America's Oldest Neighborhood is Problematic

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Elfreth's Alley is an interesting tourist spot in Philly, but also a frustrating location with nimby's blocking a new park leaving them with an empty lot.
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Timestamps:
0:00 Intro
0:31 What is Elfreth's Alley?
1:34 Wallet ad
2:19 The Problems with Elfreth's Alley
3:54 "Historic Preservation"
5:47 Another Example in Philly
6:47 My Other Favorite Street
7:26 Outro
Extra Articles:
whyy.org/articles/philadelphi...
www.change.org/p/councilman-m...
www.phillyvoice.com/st-lauren...

[@alanthefisher]

Check out Ekster Wallets here: partner.ekster.com/alanthefisher And don't forget to use my code *URBANIST* at checkout for up to 55% off

[@Maebbie]

nah

[@rogink]

Esker?

[@ThunderTheBlackShadowKitty]

No, all sponsors are scams. Capitalism is bad. Steal from the rich, raid warehouses.

[@catgirltransit]

bruhhhhh, its only 55 off somthings, if you actually want the wallet then its fucking 3 dollars off

[@DocVandy1999]

Cleveland made lake erie into a frikking airport

[@nearby_emu4181]

American engineers try not to put a highway through neighborhoods challenge.

[@malakibaskerville2190]

(IMPOSSIBLE)

[@SpeedbirdFan]

completely impossible, this is a crime against Robert Moses

[@GegoXaren]

((FAILED))

[@HipsterShiningArmor]

whats amazing is somehow it keeps happening, they're currently planning to widen I-35 through downtown Austin. its like a weird addiction of some kind

[@weylinwest9505]

​@@HipsterShiningArmorReject living spaces, become a concrete wasteland.

[@grysqrl]

"Any serious world-class city does not allocate its waterfront land for ugly highway infrastructure." Someone, please tell Chicago.

[@davidty2006]

Yeah rip up that highway and replace it with a 4 lane road along the waterfront. Oh and a massive pedestrainised area. Whilst ya at it slap a tram line for good measure.

[@BnaBreaker]

LSD is a problem, but at least Chicago still has a useable waterfront... nearly twenty miles of uninterrupted park land featuring beaches, bike paths etc.

[@larrys4618]

​@@BnaBreakerit could be much worse. It could be The Gardener Expressway (Toronto)

[@123goldenlily]

​@@BnaBreakerLSD? Like drugs?

[@tatoom40]

@@123goldenlily Lake Shore Drive

[@will_from_pa]

When you’re so pro “historical preservation” that you’d rather let a beautiful 150 year old structure get torn down and replaced with an apartment building. We’ve come full circle

[@mitchellb4551]

exactly they didn't actually want the building preserved they just didn't want to live next to "apartment people"

[@TemplarOnHigh]

A hysterical society is there to complain, not compromise.

[@henrylivingstone2971]

That’s really sad that they’d rather uphold principle than actually preserve historical landmarks albeit in a different function than intended. Even if the church was an apartment building at least it would still exist instead of being demolished.

[@demonicwillow7339]

In a good country a historic church that needs repairing won't need to shut down and become a crappy apartment building at all.. Taxpayer money is spent to preserve history, and not to build giant useless stadiums.

[@henrylivingstone2971]

@@demonicwillow7339 I mean….to be fair most countries only protect very special buildings. A building must be of historical or aesthetic significance to reserve protection.

[@brianholmes1812]

As an archaeologist, this frustrates me to no end. The principle of Adaptive Reuse is widely accepted in academic and professional spheres, the proposed church plan being a prime example. Unfortunately nimbys love to weaponise the idea of historic preservation as freezing a building in time in order to just do the whole nimbg thing. I spoke with a man this summer when I was working on an environmental campaign (unrelated to archaeology) who told me he was fully against solar panels, hest pumps and weatherisation because he lived in a historic building. All of those things are fully accepted adaptations for making a historic building suitable for modern use, as are things like ramps and elevators for ADA compliance, or indeed completely repurposing the building, which is seen as a gold standard. Anyway I have a suspicion the man I was talking to did have central heating, electricity and air conditioning in his building, and was just using preservation as a convenient excuse for nimbyism

[@1aikane]

Archeologist are not experts in historic architecture.

[@moosesandmeese969]

It's always incredible greed and selfishness with those people

[@brianholmes1812]

@@1aikane you'd be surprised at how broad archaeology can be. Our parameters as an academic field are the study of the human past through material remains, which can include things like stone tools and pottery, human remains, or indeed buildings. We just approach it differently than an architectural historian would in that rather than studying the building itself, we look at it in terms od what in can tell us about how people lived at the time it was built. Anyway I took a few credits in historic preservation, buildings archaeology, and architectural history in college and have worked in tandem with preservation professionals in the past

[@agntdrake]

The Pantheon and the Hagia Sofia wouldn't be here today if they hadn't been repurposed into other buildings.

[@hedgehog3180]

It's really neat when this happens within academia itself. University buildings and labs can very quickly become outdated but often they then just get remodeled so other departments can use them. You can find a ton of historical labs which became too old and outdated to keep being labs but then were handed over the literature or or sociology department, which don't need modern state of the art labs and really just need a building to reside in. It's cool because it keeps these often famous and very important labs alive, like the ones Louis Pasteur worked in, and not just that it keeps them within the academic sphere so they remain centers of research and are still being used for something close to their original function. And if you happen to be interested in the history of science you can easily go visit these places since they're usually public and not privately owned, and personally I think the history of science is underrated.

[@simonmrnka3405]

"don't let perfection be the enemy of good" is a statement that is unfortunately not said enough times

[@carstarsarstenstesenn]

perfection is also impossible. it's always dangerous to pursue perfection

[@zilfondel]

That's the point

[@theonlylolking]

Okay but they were right That modernist park is evil.

[@wheeliebeast7679]

As a wheelchair user who appreciates short, steep ramps where ADA compliant ones would be impossible to fit, I highly approve this statement.

[@Scrublord30]

Ok but I really don't think asking for a more colonial style park was too much. What about the developer that was too stingy to spend a few extra bucks to put in a nicer park there. I agree with most of the points on this video but this just seems like another example of developers getting away with providing the bare minimum to the community in order to maximize profit.

[@realemmyrossum]

It's crazy how that highway completely ruins the waterfront. Idk in what world someone would vote for that to be implemented. People are crazy

[@57thorns]

These areas are the old parts of town, the first to be built. Run down slums according to the white suburbians who can't leave their plot of land without a car. Of course there were protests against these, but no one cares about the poor.

[@hedgehog3180]

The only slight defense is that water fronts in cities have not always been the prime real estate that they are today. Waterfronts used to be home for heavy industry and the waterways around cities were often extremely polluted and unpleasant. This changed starting with the introduction of containerization which meant that ports and industry didn't have to be right next to each other so cities built new container ports far away from residential areas, and the industry moved outside of cities to find cheaper land, the only exception was oil refineries. The other big change was that most cities undertook major projects to clean up their harbors, which made them actually clean enough to swim in and made waterfront property significantly more attractive. Now by the 80s both of these things were already happening so it should have been obvious that waterfront property would rise in value, Copenhagen undertook it's major harbor clean up project during this period for example and containerization had already moved away industry and harbors.

[@CosmicLimaBeans]

​@hedgehog3180 Thanks for the info. Understanding how we got here in the first place is half the battle.👍

[@Lambda_Ovine]

the summed up history kinda goes like this in most of these cases: "this highway will mostly go through black and poor neighborhoods, do you vote yes?" And the over represented affluent white demographic moving to the suburbs went, "yes, of course."

[@emprguy]

The "great" part is the road next to the highway, Delaware Ave, is a 6 lane monstrosity as well, double the highway fun!

[@machtmann2881]

Hope that someday streets like these will be so common again that they don't have to be designated as "tourist attractions"

[@Alex-cw3rz]

As someone in the UK this is literally half the streets in almost all town and city centres

[@davidty2006]

@@Alex-cw3rz York is peak though it is a tourist attraction..

[@longiusaescius2537]

@davidty2006 north English accents ❤️❤️❤️

[@5daysofcoffee]

It’s the oldest residential street in America. It could be a 7-Eleven and it would be a tourist attraction.

[@punchnazis3498]

It's a tourist attraction because of its age, not because of the design lol

[@Stargun-vj1uh]

The thing with the church is downright infuriating. I love the architecture of old churches and would personally love to live in one if I could. Knowing that a historic, beautiful, and well-built church was just falling apart then destroyed, for not being used as originally intended, is just frustrating. This should not be what we do with our history. These buildings have stood for countless years, and it takes alot to build things of the same longevity. Why is it that our American way of doing things is nothing but destruction first then stubborn preservation second? We do all in on one or the other. We can't have people living in an old church that would be renovated, but we also can't have it stay either. Same idea as why we can't go to places in anything but a car. We destroyed all the other infrastructure in most smaller towns, now are having to replace said infrastructure for so many times more expensive and more difficult to plan.

[@automation7295]

If a church had cracks and falling apart in Europe, they would repair it as most churches are preserved as landmarks. Americans always think that demolition is always the answer. When Empire State Building starts falling apart, I wouldn't be surprised if they start demolishing that famous landmark. US planners has many weird logic.

[@popcorn8153]

I wouldn't agree with this at all. Yes America went through the demo decades, but most cities will bend over backwards to save historic buildings. The people who stopped the church restoration were just fucking idiots@@automation7295

[@jonathanstensberg]

Americans refuse to use public funds to preserve religious buildings while they are still used as religious buildings. That means churches tend to get abandoned at the point they start collapsing in on themselves, making preservation as a religuos building or adaptive reuse extremely expensive.

[@jonathanstensberg]

@@OAT86 Sometimes there will be tax credits/abatements for redevelopments, but yes, adaptive reuse of a church building is primarily dependent upon there being a developer willing to take on the project. It takes a special kind of developer to do that, and the kinds of redevelopment are limited by the upfront costs of salvaging the often-derelict structure--eg, luxury rather than affordable apartments.

[@henrylivingstone2971]

⁠@@automation7295 There were proposals to knock down the Empire State Building and the Chrysler building in the 1970s and 1980s but only after the people of nyc protested were they preserved.

[@Randomstuffs261]

4:55 They unironically ended up with a more authentic style British garden by the looks of it. Fresh with dead grass and trash everywhere. Very authentic

[@glynnwright1699]

Our British garden doesn't look like that, nor do any of our neighbour's. I am sure that you can find some, but I can assure you that it is virtually impossible to have any space in England that doesn't become covered with grass unless you take continuous, active, measures to prevent it. It would have been easy, and probably less expensive, to turn the space into something like the gardens that are found behind most public houses in the UK, although the grass species that thrive on the East Coast of the USA are not the same as those in England. It could be paved, or cobbled, I am sure there any number of British preservation societies, such as SPAB, that would provide guidance.

[@GLASSMOSCOWANDBEIJING]

​@@glynnwright1699go to Walthamstow or Stratford and you will change your mind in an instant

[@heycidskyja4668]

What on earth makes you think that dead grass and trash would make for an authentic British garden?????

[@Randomstuffs261]

@@heycidskyja4668 ...being British and seeing a lot of gardens

[@benlewis4241]

It's called "rubbish" dearie

[@joecesa1013]

Yes, as a Philadelphian, it can become very very frustrating with "perfectionists" and historic neglect-until-unsalvageable groups. Thanks for calling them out.

[@FlakusCorporation]

The church story is absolutely shocking, ridiculous, and not uncommon. Here in Carson City we lost our beloved sandstone engine house as recently as 1991. One of the culprits, though not the only one, was competing Preservation interests fighting each other for it. Now nobody has it, and thirty years later, it’s still a vacant lot in the middle of prime (and historic) downtown real estate.

[@Roxor128]

Leaving land vacant is a problem. There's also an easy fix for it: a land-value tax. Make it cost money to hold onto land, giving the owners an incentive to do something useful with it or sell it to someone who will.

[@payleryder45]

People who are multi-generational residents of an established neighborhood undergoing "gentrification" due to an influx of hipsters don't want a Church mocked in this way. It's a Church, it had a purpose, reducing it to an architectural object to adorn a place antithetical to its original purpose is a moral crime.

[@Knight_Kin]

If it can't be preserved then it should be torn down as it becomes dangerous. Infrastructure does get to a point where it's beyond saving, which was the case here. Making the old building into apartments was a terrible use of an old church, if you need apartments then you need a properly designed structure. Philly really needs housing, so naturally old structures that are beyond structurally savable should be razed and reconstructed into something useful. Especially housing there is such a strong demand for it. While it could have been saved, it was not, and yes indeed it was blocked from happening but really either keep it a church or get rid of it. Don't 're use' something so inefficiently like that, what a goofy idea. I'm glad that it was properly re-developed, Philadelphia is a city that badly needs mass infrastructure redevelopment.

[@Roxor128]

@@Knight_Kin What's inefficient about refitting an old church into apartments? If it's still structurally sound, it'd take less materials to add a few walls and floors inside than to build something new.

[@kozmaz87]

Nimbyism is killing so many areas. We suffer from them everywhere.

[@williewonka6694]

Yes, God forbid that the community have any input to its own development.

[@kozmaz87]

@@williewonka6694 I hear you, but there is a nuance difference between being able to prevent change without a good reason and having an input. The problem we tend to run into is people who are unreasonable and know no compromise. The bickering then takes all the time, nothing gets built and the area becomes uninhabitable because not as much as fixing a road is possible any more because there will be some nimby who will go to great length to prevent all and any change to anything in their area.

[@popcorn8153]

had some nimby's in an area of my city protest and make signs because of a market rate apartment on a blank plot of land. They built it anyways and it is hilarious. They had signs that said no to the development but yes to affordable housing which felt contradictory. The only way you can make housing more affordable is to build more.

[@F4URGranted]

​@@popcorn8153thank you!! A real conscious!! I live in the SF Bay area, and the amount of nimbys who come out of the woodwork to preserve a completely garbage "neighborhood feel" claim. It's just unbelievable that our leaders know the only way to move forward is to ignore these people, but we don't

[@kozmaz87]

@@popcorn8153 well one is build more, but that is a capitalist fantasy. The other way that should also be used is to limit landlords' access to property. if there is someone who would live there and someone who just wants to buy to let the person who would live there should get priority.

[@MichaelSalo]

The zoom out to the urban freeway is horrifying and yet not surprising at all. I’m more surprised when we see things done right.

[@automation7295]

That's the US in a nutshell. Most cities in Europe would either build a tunnel underground or build the highway around the entire city, usually a highways cutting through the city would be a 60km/h or 70km/h expressway.

[@uomouomouomouomo]

I hate the trope of “rental housing ruining the fabric of communities”. In some of the nicest neighbourhoods in Toronto, where most single detached or semi houses have turned into duplex or triplexes, you might actually find multiplexes spread throughout ur the neighbourhood. And they’re often times some of the nicest buildings in the area. It is unbelievable that there’s such a stark contrast in what we’re allowing to be restricted in various neighbourhoods across the same city here. Great video as always, btw. Keep up the good work! You’re making super accessible work that I can share with people that are not urbanists, which is important! Thanks

[@mrvwbug4423]

Well it is a balancing act of addressing housing supply issues, while also not promoting out of control gentrification and the suburbs turning into slums for those displaced by gentrification. Because that never happens *eyes NYC with sarcasm*

[@dontgetlost4078]

"I have seen a city of renters and it's ugly [...] Some people might take me for a NIMBY, but at least, I care for my neighborhood." -A Toronto NIMBY, frequently quoted by Oh! The Urbanity!

[@steemlenn8797]

@@dontgetlost4078 I have seen a city of house owners and it was ugly!

[@cinnanyan]

I'm really glad Interstate 95 was routed around Baltimore despite Maryland's enthusiasm for highway building, it's crazy to have a road that big going through a historic part of a city like that

[@cjoutdoors1991]

I feel the same way about both DC and Baltimore. They almost built a bunch of highways through DC in the early postwar decades, but they decided to just build the beltway and one forked interstate through the city, and now both DC and Baltimore have nice waterfronts that people can enjoy.

[@payleryder45]

The only thing worse than a highway through a tight, historical part of a city is routing the same traffic through that tight, historical part of the city. Baltimore is not a great example of a city which has a bright future - the fact that business and industry can easily route around it is probably part of Baltimore's problem. Remember as well that in Philadelphia 1-95 is perpendicular to a series of bridges over the Delaware River, so there was always going to be elevated highways in the eyeline all the way up and down the river.

[@bobainsworth5057]

It's amazing to me that in 2023 the name of Robert Moses still comes up when you talk about bad planning but to hear it mentioned in Philadelphia when he did all his damage in NYC is proof to me just how bad he was to NYC.

[@Redhand1949]

Robert J. Caro's bio of Moses assures "The Power Broker" will live in infamy forever.

[@diego001]

It is extra terrible also that contemporary rich NIMBYs have weaponized Jane Jacobs’s viewpoints to do something she never wanted to do: encase neighborhoods in amber to increase property values for the rich.

[@rashakor]

Robert Moses invented building genocide!

[@jetfan925]

In Philly's case, it's Edward Bacon (father of Kevin Bacon and grandfather of Sosie Bacon).

[@diego001]

@@jetfan925 Today I learned!

[@SkeetRadar]

I can't believe they demolished that church to do exactly what they were so apposed to. they could've had new apartments and the same facade, but they just couldn't bare the idea of change. it's shameful.

[@payleryder45]

The Church facade is not to be an adornment for an apartment building full of residents whose lives are a mockery of what the Church stood for in the first place. This isn't hard.

[@Knight_Kin]

Lol redeveloping the church into apartments would have been a silly idea, especially given it was structurally unsound at the point it was proposed. Either save the building, keep it a church, or demolish it. These half baked ideas are simply that. Last thing that city needs is more rotting infrastructure and inefficient land use.

[@collectivelyimprovingtrans2460]

Transit fan here. When I go to Philadelphia, I like to take whatever transit is available to where I want to go (unless it’s a bus) I walked along narrow streets, saw beautiful neighborhoods, not everywhere was touristy, and I saw South Street

[@kevinconrad6156]

Spent a couple nights in Philly at the beginning of October and used up almost 21 ride (I think) transit card, mostly on busses. Arrived on the Acela from DC. Had a great time. I lived in Philly in the 80's during my car less years.

[@petelobl]

Bus out to Gladwyne is nice!

[@counterfit5]

The buses in Philly are pretty handy, actually. Sure helped me get back to the Cambria at Broad/Locust from Brauhaus Shmitz after I had too much of everything.

[@atn_holdings]

I used to think that people who drive down St-Paul in Old Montreal are wretched psychopaths but nothing could prepare me for this

[@cieldunord4208]

It's nonsense to allow them on these old narrow streets. Hopefully next summer, St-Paul will be a much nicer experience without the cars..

[@serbansaredwood]

So happy the Vieux-Port is becoming pedestrianized

[@JasmineAnneWhite]

ugh, i hate that balding patch of grass! I'm super sad to hear it could have been something beautiful and functional that i would have actually benefitted from :/

[@the.abhiram.r]

once these nimby's run out of blood pressure pills, some change can happen

[@zachz96]

I absolutely hate seeing repairable buildings getting torn down just to be replaced. It's bad for the environment.

[@Kaigotitright]

Historic preservation is a tricky topic because it varies entirely by state and locality. Boston’s historic commission has done a good job at not adhering to the “perfectionist” mindset. Granted, if the city used Philly standards, nothing would ever get built and half of the stores wouldn’t even be able to operate. I mean, boston has an old state house primarily used as a subway station and a chipotle in a building constructed in the 1700s (both next to each other). Additionally, all the abandoned churches have been, or are, in the process of being turned into housing with open arms to preserve their history. I’ve worked on one before in its very early stages, and now I believe it’s going to become fully affordable housing. I think cities could learn a lot of how boston sees historic preservation because even when the building is compromised, the main rule is that you find a means of keeping the facade & the interiors can be gutted.

[@justinleemiller]

I agree. That park design is ugly. Better off as an empty lot

[@vitaliyzakharov6708]

Im from Boston and Im little cranky since as a private owner and restorer I get zero help from the city(and dont get me started on how much architecture and historic interiors are destroyed due to lead and asbestos regulations), but its ok to spend tons of money on unprofitable low income tenants to live in a preserved church building. I support affordable housing but that feels like someone is being taken for a ride there(probably taxpayers)

[@hedgehog3180]

@@vitaliyzakharov6708 Was your goal just to make everyone hate you with that comment or what?

[@Kaigotitright]

@@vitaliyzakharov6708 dude…. You’re just a miserable property owner and probably the reason that city is so unaffordable. And on top of that a lot of us grew up low income in and around boston and turned out great. I’m sorry you just suck as a human being. And in regards to safety, it’s necessary with how much asbestos those buildings do in fact carry.

[@vitaliyzakharov6708]

@@hedgehog3180 i doubt you have amy first hand knowledge or experience with historic preservation or dealing with the local government on such topics, but of course you care very much about those “less fortunate” people. If you did you would not “hate” my stance

[@RedShocktrooperRST]

"The food establishment equivalent of 2fort" has me going.

[@kaitlyn__L]

I was getting sad about the old church building and then you got to the end and I’m actually angry. NIMBYing a change of use until the building you wanted to preserve is gone is just… incredible.

[@payleryder45]

The people who used to be parishioners in that Church didn't want blue haired freaks living in it to mock their beliefs.

[@Megabean]

I lived in the historic area in my city Fake London.Its called Wortley and I was in love with it, my old house even housed a young Walt Disney for a short period. But as a renter over time it so expensive, like originally I was spending 800$ for a 1 bedroom, then I moved to a 2 bedroom for 1800$ in 2019. In July my landlord used a loophole to get rid of me and the apartment is on the market for $2600 now. The neighbourhood was always a "nice" neighbourhood but apparently even nice and safe places can get gentrified.

[@57thorns]

The problem is that you can't build any more of those, and for many people these are great places to live, so there is a huge demand, and the prices will follow. The good thing about this is that the spaces at least will be preserved, even if they might end up walled off oasis in a dystopian future.

[@ryanmcmahon6043]

I live in Philly and went on a Free walking tour of this street a few weeks ago. The guide was equally as frustrated about the complications of historic preservation but she was quite funny about it. It helped my feel less insane lol

[@EmmaMaySeven]

I would have liked to see what the alternative Elfreth's Alley park might look like. The proposed park, with concrete pavements and a large metal sunshade, definitely doesn't fit well with brick and cobble. It's a whole different set of materials and overall style. Also, I'm also curious as to the difference in costs and who would have borne that extra cost. Too often we see developers skimp out instead of building the right thing. Forcing the site to remain undeveloped might be the right tactic, as otherwise the developers would simply say "we built the park" and nothing would happen for decades.

[@laurencefraser]

of course, you're somewhat assuming that 'nothing would happen for decades' part is in any way changed by this outcome.

[@AlexanderRoederer]

The empty lot is going to continue to not be developed for decades. This happens constantly in Philly. NIMBYs refuse until the people trying to make the improvement give up, and what's left is a trash-filled lot. People like it because it depresses their property values which keeps their property taxes low. In this case, the developer of the adjacent parcel was essentially offering a goodwill boon in redoing the park for a certain cost. By demanding an English-style garden with no one willing to pay for the plantings and long term maintenance that such a garden would demand (including the neighborhood historic district, you will notice, which also didn't want to front the money for the park) means they're essentially demanding something with no leverage behind the demand. The developer could (and did!) just choose to do nothing to the lot, meaning instead of getting something, they got nothing. Anyway, the whole thing is ridiculous, because this part of the city was working class/industrial since the city was founded up through the 70s; there would never have been an "English style garden" (aka a very expensive manicured garden accessible only to the upper class) in this part of the city on a random corner. What should really be there are more row houses, but you can bet the neighborhood would refuse that too.

[@SpeedbirdFan]

At least it isn't single family housing...

[@moosesandmeese969]

It's single family row houses so only marginally better. Philadelphia needs way more apartment buildings like the brownstone walkups on pine st

[@SpeedbirdFan]

Oof, thought it was at least multi-family housing.

[@moosesandmeese969]

@@SpeedbirdFan There's multi-family housing on the other streets in old city, but a lot of the rest of Philadelphia is lacking

[@davidty2006]

@@moosesandmeese969 Row/Terraced housing is ALOT better than single family/detached. You can cram alot more into the same space whilst still keeping a good amount of comfort. Theres a reason why in europe they were spammed all over.

[@moosesandmeese969]

@@davidty2006 Single family row houses significantly reduce the amount of housing that can exist, and especially when housing prices are a huge problem they aren't desirable. A walkup apartment on an average Philadelphia lot can reasonably hold 3-6 units, and much more on bigger lots. So a street of apartment buildings can hold anywhere between 3 to 10 times the amount of housing that a street of row houses can. That's not to say existing row houses should be torn down but that all the vacant lots and parking lots in Phila, which there are MANY, should be used for multifamily housing, not row houses. I have no idea what you're referring to but I'm guessing it's the period from the 1950s onward when a lot of row house suburbs were built, which is legit just suburban sprawl albeit on a lesser scale than American suburbs. Those neighborhoods are often the least walkable and transit accessible while also being generally expensive because of the constraint on supply.

[@kiramoth2766]

I guess a lot of historic preservationism in the US are traumatized by centuries old, beautiful neighborhoods being turned into lifeless car centric hell, and I do get that. So they swing back in the other direction and become complete nimbys with no nuance. We can make modern changes to cities that aren't car centric! A new parc is usually a good thing! We have that conversation constantly in old european cities. Yes the architectural patrimony should be conserved when relevant, but what are the limits of urban conservatism, who does it serve to conserve the "identity of a neighborhood", when is it relevant to bring that up? It's not like there aren't often good solutions that both preserves identity of neighborhoods and provides housing and a good urban experience for people.

[@eCitaroFan]

The Saint Laurentius church story hits home for me because there's various similar stories in my city of Providence with a few churches and synagogues that have been abandoned for years partially because the owners won't let anyone buy/restore them unless they intend to use it for religious purposes. Yes, it's not as extreme as the Saint Laurentius church story but it could end up like that in a few more decades of structural neglect and decay

[@davidty2006]

I don't get why conversions won't be accepted.. I get conversion into an apartment building would be a bit much for a church. but a museum, cafe or public local community space are pretty simple conversions that give the building a new use whilst keeping it mostly original. Heck christ church on church street that was built in the 1840's-1860's was converted into an art galley with cafe and others have just been kept in some kind of use or opened up to the public.

[@57thorns]

It will all end the same way. The buildings will fall in disrepair and be lost to history.

[@simonpratt301]

Same thing happens here in the UK. The church my mother went to hen I was younger was a listed building. When the church could not afford to keep it they sold it to a developer. Planning and opposition kept the building in limbo for nearly a decade until the roof collapsed through neglect and the whole thing had to be pulled down.

[@davidty2006]

@@simonpratt301 Odd normally the place is delibrately set on fire by an arsonist. Normally part of a scheme that is getting more common...

[@davidty2006]

@@57thorns Some buildings say otherwise. They built things back then alot better than today.

[@LucasSilva-sc5vk]

These problems regarding historical preservation are a huge problem in Brazilian cities, where city centers full of incredible old buildings get abandoned because of the cost of repairing them and extensive requirements to repurpose these buildings, although things have been improving slowly.

[@renzibenzi]

That 2fort joke definitely caught me off guard in the intro 😅

[@L4teSh1ft]

I did some historic preservation work, and on one of the days a leader came in to give us a break/class on historic preservation techniques. It was disappointing to hear him talk so much about how to use historic preservation as a tool to stop development in a neighborhood. I like working on old things so they can continue to be useful, not to prevent more people from using it or the surrounding area.

[@MateoQuixote]

The church thing is so sad and a great example of historic preservationists getting it wrong. Here in Los Angeles, in downtown there's an Apple Store that took residence in a historic theatre. The theatre is gorgeous and was built in the early 1900s (that's old for us out here) but hadn't been in operation since the 80s (maybe? Maybe 70s?) and has been left to sit and rot all this time. Apple bought it, did all the construction to fix it while maintaining it's original beauty and now there's an Apple Store inside. It's majority celebrated but there's a small group who are upset and say it's some corporate blah blah nonsense Apple had no right to it etc. I think it's amazing!!! Not only did they fix it up but now anyone can walk in and enjoy this beautiful architecture! I say more of this!!!

[@laurencefraser]

Personally, I'd argue that the Apple store itself is a blight by way of being an Apple store, and there are probably inumeral better things that could be there... but that's a rather different matter from the preservation (or lack there of) of the building, and I"m not sure how anyone sees the predictable alternatives (other than maybe a different owner/tenent doing the same thing, which, again, is not a Preservation issue) is any better.

[@MateoQuixote]

@@laurencefraser i disagree! And the church is a great example of that! The theatre has been sitting completely empty, rotting in plain sight. Had apple not come it would probably slated for demolition within the next decade. No other company not entity has expressed interest in the building. Apple saved it plain and simple. I don’t think there’s much to argue here. Either apple saves it or it get tore down

[@timeslip8246]

Here's a good plan. Here's how it will benefit the community both personally, aesthetically and financially. 5 year later and a lawsuit because we can't agree on the color of the "brick" insert complaint. How about a stripmall/suburb/self-storage? HECK YAAAA!

[@iTzDritte]

7:10 I look forward to your video showing off your favorite locations in Philly. Quince street looks downright pleasant 😊

[@queerbanist]

Great exploration of a nuanced topic. Historic preservation is a tool that can be used just as much as it can be abused. It dampens the idea altogether when it simply becomes a means for rich people to maintain their status quo bias and sense of almighty control.

[@elizabethdavis1696]

7:26 that’s good idea for a video who Robert Moses was and the damage he did

[@whyamiwhat]

fascinating that a street that look the same as half of every city center in the uk is a tourist attraction lmao

[@user-op8fg3ny3j]

Exactly what I was going to say. America has been infected by suburban homes

[@Alex-cw3rz]

I was thinking the same, I live in a converted barn that is older than that street and a few minute walk away is a manor house from the 12th century.

[@wolfythewolf4457]

So people tend to get this confused for some reason, but it's a tourist attraction because it's the oldest residential street in the united states, not because it looks cute. I mean Quince street looks nicer, and that's not a tourist attraction.

[@railroadforest30]

It still looks nice tho

[@ryanmcmahon6043]

It's because America is a new country

[@Xeonerable]

Wow that apartment developer even agreed to put a nice little park there but I wasn't OLE ENGLISH enough for the "historic nimby's." Now it just languishes away in nothingness that looks worse for the street than the actual proposed park.

[@hellodarknessmyoldfriend3996]

Wake up feeling TUFF ALAN FISHER VIDEO DAY IS SAVED

[@xxfgsdfgadgsgsrgfdsg]

That new apartment building looks horrible. No wonder people got upset.

[@IndependenceCityMotoring]

I agree the English style garden is the best design for the park/entrance to the alley. And it doesn't necessarily have to be more expensive than the other designs. Also, that's not an excuse to build nothing at all.

[@peter_kelly]

I'd argue that the Vine Street Expressway is almost worse than I95.

[@navi5432]

I see it in my community too, NIMBYism masquerading as caring for historic or environmental issues so much so that it's impossible to build anything.

[@i-Sparki]

As much as I hate freeways plowing through neighborhoods and along shorelines, I do understand why it happens and why people let it happen. NYC is a good example. Manhattan has the FDR and the West Side Highway. Back when both were built, each waterfront they displaced was mostly industry and being on the water wasn't seen as a luxury but a detriment to one's health - the Hudson and East River were not exactly clean nor stunning to look at. Those with means want to see Manhattan, not Weehawken, the Bronx, Brooklyn and Queens. Add in brutal winter winds coming off both and a shore full of buildings and parks wasn't really anyone's priority at the time. Nowadays, Battery Park City is a good show that one can place neighborhoods along the shore just fine and I do wish there was more but so long as the piers all remain along the West Side Highway, that's not happening. Plus, it'd be in the style of Hudson Yards anyways and that's just not helping anyone if that happened. Yes, perfection is the enemy but uh, Hudson Yards is anything but good either. Least they could do is thin the West Side Highway from 6 to 4 lanes and same with the FDR. Make it less appealing to drive along both for starters.

[@robertbangkok]

Yes Quince Street! I was privileged to live there while attending grad school. Thanks Phil!

[@maryland7586]

As a future Historic Preservationist, there's many departments that do better than this. The key difference is that they're run by trained HPPists and not Nimbys using it as a front to prevent development What proved it to me was how they didn't even bother petitioning for soundproofing after I-95 was built (or even trying to prevent it from being put up for blatantly ruining the atmosphere), they let the city DOT do it. Noise is one of the biggest things most sane HPP departments try to curb

[@gwenshapiro6251]

If you’re gonna talk about greater Philly area nimbys you can’t ignore the mainline suburbs. Saying this as a Lower Merion resident.

[@moosesandmeese969]

There's nimbys inside Philadelphia too, lots of them, especially in the suburban parts like the assholes around spruce hill who routinely block affordable housing developments in the nearby neighborhoods

[@IndependenceCityMotoring]

BORING.

[@IndependenceCityMotoring]

"Affordable housing" is socialist BS and usually accompanied by HORRID designs.@@moosesandmeese969

[@cmattsun]

Another detail regarding the Saint Laurentius church preservation, was that a huge part of the "Save St. Laurentius" group refused to accept an apartment for the most NIMBY reason of all: they didn't want their parking occupied by more residents that the proposed apartment building would bring. Now...there are even more units coming in, so the bright side is some NIMBY tears.

[@TheRuralUrbanist]

In my early days as an Urbanist, I definitely was tricked a few times by historical societies claiming to want seemingly Urbanist goals, like the preservation of historic mixed use/missing middle structure, while at the same time blocking projects that would lower housing costs, rebuild density, or increase walk ability. Happily, I found the way but it's frustrating to see this outside of my own local bubble... Also, wtf, how did I95 bulldoze that part of phili so late in the game?

[@davidty2006]

Seems to vary. Some places are more open to conversions than others.

[@TheRuralUrbanist]

@@davidty2006 yeah, I've even seen the same in several towns. Portsmouth NH will allow changes while also preserving, but Newburyport does not do this so well.

[@davidty2006]

@@TheRuralUrbanist Here in britain theres still quite a few buildings rotting... And more recently being set on fire and demolished afterwards (very sus) though in my town a former 1800's chapel turned nightclub is being restored into a hotel even after being on fire twice... Seriously having the roof and insides falling apart isn't a reason to not restore..

[@trashrabbit69]

Another point about historic preservation is that it's not just about preserving an aesthetic, its preserving a function. Much of the classic car-dependent suburban layouts we think of especially on the coasts were developed in the 1960s, almost nearing their time that can technically fall under preservation. But are you _really_ going to want Houstons stroad filled low density hellscape preserved, or whats left of the Downtown which is still relatively livable without a car? People are definitely going to see more value in the latter, which makes NIMBYism so destructive to the social fabric of our urban (and rural) environments. It prevents us from being able to use the best we have, to the best ability.

[@MikhailKutzow]

A really great video. I think that sometimes urbanism does get too obsessed with the "perfect" - often warping back into their own form of NIMBY-ism.

[@eechauch5522]

Yeah, we have similar problems with historical preservation gatekeeping here in Germany. Don’t get me wrong historical preservation is very important, but if it means a place can’t function properly it isn’t doing its job correctly. The plaza in front of the Munich opera is an ugly gray mess with the entrance to an underground parking garage taking up way too much space. About a year ago the city proposed planting local heat resistant shrubs and plants too make it a lot more inviting and cooler in summer, which looked amazing. Well it didn’t happen because the historic preservation guy claimed it would be against the original architects vision of an Italian plaza in front of his building. I’m sure the architect envisioned his „plaza“ to have a parking garage instead of the plants during a time where summer gets hotter every year… They did actually come to an agreement of some boring grass patches instead which will do nothing for the local climate and need constant watering. So why is that plan acceptable? Because there is some never built 1800 plan to do it like this. Why we can’t build it to a better never built 2022 plan instead is beyond me, it’s exactly as historically accurate as the other one.

[@leaderofthelewishpeople6382]

god that new apartment building is ugly they couldve atleast designed the building in the same style as the houses on the alley

[@davidty2006]

Hmmm even just Externally it wouldn't be too difficult.

[@jacksonlarson6099]

Does money poison your sense of taste? I just don't get it.

[@jameslongstaff2762]

In thinking about all those modifiers you put on elfreth's alley as being the oldest residential street, it made me think about other older places that don't quite fit all those modifiers. Like the Taos pueblo. It doesn't count because it's not a street, but it is the oldest structure people have lived in and continue to live in to this day.

[@jackthetrainspotter9727]

5:00 as someone from Britain, there are thousands of parks similar to that design across the island.

[@one_under_all]

your street recommendations looks so wonderful

[@EPMTUNES]

Awesome video. I love the tight focus on just a single piece of urbanism. I feel like you can go more into detail rather than just blanket statements

[@Redhand1949]

Thanks for this. I lived in Philly in the early 70s and, while in North Joisey now, have fond memories of it. I used to work at the Philadelphia Naval Shipyard (1971-74) as a reserve naval officer. How about a piece on "historic preservation" at PNSY? There is much to cover there, from 19th Cenury fabrication shops on Broad Street to the houses on "Admiral's row," and the former Naval Aviation Mustin Field, among other locations.

[@AndrewAMartin]

I worked on the Philly Navy Base for an internship in the early 90's, and it's changed a TON since then. Some of the buildings like the one I was in (Bldg 76) were just converted warehouses and not worth saving, but there were a few that were much older and nicer and worth keeping or restoring, like the fire station and the archives. Most of the base is a new "innovation zone" and there are many new corporate offices there, including the headquarters of Rite Aid Stores that used to be one block over from where I live now...

[@kennixox262]

I once owned a home in historic Charleston, SC. Putting in a wall oven that required an exterior vent, a small four inch vent took two months to be approved by the HPC. The house was old but the interior was mid to late 1980's construction.

[@nathanielthrush5581]

I think this was a pretty good video, and I think it highlighted how ‘historical preservation’ can hinder neighborhoods. But whenever I watch your videos abt Philly specifically, I sometimes feel like they mostly cover issues like this one that mainly focus in on center city, and obviously from a YIMBY perspective. Philadelphia is the poorest city above 1 million ppl in the US, and I think a video covering inequality between areas like center city and north Philly are warranted. And in doing a video like that, I think it’s paramount to talk about gentrification-a topic I’ve noticed a lot of ‘Urbanists’ like to ignore. I think a lot of ppl don’t like acknowledging the reality that developers aren’t exactly viewed favorably by poor, nonwhite communities-because most new construction im low income areas displaces the communities existed there previously. Much easier to basically ignore this contradiction and only talk abt cases in rich, white areas like old city where NIMBYism is pervasive.

[@eliasgorman829]

As a philly resident you're 100% spot on and I'd support that angle! Lots of good and needed mixed-use dev going on in philly...at the cost of displacing a lot of (arguably small but that's too callous for my liking) older communities that have done enough voluntary beautification that then becomes a large reason for the younger/richer demographics to look at said area favorably.

[@davidty2006]

over here in britain my town has done and is still doing conversions to old buildings. Though the traditional churches haven't been turned into apartments, more kept in use and opened up to the public as museums with cafe's and public spaces. Theres the Wesley chapel right bang in the center of town from the 1800's it was turned into a nightclub then abandoned for few decades, The roof caught fire a few years ago but despite that a plan went ahead to convert it into a hotel, just recently the side building was set on fire whilst work was going on though still the conversion will go ahead (even with a section of wall collapsing onto the nearby street). Even buildings in supposedly bad condition can still be converted and restored.

[@rossedwardmiller]

Whoa the fact that that tiny street isn’t ped-only is absurd.

[@somethingsomething404]

I feel like part of the reason they put highways on waterfronts is to park that land while it gains value, when the highway comes down that land is going to be super valuable

[@davidty2006]

It's a stupid thing to do in the first place...

[@Roxor128]

You give these people's intelligence _way_ too much credit! I'd wager it's more like "It's just some grimy old industrial stuff that's been closed for years." or more sinisterly "That area's Commie central. Bulldoze it.", because half this crap happened during the cold war.

[@knarf_on_a_bike]

Toronto thanks Jane Jacobs. Well, downtown Toronto does, anyway. The burbs are Stroad Hell just like the rest of North America.

[@kartos.]

"you might have to walk more" while SUV's don't belong in it, that mentality goes against everything for ADA compliance.

[@stevemiller7949]

Fabulous segment.🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂

[@oldunion]

Solution for vacant park in the meantime? Buy a few inexpensive bulk bags of eastern wildflower seeds, spread seeds under the cover of night. Wildflowers will grow in 2024

[@vitaliyzakharov6708]

I think you are barking at a wrong tree, though I agree with the general take and as a serial historic preservationist I absolutely hate a lot of the approaches that are peddled by the academic circles, particularly the idea that we can not “recreate” historic architecture and that it is super expensive. As a hands on preservationist, it’s obvious that it is completely wrong. Its not particularly difficult or expensive, but traditional construction methods have been pushed into this bespoke and super elite niche. The plaza render with the modern wavy canopy garden is fucking vile(just as anything(no exceptions) built after 1930s), but a more appropriate english style garden or just a basic little square with brick pavers does not cost too much in actual labor and materials. Of course it becomes very expensive due to lengthy review processes and need for credentialed academic bozos(that do not know which way to hold a trowel) I also can explain the strong language from the local preservation people. Even if a developer commits to building something correctly, you really need to watch them like a hawk. Look away and you will have a “brick” wall made out of cement board and brick appliqués. In summary, the problem is not with historical preservation per se, but with the fact that it has painted itself into a very expensive and niche corner

[@PeruvianPotato]

Exactly. While I have slightly different perspectives in architecture, I can at least say that the proposed park's design just clashes horribly and didn't even look that appealing in the first place.

[@SterbenCyrodill]

Just wanna see that as someone who visited Philly for the first time this year, I refused to stand in line for the Liberty Bell and didn't have any Cheesesteak. Thank you!

[@kevinconrad6156]

I had my cheese steak atreeding terminal, it was good

[@Ricky_B_2453]

Top video Alan,👍 hope your Thanksgiving went well! Totally agree with 'don't let perfection be the event of good, I bet the people living there really enjoy their 'park'

[@alixbechard-demers5768]

Ekster! 😅 Keep it up Alan. We need more rail advocacy...

[@BalaenicepsRex3]

That thing with the church felt like a horror story! The tragic irony of nimbyism...

[@jpe1]

Come on, are you serious? It was a not very old church that was falling apart. There’s a bazillion churches all over Pennsylvania from that time period, they don’t all have to be immaculately preserved.

[@wce261md8]

Looking good 👍, Dave. I still have the boxcar you gave me. It looks good on the layout.

[@deriansilva368]

So often people won’t “settle” and just lose the whole thing all together. It’s baby steps till you build the momentum to break through.

[@Carchanofficial]

Another great video

[@TheVincentKyle]

I lived on Elfreth's Alley for almost a decade. So two things: 1) *NEVER* did I believe what I was told about the flagpole park being converted into a new park by the developers of The National. That being said, no one told me it was the society (made up not exclusively of alley residents) who nixed the deal - I always assumed the goal was to provide a patch of dirt for the new suburban transplants to curb their dogs and call it a day. Thanks for the info. 2) 5:35 - I understand cars may not be authentic or aesthetic, but if you’re against the overuse of “historical preservation” then please allow me to contextualize: these are real homes with real people living in them, and they very often need to drive their cars up to do things like unload groceries. Tourists or general traffic NEVER came down the alley; in fact I very frequently got dirty looks from tourists who assumed that's what I was (because people still had trouble believing it was just another residential street, even though my neighbor's backyard had a Nerf basketball hoop and we literally frequently let tourists into the house).

[@dayglodoggy]

One of the cars in the alley in the video has jersey tags...

[@TheVincentKyle]

@@dayglodoggy Philly residents frequently have cars registered in Jersey for tax purposes if they're business owners -- or it could just be a delivery. I mean you could jump to a conclusion that supports an unfounded theory, or you could trust the guy who literally lived there a decade and still lives a block away now, your call.

[@dayglodoggy]

@@TheVincentKyle I also lived in philly for a decade. "tax purposes" is a nice spin on tax evasion.

[@TheVincentKyle]

@@dayglodoggy Oh I don't disagree! 😄 I never said I *approve* of the practice, only that I'm well aware of it. Pay your share and stop whining all the way to Florida and Arizona, you entitled schmucks.

[@ednorton47]

I wouldn't be too keen on flashing cards in the type of cities that you visit.

[@GnosticElohim]

No dam way I was standing in that line for hour's in the summer heat when I could just look at the bell right there with no obstruction.

[@martinwalters770]

I lived at 5th and Lombard for years & still miss walking the neighborhoods & the farmers market at the shambles ❤

[@BullMuscleAg]

I appreciate the take here, Alan. It's the same line of thinking you had in your "Nationalize the Rail" video. You state that while nationalizing is your preference, you recommend a slew of other ideas that could stand to improve the shoddy state of American rail if the US doesn't wish to go down the nationalization path. As an engineer I deal with these sorts of compromises all the time, and it bleeds all too often into a pareto principle moment where so much time, money, and effort is wasted trying to make something 100% perfect to the point where the project gets delayed or worse, cancelled altogether.

[@tjjones33]

the US really fucked up the vibe of basically every city

[@Willitbl3nd]

"Any serious world-class city does not allocate its waterfront land for ugly highway infrastructure." Seoul, South Korea is also bad on this...

[@larrypicard8802]

This almost happened in Baltimore but was stopped.

[@jbirzer]

Good timing, since I'll be in Philly next weekend. When I last went to Philly a couple of years ago, my friend wanted to do a cheesesteak tour. So, he actually researched what was good vs what was touristy. We got a good variety. Yes, I did run up the art museum steps. But, that was mixed in with a run on the Schuylkill trail.

[@Kodeb8]

Historic preservation is a double-edged sword. It saved old walkable neighborhoods from being torn down, but it also prevents improvements to the neighborhood.

[@davidty2006]

Not always. Here in britain it's reasonably open to converting old historical buildings for other uses. Normally atleast keeping exterior intact. Theres a old chapel converted into a nightclub thats being converted again into a hotel after catching fire, sadly it's side building has also caught fire from arson but work is continueing and with it being an 1800's building it's strong as f structurally.

[@hamilpatel4025]

I just moved to outside Philly from NJ. Yes, please make a video of places to visit!

[@moosesandmeese969]

Delete I95 gang here

[@realityblooms]

You hit the nail on the head. This is also one of the many factors of why there’s barely any dense, home structures in in San Francisco. So many of the streets are designated historical, and purely for the reason to not let anyone else move in. I live by this, Alley the highway noise is unbearable. To get there from my area in fishtown, I have to walk a very wide dangerous road 2nd Street. It’s crazy that cars can drive through this Alley but somehow a park was too modern for them.

[@PhilliesNostalgia]

Well hey, there would be no 95 if New Jersey hadn’t raised it’s drinking age decades ago. It would have stayed on the Turnpike. Was some other highway going to be built in its place? It’s possible

[@marial8235]

It really is a tricky balance between the concerns of the varying of state, local and private property. I generally favor keeping as much historical character as possible with contemporary standards of safety and comfort in mind.

[@cogerle]

Used your Quince street recommendation this summer!

[@patrickcameron2950]

I've been to Philly a couple of times and would love a video of your recommended places.

[@Modeltnick]

I grew up in the Philadelphia area and always thought that Elfreths Alley was closed off to vehicle traffic by bollards on each end. Did that change? Also, the residents were very protective of their privacy at one time.

[@golira19]

as a long islander that last line really hit home

[@jonathanstensberg]

Re: Church Preservation Most old cities in the United States host magnificent religious buildings. Almost all of them were built by 1930s, meaning they average 100+ years old at this point. Due to waves of inner city depopulation, poverty, and disaffiliation, many of these churches are operated by congregations than cannot keep up with basic maintenance costs. In many cases, the church ultimately closes because it becomes structurally unsafe, with repair costs estimated at several million dollars. At this point, adaptive reuse is often prohibitively expensive, with only the most charitably-minded developers willing to commit their time and capital to such a low-return project. Tack on years of legal wrangling and historic preservation committe hearings, further deterioration of the structure and basic inflation makes most of these projects unviable. In the end, the historic, architectural, and community treasure gets torn down, just like St Laurentius and many other churches in Philadelphia over the past few decades. The main problem is that we really only care about historic preservation when something is on the brink of destruction. That means we're trying to preserve things at the moment they have become the most expensive to preserve. If you want these churches to be around in the future--even in the form of adaptive reuse--we have to find ways of preserving the structures while they in their original religious use. If Europe can figure out how to preserve centuries-old churches (the little ones too, not just the cathedrals), we can figure out how to do it here too.

[@PaulFisher]

Similarly, the residents of Beacon Hill in Boston raised a whole stink about installing curb cuts with the tactile pavement grid at crosswalks due to ~historic preservation~. Also the streets are full of BMWs and Audis,

[@aceboogisback9946]

The key takeaway is that these highways weren't built for people in those neighborhoods or even anywhere within the city proper. They were built for suburbanites rapidly leaving the cities but held jobs there. Now that gentrification is on overdrive in most American cities, tearing down the highways to make the urban environments beautiful again is fashionable...and is happening already with green spaces. Once the locals have been completely uprooted, improving/building rail and public schools will also become important again!