“How Ivy League Admissions Broke America:” David Brooks Explains | Amanpour and Company

[@janjasiewicz9851]

How about making education affordable? , how about making trade schools and community colleges affordable? How about states deciding to return to the time when they thought that making education is an investment rather than an expense. How about deciding that higher education should not be a business and making profits?

[@Tamar-sz8ox]

Great Bernie Sanders talking points

[@yamerojones]

@@Tamar-sz8ox No, Trump talking points, his new online accreditation program is thinking outside the box, Bernie is always inside the box.

[@csf1757]

Resident of TN here. A couple of years ago our governor took the profit from the lottery and funded community colleges and trade schools completely. They are free for residents. College is not necessary for a successful society but education to at least the level of a trade is.

[@Tommyanddiesel]

GOP haven’t wanted all the time

[@barryepstein2816]

@@janjasiewicz9851 YES!!!

[@kal2487]

I was a gifted student and have several advanced degrees. I've met people from all social strata and I haven't seen much correlation between intelligence and degrees. The mark of intelligence is adapting to your own environment and having the ability to learn. We all grow up in different environments and learn different lessons that may or may not correlate with college.

[@bullonu]

What made you gifted?

[@kal2487]

@@bullonu IQ scores

[@ghenefer]

@@bullonuTesting. Elite students are designated early in high school and are coached. I was from a middle class family but I was smart and I feel fortunate to have experienced so many opportunities. This was over 50 years ago. I’ve had a wonderful career in business and Technology. I understand how this has affected my children and grandchildren. We’re very involved in our communities and we are multi-cultural. Any discussion of mass deportations is abhorrent. I will never understand Trump supporters. I have low expectations for the next four years… but it’s not over.😊

[@lolonnie]

That's one type of intelligence, but there are many kinds. Adaptability is the mark of...adaptability.

[@darkboard5556]

​​​@@ghenefer you were coached and the rest were not but what if everyone was coached the same?

[@Benjamin-David]

I can remember knowing when I was in junior high that I was not college material. I gave up in school. Luckily I found an apprenticeship program got married and have two wonderful kids. Without my union apprenticeship my kids would never have been.

[@barryepstein2816]

That is truly awesome. Unfortunately the USA does not have such extensive quality apprentice programs as a country such as Germany. But I don't blame the educated elites, I blame the 1% ers and above who fight any expenditures that benefit the public good. All they support are tax cuts for themselves.

[@seensay2132]

Great outcomes but you also shouldn’t have sold yourself short in junior high. I was a straight A student and college tracked back then. My best friend a C- student on his BEST day with little drive and poor study habits. Now, guess which one of us is a High School Principal with an advanced degree and the same happy family you have?

[@russellhammond371]

Glad to hear you found your way. Being a STEM major I had little choice but to go the college route, but once I was done with it, I was very happy to get out of the bureaucracy. Instead of getting nit-picked by professors who didn't like you for not being academically perfect (some were nice), I now have a wonderful lab career that has rewarded me for my hard work, versatility, and attention to detail. At the end of the day, most of us just want to get to work and provide for our families, college-educated or not.

[@ec5318]

I’ve read studies that kids project their future from junior high. Not everyone knows what they are destined for (great for your school principal friend) but kids starting from even as early as junior high dream their future paths (maybe not all but many do) and it’s not to say you could have done better or cut yourself short but for good or bad, junior high is definitely an age where one can already set their path for the future.. very important implications for educators and parents who can influence starting from a young age.

[@janeenlewis6238]

Please read US Catholic News article with reporting by Gareth Gore. Opus Dei has been here for 50 years infiltrating our politics, courts, and infiltrating society through front groups, or non-profits. Ever wonder why the breakdown of church and state and reversal of rights are happening?...

[@slumerville]

It is laughable to claim the current ivy admission policy is meritocracy.

[@user-cw3bo6vw3n]

It just shows how uneducated the educated are.

[@Leila-sd1sl]

Yeah, he didn’t mentioned getting rid of legacy quota. He must went to an ivy school via legacy admission

[@indyatmn420]

Well it’s certainly not meritocratic if you’re black or Latino. Lots of affirmative action and DEI points there. For Asians and poor whites, it sure as hell is.

[@indyatmn420]

@@Leila-sd1slor getting rid of affirmative action and DEI policies - let’s not forget that bs.

[@indyatmn420]

Well it’s certainly not meritocratic if you’re black or Latino. But if you’re Asian or a poor or middle class white it sure as hell is.

[@gregmacgowan6614]

An ex-girlfriend who teaches at a fairly elite university once told me that many of her students weren't necessarily great students but that their parents could afford to hire private tutors or send their kids to test taking classes, enrichment programs, unpaid internships, etc. Meanwhile, the scholarship kids had to work twice as hard because they had to work after school and/or on weekends and didn't have the free time to study or the money (and time) for tutors, etc.

[@deme9873]

My wife had to work three times as hard only to end up tutoring the most venal and disinterested sorts from the most questionably privileged families on the side.

[@billzander2875]

Yup, I work at a fine international school. I've had kids go to great univeristies who, in a perfect meritocracy, would've been hairdressers (and that would've been OK). They definitely took the seats of more deserving kids who couldn't pay full tuition.

[@ianollmann9393]

It's true, but my great grandmother used to say that some people just shine and the muck will never stick to them. Others, can't get away from it. It would be nice if they didn't have to work twice as hard. That would be fair. However, it isn't making them worse people, but better, and if they can do all that, I am sure they have a bright future ahead.

[@gigiforest9362]

@@gregmacgowan6614 also, their parents weren’t able to help with the studies.

[@peterpicard4028]

Wait, you're building your whole educational POV based on the opinion of an ex-girlfriend at an unnamed, so-called "fairly elite" university? Powerful stuff, Dude!

[@frankBrown-u3c]

YES YES YES. I am 76 and my high school ranking was 369 out of 400. No degree because somehow I just couldn't pass Spanish I. I became a mechanic, cabinet maker, home builder, now an environmental contractor trying to repair mother nature. Regardless my education I have developed a unique business that is one of a kind. Proud, successful, and a member. of a great community. Thank you David for repeating the exact thoughts I have about our educational system. Every child has gifts that should be developed but are overlooked due to our emphasis on STEM education. I would. gladly walk into any school and tell my journey .

[@mangos2888]

No, sir, you don't get to a rank of 369/400 by just failing spanish. Not 60 years ago and not today. 😂😂

[@granitfog]

And how does "overlooked due to our emphasis on STEM education" translate into voting for a President that is a habitual lier, a convicted rapist, a crooked business man, who drove many subcontractors into bankrupsy because he would keep to their contracts and pay their bills, who wants to undo medicare and social security, wants to put women in prison for getting an abortion, wants to raise the cost of goods by putting on tarrifs, more, who sells his suit, bibles made in china, watch special coins and more to make money despite being "a billionair." - 20 years ago you could not make this believeable that such a person would get over 70 million votes to be president

[@danjohnson9821]

@@mangos2888 he didn't get a degree because he didn't pass Spanish. Probably not enough credits.

[@anglophils645]

@@mangos2888I'm 68, and my high school in NC had passing two years of a foreign language as an absolute requirement for being graduated. Standards may be lower now, but graduation requirements used to be quite stringent.

[@mangos2888]

@anglophils645 as someone with high schoolers, that is still a requirement.

[@radioguy8662]

This obsession with debating over who gets into elite schools is ridiculous! There are millions of highly successful people who never attended an elite school.

[@olgriffin8083]

They are .not the ones represented disproportionately in the halls of power from the Supreme Court on down. Check it out.

[@CrabbyE8]

So true. This sounds like a massive oversimplification to suggest it’s about Ivy League schools. But there is a divide along education and class, but can’t you argue that it’s always been that way?

[@daveg9000]

Amen!

[@tyronebrown9936]

The six presidents since 1989 (Bush1, Clinton, Bush2, Obama, Trump, Biden) have graduated from Yale College, Georgetown, Yale Law, Yale College, Harvard Business School, Columbia College, Harvard Law School, The University of Pennsylvania, The University of Delaware and Syracuse University Law School. That's seven Ivy degrees (three of them graduate degrees) across 5 of the 6 presidents (83%). Still think the Ivy League doesn't have a stranglehold or should I go back further in our history?

[@Hemingway-dq4fx]

Sure, but the press, political, and corporate leadership are completely dominated by these elite institutions. In other words, almost every major decision that affect us all are made by people largely from a small group of academic institutions. That's a problem and has been for a long time.

[@eamonnca1]

The physical structure of suburbia is a big problem. People drive home from work, pick up kids on the way, and drive into a garage where they shut the door behind them and spend the evening in their private home and garden. Any shared neighborhood spaces are inaccessible on foot, so kids rely on exhausted parents to chauffeur them to organized sporting activities instead of being allowed to walk or cycle to the park. Very hard to build community in that atomized setting.

[@sibsibs83]

very insightful 👏 how can we change the architecture of our communities to reflect a healthy way of life?

[@eamonnca1]

@ zoning reform. Phase out single-use zoning to allow corner stores in residential neighborhoods again. Large numbers of small parks peppered throughout neighborhoods instead of one big one with a large parking lot attached. Mixed-use developments and complete streets that allow people to walk and bike in safety to nearby amenities

[@deme9873]

It's also hard to "build community" with the atomized mentality of those suburban parents and children of mention.

[@larrylewicki4053]

I noticed this effect when I was lucky to visit Europe in 1973. People out in at night… whereas in 1973 the south side of Chicago wasn’t conducive to safe socializing. I chalked it up to Europeans relying on mass transit and walking. They didn’t give up on safety. In the U.S. we retreated in our cars- isolated from people.

[@EdwardLindon]

​@@sibsibs83Live in cities.

[@travistatman]

As an 8th grader I was told I was too immature for an honors program, despite having straight As. As a high school student in 2003 I was told I wasn’t college material. I fought like hell to get into a good school-largely though sports-and graduated. 15 years later got a graduate degree from an Ivy. But what has always carried me in life is persistence and good social skills, as Brooks points out.

[@davidmeermans1579]

Don't forget the Ivy League MBAs that have been destroying businesses ever since Milton Friedman said that the primary function of corporations is to increase shareholder value. Essentially, never mind the people (employees) creating the actual value. Now, having visited this pestilence on the core industries we need for well paying jobs, the skills necessary to rebuild them are dying off and we aren't funding schools to rebuild the skills. I fear the US is in a decline that will make recovery extremely difficult or impossible.

[@ianollmann9393]

I feel the right solution to this is labor involvement in the board room. This can be accomplished by giving labor the proxy rights from private equity and index funds. Those two sets of investors are so removed from their investment decision that they can not be providing any sensible corporate governance input. The employees at least know what is going on, how the company makes money and how to improve things, and can provide educated feedback without worrying about what is a SEC public statement and what is not. They are needed to provide a bit of reality for top management, who are often trying to "please" an imaginary investor who doesn't exist while lining their own pockets. They will also do a good job in representing the needs of the local community because they also live there. That they are excluded from decision making is a lot of what is wrong with American Capitalism.

[@nuqwestr]

Milton Friedman never attended an Ivy League school and only taught for a short-time at Columbia. He's associated with the Chicago School, not the Ivy League.

[@unclesamowitz9922]

David Brooksowitz knows exactly what group broke Ivy League admissions.

[@joyfulmindstudio]

Hari Srinivasan asked David Brooks the right question: How does the growth of an educated class lead to the political divide that Trump’s election represents? The answer is: It doesn’t. The so-called meritocracy is in reality an educated oligopoly. Wealth is the distorting factor that determines who goes, not to college necessarily, but to “the best colleges.” Brooks returns again and again to elitism in college enrollment, but misses the most obvious driver of that elitism: money. Ivy League colleges are only a small slice of the total US higher education system. Yet Ivy League grads are grossly over-represented in leadership positions in business and government. The rich go to the schools that only the rich can afford; they form the relationships that open doors for them throughout their careers. They run everything. Brooks tries-hard-to think outside of his own box, the box of his own making. But he’s so obsessed with what’s outside that box that he doesn’t see what’s inside it, right there, under his nose. As a result, he’s prone to making sweeping pronouncements calling for change of an improbable variety-a variety that only he and his fellow box-mates will consider sane. Brooks says we must “redefine achievement,” whatever that means. No we don’t. We need to redefine what is required for anyone in this society to compete for a seat in one of the best schools. What should not be required? In a word, money. Money should not be the limiting factor that keeps a child from growing and developing in grade and high school into the kind of thoughtful, versatile young man or woman who can get into a good college and do very well there. That means funding public education to levels where it can compete successfully against the private day schools and academies where the elite send their children to begin their lives as members of the oligopoly. It also means making it possible for any high school grad to go to any college for which they are qualified. Those solutions are measurable, traceable, and doable-if Republicans, of the new and old variety both, would agree to it. But-ah-there’s the rub, the plank in Brooks’ eye. He doesn’t think of the problem he’s discussing as a problem first and foremost of economic inequality. He only sees that in the outcomes our current education system produces. It should be no surprise, though, that a fundamentally inequitable, two-tier education system produces fundamentally inequitable results. And there’s plenty of proof that a fully equitable public education funding system produces equitable, meritocratic results. All we have to do is consult our NATO allies and see how they do it. I love David Brooks’ sincerity, but I strongly question his seriousness. If he is so blind to the economic facts of life that distinguish the troubled US education system compared to those in our allied European countries, it’s because he didn’t do his research. Or he did his research, and decided that what works elsewhere can’t work here. And why? Because of money. Brooks may want to look and think outside of the box, but in truth, he likes the box. It’s warm and cosy in there. Too warm, to my thinking. So warm that it causes him and his fellow elitists to drop off into sleep, just as they are getting to the hard part. The answers David Brooks desires are inside his own box. He should punch some hole in the walls of that box, and let some fresh air in. Then he might just stay awake long enough to see what’s right in front of his nose.

[@steve19811]

The weird thing is to see people with money and Ivy League degrees act like victims and encourage the victimization of others.

[@missypooh1109]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this conversation is sheer insanity. I too love David Brooks but he's missing the mark on this one.

[@VanessaJohnson-g7f]

This interview was surreal, I kept waiting for them to state the obvious: money determines the quality of education you get, even in tuition-free public schools. Upper income neighborhoods have well-resourced, stable, high acheiving schools. Just check the average price for a house in the top 5 public school districts and it's obvious. I think people like Brooks can't see this - if you're a fish, you don't really have the perspective to really notice and measure the ocean you've been swimming in.

[@VanessaJohnson-g7f]

In my state, if you are 16-20 and have a hs diploma or GED, community colleges do not charge any tuition. There are advisors specifically set up to help students transfer to 4-year state colleges. As a tutor, each year I try hard to get parents to look beyond the Ivies and private schools. They are all convinced their child needs to go to a "good" college and hang out with the billionaires of the future. In reality, the rich kids don't socialize with the middle class kids or the first-generation college students. People from working class backgrounds who successfully use the Ivy League to springboard into the wealthy set, like Clinton, Vance and Buttigieg, are very rare.

[@andrewoconnor7850]

I don't buy this. The vote was 2.6 difference. College educated folks voted for Trump and voted for Harris. Non-college educated folks voted for Trump & Harris. This slur abt this divide is the same dog and pony show the Media dragged out the last time Trump won. It was close. Get over it. Stop stirring up BS to write articles or be on TV. Cope with your grief or surprise or joy or what have you but stop trying to add more layers to what happened. Spin Media spin!!

[@ianchandley]

I attended RIT in the late 1980’s to 90’s and met a woman working in the international students office. She had transferred from Harvard to Cornell to study microbiology and chemistry. She left Harvard because “It was not a serious school….it was pleasure oriented…. The hardest thing about Harvard was getting in.”

[@donaldseekins6516]

Cornell alumnus here . . . Fraternities at Cornell make Cornell very "pleasure oriented."

[@russellhammond371]

@@donaldseekins6516 Every college has its party scene. I'm sure they weren't talking about that.

[@russellhammond371]

Unrelated to ivy league schools, but I went to some Christian university called Southeastern in Florida out of high school (due to a guidance counselor who was guess what, another Christian). I left after a year because it was a complete joke. Not even kidding, psychology 101 was the "professor" standing in front of students reading the questions and answers of tests VERBATIM to the class the day before every exam. My friends and I just took turns typing the info and emailing it to each other so we did even less work.

[@buzoff4642]

@@russellhammond371 I attended two colleges, left the first swiftly, as it was too easy, and had nothing to do with party scenes. I've also taken courses at Boston University, which I'd also classify as "not a serious school", also not for party reasons. Many a coworker of mine relocated to schools "rumored to be easy As", where their kids did get the (easy) As, and went on to Ivy League. And their kids tutored through their easy A schools, continue in the workforce, to ring people for instruction, and to avoid market competition, by only interacting with Ivy League.

[@istt7114]

I hear this over and over. I grew up in California and this is what was said about Stanford. You couldn't flunk out once admitted.

[@wpl8275]

What Broke America? Stupidity. Inanity. Oh, are those words too highfalootin? Ivy League schools had nothing to do with our current situation. Here are some facts I gathered from various sources: 1. Job growth under US presidents since 1924. Democrat presidents = 101 million. Republican presidents = 28 million. Since 1989 it's democrat presidents 50 million and republican presidents 1 million. 2. Since 1933 democrat presidents have a 4.6% GDP average. Republican presidents have a 2.4% GDP average. Brooks and all the republicans hate Jimmy Carter and call him a loser. They say he left economic malaise behind for poor Ronald Reagan to deal with. BS. Carter had 10.3 million in job growth. He averaged more job growth per year than any republican president ever in US history. His GDP growth average was 3.25% even with a last year recession in 1980. And he left to Reagan a 79 billion dollar deficit. 3. Every single republican president since 1924 has had a recession during their time in office. Every single one. 4. Every single republican president since 1981 has increased their inherited deficit while every single democrat president since then has decreased their inherited deficit. What is breaking America is that the voters refused to recognize reality and based their votes on feelings about the economy even though if you look outside your window and the busy activity going on and everything else while knowing we've averaged over 3% GDP growth under Biden then you know these "feelings" are wrong. New cars. Higher paying jobs. 401k increases. Home values increased. People who voted for Trump all had these things. They don't get an excuse for voting for him based on their beliefs about the economy. I'm fed up completely with the stupidity and inanity, the vapidity of this country. We stopped taking government seriously. We stopped expecting real results and began denying real results. Not one thing at all to do with Ivy League schools.

[@hojichaisfarsuperiortochai9309]

💯 correct. Thank you.

[@NameName-yc7kv]

Excellent analysis 👏 well said!! 100% spot on. What uninformed voters did not know is that behind the curtain is OZ aka tech-billionaire oligarchs and their super Pacs pet projects which are ofcourse also billionaire funded, and those are the forces stacking Courts to uphold rights for corporations unlimited money in elections, where the actual voice of working ppl majority is drowned out...We The People are no longer heard, we are not a priority, dead thing Corporations have more rights than the living. It's become beyond dangerous because oligarchs spew disinfo and use the discontented against the very few good pols who have been fighting to get oligarchal corruption exposed and thrown out. This time around it was super charged and the oligarchs won, their vitriol against awareness says it all ie ppl who are asleep/not woke, are easier to take advantage of full throttle: division, picking on the helpless, verbal abuse, xenophobia, infotainment as actual news...distracts from a very real danger that these oligarchs have zero intention of caring for the countries people- no they don't care one bit, they want absolute power to abuse at will and have achieved it. Will people who didn't realize it before, realize it when it's too late? Will it even matter at that point...will it turn around into an infinite backlash...one thing is for sure, oligarchal class 1%erst cannot be trusted with the public good. If they wanted to pay off the deficit they created by not paying their fair share they could have but they won't and never will. Oligarchs think proj 2025 is a plan for leadership but it's not, it's a dictatorship dictating to a free people who were not consulted or got to vote on it...there's maybe 1 small item in the whole thing that is agreeable. The rest no one asked for, we don't want micromanaged lives. Perhaps voters dont realize oligarchs wealth is like bricks in a wall, one by one carried off and suddwnly village is in shambles ,that's historically what always happens anyway.

[@deme9873]

I couldn't agree more. Yet, Ivy Leaguers all went steadfastly into law, finance, and journalism. None of them built anything while scoffing at and scorning those who do. It's the unwashed masses who actually built anything only to end up voting Republican.

[@EdwardLindon]

👍🏾

[@ianollmann9393]

The criticism is that the elites (democrats) have abandoned the working class to a long slow death at the hands of globalism. This is pretty indisputable, starting with Clinton -- NAFTA, "end of welfare as we know it" -- through the fatally flawed and cynical ACA, failure to increase the minimum wage for 30 years, sink or swim childcare, flatline wages despite ever increasing productivity, tolerating shareholder primacy, etc. etc. etc. If the Democrats started to care again, and fixed some of this stuff, which by now is pretty low hanging fruit, a lot of the anger would fade because the working class would not feel so left behind. I expect that in 20 years, AI/robotics will force everyone's hand and the government will face social unrest unless it provides UBI and healthcare for all. It will also have to find a way to tax robot income or nationalize AI workpower, an outcome we can be sure the investors in OpenAI and the like are not anticipating and will not support. It will be United States v. 1% for all the marbles. May the best man win! So yes MAGA is divorced from reality and voting for nonsense. I'm sure that even they realize the Republicans can not hold their nose long enough to help them. They will do a great job at tax cuts though!! (The bottom 40% do not pay income taxes.) The Democrats are definitely not helping either, having given up on them. So where do MAGA turn? The Green Party? Hah! The pain is real, and I think we do not get out of this mess until we get to root cause and fix it. Throwing statistics around isn't going to fix anything. This behavior is in fact exactly the "elite" problem. But, if you like statistics, start here: apps.urban.org/features/wealth-inequality-charts/ www.epi.org/publication/charting-wage-stagnation/ There is plenty of work to do. All the Democrats need now is some corporate donors eager to provide the political donations to get the democrat votes. I'm sure there are some here somewhere... Companies are so good at altruism, and they are especially happy about needed corrections like greater labor representation in the board room. I personally suggest giving the proxy votes from index funds and private equity to labor (small l). Those investors are not doing the corporate governance work and don't know up from down what the company is doing and why, but labor surely does and doesn't need to worry about SEC requirements about public statements to be involved. It would be good for companies to serve the people and the community more for a change. When we charge forth in the name of shareholder primacy, it is easy to forget a lot of those shareholders are foreigners. Why, exactly, are we so intent on putting their interests so far ahead of our own?

[@cathyschneider2126]

Funny how Brooks gives the arguments that patriarchy is actually more advantageous than meritocracy even as he calls the patriarchal advantages "meritocracy".

[@kgetz3]

The issue is not “meritocracy” and the Ivy League, the issue is conflating a college degree with intelligence (it can be indicative, but is not absolute) and then erecting a border wall around opportunity. It is a caste structure. That is correct.

[@courtneybrown6204]

Like it's really a meritocracy. If you're rich, you get school for free. If you are poor or a one-income family, you will be destroyed by debt, even if you get good grades. Ask me how I know!

[@charlesray9674]

How do you know?

[@hope.8.]

1000%

[@henryaudubon]

That's often not the case at elite universities. These institutions have massive endowments that allow them to give scholarships to low income students. Many students attend Harvard/Yale/etc. each year without paying tuition (or paying very little).

[@tyronebrown9936]

@@henryaudubon Exactly: average annual cost to a middle class family (less than $125k) of an Ivy+4 is $5,150. Columbia and MIT are free, Harvard is $500 bucks. The ROI of an Ivy+4 is obvious. (+4 are MIT, Stanford, Chicago, Duke).

[@cruisinusa5110]

The kids who get to go to the expensive private high schools get fed into Harvard etc. It's super rigged and unfair. Fuck this system.

[@Slide61]

As a blue collar worker (Marine, lineman) who transitioned to white collar (engineer, manager) the primary, and most difficult, adjustment was dealing with the fragile personalities and egos that dominated white collar folks. Politics on the white collar side were thick. Much more straight forward on the blue collar side.

[@byronwilliams7977]

I agree 100%. I've found that blue collar workers aren't nearly as duplicitous or conniving as when I did white collar work.

[@workingTchr]

This is "Liberalism". It works in a way. For example, if you're a racist and not a liberal, you'll come out and express yourself. If you're a liberal you'll keep it inside. If, as a society, we want to move away from racism, keeping it inside (for the time being) can be a good thing. It's knowing your limitations. But if doing that just suppresses the problem (liberals remain racists at heart) rather than fixing it, then it's not a good strategy anymore.

[@joebama-o5h]

Pretty much. Many genuinely talented people are kept out of the white collar jobs because of bs politics. I wasn’t even allowed to finish my master’s degree despite being a top performing student because of political nonsense, though in this case I likely have a cause to action so hopefully I can win the case and establish some sort of legal precedent that reduces their ability to do something like what happened to me, to others in the future.

[@kevinwilkins7851]

So I worked as a mason's helper and factory worker when I was in my teens and early 20's. Once I started working in the office EVERYTHING was over-analyzed by managers including body language, speaking my mind and saying ANYTHING that could be construed as insensitive. Have seen people get fired simply because they said what they thought in a meeting!!??

[@unclesamowitz9922]

David Brooksowitz knows exactly what group broke Ivy League admissions.

[@matttaylor9550]

If Mr. Brooks thinks high test scores and GPA are the key to Ivy League admission, he's mistaken. It's all about extracurriculars -- play one or more instruments and some sports, start a social justice non profit and launch a startup by age 18, and write a Pulitzer-quality personal statement, then a kid might have a chance. The awkward nerd who aces calculus and physics but fails gym can forget about it.

[@rhkrossman1827]

You got 40% of the pictures. The other 60% is for legacy, faculty, athletes and donors kids.

[@johngoodell2775]

he is simplifying but the fact remains that you still have to have elite scores - maybe they choose to admit from elite scoring kids by looking at extracurricular next - but his point still stands.

[@VanessaJohnson-g7f]

​@@johngoodell2775 True. The scores and grades are the initial screening for non-legacy, not rich kids. After that, it's the personal essay, athletics, regional representation, and various other factors.

[@RM-dc6zd]

don’t forget the admissions consultants and test prep industrial complex

[@farzana6676]

Start a social justice non profit. This is why the colleges are left wing DEI bubbles.

[@eduardoribeiro383]

The best Med school in Germany costs about $4,000.00 per year. Competition is ok and important. The US should make competition affordable to all. Through education is a great way. Europe is certainly not perfect but the weight of community is much bigger.

[@Singlesix6]

That's just the tuition, correct? It costs more than $4000 per year per student to run that school, and other people are paying for it.

[@eduardoribeiro383]

@@Singlesix6 add living costs of a dorm and food. nothing abnormal. If you are American, there are a few points you are missing: 1-In General, public education in Germany is very good since 1st grade. 2-The competition is mostly your grades in the last 4/5 years of school that allow you to apply for the best Unis. 3- Therefore within reason, anyone from whatever background has a good shot at the best schools and unis. 4- Someone who needs it, apply for financial support (tuition and living). 5 - Upon completion of the diploma, the supported person will typically have a few thousand Euros in debt. 6 - Debt to be paid in 5 to 10 years and 2-5% p.a. interest. Above all, Higher Education is a merit system here, a conquered right and your taxes in the future, because you will create value to society will pay for the system. With some variations per Bundesland/Institution, this is the basic path. University is not a profit centre like in the US. For a longer explanation and understanding, research. You will enjoy the search.

[@jiyangwenzi]

David Brooks said that, instead of meritocracy, curiosity, passion, generosity, and sensitivity are the most important qualities of a successful person. They are all virtues of a less fearful person. Being curious is very risky. Even the most knowledgeable knows little. If you constantly ask other's opinions, you will constantly get ones that conflict with your own. If you have the courage to be always ready to question your own beliefs and admit wrong, then you are constantly becoming more knowledgeable and wiser. This reward is what keeps you curious. On the other hand, if you are more fearful, you easily get angry and defensive when you hear alien ideas, being curious is not a reward but a penalty. What you will do is to only seek proofs that you are right, and avoid physically or switch off mentally on anything unfamiliar. Your sense of being omniscient gets reinforced in this process. Or perhaps your conviction is, “I know all I need to know”. That is how you lose your curiosity.

[@joshthalheimer]

There is little 'merit' in the 'meritocracy'. The problem isn't merit - it's anti-merit.

[@churblefurbles]

Depends entirely on the major, the hard sciences are hard to fake.

[@wlwang164]

So true. The extracurricular activities that these colleges use to "measure" applicants in their "holistic approach" to admissions make the problem worse. Kids from more affluent families and families with connections have more funds and access to unique activities therefore have an edge on being more "holistic".

[@SurpriseMeJT]

@@churblefurbles Smart people also go to Hollywood. They also contribute to technologies which do not contribute anything useful to society.

[@lawnmowerman716]

@@joshthalheimer yes, yes, yes!!!! Brooks is wrong and has an outdated narrative. He should listen to more podcasts and stop reading the NYT

[@scythermantis]

no, the problem is WHO gets to define 'merit' and HOW it is defined...

[@volunteerforever]

The problem is literacy. The more effectively you can listen, speak, read, and write, the better your chances of economic and social survival. Schools and social programs should do everything they can to raise literacy rates. Kids who are highly literate are better prepared to master whatever they choose to do, whether it be plumbing or neurosurgery. That's why the humanities and arts are so important in education.

[@scottstiefvater1022]

Too simple. The ability to diagnose and solve problems quickly and in creative ways is critical for plumbers and neurosurgeons alike. I don't see that as a function of literacy. It's more a function of creativity and a type of street smarts that many highly literate people lack.

[@churblefurbles]

At the moment its just indoctrination, what are they reading, its mediocre garbage.

[@hungrybraineater2]

@@scottstiefvater1022 Look at the difference between everyone else and the generation that did not grow up with TV. You even see this with immigrants who never had any TV in their childhoods but at least were literate. Passive forms of media have made people dumb and yes that even includes college educated people. I say this because ive met plenty of people from the pre TV generations who were dirt poor and not particularly scholarly at all but had a hell of a lot more going up on in their heads compared to a college educated millennial.

[@oldernu1250]

Taught in an eastern inner city school. Black violence against whites was endemic, never reported by newspapers, unaddressed by black administrators who didn't want the hassle. More than half the kids were high, not teachable, but pressure on teachers compelled passing grades, admissions and then early exit--unless they took 4.0 no show flummery courses, like Black or Womens Studies, Victimization and Oppression, Evil Caucasians...

[@justascomplicated8182]

@@scottstiefvater1022 I mean it is a function of literacy in the sense that literacy refers to competency (I work in healthcare and this is the dominant definition for literacy here). Imo the difference between street smarts and competency is that a competent person can just learn street skills over time. Competency in terms of knowledge and it's application to different ends involves a cultivation of skills that are, generally speaking, explicitly developed at most universities regardless of discipline. Whether or not a high school is able to develop the same skills likely comes down to the income of the community. I'd argue the people you're referring to are "literate" but not competent. Experience and competence are of course both important.

[@Otto-Nuys]

It is too simplistic to say that it is only a cultural divide, which is caused by a difference in education. Meritocracy does not help the weaker members of society. It suggests that everyone has equal opportunities and can realize their dreams. That is not the case. The underlying problem is neoliberalism and deregulation, which have only increased the gap between the richest 1% and the bottom of the labor market. The trickle down principle does not work. The average employee remains the same in income or loses out. Everything revolves around shareholder value, short-term profit and not about maintaining the company and thus employment. The employees are the ones who lose out. Trump is not going to change that at all.

[@js27-a5t]

Yes, this is exactly my point I made in a different comment. David Brooks, as an old-school Republican, will blame everything except the neoliberal policies he long advocated for.

[@jazzmanchgo]

At least some of what Brooks is talking about here has to do with the egregious way the humanities have been downplayed, if not eliminated, from too many college (and even high school) curriculums. Those "life skills" he's talking about are, to a significant extent, what literature, art, music, philosophy, etc. are all about, and they're what they teach us. I think that's a very serious problem, and we're not even beginning to address it.

[@jonnyfendi2003]

No one needs to pay $3,000 a class for “classical greek myths 101” . If u want enlightenment do it on your own. U go to college for preparation for a damn career, screw your money grubbing humanities bs!!

[@jerrybarrax5618]

This is the kind of comprehensive, in-depth reporting and analysis that makes public broadcasting so valuable. I can't imagine seeing an 18-minute segment like this on NBC News.

[@unclesamowitz9922]

David Brooksowitz knows exactly what group broke Ivy League admissions.

[@robertplant2059]

been watching Brooks for years, when he was on PBS with shields and he is a buffoon. Hey david, address how 1/3 of the country thinks hard drugs should be legal, crimes legal, and sloven behavior is fine. There is a reason the greatest cities in america, all dem run are now unlivable, due to crime and cost, LA, SF, Portland, Seattle, Chicago and NY., it;s called Democratic policies and is what caused america to elect a tool like Trump. You are part of the problem David, you fake Rep. . Shields was just more of a lib tool.

[@doina9487]

Make college free and you will create vertical mobility for the smart ones , not the rich ones

[@oscarwarren469]

😂

[@eyes9596]

No they can quite literally ALWAYS pay to get forward.

[@stevesharik331]

David's solution still propagates the same problem with education: preparing students for the workforce. Education should be about developing free thinkers who can question leaders and power, so we don't end up in a situation where democracy dies.

[@ianollmann9393]

Trump was heavily checked in his first presidency by people questioning leaders, especially within the government. However, there always will be yes men and party loyalists. I expect him to stack his cabinet with these folks this time around. We'll have to see how that goes. Probably not well. I don't think we can really rely on the entire population being critical thinkers to save us. There will always be the dim and easily confused, who need clarity more than anything else to function, not to mention the occasional extremely clever Harvard educated MAGA apparatchik. Maybe we could start with the Supreme Court and have some critical thinking there. We would do better if those who believed in democracy believed in serving the electorate. That is where we are going wrong.

[@dianescarritt1796]

This story is very one-sided. I was a full-scholarship student at 2 of the finest schools in the US. I grew up in the center of the country, went to a public high school. I treasure my education and am leaving the meager savings I have to the educational institutions that gave me an experience I would never had had otherwise. The money will go to the next generation. Neither my Ivy League husband nor I have any children, we grew up in the 60's and have always stood up for the very people David Brooks never interacts with. I work with the families of disenfranchised, women in recovery rearing children with minimal support from the government. Perhaps I need to re-write David's article. The Atlantic deserves better input. (Speaking of elite organizations.)

[@racheltschantz1775]

Yessss....spot on!

[@noodlehat3250]

I have several Ivy league graduates in my family and trust me you wouldn't want to get lost in the woods with them

[@b0tterman]

I'm an education reporter and the bright spot in higher ed are community colleges, who accept everybody. It gives anybody a chance to a degree and a path to workforce development. Career training programs are also great.These things are happening and they're making a difference on the local level . They restore the definition of merit.

[@KoichiSasamori]

"Highly intelligent people are really good at persuading themselves that their own false ideas are true." Brooks hits the nail on the head.

[@Atilla-m9i]

He said a funny.

[@jackselvia2709]

Unfortunately, Brooks is plainly one of those people.

[@grobmanm]

It's a condition diagnosed as intellectual arrogance. Practicly an epidemic.

[@doctor_fever]

@@jackselvia2709 Well said

[@buzoff4642]

He's trying. He may not see in his blind spots, but then, most of us don't. But, he's trying.

[@TheCDNJoe2]

I think it's important for David Brooks, (and others), to account for how precarious work is and unaffordable life has become. Business doesn't care about their workers, community or country anymore. Governments have ignored the people in those communities for so long they just voted to blow up the entire political system! The public didn't just "loose" their sense of community, it has been stripped away from us. Along with any wealth, civil and voting rights, security, privacy, etc, etc. "American exceptionalism" is a derogatory term outside of the US.

[@christopher7824]

If prestige academia required psychological exams they could prevent the admission of sociopaths.

[@unclesamowitz9922]

David Brooksowitz knows exactly what group broke Ivy League admissions.

[@HowardThompson-ux7kf]

I have a child at an Ivy League school now. I can say this from her experience, many students there are very smart and hard working ... and very heavily Asian american. So the future will look different one way or another.

[@kev4241]

there was an admissions officer who said their school would be 80% asian if they "let the thing run loose" (ie. really meritocratic)

[@HowardThompson-ux7kf]

@@kev4241 To be honest, I think at least a part of the populist backlash against higher education and the Ivy League in particular is the fact that it isn't the same old white establishment that is excelling at the highest levels.

[@didirobert3657]

I wasn't speaking about the Asian students in the Ivy League. They all work hard, from what I've seen.

[@sorenandersen6832]

Great interview with Srinivasan and Brooks. Lots of relevant ideas here to consider. What struck me most - shop class previously having real value in high school. That ended when, the 1990s? Our country, starting at the top in the greater institution of the White House and moving out through public policy and popular media, pushed the idea that value in a person lies in higher education. The national goal was to provide every American the opportunity to go to college. This means stationary learning in front of computers and books and lecturers for not just 12 years, but 18 and more (we have to add preschool and kindergarten now) became the most important skill in America. So many people are just not built for that, and our nation devalued those people.

[@dyskelia]

Let’s not pretend that taking 10 more anthropology courses, (the equivalent of a masters) for example, makes you more intelligent, capable, or worthy in the workplace. Degrees no longer guarantee intelligence or competence so they shouldn’t be the prerequisite for upward mobility across the board. He’s right when he says: ‘this is a status system that really has no correlation in reality.’

[@devoteeofgeorgesmiley7184]

Yeah, the Ivy League admitted Duh Donald, Better Dead Than Ted Cruz, Pete Hegseth, Jared Kushner, J.D. Vance, Fat Tony Scalia, Clarence 'The Hair' Thomas, Sam 'The Salmon' Alito, 'Run, Josh, Run!' Hawley, James 'Harlan's' Ho, Ron DeSantis, Tom 'Go Pick' Cotton, and Elise Stefanik.

[@InSouthernMaine]

Not Thomas - he’s a Holy Cross Grad.

[@johnliu3317]

@@InSouthernMaineHe went to Yale Law after undergrad.

[@nedmerrill5705]

Some Ivy Leaguers have more in common with the rest of us than they do with other Ivy Leaguers. In that sense Trump et. al. are renegades, outcasts. God bless 'em.

[@bernardajimenez1575]

That's why they prefer uneducated people. The people who voted them. Let's make america disgrace again.

[@lolonnie]

Great comment. But you're dealing with brainwashed, fascistic cultists. No logic is going to penetrate their brains. They are a lost cause. There is no saving them. Stay strong brother. ✊

[@danielscheerer3032]

David's analysis is, I think, quite brilliant. I have family in elite admissions, children through largely elite schools, and they are set up for success better than most in the world around them. I run a small manufacturing company with almost no upper level schooling, and they are wonderful, bright people, working hard, whose lives I am trying to help improve and expand. They are us, and we should be in it together. I hope I'm on the right track.

[@LisaMartinez-ri6ve]

I think a lot of this is networking too among the top 10 schools. McKesson hires from the top 10s for a reason. Most are super bright, but not all.

[@nathanrohde3440]

Mr. Brooks I've listened to you for decades because my parents listened to PBS News Hour. "You're not all that competent so I'm going to revolt" is the attitude I've had toward you since I was a teenager. To be fair unlike a lot of pundits I think you're probably a decent human, but you haven't been insight or relevant since the 80s, 90s at latest but you've made an entire living from this.

[@JRPetruk]

You have analyzed Mr. Brooks perfectly. Good job.

[@deme9873]

Mr. Brooks makes a lot of sense to me. I'm a born, bred, and raised American and I know for sure that he knows, just like I do, that Americans have the attention spans of gnats and the depth of a goldfish bowl.

[@robertplant2059]

@@deme9873 and yet we dominate the world, don't buy cheap russian gas and prompt WW3.

[@christopherjones2669]

All of Mr. Brooks articles are fluff over the decades. His books too. His articles would be better with just one line ' attend church' ' keep commandments' or in words of Jordan Peterson ' get married and have children. ' Trump genius to keep some things simple.

[@kurlykurtosh]

As Someone who benefited greatly from this system and now have children who are not academically successful but thinks broadly and adapts well with people and environments but is not recognized for that - It is quite apparent the system needs to be revisited.

[@jenniferamyx78]

How is it that college-educated is equated with Ivy League? Also, explain why all of Trump’s people are Ivy Leaguers.

[@lynns4426]

Money can buy an "elite" education. You can get other students to take tests for your child, donate to the school, or be a legacy admission. Money and privilege matter more than intelligence and knowledge.

[@belladonnatook8851]

​@@lynns4426And that's Trump to a T!!

[@alisonmadden6471]

Or dem????

[@hdlc4635]

A lot of Trump's people are "lesser" educated.

[@ashleyconnor8891]

Cheaters, obviously

[@williambailey8905]

If groups are not made up of complementary cognitive abilities, group behaviour and culture can quickly become maladaptive and unsustainable with significant negative consequences.

[@buzoff4642]

Google found that out the hard way. For a while hired only top of class from Ivy League. They were all so arrogant as to believe they and only they were perpetually and always right, they could not collaborate. It went down in flames fairly quickly. They're finding businesses with primarily males in c suite or board of directors has a similar problem, making them less profitable. Apparently men tend to be more arrogant, and will stand by their decision regardless of any better idea on the table. Arrogance fascinates me, which strikes me as "my education or position is so superior that my learning is over".

[@hdlc4635]

Biggest inequity is that the 'elite' colleges have much larger endowments, funded by wealthy alumni, such that many Ivy and comparable schools have no loan financial aid policies making it much cheaper to attend these schools than other less wealthy institutions.

[@tyronebrown9936]

Last year I ran an average annual cost for middle class families to send a student to an Ivy+4 and it's $5,150. Columbia and MIT are free. Harvard is $500 bucks.

[@LindaBourell]

This was a really good conversation. It's important that people in academia acknowledge the mistakes that have been made and David Brooks seems willing to do this. He discusses a lot of important ideas. I agree that we need to get back to teaching trades in high school for those who want to go that route. They are great jobs and we really need skilled workers and trades people.

[@kevinbaum5519]

Identifies the problem and has some solutions. I like that. i met him one summer. I was on bike and he was on a walk. I stopped to talk for a minute. Very nice guy.

[@deutsch-7946]

Going to NYC public school in the 70s, I remember going to shop classes - woodwork, ceramics, cooking, and auto mechanics. All important skills to this day.

[@unclesamowitz9922]

David Brooksowitz knows exactly what group broke Ivy League admissions.

[@oppenheim2]

I rejected admission to an Ivy League university in 1960 and retired in 1990 at age 48. Average career earnings just $27k. Started saving, from small allowances, at age 7, investing at age 15. Still hanging around and happy.

[@buzoff4642]

Relevance? 1960s, when the nation still pilfered its easy life from the value of cheap black labor. Stock market, when Reagan put his thumb on the scale, for Wall St. The problem with smug is the requisite blind eye toward luck.

[@millburnboy]

This is an excellent video worth listening to. I went to Williams College and Cal, Berkeley as an undergraduate and graduate student; two of the colleges mentioned (or implied) in this article. I have always thought that the education one receives at an 'elite' college is WAY over blown and falsely viewed as being superior. In my 50+ years since graduating from these 'elite' schools, I have met many people who went to a 'lesser' college, a trade school or had no college education, who had better organizational and critical thinking skills than I or many of my fellow elite college grads ever had. The perpetuated belief that going to the 'right' elite college accurately reflects someone with a high intellect who is guaranteed success in the 'real world' is misleading at best, and false at worst. The fixation on sending one's child to the 'best' schools is a manifestation of a meritocratic social caste system that has plagued America for decades and has created a deep divide in American society. The recent federal election has borne this fact out. Take for example, the Democratic party, once the party of the working class, which is now largely viewed to be a party of the urban and suburban social elites. Conversely, the Republican party has been transformed from an elitist party to now represent the average working class American who feels disenfranchised from a society based largely on a caste system and social elitism.

[@howtoninjasfan]

Excellent thought provoking questions and answers. Great job!!

[@garysweeten5196]

I rode a bus to school so I was relegated into shop classes. I had blue collar jobs for 2 years and then attended a Community College that changed my life. I now have a doctorate and teach globally.

[@garysweeten5196]

@ It says, “I rode a bus to school. As a result I was relegated into shop classes. Every boy from the rural areas was automatically sent to shop and assumed we were not college able. They were wrong because I went to college and have a Doctorate in soft skills of psychology and teaching. I have written 10 books and trained people in 50 countries.

[@tomfields3682]

What?? What kind of school assigns class by what means of transportation you take to school? Is this some kind of Southern thing? I rode to school on the bus too, as did most other kids in our neighborhood. Very few of us took shop classes!

[@garysweeten5196]

Modern bussing was from one part of a city to another. This was from farms and villages far from the city school. Rural students were assumed to always be blue collar workers and we were but I was an outlier. It is an affirmation of Brooks statements.

[@chatisawasteoftime]

@@garysweeten5196 Psychology, teaching, written 10 books, trained people... Sorry, but precisely this is the problem with America. We need less of this and more of family, community, and blue collar workers.

[@garysweeten5196]

99% of my training and interest and activities are focused on building healthy relationships. I am a marriage and family counselor so I agree.

[@JosephHuether]

David is old enough to have probably played the Milton Bradley board game “Life” back in the 1960s. It was very popular. I guess we can blame “Life”. The primary goals were to finish first and accumulate assets. At the very beginning you could quickly get a job and go to work…or…start slowly, “go to college” and possibly land on a lucrative profession after which the asset would just pile up. Kids playing Life always went to college.

[@SuperSonicBaroque]

“Elites aren’t that competent” 🔥🔥🔥🔥

[@msvulcanspock]

David Brooks' own analysis proves this.

[@DuffyGabi]

My two US senators went to Harvard and Stanford. My former governor went to Yale and married a Rockefeller. I am so damn tired of liberal elites (I voted Harris). They are so over-represented in positions of power that they should embrace diversity, equity, and inclusion and relegate themselves to being a plumber or cashier.

[@cruz5262]

Out of the blue, my older sister shared a scar of having been bullied back in the 1960s. Before we deemphasize educating ourselves, let's solve the huge ritualistic American terror of bullying that occurs in American schools.

[@ianollmann9393]

My kids faced almost no bullying throughout school. I recall heading home crying once a week. For them, never. Maybe your state is different, but we just don't see bullying from gen alpha. The teachers, who grew up at a different time occasionally bully them though. Our PE teacher seems to have gone off the rails today. Hopefully he'll resolve whatever is bugging him by December and find his way back to kind. Mostly I think Gen Alpha has to deal with bullying from the older generations. They probably don't think much of us.

[@CheddarBayBaby]

David Brooks has been repeating the same pseudo-profound nonsense for his entire career. If this man represents the product of Ivy League education we’re doomed

[@thefingerofgod69]

If I remember correctly, he attended the University of Chicago and (again, if I remember correctly) was a history major. Technically NOT an Ivy League school but still considered "elite" (whatever that means these days...).

[@chuckfinley3542]

Were Brooks to never mention again his “soi-disant” elite education he received & the elite schools he has been teaching at (part-time), he would shrivel into the anonymity he richly deserves, giving him more time to contemplate the crease in Obama’s trousers that enamored him during a face-to-face interview.

[@princetonscholar5723]

Brooks never obtained an Ivy League education, hence it’s the bane of his existence. Signed - Princeton’90

[@chuckfinley3542]

@@princetonscholar5723 Conan O’Brien (Harvard ‘81, FWIW) said he met many brilliant students in Cambridge, but adds that he also met classmates who were too stupid to tie their own shoes.

[@princetonscholar5723]

@ That’s everywhere, including State U.

[@JonnM]

Hire for attitude, train for skills.

[@rickalexander9110]

That is a great motto. It's something I do in my small business, but I have never seen it framed that way. I'm almost apologetic about my hiring approach--VERY fatalistic--but I have had a great track record with employees.

[@ianollmann9393]

It is almost true! I spent a couple of decades as an engineer at Apple. It is very tempting for management to look at engineers are interchangeable worker units. 12 is better than 8, until you have to pay them. (This is wrong on so many levels!) However, there is a reason why you keep some of the top engineers on staff even when they cost double the other guy. Most of the time you are getting a raw deal because the guy is solving ordinary problems like everyone else, but gets paid twice as much. The difference shows up when a tough problem emerges. Then the top engineer will shine and the rest will either fail to solve the problem or even worse deliver an operating failure, which is sold to the public as a solution, but doesn't actually work. Without the top engineer around, these sorts of tough problems start to stack up and start to really bog down the company and infuriate the customers with product rough edges that never go away. If he's there then the tough problems magically disappear and you may never know you had them. You need to have a couple of extremely competent people around for dealing with extremely difficult problems. Otherwise, you just will never solve them. In the mean time, they are helpful for keeping the train on the rails. -- if you have tough problems, that is. If you are just running a hamburger franchise, then probably you mostly just need people to show up on time, at least until the soft ice cream machine goes down. Funny how that problem comes up so much!

[@jonnyfendi2003]

By your theory no black woman would ever get hired but we can’t say that huh??!!

[@Vegaswill714]

I really think David Brooks is onto something. In my experience, in the 2000's, a common perception was that all students had to be directed towards higher education. There was a sharp shift away from vocational education. Students with mediocre grades were shunted away from vocational training or even Community College towards four year institutions. Many were encouraged to take student loans only to drop out or receive degrees without much earning potential. We need to go back to a model where students who aspire to become a Physician, Engineer, Lawyer or similar careers have options to go to four year institutions and those who do not have interest in higher education have vocational training or apprenticeships as options. David Brooks description of "Project Based Education" does sound a bit like an old-fashioned apprenticeship.

[@pattaylor1801]

HEAR ME!!! THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH BEING EDUCATED!! 50 years ago White people were EDUCATED and THE ELITE!! Now that Blacks and Brown people are EDUCATED AND SOCIALLY polished everyone has an issue with having a college degree. NEVER APOLOGIZE FOR YOUR HARD-EARNED COLLEGE DEGREE!!!

[@s.williamshay6702]

Of note: Brooks' father taught at NYU and his mother taught at Columbia.

[@dishdesigner]

4:30 "I'm a member of this educated class. I went to an elite school. I teach at elite schools. I'm deep in the system."

[@christinacascadilla4473]

Is this the guy who drank $40 of whisky for lunch at an airport and then complained about how much his hamburger cost? I love how all these people who have never taught in a high school always know how to fix schools.

[@LigmusCrotum]

Should we be listening to the people that ruined high schools? I don't think so. All public teachers care about is more money and benefits for themselves, they don't give a damn about the students.

[@davidabbett7011]

I have been a subscriber to The Atlantic for years and just read this cover story. This video is a terrific 18 minute summary.

[@christianebrown9213]

What David Brooks is saying is something I've been observing and thinking and saying my entire adult life (going on 60 here...)

[@deme9873]

I'm "going on 60" here also. David Brooks has long been a sober and thoughtful voice in the wilderness as far as my entire adult life is concerned.

[@lenotran4164]

I buy this: Highly intelligent people are very skilful in delivering ideas which they believe are true but false in fact.

[@LigmusCrotum]

By definition, highly intelligent people would be less likely to hold an untrue belief. Highly intelligent people would be more successful in defending a false idea, but they would also have fewer false ideas.

[@rebauer2000]

I don't know if I agree with everything he said, but David Brooks always gets me thinking.

[@anathardayaldar]

The sciences make life more possible. The arts make life worth living.

[@ferminromero2602]

Good to hear Brooks let go and fully speak his mind, freely, without the constraints of being on a panel. Would like to hear more of him as a commentator.

[@deme9873]

David Brooks is always good to read and listen to, by my reckoning. But, I suppose I haven't followed him closely or long enough to realize that there was ever a time when he needed to "let go".

[@EdwardLindon]

He does nothing but "speak his mind". Sadly, since he never seems to do any actual research or thinking, he has no mind to speak of.

[@deme9873]

@@EdwardLindon What sort of a number did David Brooks do on your Alma Mater?

[@cathyschneider2126]

@@deme9873 Brooks has always been a pompous ass who seems to believe his opinions are worth more than anyone else's research or life experience.

[@cruz5262]

"...Educated elites." No, it's the wealthy 1% and the oligarchs!!!!

[@Tim_Russert]

🎯 This story is another populist distraction. The real problems aren't "dignified" enough to be discussed by MSM. 55% of American adults read below the sixth-grade level (Gallup). Let's start there.

[@DanHowardMtl]

Caused by commies like you.

[@ianollmann9393]

The confusion is that the educated elites are paid by the 1% to serve their interests. It should be evident to anyone that the contract that screwed you over wasn't written by the billionaire himself.

[@unclesamowitz9922]

David Brooksowitz knows exactly what group broke Ivy League admissions.

[@christopherjones2669]

Bernie worth 5 million, Warren 10 million. Clinton 100 million. Obama has 4 mansions and zero career. At least Trump and Romney worked in real world. With real people. Real problems.

[@justagod7]

Trump himself is an Ivy League elite!!! University of Pennsylvania!!! Make this make sense.

[@dinaf1409]

Oh, yae! "A very stable genius", indeed. Wait for 6 months and see.

[@belladonnatook8851]

Trump is *NOT* educated! He cruised by on his daddy's money, as so many do.

[@hope.8.]

T bag was born into wealth and connection, which is what he's now protecting- whatever his supposed political party.

[@ashleyconnor8891]

He paid to have someone do his assignments and exams

[@tonioinverness]

Trump may have an Ivy League degree but he has always been a social outcast. A Queens-bred WASP from a multi-ethnic borough who was always looked down upon by the serious Manhattan real estate elite. He was never fully invited into their circles--he and his family were seen as poorly bred low-brow strivers. I mean you can tell by the way the way they act. With the possible exception of Baron, Melania, and Jared, they all come across as people who just recently got used to using the toilet indoors. Getting the degree wasn't a ticket to the elite; it was part of his revenge on the elite. Never underestimate the extent to which Trump is motivated by grievance and revenge, the desire to stick it to all the high-bred college crowd who would not invite him to their parties. Three guesses who Hilary Clinton reminds Trump of.

[@Missy-Missy1111]

My father was illiterate, but I was fortunate enough & worked hard enough to earn a BA & an MA. I'm tired of my non-college educated family & friends getting jealous & offended when I use my hard earned knowledge. When I say something they do not understand, they get angry. My response is the following quote: "If you don't know ask, you will be a fool for the moment, but wise for the rest of your life. If they do not have the courage to admit their ignorance & have a desire to learn, then they will remain angry & ignorant.

[@LisaMartinez-ri6ve]

I agree. My husband got into Columbia U. His dad had died and his mom worked hard. She lived pay check to check but my husband did very well in school. I would never define him as an elite. He worked hard . I too worked hard too in college. With that said , we also should encourage the trades.

[@joshthalheimer]

If you get the quote wrong, are you a fool for a minute or for the rest of your life? Just curious.

[@jennychurchill2716]

I can relate to this with regards to my brother. Our parents were not college educated and nor was I, but my brother was very bright. He managed to put himself through university and became a very successful Engineer and businessman . Throughout school he was envied and mocked by the majority of the kids in our neighbourhood. To me he was a hero and throughout my life I benefitted from his curiosity, intelligence and good humour. I appreciate people for who they are and not what society expects of them.

[@Missy-Missy1111]

@@joshthalheimer I'm sorry for the typo.

[@belmounlv1]

There are differently important bases of knowledge. Peasants, for instance, know things you have no clue about -- but, that has no place in your world.

[@wynnsimpson]

Yes, we need leaders who are wise, perceptive, curious, caring, resilient and committed to the common good. 16:21

[@MegawattKS]

Good discussion - but there was no mention of State schools. State schools can be just as good as Ivy League ones. I was lucky. I went to a state university on the east coast in the 70s and then took an engineering job out in California where I worked alongside others who went to more prestigious schools. It became quickly apparent to me that my colleagues who went to much higher ranking schools didn't know or do any better than I did. I did work my butt off in college, and on the job - so there's also that. And on the job, we all concentrated on doing our part toward the system we were building. But that's the message I tried to give to my students when I taught at a state university for 25 years (after working in industry for 10). It's all about motivation and working hard - not the school's name. We also did lots of project-based classes. Projects replacing homework. Takes more work than solving problems from the back of a book. But students ultimately love it because they are empowered by it. Bring back the pursuit of education by tying it to what it empowers one to understand and do ! (My comments may be slanted toward the physical sciences and engineering, since that's my field - but what you said about teamwork, etc is equally important there.)

[@anthonyvaldez6892]

Brooks makes some good points. This also bleeds into the legal system, which shapes society .Most are graduates of Ivy League schools.

[@hope.8.]

Helps to mention sickening lack of investment in public education before kids get to college. It's not a meritocracy, it's a who you know. Know way too many highly competent people without BAs and MAs and too many rewarded not particularly competent people because of their socioeconomic status- which they almost Always inherited Somehow- property, uncle, grandparent, etc.

[@mooo6747]

David Brooks has really opened my eyes in a way I never expected. I'm a former admissions officer who worked at an elite (top 10) university and am also a former psychology lecturer, so I'm familiar with the history of IQ tests and I'm familiar with all the ins and outs of meritocracy as it pertains to college admissions. But I never really put the two together until now. It makes sense that aptitude tests like the SAT are the offspring of IQ tests. So I appreciate his direction of thought. However, what Brooks ignores is the long and grand history of anti-intellectualism that we have had in this country for over a hundred years. Evangelical Christianity has its roots in it, in fact; it was, in part, a response to being left out by the elite East Coast power brokers (who entered politics straight out of Harvard and Yale). The evangelicals' idea was that if God created everyone to be equal, then my ideas are as good as your ideas. Sounds good on paper until you appoint a flat-earther to be Secretary of Transportation, the person in charge of aviation! I like Brooks' example of a high school that focuses not on book learning but on projects. I think it's something to explore and take seriously... not for all students of course but for those who need it. There will, however, always be a class division even on those lines...

[@twoeydad]

Thanks David once again for your ideas and insights. I read your article in the Atlantic a few days ago and I have to say that I like this interview even more especially the end of the interview where you talk about searching for a new identity.

[@Maxfli82]

Reminds me of the old Steve Jobs quote that says that you will meet many people in life and many of them are not that much smarter than you. But you all equally have a chance to make a dent in the world.

[@6williamson]

And yet here we are, once again, an elite institution's professor telling the rest of the world what we should do.

[@sunnyd4734]

Exactly 💯 and he's also insinuating that the college educated don't vote Republican.

[@Mark-gg6iy]

He is not telling anybody much less "the world" ( the USA is not "the world") what to do. He is thinking aloud and exploring ideas. Pity you find that challenging.

[@Mark-gg6iy]

@@sunnyd4734 No, he did not except for someone who does not understand the inherent qualifiers. He does not need to insinuate the majority of college-educated (those with a degree not drop-outs) do not vote for the GOP, it is documented.

[@alsehl3609]

The construction workplace is a pure meritocracy. Either you can do the job very accurately or you are out! You can easily ruin a whole building or system by doing it wrong which is going to be extremely expensive to correct. Take the millennium building in San Francisco as a perfect example. A lot of workers did not do well in school but perform their trades at high competence levels because they have natural aptitude, patience, good organization skills and drive.

[@Jeff-i8u]

Absolutely. Engineering also is like this - if you fail, bridges collapse, planes crash, astronauts die. The only thing that matters is success with nature!! That is being 100% realistic and reality-based.

[@christianefiorito3204]

This is a part of it. These schools are also extremely expensive.

[@DJNaztorious]

Excellent interview. Thanks for posting!

[@jimsimpson2393]

I have felt there has been a serious problem with our education system for a very long time. Your comments / essay are a very clear description of the problems I was unable to clarify for myself. Thank-you. I would suggest we add to your recommendations physical education which provided needed social, team and physical wellbeing skills. Also, some form(s) of mandatory non-military national service that begins like military bootcamp - introductory skill building via teamwork where the teams are made up of individuals from diverse backgrounds to help expand a young person's awareness of the diversity of fellow Americans and, oh by the way, coming to realize they are as competent and humane as themselves. Follow this with assignment to various training specialties such as infrastructure building and repair (similar to the Corp of Engineers), technology (similar to the Signal Corp), leadership (similar to Officer Candidate School), emergency response (similar to FEMA or fire fighting). Graduating from this advanced training leads to a term of service in those specialties. It would be a life building experience increasing mutual respect and concern for others, building a valuable educational and performance resume. These new veterans and our country would benefit in so many ways...

[@markw9512]

Completely ignores the destruction of middle class due to manufacturing going overseas and offshoring. Conservatives don’t want to discuss this because their benefactors get fatter and richer because of it.

[@ericchristen5275]

He’s an anti trump liberal, Einstein

[@ronwidelec7258]

He does address that in the interview... Did you listen? This is the first time I've heard Brooks say anything interesting.

[@markw9512]

@@ericchristen5275 actually no, he’s an avowed conservative, genius, he just happens to have enough brains and principle to oppose Trump. Do some research

[@markw9512]

@@ronwidelec7258 oh? I guess I missed it, can you tell me what time it happens in the video? Don’t have time to watch it all again right now

[@ronwidelec7258]

@@markw9512 No clue... but he says something related to free trade and adds that jobs like his were not shipped overseas, but many blue-collar jobs were... highlighting the way highly educated people have not been impacted in the same way as working class people.

[@xyliu00]

"diploma divide" is true. More educated Chinese American voted for Trump in 2024. One main reason is because they believe college admission nowadays is about diversity more than merits.

[@douglemay7989]

And they expect the orange blob to care?

[@xyliu00]

@@douglemay7989 No. but they think he wouldn't care about diversity so they wouldn't get the worst of both worlds You see, whites think asians are tiny and weak, and blacks think east asians are pseudo Caucasian.

[@georges4543]

Only if the higher ed system is a meritocracy! It is NOT. My sons who graduated from very good high schools in Massachusetts with great academics all got rejected by every ivy league school they applied to. And yet, many unqualified students, legacy & affirmative action babies as well as student athletes, got in. I no longer consider ivies the gold standards. If I were the hiring manager, I would not give any high regards to the ivy graduates in the last 20 years.

[@charlesray9674]

Define unqualified. You lumped affirmative action and legacy with athletes. In majority of colleges and universities, athletes have never took anyone's spot. A lot of people think because someone has 4.5+ GPA or perfect SAT/ACT scores should be get to go to any school he wants. Standardized tests can only show what a person doesn't know not what he knows. Those tests cannot show how a person uses his experiences to solving problems.

[@johndoeboston123]

You're not alone. Many high-powered law firms and Wall Street firms do not hire from the Ivies.

[@johndoeboston123]

@@charlesray9674 The question isn't who took somebody's spot. The question is-as hiring manager-do you know what you're getting? Increasingly with the Ivy Leagues you do not, which means you have to do in-house testing of applicants. And once you start doing _that,_ you quickly realize that you're overpaying for Ivy League grads--you can arbitrage excellent hires out of state university STEM programs at lower cost, and they show up hungrier and with less of an entitled attitude. It's a win all the way around.

[@charlesray9674]

@@johndoeboston123 I was responding to the poster talking about "unqualified" students. Anyways, I always thought that someone graduating from an Ivy league school isn't smarter than anyone from other institutions; it's just a name that eludes to something that's probably not there. Style over substance.

[@dvdbluraydude3038]

I went the blue collar route after the military. It wasn’t because of lack of intelligence, I have one sister that’s a lawyer and another sister that has a Doctorate’s. My trade pays me over $200,000 a year, it’s not a 9 to 5 and I work out of town a lot but I’m happy

[@reneespring834]

Fantastic article in the Atlantic, made even better by hearing the authors deep dive. A+

[@suzibarlow3611]

Thank you for always a great interview. Sadly, I, as a white same age educated woman to David Brooks, I cannot stand listening to him. He is a self appointed philosopher who sees the world from old, white male eyes despite the circle around him changing color, gender and age. God bless him. It is not the universities that have spoiled anything. It is lack preschool and public 1-8 grades funding that have let the U.S. population down. My father, a WWII pilot of a B-17 and B52, with a crew of 8 men had a solid high school education that allowed him to fly. The IQ and education of this nation has been dropping. We have great teachers and no funding. Time to retire your lofty ideas David. You are last generation and we need to move on. It is not our world anymore.

[@Perovskite-q3n]

Wow, not much chance of building community and solidarity with this mentality.

[@heronimousbrapson863]

When I was young, I was taught that education was the great social leveller. I now realize that that was wrong, particularly in the US, where tuition has become increasingly unaffordable. A lot of negative ideas, such as supply side economics came from academia. I can't recall a time when the nation has been so economically divided as it is now.

[@keithwiebe1787]

Yes and no. I know 27 year old making the same money as me at the same company and I had 40 years experience. Some of them are living a very good life yet still vote against their best wishes (vote red because that's what they've been taught-I left that thinking when Obama came along).

[@5675492]

Someone needs to explain to David Brooks - the champion of neo-liberalism - that it's neo-liberalism that's breaking America and the world .

[@christopherjones2669]

Internet helps college courses be free and or cheap. Things are improving.

[@jthakurdin]

Very good analysis.

[@yuckyool]

I read this article and found it fascinating. Having been one of those grand-children of immigrants who grew up in the 1960's~1970's and yes, got degrees from two Ivy League schools . . . I lived among and rebelled from that world.

[@DanaChase]

I'm a high school graduate and probably not part of the majority listening to this but I believe David has nailed it.

[@tyronebrown9936]

David Brooks taught at Yale....he's part of his own problem.

[@tuckerfrd1]

Yes, and this is why what he's saying gives him more credibility than someone critiquing from the outside.

[@johngoodell2775]

critical thinking of one's own surroundings is the basic goal of a liberal arts education....

[@tyronebrown9936]

He’s part of the Inequalityocracy. That’s the critical thinking point. It’s pretty obvious to most of the Ivy schools that broadening their student bodies (increasing access to opportunity) is important: that’s why their average annual cost to a middle class family, $5,150, is much lower than most flagship state universities. Ivy composite demographics still have a way to go though: White: 50%, Asian: 22%, Hispanic: 13%, Black: 8%, Mixed: 6% FYI: the most diverse Ivy is Columbia while the least is Dartmouth. Curiously, they are the least and most expensive Ivy schools for middle class students to attend. Cheers.

[@johngoodell2775]

@@tyronebrown9936 sorry but you are making no sense relative to his arguments. It makes no sense to disregard someone's argument because they have direct knowledge of something. Insiders are usually the sharpest critics. Financial aid to these schools is based on the student having elite level grade and SAT scores to even be considered - to even get into the pile that is being evaluated..., and then their financial aid is based on their family income. So to Brook's point society is being sorted on based on intelligence scoring vs. say teamwork scoring.

[@tyronebrown9936]

@ They’re not only being admitted based on grades and scores. Don’t be naive. Btw, I graduated Harvard, Yale and Columbia and also attended Amherst. (and also have worked for the first three). I have as much direct knowledge of these institutions as Brooks (+100 courses and 4 degrees worth). There is no doubt inequality is a scourge, but it is a feature of a broader set of institutional injustices than Brooks alludes and they affect income, wealth, health, wellness and longevity, education, employment, housing, access to the franchise, general treatment in society and fairer access to successful life outcomes. Starving the population of critical revenue needed to remedy these issues accelerated under St. Ronald when he cut tax rates by 50% on those who least needed tax cuts. Decades of ham handed tax policies, pernicious loosening of regulations and targeting of private sector unions have also affected middle class wages and impaired social mobility. Education is critical, yes, and the set of meaningful actors woefully small, but stripping the middle class of resources is the primary issue, not capabilities such as grades and test scores: they are manifestations of the issue - the routinized diminution of available societal assets, but not the issue itself. Cheers.

[@artofmusic303]

I have no respect for David Brooks's opinions. He's always been blind to the realities of the lives of average Americans. He has an earnest, nerdy manner that hides his elitism and religious / economic conservatism.

[@mightyjjk1298]

Brooks is not a conservative although he claims to be. His views on MAGA reveal his progressivism.

[@MatthewJohnson-zx9zs]

if you can't respect David Brooks then there is something wrong deep down in your soul

[@Teddy_Toto]

Just wanted to commend this channel for keeping the discussion alive by keeping the Comments section open. Apparently, there are PBS channels still dedicated to allowing the voice of the public to come through.

[@JuliusSmith]

Instead of dismantling academic meritocracies, we should _supplement_ them with equally respected areas of excellence, spanning all areas of human activity and aptitudes. Don't destroy a valuable system that has served us well in many ways, but _expand_ it to accommodate all kinds of people and roles in society. We should equally value all elements of our diversity, but don't try to force it into one mold. Don't _change_ the definition of merit, _expand_ it to many more dimensions, and equally value everyone who is trying in their own way.

[@josephdolinsky8668]

Hmmm…so David I guess you can rant about Ivy League schools because you graduated from the humble and lowly University of Chicago. Growing up in The 60’s and 70’s - going to college, and if possible getting into an Ivy League, was considered a good thing and encouraged. Different world now.

[@Grayson-om5hk]

So higher education results in living 8 years longer, having 1/10 the risk of opioid addiction, being less likely to be obese, more likely to get married, less likely to have children out of wedlock, and have more friends. And let's not forget the financial advantages. And being an "educated elite" is a problem? The only problem i see is thinking ivy league schools are better that state universities. They are clearly not. But a college education is obviously good for the individual, the family, business, and society in general. There is nothing wrong with choosing not to go to college. But why do so many that choose not to go to college resent those that do? I'm sure for some that could do well in college there are impediments. That's how it is. There are many who would fail college and do. That's how it is. This is fundamental to a meritocracy. The cultural problem seems to be that many of the uneducated resent the rewards gained by those who are more educated, and even feel they have every 'right' to have as much financial and social success as those who earned a higher education. Couple that with a republican party who has been on a mission to destroy public education, any power wielded by science and higher education, and a rejection of expertise and you get the makings of idiocracy. Being better educated IS better, in every way. Period. There is no one who wouldn't benefit from more education. Period. Its NOT a class issue. Its good for everyone.

[@kathykobs3865]

Agree

[@dianescarritt1796]

I could re-write David Brooks' article based on my personal experience as a graduate of one of the finest Ivy League Schools, definitely not Harvard or Yale. I then qualified for grad school at one of the finest public schools, UC Berkeley. I am not rich but I can support myself, be proud of my values. No meritocracy or legacy involved in my situation. My high scores in high school attracted the school that recruited me, when neither of my parents had graduated from college. I devote my learning and experience to helping others, the disenfranchised. David's comments are arrogant, in spite of his effort to seem more enlightened. We need to be wary of false solutions that will lead to totalitarianism.

[@ARIZJOE]

I agree with the comments here. And slightly disagree with Brooks. The animus of the uneducated is directed at all educated people - not simply those from Ivy schools. And I seriously doubt that MAGA could tell you the difference. A lot of the uneducated think that all you do is pay tuition, and the school gives you a chit or a token for a better life. They have no idea how much hard work it is to master a discipline - particularly in STEM majors. But for the educated, a deindustrialized, high tech, third wave economy would collapse. Most of these people it seems would prefer to live in a society based on an extraction economy - which is a main element of a third world country.

[@a.t.stowell1709]

@@Grayson-om5hk you need to think about the direction of causation and other variables here. Does going to college cause you to live longer, etc., or does the person who’s character and personality is such that they are not interested in college, and is part of a larger constellation of variables leading to various pathologies? Put differently, suppose there was no such thing as higher ed. The same people who would have gone are likely more motivated and disciplined such that they would be wealthier, less addicted, live longer, etc. Education isn’t the magic social cure that progressives hold it up to be.

[@maryk4591]

Neoliberalism (created and delivered to society by the college educated) and supported by a bipartisan educated elite, destroyed the industrial base of this country, sent millions of good paying manual labor jobs overseas and ripped the heart out of working class communities across this country. Manual work, stripped of its industrialized, unionized dignity became looked down upon while a college education suddenly became crucial to economic success. Newsflash: not everyone is suited to a 4 yr college degree, not everyone’s intelligence can be measured in the same way. And frankly as long as the Democratic Party continues to hemorrhage working class support, it will become a minority party bc there are not enough of you anymore to overcome a multiracial working class coalition.

[@alvinfell4471]

"We are all stuck in the system" Very telling.

[@whackamole4909]

"especially if you voted for Kamal". Very true.

[@buzoff4642]

It is long overdue for an overhaul. The cookie cutter. Nice run at regimenting into broad education, but it needs to evolve.

[@bettinastewart5198]

How about thinking and feeling empathy with Laken Riley's fate? How about not thinking that Kamala Harris was not cut out to be our President? How about lying to the America about Joe Biden dementia, for years? I am baffled by the need for the Democrats for not being real about the state of things.

[@Singlesix6]

"How about not thinking that Kamala Harris was not cut out to be our President? " At first I thought she might be, but she quickly and forever proved she wasn't cut out to be our President. She is not a leader, she is not a public speaker, and she covered up Biden's failing ability to hold a job, any job.

[@sh8nn0n92]

Endowments should be for students, not stock. End legacy admissions.