Alto Carbon Clincher Brake Track Testing presented by Spark Wheel Works

[@robertwilke1208]

Looks like the 404 took no damage. Just the heat caused the tire to fail. Good wheel.

[@altocycling866]

It is a very good rim! Unfortunately our photo wasn't great. The rim did fail, but only slight delamination on the inside wall of the hook. It opened up just enough to let the tire blow out, but the rim was is pretty good shape overall!

[@martinullrich655]

One important thing is missing in the test! The airstream (50 km/h or more) reduces the heatload on the rim. I was using ZIPP 303 with tubular tires in a hobbyrace TRANSALP - acc. my Polar data: 1.400 m descent in 14 min (= 840 sek) --> 1471 W (significant longer and stronger breaking than in the test) - and nothing happend to the rim!!! To my understanding the cooling of the airstream makes the difference!

[@mansteinman]

I do too with firecrest

[@MrSokar86]

*Looked at a lot of options for getting my **Latest.Bike** . Great find in SAVA. Super light, nice components, really good value as it comes with many options only found in much higher priced bikes.*

[@djmmtb4571]

Why did the speed on the alto never drop? Suggests either the pressure on the break was lower or even worse the brakes don’t grip. Think I would rather a run that would break under conditions that could never be recreated in the real world than one that refuses to slow down 🙄

[@hawam9834]

Thank you, you convinced me to get disk brakes.

[@rickcski8082]

Speeds are higher with the Alto, temps are lower and they run longer. Makes me think I wouldn't be able to stop if using an Alto wheel. You guys put Teflon on the brake track?

[@yiutun2149]

😆 😆 😆 😆

[@Christian-sh9uh]

Only proves the Alto has the least effective braking surface. Brakes transfer rotational energy into heat. These spun the fastest and coolest. I would rather risk a delamination than risk overshooting every corner.

[@altocycling866]

Please note that the increase in wheel speed was due to pad glazing, which occurs when the brake pad is at sustained high temperatures for a long period of time. This is a function of the pad, and happens with every wheel given enough time. Also note that, in the phase 2 Alto test, the rim runs slower (19.3mph) and with higher friction force than any other rim, but still for 20 minutes and at lower temperatures. This is because our new resin is capable of conducting heat more efficiently and acting as a heat sink to pull energy away from the brake track more quickly. Please let me know if you have any other questions at all!

[@Music-tp8vp]

I'm not an expert by any means but this test was not scientific and controlled as you'd made it out to be. If the brakes don't cause the same resistance on your rims as they did on the others then there's going to be less heat generated. More resistance equals more heat build up. So the rims cause the brakes to glaze sooner than the other rims? That would indicate that the brakes used on these rims were less efficient, correct?

[@nerdalert545]

@@Music-tp8vp See above

[@humprey2]

Not convinced at all. For example, theres no guarantee that the rig braking force applied to all wheels was the same? Which is kinda proven by different spin speeds. Also, the value "time to 120F" is counterintuitive.

[@lightofheaven134]

I guess i'll be purchasing Alto wheels for my next set up. Was planning to buy Enve's but the damage it took in this experiment isn't worth the expensive buck. I own a ZIPP 808 firecrest and i could fairly say that it's the best decision i've made several years ago after seeing this experiment.

[@CreamyBone]

So this proves Alto rims have the least bite? ;)

[@philadams9254]

Woah! Would love to see this done with some cheap Chinese rims, especially the mega-light 20mm ones. They are apparently a death trap but there's no actual data.

[@caronbeamwheels4606]

chinese good rims

[@zeqilox2931]

@@caronbeamwheels4606 actually not

[@joshrichards3791]

Why was the alto wheels ran at an entire mile per hour faster? That reduces static friction and could lead to a longer time to failure.

[@vincelivingston853]

Pertinent and fun video, but trying to understand if someone would knowingly ride their brakes non-stop for 3+ minutes to wheel failure.

[@TheOrgil220]

On a long steep descend, it is likely.

[@batbawls]

Bravo, Roval. Rider RIP

[@omerfurtun4115]

On a side note: Scientific Experiment utilizing ONLY FAHRENHEIT WTF!!!

[@mrfailure93]

a little hard to believe that this company I've never heard of is that much better at making wheels than all of these other popular brands. Just looks like alto brakes suck at stopping.

[@altocycling866]

Every rim slows to within 1mph of each other for a given caliper load, and the Alto rims slow to 19.3mph for a 9lb load in Phase 2. The average adult has a grip strength of 100lbs, so the difference of a few pounds to alter rim speed by

[@user-uh6lm5wv6n]

Exactly another complete bullshit piece of propaganda. Love how these carbon wheel tests never include Campagnolo Boras or Hyperons.

[@luisarroyo6594]

Who rides their brakes that long? I think this video is better used as part of a presentation to your spouse as to why you need a new bike with disc brakes. “Sweetie look how dangerous these are, I need that new trek madone project one bike.”

[@user-uh6lm5wv6n]

Best comment so far lol

[@Quivivravelo]

nicely said but for those who are heavy weight or for those who are not confident on descents ,disc is a solution but carbon rims wheels if well treated can last for a long moment.

[@parmijo]

Every club cyclist knows someone that has carbon clincher failure if not themselves. But the carbon clinchers with alloy brake tracks (shimano c35 and c50) seem super reliable. But yes, a small weight penalty.

[@catsbyondrepair]

I run aluminum the risk of death is not worth the weight savings.

[@awixkweg]

Test Aluminum wheels and post please. It would be awesome to see.

[@MladenMijatov]

Well it goes like this. Break pads fail after 6th hour. And after 20 break pads you need to change your wheels (maybe).

[@insanegixxerdude486]

only issue i see with the methodology of this test is there is no simulation of wind going over the surface of the wheels. In real world testing this would be a factor and air rushing over the surface area would allow for added dissipation of heat. Delaying failure possibly to later on or maybe not at all?

[@kidsafe]

Looks like the new braking surface is slightly less "effective" by up to 1mph in these tests. Not sure what that signifies in real world scenarios. Clearly catastrophic failure is a worse end result than slightly less powerful braking.

[@ArashFallah]

Tell that to a person who is racing and trying to stop at a hairpin! I'll take earlier catastrophic failure for more than 1 mph everyday. Nobody is going to be holding a brake lever for 300 seconds anyway! Also real world scenario would have better cooling, since it's not going to be dependent just on ambient temperature, but also the airflow as well.

[@kidsafe]

That person only needs to squeeze a tiny bit harder. 7lbs of brake force is not anywhere close to max hand strength.

[@GeorgeRon]

The test is an accelerated test to destruction, used in many industries, so I don't find any issues there. Another third party should be able to take the same protocol and replicate the findings, that should close the loop. What would be interesting to know is how you draw a relationship between accelerated testing and real world application. What does constant braking for X number of minutes generating Y watts of heat rate relate to intermittent feathering of brakes with airflow passing through the braking gap? This has to be established before you pass on the $$ of this resin over to the consumer.

[@CycoWarriorx]

Ron George 👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽

[@cyclingwithalex3553]

Nice review of the wheels

[@BurnDuration]

Not a valid test. A load cell for force measurement should have been used to quantify tangential brake force at the rim. The target brake force (F=mu*N) should have been held the same, where the friction coefficient and normal load will vary. Also wheel speed should have also been held constant.

[@fieldlab4]

If you metered the electrical power going in and held the wheel at a constant rpm the tests would be more meaningful. That would also indicate braking power, and would probably indicate Alto would be useless for stopping. The other variable is that high friction rims would transfer heat faster into the tire, causing *greater* pressure spike. I suspect these failures are a combination of rim softening and excessive tire pressure. An internal pressure gauge and limiter might be a useful addition to the test. In fact pressure limiters (blow off valve) might be useful on road bikes. Put a whistle on the valve and you could get a little warning to back off on that descent.

[@hennievn]

I'm no expert, but it appears as if the test only proves that the Alto rim is less efficient in braking performance (see higher speed and lower temperature for same motor input). I would like to see the test with variable braking input to control the speed to a set value. That would likely induce similar temperature and subsequent failure in the Alto wheel.

[@rkan2]

Yeah, Agreed!

[@JimHigson]

exactly. Wouldn't a rim with no friction at all pass these tests better than any other? Like, if you coated the rim in oil?

[@altocycling866]

Altering the energy input to the rim would skew the results, unfortunately. However, if you view Phase 2 of our rim you can see that it is running slower due to the 9 pound input, and it runs for 20 minutes. There is no scenario where our rim will fail due to braking stress. We also found that the speed of the wheel increased throughout the test as the pad started to gloss over from heat. This phenomenon would be present on all other tests if they were to reach this point, but the rims reached a failure point before this could occur.

[@ferrarista27]

Your test is flawed because you did not use the recommended brake pads for the other wheelsets. Some maufacturers voids the warranty if you use any other pads not recommended. Would have been more realistic test to see at what point the others would fail with their pads.

[@punkandprovocation]

That would skew the test too due to differing inputs. Many, not all, manufacturers recommend specific pads so they can sell you pads as well as rims.

[@fw_uke_ha]

Interesting test. Can you make a conclusion to a real life scenario please? How much weight does a rider has to have to produce a similar braking force at which speed? My weight is pretty high (110kg at 182cm) and I ride one of the contestants which failed pretty early. I am really concerned now riding these in the alps!

[@altocycling866]

Absolutely, Frank, I'm happy to share the calculation! For a 140kg rider descending a 12% grade at 50km/hr: Fb (brake force) = Fg (net gravitational force) = (m)(g)sin(theta) at constant speed. For a 12% gradient (7 degrees) and 140kg rider, this is 167.38 N. At 50km/hr, Power = Fv = (167.38N)(13.89 m/s) = 2324.9 Watts (1162.5 watts per rim). This does not take wind resistance into account. We have an unlimited rider weight, 5 year warranty, and allowable use of any brake pad. So our test is very strenuous, but it is because we make very big promises to our customers that we must stand behind.

[@jaco-bb7bl]

This is an experiment that has been a lot of trouble! Even so, you don't have to go all the way to make an enemy of the other company. I know it's a great wheel, but it feels like a prolider that there's no need to destroy another company wheel.

[@404nobrakes]

Was the motor really consuming 1200W the whole time? There basically 0 brake fade in any of the tests, and the speed of the wheels never exceeded ~20mph even when brake temps reach 300F. I use black prince pads, and once they heat up, 7lbs of lever force is gonna do jack. 1200W should make the wheel go much, much faster than 20mph, if you account for the fact that there is no rider, no rolling resistance, and no air resistance. Either something is off, or I'm missing something.

[@rickmancini772]

Do you manufacture or source the rims?

[@maxgrass8134]

Not a good Test. Consistant lever force is not consistant brake force.

[@andygreen6096]

Spot on - running to a motor torque (= braking torque) setpoint along with wheel speed would be much better for comparison. This would would leave braking force as the control parameter, a read out of this could be used to infer effectiveness of braking surfaces...

[@AlexeiPavlov]

Anyone know a website where you can calculate descent length based on your weight until carbon rim blows up?

[@altocycling866]

We can show you how to calculate it! Alto offers unlimited rider weight, a 5 year warranty, and the allowable use of any carbon brake pad. We are the only brand in the world to offer this combination, and it means that we have to test to very extreme scenarios. If a 140kg rider decides to descend Mt. Ventoux and only use his rear brake, we have to ensure that he is safe. That calculation would look something like this: For a 140kg rider descending a 12% grade at 50km/hr: Fb (brake force) = Fg (net gravitational force) = (m)(g)sin(theta) at constant speed. For a 12% gradient (7 degrees) and 140kg rider, this is 167.38 N. At 50km/hr, Power = Fv = (167.38N)(13.89 m/s) = 2324.9 Watts (1162.5 watts per rim). This does not take wind resistance into account, but if you consider any factor of safety then you can see why survival at 1200W is necessary for us at Alto.

[@ArjenvanHassent]

I guess Bike Fit Advisor can help you with that kzbin.info/door/r43Lgwqryq_QM00L1xJb4A

[@marcost847]

I love Zipp Wheel! Very nice video! Thank you !!!👍

[@kkostovas]

I do not see any mechanism to replicate cooling from the wind on the rim and blakepads. Would that have any effect on the temperature and thus making the test more acurate?

[@briannystrom4767]

Of course it would and not having wind comparable to the road speed blowing over the rims is arguably the biggest flaw in this test. Without it, we'll never know if any of the rims would actually reach their critical temperature or not in the real world. Considering the apparent rarity of heat-related failures during actual riding, I suspect that they may not.

[@sparkwheelworks8150]

Wind cooling isn't an added constant but keep in mind the ambient temp was 76 degrees. What if we had added cooling fans to each side of the rim but increased ambient temp to 95 degrees (there's plenty of places throughout the globe that riders are currently riding in such temps)? It'd be interesting to see if the increased 20 degree ambient temp would override any forced cooling effects and actually decrease time to failure on the rims involved. Also, keep in mind that this test exacerbates what typically occurs, which is overcooking the rim and causing structural deformation of the rim (widening at a specific section of the brake track). This is super common and most riders don't even realize it's happen. In our opinion, once this happens, your rim is just a ticking time bomb.

[@briannystrom4767]

There's a relatively simple and inexpensive way to get at least some baseline data on the effect of wind. Your rim didn't fail, so why not repeat the test with it under different wind speeds and measure the rim temps? A handheld anemometer is inexpensive and fans are cheap too. Your only other costs would be for brake pads and your time.

[@brucewayne3141]

No. Makority of those over heating fails are from long decending rides. You go much faster while descending so any cooling from wind is surpassed by higher speed.

[@gtvts16]

Altoはブレーキが効かないって事ですか？

[@브빵]

mavic and 404,etc that's almost tire fail how we know alto cycling 's employee spray WD-40 on alto wheel

[@antondubas9368]

unreal 0F-280F-180FFFFFFuck! Fantastik!

[@dandurlle9339]

does your rim made in China？ i have one pair buy from oxivecarbon for two year，still work

[@samvelamamjian5260]

Почему ? Нет в этом тесте, Кампаньоло.

[@thijsvandenbroek5333]

Can you test corima wheels?

[@pokerchannel6991]

Hi. Wold I b a crazed idiot animal if I were to try carbon paste on the carbon rim for gd braking? On the rim brakes for carbon. Thx

[@n0zuae]

Yes you would , carbon paste increases fraction and reduces movment of parts that are CLAMPED together , if the are not clamped then it would just work as (sanding / polishing )paste and will destroy your rims.

[@AstroSquid]

so there should be wind blowing on the wheel, to better simulate real world.

[@ericclark2674]

as others have seen, and pointed out, the Alto performance is...misleading. It survives, most likely, because the surface glazes and reduces the friction available to stop you. Completely unreliable breaking surface from what we can see in this test. Once that surface is compromised, it will stay that way until you sand it down - basically every time you ride the bike I suspect.... All of the other wheels seemed to run in similar speeds with the 7 pound weight, so I'd make my choice from those that lasted the longest (not including the Alto) and had predictable and survivable failures.

[@zedgee4514]

alto temp drops the longer they run , this is bull

[@ronaldputra1177]

how about long descent? at mid day?

[@Mixalot140]

The higher resistance to heat makes it more brittle. If it doesn’t break in the heat, pot hole will kill it easily.

[@popitn2nd]

damn Roval was the worst result. but yet those wheel sets are most sold today.

[@laod7192]

Zipp is amazingly strong.

[@dcwicqjf]

Each rim has it own friction coefficient. It's very strange that speed rotation is the same for each rim. I suppose that power is adapted to have same speed for each rim.

[@valenleo98]

WOW Roval wheel totally ..... damage

[@batbawls]

Unrelated to this test, what spokes are used on your CC40?

[@altocycling866]

We use Sapim CX-Ray spokes on every wheel in our product line. Thanks John!

[@razorree]

260*F ? WTF is that? is it a lot? or just a little ?

[@beaver7847]

137°C... You shouldn't touch a rim that hot. :)

[@joshrichards3791]

70 degrees is room temperature

[@baidyabiswas4182]

Not worth of this test coz nobody going to apply breaks more than 10 sec Should do some load n jerk test with minimum spokes 16 nos test

[@QuailFat]

The music ruined the video. I wanted to hear the whirring sounds of the pads against the various brake tracks, instead we get to enjoy crap music..

[@bikedawg]

i muted the video

[@MohanLal-pp1qq]

I thought this is completely fool experiment because both sides of break hitting to wheel so that it's naturally blasting 😅😅😅😆😆

[@itumononanashi]

参考にはなるよないつか壊れる時にどの様に壊れるのか分かるし 余りにもひどい壊れ方したメーカー合って恐ろしいよな…山登るならリムはやっぱ怖いかな

[@TheAntoine191]

All rims are made from material with about the same specific caloric properties. So if a wheel is cooler (like Altos) then it dissipated less energy so braking for a given force must have been poorer. Not excatcly a good show. Measure and give us the braking force for all wheel it will be a bit more relevant.

[@altocycling866]

Antoine, the amount of energy into each rim is identical in this test. Total energy equates to motor power, caliper force, pad selection, and rim kinetic energy. The Alto wheel runs cooler because of the resin additives that allow it to conduct and dissipate heat at a faster rate. I hope that this helps to clear things up!

[@TheAntoine191]

Alto Cycling maybe maybe not. If the drag coefficient is lower for the same caliper force the braking force and energy will be lower.

[@altocycling866]

There is no "maybe" when it comes to the first law of thermodynamics.

[@nishieda]

You brake HARDEST (2.lb more) but COULD NOT slow down to sub- 20mph! your wheels gonna kill me!

[@altocycling866]

The Alto rim ran at 19.3mph in phase 2 prior to pad glazing, which means they had more friction force than any other rim but still managed to run for 20 minutes at lower temperatures.

[@leedorney]

Carbon rims where never made for clinchers ! It's an obvious failure waiting to happen. Get discs with them instead or better still get Tubs ! Or stick with alu-wheels 👍

[@txm100]

You mean caliper brakes.

[@northman77]

yes! yes. no. no.

[@navarrouk3487]

If you are using for descents forget it!

[@charlesm7646]

Wanted to watch this but couldn’t endure the horrible music

[@grmsek]

The point is: Sell your beautiful zipp's, mavic, enve, vision and buy alto 😂

[@mariocruz585]

😍😍😍😍😍💪💪💪💪😎

[@mejartomlinson7065]

wtf Royal

[@itumononanashi]

現実とは違うってメーカーいうけど このメーカーだめじゃんっていう吹っ飛び具合がやばい ブレーキ掛けすぎて割れるってよくいうけど roval CLX 50とかやばい破裂の仕方でしょ💦 下りじゃ落車確実で大けが間違いなしじゃん 車のレースしてる人とか経験ある人はブレーキロックだけは気をつけて ブレーキは必ず放して自然と冷却されるけど でも実際車とかでもセンス無い人って必ずいるし現実あるんじゃないかな 前にブログの記事でアマゾン販売でも売られてるスフィーダーのホイール 破裂して落車してケガしたって自転車屋の記事みたけど 恐ろしいもんだよなーしかもけがしてるのに自転車屋は自分のとこで 下り苦手な人だからブレーキ掛けすぎて破裂したんだろうって 勝手に結論つけてお客さんにはそれですましたみたいだけど 現実には破裂してもけがしてもメーカーには自転車屋でクレーム止まってるんじゃないかな 熱で壊れるってのが常識的なようだけど 絶対おかしいと思う… なぜならプロは速くて冷却して熱で壊れないとかいうけど 全然ブレーキの当てのレベル違うし熱はアマチュアより全然掛かってると思う ほんとは各メーカークリンチャーでの実験あんましてないんじゃないか？？ ３Tのカーボンホイール持ってるけど ブレーキ面はホント薄いもんな…あれじゃー破裂するよ 素材的にも耐久性なさそうだし この実験はSSDの耐久テストみたいなもんで あてにならんけど（壊れ方は見れてよかった） ほんとに壊れるんだっていう物を見る感じで参考にはなる メーカーは真摯に受け止めて ちゃんとしたホイール作ってくれーあと価格的に買えるやつをｗ でもAlto の壊れないんです～ってのはすんげー怪しいなーｗ まだまだカーボンホイールはレベル低いってことだな！

[@ArjenvanHassent]

Google Translate... Reality and is probably the way of roval CLX 50 Toka dangerous rupture but the degree blown off Tteyuu Jan bad this manufacturer says well I break too much over dangerous brake I say manufacturers me different 💦 down'm 落車 ensure a car Thats a big injury doubt People who are racing and experienced people are only careful with brake locks and the brakes are always released and naturally cooled but even though they are real cars or anything they do not have any sense and there is always a reality before it is a blog since Jitenshaya to the article are injured Moreover Na'm terrible mon I saw articles of bicycle shop I was injured and 落車 to wheel rupture of the scan feeder, which is sold also in the Amazon sold in're down not good people in their own Toko It seems like it was to the customer that I concluded without permission that it would have burst by bursting too much Even if it bursts or even hurts, the manufacturer is stopping the claim at the bicycle shop. It seems to be common sense though it is broken by heat, but it is absolutely funny ... because the professional is fast and it can not be broken with heat I think we can really think to totally different level of applied brake heat is to be at all hanging from the amateur does not massage experiments in each manufacturer Clincher I or something? What? Brake surface I have 3T carbon wheel of truth's thin mon Do not ... there jar material specific to the durability is unlikely even by the rupture to this experiment I do not count on massaging like a durability test of the SSD (broken how is see was good) manufacturers to become the reference feeling to see the really Tteyuu I break things very seriously and decent wheel made clay after price to buy the guy from me - I do not break the Alto even w and is live Wow doubtful w The carbon wheels are still low level!

[@TheRadicalpl]

this test idea is insane. Manufactors connot use their own pads Why? Campy will win this comparison without any issue but with original red campy pads Bullshit i will never buy alto wheels rims whatever

[@outerstellar7186]

And one more example of legendary specialized, roval quality. LMAO

[@perwiratempur]

Omg Roval users should buy better insurance or swap to Mavic

[@navarrouk3487]

You need a good dentist!

[@86virtu]

This test set-up is complete nonsence. It is obvious that when wheels heat up, they start to oscilate. This transfers to the whole test installation (what was the man making it was thinking?), therefore the weight applied to the brake lever. Momental forces when the weight oscilates are not 7lbs! And it is basic physics. It is like jumping on ice when it doesn't break when you walk stadily - yes, it eventually breaks. And these wheels are not designed for that.

[@CycoWarriorx]

Desislav Manolov likewise. I’m not clear on what this test is supposed to prove... all tires and wheels, even alloy wheels have a failure point. 🤷🏽‍♂️

[@samvelamamjian5260]

Campagnolo?😂

[@TimmiMontreal]

hey geniuses, what are you doing about the carbon-fibre dust in your work environment? #mesothelioma ... facebook.com/groups/BikeScience/permalink/10154793306770915/ ...and who brakes for 5 minutes anyways?

[@odnerolftiptip5062]

Fake test

[@Urgento22]

Why are companies focusing on rim brakes? The future is disc brakes. Rim brakes are like having drum brakes on a car. You wouldn't buy a new car today with drum brakes when your safety is on the line. Rim brakes are just dumb!

[@altocycling866]

Check out our CCX lineup - the most advanced high pressure hookless disc brake wheels in the world!

[@briannystrom4767]

Perhaps because the vast majority of road bikes in the world are equipped rim brakes and they're not going away anytime soon. While I love disc brakes for all riding involving dirt, mud or snow/ice, I don't see any major advantage to discs for the type of road riding I do (non-competitive, generally fair weather). I'm certainly not going to scrap perfectly good framesets in order to switch to disc brakes.

[@choddo]

Disc brakes on road bikes are an abomination

[@robertborchert932]

Hehe, disc brakes won years ago for their simplicity and cost, but few understand what drums are capable of. The rim brake works in bicycle racing for its inherent simplicity and very forgiving precision. Bicycle discs are small and centralize plenty of heat.

[@murcielago188]

But they are ugly