that's why

[@dano4996]

France was animated by a pure hate of Germany. A great deal of their claims were directed against Germany. Syria and Lebanon were French influenced region even before their colonization. I think the most imperialists nations in the war were Germany and Russia but both were defeated

[@yj4003]

E😊

[@alexzero3736]

No. If I were French general I d at least occupy Saarland.

[@ale-xsantos1078]

Its almost like the country had a *Napoleon* Complex...

[@EenYouTubeGebruiker]

You only forgot Belgian imperial ambitions in the Netherlands. They wanted the Limburg province as compensation for neutral Netherlands secretly allow the Germans to cross that territory. And they wanted Zeeuws-Vlaanderen to get better sea access for the Port of Antwerp. Small things that could've extended WOI if Belgium got what it wanted.

[@yunwenzhu2193]

Really? I did not find anything from Internet about this claim.

[@gengarzilla1685]

I'd believe this though. Belgium was as much fuelled by revenge as France was.

[@maciejbala477]

Belgium did also originally hold Dutch Limburg in their independence in 1830 I believe, but was forced to give it up because the area wanted to be Dutch

[@AMINOMMA]

The Belgians would never get Dutch territory, it would completely upset the balance of power in that region+ fuel Dutch revanchism for a war they weren't even involved in. It's more likely that Belgium would be split between France and the Netherlands (along ethnic lines) than Belgium acquiring any territory

[@MrSomervillen]

This was a really cool video! Thanks for putting this together.

[@mr.spaghettiarms1473]

Your French led partition of Germany looks like a mod for hoi4 Fuherreich

[@liolioos]

that's because the mod is based off of this treaty

[@georgios_5342]

12:11 areas in Southern Bulgaria (the region of Eastern Rumelia) and along the Black Sea (Euxine Pontus) had significant Greek populations that were exchanged with the treaty. It is not unthinkable to have Nevrokopi, Petritsi, Pyrgos, Philipoupoli, Sozopoli, Koulata or at least some of them, become a part of Greece together with Thrace (at least, in a world where Greece retains majority Greek Eastern Thrace)

[@Benefartamemia]

Maybe even all of rumelia if it would be an harsh harsh treaty

[@mcsroom8930]

@@Benefartamemia greece doesnt want that, this would just result in a massive Bulgarian uprising the same way it happened in turkay and considering Bulgairans and Turks now have the same enemy greece would be facing a two front war and needing the occupy a population that is probably 2 times larger then theirs, so greece would never do that as its just a suicide plan that can backfire so much that greece loses all gains made in the war and even more maybe

[@MelyhGG]

WTF R U TALKING ABOUT THRACE IS TURKISH

[@christos3280]

​@@MelyhGG 😂

[@zottirgen]

I like to listen to endless dreams of megali idea enthusiasts and tell them their hopes were ended by someone who was actually born on their own soil

[@jj70098]

Super interesting video. Thanks for covering alternate timelines related to this monumental moment in world history.

[@donnyreuvers9588]

Interesting detail to add here on Belgium ambitions; Belgium actually wanted to annex Dutch Flanders and most of Limburg

[@glitch_editz]

There's an alternate universe where there's a video talking about how Europe could've looked like how it looks now

[@skeletonkeysproductionskp]

Brilliant video, it was perfect!!! So happy for your continued success, may it spread to us all!

[@datbo1]

I think it's more realistic that most of sudetes goes to germany and that southern part goes to austria

[@vermull19]

Are you kidding that the best thing would be a complete division of the Bohemian Crown Lands. Never. On the contrary, the best would be to get back Silesia and Lusatia and create another Switzerland, where people would not define themselves by language but by their country, as they did for 1000 years before Panslavism and Pangermanism. And the merging of the South Germans (Bavaria, Württemberg, Baden, Hessen) with Austria and Liechtenstein to create e.g. Greater Bavaria and Prussia more like Saxon lands, since Prussia would become part of Lithuania. Upper Hungary (Slovakia) and Transylvania would remain part of Hungary. And Poland would have the current borders without Silesia. This would have created 4 historically connected entities of almost equal size, keeping each other in check and in the middle of the Czech lands. Yes, unthinkable in a situation of growing Pangermanism and German reciprocity, and in a situation of growing conflict between Panslavism and Pangermanism in the Czech lands at that time, but it would be the best solution for Central Europe without these stupid ideologies.

[@tompatterson1548]

@@vermull19 So, give Silesia and Lusatia to Czechoslovakia?

[@adamrogowski2748]

Great video, man! Keep them coming!

[@EpicgamerwinXD6669]

Allow me to make a suggestion for a future video. The four nations that were originally proposed to be given permanent seats on the UN security council were The United States, The Soviet Union, Britain, and The Republic of China. Eventually, France would also be given a permanent seat, but before that, The United States proposed that Brazil should be given the fifth permanent seat on the security council. Not sure how much different the world would be if Britain, The Soviet Union, and Brazil themselves would have accepted those terms (The Republic of China was evidently fine with that arrangement), but maybe it would make all the difference, who knows?

[@prohacker5086]

Why brasil?

[@damonedrington3453]

@@prohacker5086 well the US/UK and USSR/China created two equal sized blocs in the security council. Brazil was at the time considered to be a rising power in South America and was also considered to be neutral to both sides. There would then be a neutral third party to mediate between the two sides, although it was denied because Brazil is realistically gonna stick with the west considering the other superpower is north of them

[@dcrggreensheep]

@@damonedrington3453 China at the time was ROC which was on the western side

[@gengarzilla1685]

Not all the way. There were still so many significant differences between the republican Chinese and the Imperialist westerners. China in that era was much closer to the USA than Britain or France.

[@cesarzpontu8886]

Boring

[@enderkatze6129]

Ngl i was expecting an Exploration of proposed alternate peacedeals of IRL, but this is just as good

[@maugoiii7024]

At 8:49 you said Italy got the Dodecanese Islands, but Italy had already got them in 1912

[@possiblehistory]

True! But the Italians were (meant) to return the island to the Ottomans eventually, it wasn't to be a permanent Italian holding. Then WW1 broke out, which obviously prevented Italy from returning the territory since they were at war with the Ottomans, and the treaty of Sevres then confirmed and officially ceded control over the islands "permanently" to Italy.

[@maugoiii7024]

@@possiblehistory I didn't know, thanks for the clarification

[@mapperofalthistory03]

@@possiblehistory I don’t think Italians would give it

[@TheLocalLt]

@@possiblehistory this was similar to the case with Egypt, which from 1888-1914 was under British occupation but was still recognized as an Ottoman vassal, however upon the Ottoman Empire’s entry into World War I the British declared an official British protectorate in Egypt.

[@bab0ulas]

This is how the world would look like if HOI IV peace conference mechanics applied irl

[@goshlike76]

8:15 Treaty of Sevres the harshest treaty ever. *Meanwhile Hungarians after Trianon* "Well guess we can just fucking die"

[@vadaa4]

​​@TovalokodoncThe treaty of Sevres was denounced by new Turkish state (We had 2 governments at that time). So Sevres was never actually implemented. But it is still the harshest. "The treaty after Atatürk" is completely different it is called Treaty of Lausanne.

[@vadaa4]

@Tovalokodonc i didn't mean to twist your words, just wanted you to know difference since i thought you didn't

[@MemeMan69]

Well yes the german "invasion" of 1870... not like it was a french war of aggression... Yes Bismarck wanted the war, but still invasion is the wrong word.

[@occam7382]

"Offensive" is a more accurate term.

[@TheLocalLt]

Edit: I’m wrong France did launch a campaign across the Saar France declared war but I don’t believe they actually invaded North Germany nor the Catholic German states, instead it was the North Germans (led by Bismarck and Prussia), with the Catholics in tow, who launched the military expedition and invaded Lotharingia

[@occam7382]

@@TheLocalLt, France did try to invade Saarland at the beginning of the war... it just went horribly wrong for them and they were immediately pushed back into France.

[@TheLocalLt]

@@occam7382 wow I didn’t remember that, seems rather like the Battle of the Frontiers in WWI or the Saar Offensive in WWII

[@TheLocalLt]

@@occam7382 wow I didn’t remember that, seems rather like the Battle of the Frontiers in WWI or the Saar Offensive in WWII

[@SealChonker]

21:30 France with the Rhineland looks like France flipping off Germany

[@occam7382]

Because that's exactly what it is.

[@ThePikminCaptain]

@@occam7382one could image the headlines in that alternate timeline “France flips the bird towards Germany!”

[@alexandrub8786]

26:15 my problem with the "imperialists revansist" border map is that Romania doesn't have the "natural borders" on the Tisza river,on what i know that was also a claim from the Romanian side alongside "West Banat" or the Vojivodina lands on the left bank of the Danube river.

[@BK-gl8it]

Would it be possible that Austria and Tschecheslovakia opted to remain one country? I mean they spoke different languages, but they had very longstanding ties and the Austrians didn't treat their non Germany speaking territories so badly.

[@martinkudlacek9915]

Czechs were treated like 2nd class citizens. They were the most industrial and on of the highest economic regions in AH but had virtually no self representation. Bohemia/Moravia were a kingdom long before Austria when Austria was a mere duchy.

[@noldo3837]

No.

[@gengarzilla1685]

Austria was to Czechia like the Netherlands was to Belgium, merely foreign subjugators over a much more industrialised land. That Austro-Bohemian union would go no better than the failed United Netherlands.

[@cesarzpontu8886]

​@@martinkudlacek9915 that's a lie. Czechs were treated good by austria-hungary. What you are saying is Masaryk's propaganda.

[@AMINOMMA]

​@@gengarzilla1685 the Dutch were a lot less foreign to Belgium than the Austrians were to Czechs so that comparison is pretty dumb. The reason the Belgians wanted independence was because King Willem treated the Belgian parts with disdain and didn't give them representation. At the beginning the flemish were actually glad to be united with their fellow dutch speakers. This was never the case for czechs, you simply don't have a clue.

[@Ma_ksi]

6:48 What? No, Romania already had southern Dobrunja from the second Balkan war.

[@possiblehistory]

You are correct. I should have said the *return* of Dobruja to Romania, as Bulgaria had taken control over it during the war, but it was officially still part of Romania.

[@alexandrub8786]

​@@possiblehistory well souther dobruja was under bulgarian control but the rest was under Central Power administration.

[@thecatsari]

​​@@possiblehistory "return" But drobrudja was actually bulgarian before the second Balkan war. So Bulgaria tried to return it. That's the reason Bulgaria joined the war(and Macedonia end Central Trackey too).

[@peoplesrepublicofbeesechur7179]

Controversial opinion: Sudeten-Austria doesn't actually look that bad

[@AmericanImperium1776]

Agreed, although I would prefer Austria and all of the Czech Republic merging into a new dual Monarchy under the Habsburgs. But I’m just fantasizing.

[@FilipFCB]

Probably because you saw it before and are used to it. I'd bet that if you saw it for the first time, without ever seeing a map of Europe before, that you would also see how terrible the borders are.

[@ooi97]

the clear solution is to give Sudetenland to Germany and leave the rest of Austria independent, possibly granting it some lands from southern Germany (maybe to thicken that panhandle into some managable.) Austro-Bavaria, anyone?

[@peoplesrepublicofbeesechur7179]

@@ooi97 Maybe Northern sudetenland to Germany and Southern to Austria (with maybe southern Oberbayern included)?

[@Ellisepha]

​@@ooi97 Austro-Bavaria would be interesting. The linguist in me also wonders if this state would possibly reform the Bavarian dialects spoken in the majority of this region into a standardised Language. But I guess for this to happen the sentiment to fully seperate from Germany would have to be strong.

[@Monty14R]

This helped me make a funny alternate history story with my friend about ww2

[@Catitect]

In the map for the second balkan war,you forgot to show that romania took southern dobruja

[@whatifthishappened]

Can you do an alternative WW2 peace deals btw love your videos

[@MaceY._.]

Treaty of Trianon could also have been worse: -Yugoslavia wanted Pécs (a Southern Hungarian city) -Romania wanted the river Tisza as the natural border between Romania and Hungary -Czechoslovakia wanted to share border with Yugoslavia to fully encricle Hungary with the Little Entente members. There were no real plans to how to make this possible, but if the encirclement was the plan I think Czechs and Yugos would split the western part of Hungary between each other. So on the whole: in the worst case Hungary would exist only between the river Danube and river Tisza (in Hungarian: Duna-Tisza köze) p.s.: We had a mottos about Wilson and self-determination that time: "From Wilson, we want only Wilson peace"

[@eugenekostrin2109]

the natural borders between Romania and Hungary are the Carpatians, not Tisza)

[@MaceY._.]

@@eugenekostrin2109 because of the current borders. The stupidity of Little Entente was limitless. They can lie about anything just to gain land.

[@maciejbala477]

Slovakia wanted Miskolc as well

[@khmil_0]

Hello from Ukraine🇺🇦. Great alternative scenario, always interesting and informative.

[@dancooper-z]

Hi, all the best to your country, and take care 🙏

[@khmil_0]

@@dancooper-z Thank you! I really appreciate this kind words :)

[@ÇALAKNÊT]

Slava Ukrayini

[@khmil_0]

@@ÇALAKNÊT Героям Слава!

[@GlassJoe1337]

What if the US pushed the Oregon territory claim with a plan to then annex more of Mexico? As a way to keep with the free and slave state compromise while still working within the Missouri compromise agreement? Basically US looking at modern British Columbia, Alberta, Yukon and the northwest territories to break up into states.

[@Kripiiiiiiii]

23:41 Sorbia is in Saxony and they touch Czechian border so they're not surrounded.

[@ThatDudeLuffy]

Is nobody talking about how Independent Rhineland looks identical to Serbia?

[@nicolasmatheusfernandesdos6229]

That David Lloyd George quote is hilarious. Peak british humor

[@sachacendra3187]

In the fully "Free determination of People" scenario, as a Swiss, a little unrealistic musing came to me: Voralberg could have been forcibly given to Switzerland. The entente was mostly against it, but there are some evidence i believe France at some point wanted to give the entire Tyrol to Switzerland, and we have the historical precedent of Denmark being forced to annex part of Schleswig so it would not be entirely out of the picture. A Voralberg annexation could have resulted in really bad destabilisation within Switzerland since both the Italians and Romands would have become even more of a minority. In a best case scenario, maybe a Jura Canton would have been created within Switzerland to balance the creation of a new german speaking canton and even more improbably, Grischun could have been split between Romanic and Germanic parts. In worse scenario it would have resulted in social turmoil that'd either result into a Belgium-like solution where each communities get their own state within a very lose confederation or a partition either into three states or between neighboring countries with for example annexation of the Italian speaking region by italy. Romandy staying independant would be probable in such a scenario i'd say but absorption into France is also likely even if less so than the Italian speaking region.

[@TheRatattat]

Drink every time you hear "wilson's idea of self determination"

[@Swbossdestroyer]

Why does the rhineland look like modern day serbia💀

[@mikkelengstrm3759]

Actually, Denmark decided to put the territories of schleswig, Holstein and Lauenburg to a vote, where Danes and Germans could vote on what nation they wanted to belong to. In zone 1 (northern schleswig), the whole block voted as one. In zone 2 and 3 (Southern Schleswig and Holstein), individual cities could decide to join either side. The hope from the Danish side was to ensure zone 1 became Danish, while hoping some German cities joined Denmark, most notably Flensburg. Although Denmark didn't just take all these territories (because Germany would want them back), the voting system was still slanted in Denmark's favor, since some of the cities in northern Schleswig were likely to vote for Germany, and this actually happened in cities such as Tønder, Sønderborg and Haderslev, but because the rest of zone 1 voted to be Danish, these cities became Danish too. It is an interesting topic, which anyone interested should check out!

[@georgios_5342]

About the Treaty of Sevres, I wanted to note that first of all, Italy was never getting all of that land, and the spheres of influence were only meant as economic/free trade areas. Afterall, Italy never had the military might to protect its claims, and even allowed Turkey to attack Greek positions through them. The only country with actual ethnic claims and also a military strong enough to impose them there was Greece. Eastern Thrace, Constantinople, Ionia, Bithynia, Pontus and Caria were Greek claims in the Paris Peace Convention, and all of these regions were more than 50% Greek, as well as had significant Jewish, Franco-Levantine and Armenian communities. Turks only made 35-45% of the population in any one of these areas, with the possible exception of Constantinople itself, which was 55% Turkish but in an ethnic Greek region + surrounded by majority Greek regions on all sides. In the end, the reason why Turkey got Eastern Thrace is that the Entente forces Greece to accept Turkish domination over the Straights, because Ataturk had agreed to all their concessions and was being supported by them. All of Eastern Thrace had even voted in Greek elections, as a normal part of Greece, in 1920. And they voted for Venizelos. Adrianople, Kalipoli, Saranda Ekklisies and Rhaedestos were all not just Greek cities, but Greek prefectures at the time

[@marcusaustralius2416]

Man, we really should've let the Megali Idea go through, perhaps Greece might actually be a more prosperous country today, the Hagia Sofia would be rightfully restored and the cultural heritage of Constantinople and Smyrna wouldn't be at risk of constant looting from vandals and nationalists

[@alexzero3736]

​@@marcusaustralius2416 I disagree. There were too much claims in Anatolia, with Turkish majority towns. At best Greece could have Smyrna, Eastern Thrace and Constantinople. Plus Aegan islands.

[@tk5gqj514]

Only country who had strong enogh military to impose was not Greece, it was made so by the British supports to Greece, so they could end the Turkish resistance. UK deliberatly allowed Greece to land on İzmir to force the treaty on the Ottoman Goverment, and used them to indirectly fight the Turkish National Movement. Which is also the reason why İtaly never helped neither Greece or France against the Turks, and left their claimed areas without a fight, because the city was promised to them earlier. Plus there was also the French Army in the southern front of the war of independence. France could impose the treaty but chose not to, since the war had already costed them too much casualties and would cause more if they were to force the treaty. So they decided cost would be too much and decided to peace with the Turks with treaty of ankara. Why Turkey got Eastern Thrace was because the whole Greek Army of Asia Minor was forced to flee Anatolia by Turkish Army (National movement) and Greece was in no place to negotiate. İn fact even the ceasefire agreement was done between Turks and British, despite the war was fought with Greeks. Atatürk was not supported against Greece, it was the other way around but Greece failed to impose the treaty since France decided to peace in South and Armenia was defeated in East.

[@georgios_5342]

@@tk5gqj514 What I'm saying is that the Greeks were the ones that fought and died for Anatolia. Yes, the British and French had the diplomatic leverage, they pulled the strings from behind the scenes. But the main fighting parties were Greece and Turkey. The British and French took advantage of us. And no, Turkey didn't get Eastern Thrace because Greece couldn't fight. But, after the collapse of the Greek government and the military coup d'etat, the British and French forced Venizelos to accept a treaty by which Turkey would be the only one to control the Dardanelles. And this was done because Kemal accepted all the terms of the westerners, while the military government in Greece didn't

[@tk5gqj514]

@@georgios_5342 What terms did Kemal accept of Westerners? Also straits were not controlled only by Turkey after the war of imdependence, Turkey had very limited control, it was ruled by an international comitee and was not allowed to be militarized until the Montreux Convention in 1936. The British yes, only supported Greece and not directly fought, but France did fought directly against the Turkish National Movement in South, and Armenia too even though their front didn't last much long. So Greeks were not the only ones that fought, but definetly the one who most fought for their claims.

[@MARK-gp9hb]

Czechoslovakia was basically declaring indipendence from Austria-Hungary before the end of the war, one of the reasons why Austria-Hungary surrendered in fact, that's why it became independent.

[@Loumiya]

Sorbs mentioned >:3 i'm not one but i'm still happy cause i live in the area

[@battlnerd2128]

i do think that simply including the Megali Idea and Dmowski's Line as the "imperial ambitions" peace deal would be a better choice than what's shown in the video

[@AlphaSections]

Too bad I would've liked an American-Armenia. Imagine a lot of the troubles they had later on would've never happened. Perhaps maybe Armenia could've gotten the Japan treatment and been given the chance to prosper with the US protecting them from hostile countries. For once, a truly prosperous nation in the middle east without authoritarianism.

[@bastiaanverheul4076]

I love the Pokemon Conquest music you put in, immediately recognized it. Such a great game!

[@HerzogAndrean]

The self determination scenario is kinda based ngl.

[@DaDa-ui3sw]

no

[@HerzogAndrean]

@@DaDa-ui3sw French ultranationalist eh?

[@DaDa-ui3sw]

@@HerzogAndrean it just absolutely makes no sense for Germany to gain territories after losing the war.. and the way he presented Alsace as remaining German in this scenario even though the Alsaciens wanted back in France makes no sense and is acc insulting.

[@HerzogAndrean]

@@DaDa-ui3sw The fact that you are this upset about a hypothetical scenario presented in a video on YT is pretty revealing and kinda sad.

[@DaDa-ui3sw]

@@HerzogAndrean im not upset nor debating the interest of the scenario lmaooo im just explaining what is factually wrong in this video, you not being able to face these facts as a German and taking it as an offense despite the efforts for memory in your country really is what's sad and revealing :)

[@lospolloshermanos927]

0:59 "not allowing this to happen again" 🗿

[@dominicadrean2160]

Can you make a video on what if Richard the lionheart survived and live longer because they're not a single alternate-history video on KZbin about Richard the lionheart which is surprising because if he survived a lot of history with changed

[@oliverparrish5470]

If argue that trianon was harsher than sevres because sevres was never truly enforced and instead renegotiated to a much more minor terms. Meanwhile trianon was atleast atleast close if not equally harsh (arguably the strictest military restirctions and greatest land loss).

[@amazingallosaur6196]

Most videos are 8 months old, this is 16 min. Feels illegal

[@showercurtain9749]

Seeing the scale of the peace treaties after ww1 and how harsh they were on the central powers reinforces my belief that most of the worlds issues can be trace back to France

[@AustrianKaiser]

Varsailles was harsh in terms of war reparation, not that harsh in borders changes

[@wakpuissant5780]

not even at all versailles was gentle to Germany. France have lose more AND pay more war reparation to Germany after the Franco-prussian war and after the french revoltion

[@mghia0189]

CONGRATS ON 30k SUBSCRIBERS!

[@sqwong3947]

Hi PH, I have an interesting scenario: what if During the succession of Suleiman the magnificent, Mustafa was the one to come out on top instead of Selim the second?

[@yamanuygur8084]

Or: What if after Mehmet II, Cem came into power instead of Bayezid II?

[@Stranglehold138]

Having grown up among at the time displaced people from Croatia and Bosnia in the 80s I have a hard time imagining the Bosnians and much less the Croations wanting to be self-determined under the Serbian mini-Orcs. Just look at what happened in the 90s. Now that was self-determination.

[@ivanvidovic5995]

Germany loses war and becomes larger than ever. In words of Todd Howard it just works.

[@pc_suffering6941]

Congrats, you've basically recreated Fuhrerreich

[@memesd4675]

19:09 There also was talks about an Assyrian nation being made so there could be been either an Independent Kurdistan and Assyria or a Kurdish-Assyrian Union which would totally be stable and wouldn't be divided ethnically or religiously

[@ÇALAKNÊT]

Wasn’t all that serious compared to the Kurdish calls for nation-building

[@memesd4675]

@@ÇALAKNÊT I would say with Wilson's Self Determination Policy, there's a chance it might happen. Besides, the British promised it in our timeline (which never happened as we know) so it's not impossible to be implemented. Besides, they did already create blends of cultures into 1 nation which includes Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia

[@beneheld]

Tbh, I love how the independent rhineland looks like modern day serbia xD

[@donutsteelthisname1088]

you should've included russian ambitions for if they actually won the war, maybe a separate scenario for if russia won ww1?

[@alexungureanu6574]

In the treaty of trianon Romania pushed to get to the Tisa river,so there was a worst outcome for Hungary.

[@The-Plaguefellow]

22:58 - 24:39 _"Ending 1/5: Germany Fails Upwards"_

[@datbo1]

all the balkans possessions of austria-hungary were actually given independence and could choose their own paths. We opted to make a proto-yugoslavia which was a democratic state, but due to a shabby economy and low recognition it lasted less than a month and we accepted to merge with serbia and montenegro. Morphing from the State of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs, into the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes (Yes, they did change the name placements, I am not making it up).

[@AtomicSub]

Why does the Rhineland look like Serbia?

[@flameguy3416]

Woodrow Wilson's 13th point was mega based

[@rogerroger9960]

I also think its important to notate that the borders drawn in the middle east werent necessarily thought up and considered solely by europeans. A lot and honestly most of the norders used by the allied powers were what the ottomans had for different regions within the empire.

[@Iceclipsrlul]

I can't unsee this but Rhineland in the thumbnail looks like Serbia

[@zakthebigmac1431]

2:18 jumpscare

[@jacobtuell3157]

14:20 Why Pokemon Conquest music?

[@s.t.384]

Gosh i knew sevres was harsh but not this harsh

[@ÇALAKNÊT]

Trianon:

[@shminglington]

i love the video already

[@georgios_5342]

24:40 southern Albania, Yugoslavia, Italy, Bulgaria and all of coastal Turkey included large Greek populations still, that amounted to millions of Greeks. So it's not true self determination, but I guess it's better than nothing.

[@filipporiva2555]

Greeks in Italy? perhaps 2,000 years earlier.

[@andreaperazzolo7095]

26:00 "...results in this monstrosity of a map" *the guy who drew Hoi4 FührerReich map* 😢

[@Tommuli_Haudankaivaja]

American Armenia is definitely a blursed thing.

[@kingpaddy9009]

0:50 correction the Franco-Prussian-War wasn't a german invasion. It was the pride of Napoleon III. and than of the Republic government that let them starting and continuing a lost war and forced prussian troops to occupy much of france and lay siege to Paris. The germans acted on behalf of defending themselves, and ending the war quickly.

[@wakpuissant5780]

it was france who attack Germany but it germany who provoc france and do all they can for push france to war and france dosen't get in prussian land so we can say it a german invasion

[@khalilderbali6628]

Can you please do what if the normans lost the battle of Hastings?

[@DaDa-ui3sw]

They couldn't. Alternative history becomes interesting when there is a glimpse of possibility.

[@KaiHung-wv3ul]

@@DaDa-ui3sw I mean, they almost did until the English chased the retreating Normans off the hill and onto the field, allowing the Norman knights to butcher them. I would like to see a "What if the Normans Conquered the Byzantines" under Bohemond de Hauteville scenario though. l love the Byzantines, but knights are awesome.

[@benpikachu8390]

Actually allies forced ottoman to sign the treaty of sevres but with the turkish war of independence, Mustafa Kemal and Turkish army fought back and created the modern day borders, Excluding Hatay which Joined Turkiye in 1939 from French Syria

[@legaullonapoleonien8760]

At the beggining of the video, he says that the english goal was to save France from further invasion, the threat from the german navy had to be neutralized and the strenghtening of their empire and the english didn't follow the french for the annihilation of Germany. The results ? France wasn't safe from further German invasion, the Germans challenged the sea again and the destruction of WW2 weakened the english colonial empire. They should have follow us but with their wish of saving the european balance of power led them right into their demise. The French was best plan !

[@podvalja]

hot take : give southern sudetenland to austria and the northern and central rest to germany

[@ThorsteinnMemeson]

4:23 Northern slesvig was majority danish. The border was decided by referendum following President Wilsons self determination principle. The area had been majority danish since the middle ages, and was only breifly ruled by germany after Prussia conquered it in 1864. The liberation and reunification with northern Slesvig is still remembered very fondly in that part of Denmark.

[@themakebelieverproductions6342]

David Lloyd George was giving Wilson a lot of praise by calling him Jesus Christ, jeez

[@AmericanImperium1776]

Hey, I have an interesting scenario: After the collapse of the USSR Poland, The Baltics, Czechs & Slovaks, the rest of the former Warsaw Pact and Ukraine & Belarus formed an Intermarrium instead of joining NATO. It would be cool if you could cover it in a scenario. Peace ✌🏻 and keep up the great work. 😎👍

[@tyvamakes5226]

1. Why would the West Slavic country even create the Intermarrium, unless NATO dissolves shortly after the Soviet collapse. 2. I honestly don't see Lukashenko being in unison with the more liberal thinking Poland and Czechia.

[@AmericanImperium1776]

@@tyvamakes5226 NATO could be dissolved I guess if someone like Pat Buchanan became President and as for Lukashenko you’re probably right, so cut out Belarus. Honestly, I just want to see this scenario, regardless of realism.

[@mariasirona1622]

​@@tyvamakes5226 "liberal"? Czechia maybe, but Poland is literally a consernazi dystopia

[@AmericanImperium1776]

@@mariasirona1622 conservn*zi? Really? Don’t you think you’re being a bit dramatic?

[@AmericanImperium1776]

@Saraj • Сарай Thanks, so Belarus could still join.

[@TheKiwiCache]

Why did the music from the Forest of Hope from Pikmin start playing around 10:00

[@shuginubi]

24:30 is THE map. if it would be this way, there wouldn't be ww2. Wilson has the best proposal in a long run, because indebting somebody for their wrongdoing is one thing, but cutting off parts of the body for that..

[@BeSk9991]

Well but then you can get in the fight over what nationality and ethnicity is. Because for example DNA research shows Czechs and Austrians are closer (more similar haplogroups) than Czechs and Slovaks. And that's because we were a part of one state with Austrians since like 15th century. Also the border regions are "German" because Czech kings invited Germans to settle those regions in 11-13th century. So the only reason there were problems after WW1 are different languages. Those regions were never part of Germany, they have been part of Czech lands since 8th century. And similarly, HUngarians and Slovaks have almost the same dna, because they were part of one state and mixed a lot. Whereas movement between Germany and Habsburg empire wasn't free, so the similarity in ethnicity is lower. All problems could have been avoided if Austria-Hungary transformed into some form of United States of Central Europe - with each nationality getting their own state, but being part of a bigger federal country. That would deter Germans from annexing Austria, would not make Hungarians hungry to cooperate with Nazis to get back territories (as they would have the Hungarian majority territories) and other stuff.

[@unknown12367]

What about greeks in the ottoman empire

[@vansglitches1192]

Couldn't there be an alternate ww2 with either of these maps 🤔

[@morsecode980]

Before watching the vid: Germany keeping Alsace-Lorraine like in the thumbnail is a great way to ensure there’s not peace in Europe

[@matthiuskoenig3378]

Only because France was imperialist.

[@AmericanIronica]

25:55 it seems I have found an error

[@savagedarksider2147]

What if Edward IV had married Isabella of Castile ? What if Mary I gave birth to A son ? What if Richard III won the Battle of Bosworth ?

[@segiraldovi]

1) That scenario would be very interesting, but I have a feeling that the English would meddle and they would not allow both kingdoms to be unified. 2)If the son is killed I think it would start a full-scale war throughout Europe because he would be the legitimate heir to England and Spain. And in case he is not assassinated, the war would start when he grew up and decided to claim the throne of England 3)Any different result in the war of the roses is unpredictable, Henry VIII and Elizabeth I were such important figures that I don't know if they can be replicated.

[@robertortiz-wilson1588]

I really enjoyed this one!

[@maxschon7709]

No, If the Wilson Version would have made Austria wouldn't join Germany but Germany get splitted into southern Germany + Austria and northern Germany. The New southern state would included Bavaria, Baden and Würtemberg and Austria.

[@maxschon7709]

There was also the idea of a state of Bavaria, Austria and Hungary called Danubia. That would be a consequence of a four state solution: Northern and southern Rhineland, Prussia-saxony, and Danubia.

[@browneyeofsauron1244]

I was literaly just wanting you to do a video about this.