Amateur vs. Pro: Can Mods Level the Playing Field? - Porsche GT4 RS + Dundon

[@raymort3]

I think T8-T9 is about a second of possible improvement. I’d like to see you min speed at T8 at58 then get flat before the end of the white curb stripe on the right and hold it. That speed carries all the way to T11. I know from my vbox data that a slight lift going up the hill to T9 costs more than half a second. For T3, I think the gantry bridge is a mental thing and makes people want to slow down. You may consider slowing down a tad around T2 on a couple of practice laps to get the feeling of holding flat longer into T3 and getting settled. There is plenty of time to let the car settle after the T3 hop before you make the T4 turn. Most people reserve too much time and it causes them to slow too early. But, make sure to let the car settle before turning or it will snap on you. Also, if you carry too much speed into T4, it’s easy to bail out and go straight. I’ve done it. It’s super flat from T3-T5. Worth possibly doing once at a slower speed to know you have an out.

[@ItsTrackTime]

Hey Ray - Thanks for your continued tips! T8 - T9 is a definite area for continued improvement. I'm too slow around T8 and there is now a shelf on the T9 curbing that launches the cars so I was trying to find a clean line around it. Ted was taking a more aggressive line and it seemed to work. Sacrificing T2 to get more speed through T3 and T4 seems like a good approach for me while I continue to work out the line and how long I can keep my foot down without loosing the car at T4. You can see Ted was going very deep with speed at T4 and didn't brake nearly as much as Randy which gave him a lot more speed through the remainder of the esses.

[@raymort3]

@ - the brake pressure at T4 is just to give the front some grip. It’s not to slow you down. I spent many laps working up the ability to hold flat around 2 and jump the T3 hump. T8 seems to come from lots of bad instructors at COTA. For me, even with the jump, is to aim track out to the right on the line. There is plenty of room to run wide, but if you let the car settle and be patient, there is plenty of time to straddle to curbing on the right. Too many people try to turn left there too early. You may also consider doing a few laps where you focus only on the min speed and don’t worry about the uphill portion. Just work on trusting that you can make the turn at 60 mph. Look at the Miata cars. If they can carry that speed, so can you. The same thing happens at T19. People tend to rush the turn rather than carrying speed and aiming at the parking lot on the right. As you pass the corner the car settles and gets the grip to stay on track. Too many people over slow because they are trying to make the turn with the low grip that is just past the apex. But there is better grip waiting if you wait for it. COTA is classic this way. If you are patient the camber and track is there to reward you. If you don’t trust yourself or the track, you will overslow and turn early.

[@raymort3]

@ - I have my VBOX data and Cameron’s on our 2:14 and 2:15 runs. I was trying to bank a lap on mine and the car was hopping a lot. My optimum time over two laps was a low 2:15. I could have done a 2:14 in the next session if Ferris didn’t cause the yellow. T2-T3, T8-9, T13, T16, and T19 is where the time is.

[@ItsTrackTime]

I would love to see the native VBOX lap videos of you and Cameron. The KZbin versions are too course to see what is really going on frame by frame.

[@dra911]

Very informative video. Those dampers help a tonne and really settle the car over the curbs! So cool to have the tools to analyse the lap like and compare to the pros. Everything I read about aero mods suggests it takes some time for the driver to gain confidence in using it, so I reckon you'll shave some more time off yet eventually.

[@ItsTrackTime]

Glad to hear you found the video helpful! You’re absolutely right-the MCS dampers made an immediate difference for me, but building trust in the aero and learning to fully exploit it will take time. It’s all part of the fun of tackling a new learning curve!

[@G2_JP48]

Just a thought, Skip Barber 3 day racing course had us compromise 7 just a tad (notice you are pretty track left), since its a slower speed corner and rather than track out all the way right into turn 8, track middle and then turn in to the apex and hug the curve uphill ( i felt like that let me accelerate just a bit up the hill) and then full throttle all the way to 11 once you get over that little hump at the top of the hill. You can probably track out a bit more at turn 11 and straddle the exit curb carrying more speed through the corner and earlier on throttle. You have soo much more tarmac at turn 12, not sure if you actually care about track limits, but so many past the curb to that extra tarmac.

[@ItsTrackTime]

Thanks for the tips! I have always moved to the far right leaving T7 but have seen people taking the middle line you are suggesting. I'll have to study that a bit more. T11 - I also try to use all of the track surface that I can including all of the green painted surface which T11 has plenty of but try to keep one tire still in contact with the white stripe.

[@Marcuswu7]

Does the suspension mods help with preventing the strut tower failures that is known to occur on the cayman gt4 models?

[@ItsTrackTime]

The MCS dampers would soften the shock transmitted into the towers which should reduce the risk of a failure.

[@Marcuswu7]

@@ItsTrackTimethank you!

[@TheRacingDoc1]

Very nice! You picked up quite a bit of time but more importantly, the car’s drivability also improved. Would be interesting to see what Randy would run with the modified car.

[@ItsTrackTime]

Thanks, I'm also looking forward to getting Randy back in the modified car with cooler weather and a new set of R7s!

[@TheRacingDoc1]

@ I just ordered a GT4 RS. Going into production now. How much did the entire Dundon package cost? I almost did the Manthey package through the dealer and then stumbled on your video

[@ItsTrackTime]

Awesome, you’re going to love it! The Dundon package is significantly more affordable than the Manthey package. In fact, you can get the suspension, aero, and a complete header-back exhaust system for less than the cost of the Manthey package. I’d recommend giving them a call to go over the numbers.

[@hernanorihuela3230]

Great vid

[@ItsTrackTime]

Thanks!

[@jb6969ish]

Love it! Hey that's me in the back!😅💚

[@ItsTrackTime]

Thank you! Which car are you in?

[@jb6969ish]

The green RS in your thumbnail ​@@ItsTrackTime

[@ItsTrackTime]

Hey Jonathan! - How have you been? That was an awesome session, and I’m thinking it’ll be the highlight of my next video! I love Lizard Green-I’ve tried twice to snag a Gelbgrün car but came up short both times. One of these days, I’ll win the PTS lottery and finally get my Gelbgrün dream car. Any plans to come back to COTA soon?

[@jb6969ish]

That was a fun session for sure! Trying to keep up with you and Mat was a blast. Can't wait to see the video. Hopefully EJ and I can come back later next year. 🏁

[@jb6969ish]

Also, I have video of you when I was trying to keep up. It's about half way through. kzbin.info/www/bejne/l3_MmINslJ6Gh8ksi=1VQ0fXOndj2vBKQ_

[@Mac-c6h]

Another great video

[@ItsTrackTime]

I appreciate that, thanks for watching!

[@TRZ0612]

Good stuff. I have the MCS 2-way's on my 718 GT4. I love them, my only regret is not springing for the 3-ways, but the 2-ways do pretty damn good on their own, just probably not quite as smoothly as the 3-ways would. What canister pressures and rebound settings did you end up at?

[@ItsTrackTime]

Thanks! MCS is the way to go. Makes a huge improvement in the car's stability on track. My canister pressures are currently set to 175psi. Rebound - Front 10, Rear 9.

[@TRZ0612]

@ you are pretty close to my settings. I know we can’t compare compression since you have both low speed and high speed , but I’m at 190 canister pressure and 10/10 C & R on all 4 corners. I run the Goodyear SC3 tires for street use

[@ItsTrackTime]

Which tracks do you run one? Many of these settings are track specific.

[@TRZ0612]

@@ItsTrackTime I don’t really track mine as it’s my daily , just canyon and mountain roads

[@ItsTrackTime]

Ah, I'm going to try to do that with a Spyder RS which has a considerably softer suspension.

[@elcentinela3434]

Great video 👏👏

[@ItsTrackTime]

Thanks, glad you enjoyed it!

[@DanielHernandezBC]

This is awesome man, nice video. On the last part though, I think you are seeing it "flat" because the difference on the last part of the track is too big. Bigger than our brains want it to be.

[@ItsTrackTime]

Thanks for watching and helping analyze the data! That is a very good point! The Y-axis is getting very large due to the pad failure so it's making the esses look flatter than they really are in the time slip plot. Well at least I felt good about it for a couple weeks. ;-)

[@warrenlucier5796]

Seems money was well spent and your closing the gap.

[@ItsTrackTime]

So far, so good! The best part is having a fresh learning curve to tackle-a challenge every amateur driver welcomes.

[@yanal0611]

Great video. What camera are you using for your interior onboard video?

[@ItsTrackTime]

Thanks! - GoPro Hero12 Black facing forward, GoPro Max for side view.

[@shawnshekari]

When hoping those curbs do you think the drive shaft is hitting that through axle pipe? I assume you'll be taking a look there at some point.

[@ItsTrackTime]

Felix has the car right now, post axle boot replacement, and is looking it over. I'll report back with his findings...

[@ItsTrackTime]

Felix got back to me today and didn’t find any axle rub, just a couple of spots where the paint was nicked from the suspension going to full droop while the car was on the lift. However, he did notice a new tire rub spot with the 305s and all the Dundon components, so he’s looking into it. We might need to make some adjustments with all the new components in place.

[@DundonMotorsports]

@@ItsTrackTime Bump stops and packers available if you need them...

[@sgpasian]

Much more complient suspension, the way to go. Good job on your driving! If I may, try a bit faster hands on slow corners entry. And turn 2, just go for it (although not much time to gain there); the car will understeer (worst case you bail out). And I bet that pretty soon you'll want to dial off some of the understeer (keep some though). Cheers.

[@ItsTrackTime]

Everyone tells me I just need to commit on T2 and everything will work out but I've had the tail break loose on T19 before and I was a goner. After that my brain never assumes the car will just push. With the added downforce I could really feel the tremendous pressure on the sidewalls as they scrubbed sideway on T2. When I felt that I immediately went into maintenance throttle but Ted told me to just commit and add more throttle, thereby producing more downforce, and the car will just hunker down more and settle. Very counterintuitive!

[@sgpasian]

Well, T19 is way more complex than T2; there you have to brake, manage the front the end, deal with the curb apex and the downhill exit. T2 the car is already balanced through out. Now, with your aero kit, based on Ted’s lap, the car understeer (a good bunch) at the limit over there. Build up to it, a bit more each time. And to be honest, you’re already fast enough to generate the needed downforce. Look far, and light hands. Worst case, open the steering wheel… or, most likely, easy off the throttle to minimize the understeer. Cheers.

[@ItsTrackTime]

You’re inspiring me to stay on the throttle through T2! What you said makes perfect sense- with the added downforce, I’ve got no excuses for not attacking this corner. Thanks for the motivating and practical pep talk!

[@Antony_Herrera]

Hi, congratulations on your GT4 RS and using it as it was built for. We also have a GT4 RS, and you can take a look at it at Castro Oasis KZbin channel. Do you have a video or a list of all the mods that you have done to your car?

[@ItsTrackTime]

It would be a shame to own a 4RS and not take it to the track! Yes, look at my playlists - You'll find all of my mod videos there.

[@Michael-Masi-911]

Considering all the mods you have done, if uou could go back in time, would it have been better/cheaper to start with a GT4 rather than the GT4 RS?

[@ItsTrackTime]

I worked my way through several Caymans before finally landing on the GT4 RS, and I have to say, the engine in the 4RS is absolutely incredible-worth every penny. If you're a fan of mid-engine cars, the 4RS feels like the pinnacle of the Porsche lineup-unless, of course, you’re in a position to track a 918. As for mods, I’m really happy with the choices I made. The only thing I might have done differently is to stage the upgrades-starting with the MCS suspension, driving it for a while, and then adding the aero. By doing everything at once, it’s hard to isolate their individual impacts in the data.

[@Michael-Masi-911]

@@ItsTrackTime I was considering taking a GT4 and doing the same mods along with Deman 4.5L engine upgrade (~$30k). Any thoughts?

[@ItsTrackTime]

For the track you really want a dry-sump engine - the GT4 is a wet-sump, the GT4 RS is a dry-sump. For the street the Deman 4.5L is fine but on the track it might not hold up. Is there any long term data on how these modified engines hold up with heavy track use?

[@Michael-Masi-911]

​@@ItsTrackTimeahh. Yes dry vs. wet is going to be a huge difference. I now wonder to myself if that's part of what Deman do for $30k, if not then I'll just have to pay $35k over sticket and get about ordering one ASAP.

[@Michael-Masi-911]

@@ItsTrackTime just confirmed that for $30k Deman don't even convert the engine to dry sump. I see now there is no replacement for a GT4 RS, other than a GT4 RS Manthey maybe.

[@tammerfarid]

What brake pads are you running?

[@ItsTrackTime]

Ferodo DS3.12

[@ItsTrackTime]

But I'm going to move back to my old favorite, Race Technologies RE10, for my next track weekend.

[@mikewilson3615]

@@ItsTrackTime Great video! I really appreciate how you break down the process in a logical way. May I ask why you are changing to RE10's? I'm running DS1.11 front/back on my GT4 and was thinking about changing to DS3.12 on the front to improve car rotation. (I'm using Girodisc rotors).

[@ItsTrackTime]

Thanks! I'm also on Girodisc rotors - great product! The DS3.12 pads have great bite, don't fade, and don't squeal when cold but the down side is they wear very quickly. I only get two track weekends out of them. RE10's also have great bite and don't fade but the big plus is they wear much better. I'm interesting in seeing how they hold up on the 4RS. The downside is they squeal when cold so street driving is kind of miserable.

[@Michael-Masi-911]

@@ItsTrackTime if you didn't care about the noise at all, IE: 100% dedicated track car, which pads would you choose? Is there anything better than RE10?

[@frederickcook87]

Higher top end with added downforce… these things usually don’t go together

[@ItsTrackTime]

There is a header + exhaust change as well which produced +30 hp. I think what we're seeing here is the added hp compensated for the additional drag.

[@VK6AB-]

Chase seat time and coaching not mods. When you can drive a good friction circle is the time to do mods. 😀

[@ItsTrackTime]

Any mod that makes a car more predictable and less unforgiving is a win in my book. Coaches are invaluable, but they can’t fix a car’s bad habits-they can only teach you how to manage them.

[@VK6AB-]

@@ItsTrackTime If you're not driving to the limit of grip you don't know if the problem is your driving or the car. When you can reliably and routinely extract maximum grip you then will better understand what needs to be "fixed" on the car. Do you know what your friction circle looks like, take the data from your RS and extract it in the PTA app, upload the CSV/txt file to a computer and in excel plot lat g Vs lin g. Stacked logs in PTA are fine but the "tell" is the friction circle.

[@ItsTrackTime]

I had an AIM Solo2 in my car during these sessions, and I noticed it can generate a friction circle using its X/Y plotting feature. Your enthusiasm for this technique has definitely piqued my interest. It seems like a interesting way to compare drivers in the same car and evaluate how close each one gets to maximizing the car's limits

[@VK6AB-]

@@ItsTrackTime Correct, also as your tyres drop off, if you're a good driver, your friction circle becomes smaller but still retains its donut shape (e.g. always using the grip available). Nearly all amateur drivers are off on corner entry to some degree - because they are trying to balance several things e.g. finish of threshold braking and transition to trail braking whilst maintaining turn in at a rate sufficient to keep speed up whilst extracting maximum grip. A good friction curve reflects high levels of precision and accuracy e.g. you want to be on the ideal race line, hit all your marks at the maximum speed possible without getting into understeer or oversteer. Its the subtle stuff that additively makes you both quicker and smoother. Another good challenge is trying to consistently hit a time, one a couple of 10ths slower than your PB again, accuracy and precision - it becomes a real challenge and thats part of the fun and can fun and frustrating at the same time. The hardest person to beat is yourself and therein is the challenge. :)